I've been married twice. to a woman for over a decade and we co-parent our now teenage daughter and we live next door to each other my second marriage was to a man but that marriage also ended in divorce just after four years After my second marriage ended, I made sense out of what first felt like a failure. I think by intellectualizing marriage and monogamy as some kind of simply unnatural. state and marriage as a social construct that benefits society by increasing generational wealth. Yeah.
I know. I began to rationalize my way out of any desire for a long term partnership. But then one night I went out dancing, all alone and quite happily so. another person there also alone, quite happily so. And we danced and talked all evening. That was two years ago and we have been friends, lovers, companions in so many amazing ways since. For the first year of our friendship, we dated other people. Now for the last nine months or so, I have not dated anyone else but him.
So here we are, two people committed to non-monogamy and yet, at least for now, monogamous. We both intellectualize a lot and are rather public people in our communities. clergy person in a Christian church. So you can imagine that the expectations of me and my relationship status, especially as a female clergy person in the southern U.S., are quite... Big. And so we keep our relationship really private.
It feels safe there. And yet part of me is wondering what I'm so fearful of. Am I missing out on some benefit of monogamy or at least a relationship that's not so separate from the rest of my life? And I'm deeply curious if I have abandoned on some level my wants and desires out of fear. This week on Net Worth and Chill, we're tackling the uncertain economic times we are all living in and how you can recession-proof your finances.
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regardless of market conditions. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash yourrichbff. Scientists find weird kinds of life all the time. And normally they can run experiments. If I hypothesize, life can live in bleach. Well, I can get bleach and see if life lives in it. But what if the weird thing about the life they find is that it lives for millions of years?
Time. I don't have any control over that. I can literally do nothing with time. This week on Unexplainable, intraterrestrials. Aliens on Earth, deep beneath the seafloor. Follow Unexplainable for new episodes every Wednesday. Hello. Hi. Are these all questions or are some of these statements with a question mark? My curiosity when it's free and open is like, I wonder what will happen next.
And then when I am afraid or I'm feeling like there's some sort of scarcity or urgency, I become judgmental. And my question is more like, I wonder what will happen next. And so sometimes those statements are statements and sometimes they're questions. Right. So... I was wondering, why now? Why did you reach out to me now? Because the questions are not new, or the statements. What led you to us here today?
I think it's an intersection of what you're exploring in your podcast and what I'm exploring in my life. And I was like, oh, I wonder if there is. a part of what I'm curious about that you could help with, to be honest. That's part of it. And that part is, if you had to describe it. The part of me that. is wondering if I'm missing something? Am I ignoring a part of myself, what I want, what I need. That's a big part of it is just the doubt.
If you were avoiding something, what would you be avoiding? If this is all one big protection strategy, what are you protecting? Because then the questions are not about monogamy, plurality, transparency. And the question is really What's the fear that lives inside of me? not new, that has probably accompanied me in marriage one, marriage two, and every other relationship in between. And so our conversation today is about that, that specific.
Fear that has the ability to take your openness, your curiosity, and your thirst for life, and your confidence, and turn it on its head. I think it is a deep fear that You smiled in recognition, by the way. Yeah, that smile that says, between you and you, that says, I know me. And it's such a simple knowing, but it's so painful. And I think it's that I'm not enough. Others, I'm not enough in the world. I go back and forth between being too much.
and not being enough. I have this part that's telling me constantly I'm too big, I'm too much. Too much what? Arrogant. confident, outspoken, all of the things that tend to produce some rejection in society. For me as a female in the South, there is, I think, a lot of cultural judgment of the way I approach life. And then there's this other part that never has felt like enough to keep the connection with another person in a consistent, confident way. And that leads to?
I'm not sure. I think a lot. I think it leads to lack of confidence, self-doubt. Shifting myself and my wants to meet the needs of others to denying my own needs because my needs are going to go into the too much category. So if I can just be. easy and giving, then other people will want to be connected to me because I'm in the posture of helper or giver. social work and clergy life that keeps my connection because I have value there. But somehow if I'm honest about my needs and want.
I'm going to overwhelm people and not be able to remain connected. I keep finding myself in the same... place where either I choose to be connected to people who don't really want to meet my needs they might want to be needed but they don't want to actually meet my needs or be in a supportive position or I stop speaking my needs before I even find out if they're capable or want to be in that relationship with me.
And when you, I'm asking you questions just because we just met. Yes. But you have met yourself and you say, I have met. This part of me that says, you're too much, and the part of me that says, you're not enough, I know them both very well, and I know them for a long time. So let me meet them a little bit more.
Let me also ask when you say, when I meet someone, when you meet someone in your congregation, when you meet someone as a friend, when you meet someone as a lover or potential partner, is there a difference? between the way these parts live in the world and the type of relationship that we're talking about. I think in a professional role, I have such a protective... persona of professional and it's a one-way street.
It's not mutual. And I mean, it is on a very deep level, but I can still present as the giver. And I think sometimes the expert. And do you sometimes find yourself... In that situation where you say, why do all of them know who to turn to and I'm there for them and I have no one that I can turn to like they do with me who would do for me what I do for them? Yeah. That is a story that is repeated often. Another reason I reached out I think now is I'm 50.
I think there is a scarcity mindset on some level about am I going to have what I need in these next years? And there is just this. story this part that tells me the story you're going to end up alone you're going to die alone you're going to spend your whole life taking care of other people and then in the end while I have such good friends and and I have so many connections there is a
fear that nobody has to be there for me. Everybody that I'm in relationship with has another partner. And so I'm not the most important thing to anyone. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. If you've ever dreamt of starting a business, it usually starts with a good product. An often overlooked element is actually the business behind the business that makes selling easy.
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Babbel is gifting you 60% off subscriptions at babbel.com slash esther. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash esther. B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Esther. Babbel dot com slash Esther. Rules and restrictions may apply. Take me back. Take me back a little bit because the beauty of what you're saying is I'm afraid. It's a fear. You're not telling me nobody's there for me. They are there and nevertheless, I'm still afraid.
I'm still afraid that I will have resent the fact that I gave to everyone, that I was... Not just that I gave to everyone, but that in the moments of need that people come to me, I am the most important one. That there is something about meeting people at their most vulnerable that makes me very, very important. And that is true for therapists, for clergy, for medical professionals. I mean, and it's often a kind of importance that is hard to replicate.
in other relationships, in other parts of one's life. Who wants you as much as Someone who comes in a dire situation to speak with their clergy. I mean, you are it. And if the I am it, I'm that most important person you turn to, is... the level at which you feel safe of not being alone. Finish the sentence. How can that ever exist in a mutual relationship where... I'm not the expert and I'm not the crisis counselor and I'm not the clergy. I'm just one real human. with another real human.
And how do I find a way to make this actually a state of respite and relief rather than a state of deprivation and fear? preach. You're the preacher. So tell me, when did you first meet too much and not enough? How did they become such big parts of you? I think I've always known them. I think over the last 14 years, I've befriended them, but I've always known them. So as a child, I lived in a home where...
From the outside, it looked very stable and on some level it definitely was. And on the deeper level, I have a sibling who has severe mental illness. and was acting out a lot. And then another sibling that was gone. And I'm six years younger than both of them. And so I was little, I was in my house where there was a lot of chaos. And the one person I really felt connected to was my father.
But he was a businessman and he traveled constantly and would be gone for three, four weeks at a time. And I would never know when he was leaving. Or when he was coming back because I was little and they just didn't talk about that. So I have memories of waking up and seeing his bags at the doorway and just being like, oh, God. knowing that when he left, I was alone because...
My mom didn't really have the capacity to deal with my sibling, and it was just chaos. Lots of fighting. But then when my dad was home, he would... ground things and I would feel safe again. But it was inconsistent and unpredictable. And I think that I just kind of hid out. But yet I was really responsible from a young age. to be kind of the emotional lightning rod. So I think it was... really difficult to have that part of me, that helper.
part to be overdeveloped at such a young age. And so then when I went out into the world with this kind of overdeveloped sense of, I don't know, helper maturity, there was a pushback. And I was often rejected for being overly confident or arrogant or all of these words that got, I think, thrown at me from a young age. Bye. peers, but also teachers and then people in charge of institutions that I worked in or people in authority. So I, I had this.
childhood where I didn't have a consistent connection. And I think part of me feels like it's because I wasn't enough to keep the consistent connection. I wasn't enough. And then I was also too much in the world often or seen as that and critiqued as that. What do you mean when you say to stay home for? I think there's a part of me that thinks if my dad had known how much I needed him there, if I'd been enough for him to take care of, he wouldn't have kept leaving.
So you personalized his leaving? I think so. I think, yeah, I think as a young person I did. How old is she? Oh, little six. Maybe even younger, but definitely around six. Yeah, I had in mind five, six, yeah. And I also had... When I was six years old, my doctor told my parents that I was overweight and they put me on a diet at six where all of my food was weighed. And I could only eat what was weighed. But everybody else in my family could have whatever they wanted.
But it's six. Wow. For how long? Oh, until I was probably, I mean, I'm not sure how long the weighing of the food took place, but then I had to like go to Weight Watchers and weigh in public. And until I was probably 15, 16. So talk about being too much. Yeah. I just thought of that too. Did you stop on your own? Oh, no, I think I...
stopped eating so much and lost a bunch of weight. And then they were like, oh, it's great. She's fine now. When I'm stressed, my appetite goes away, right? So I stopped needing much of anything. You know, everything was very controlled. My needs didn't dictate what I was given. It was literally weighed. And that's what I got. So I think the combination of all of that, like these young parts of me that believe my needs have to be controlled and weighed in order to be fed.
Do you communicate with that young part of you, you know, like many five-year-olds personalized? If my parents divorce, it's because of me. If my father travels or if he really cared if I was more, he would not travel rather than whatever the circumstances of his life. At five, six, we do put ourselves at the center of the universe. It's actually developed mentally. What's more troubling is when that five-year-old still runs the show and when it still looks that...
You live with this feeling that people are weighing your food, your emotional food, maybe not your... physical food, your material food, but your emotional food and that it's decided by the outside and that you always have a tenuous relationship to your own needs. And that you actually on some level, since you didn't really get to learn what they were on some level because somebody else was applying metrics to it.
So you're left with a certain uncertainty about what's too little, what's too much, what's fair, what's not fair, what do I deserve, what do I not deserve, what can I ask for, what should I not have to ask for that other people should just give me. this whole dance, right? So how do I interact with that part? Let her know that you are not five anymore.
Right? It's like, and that, yes, there is something about being intensely needed that makes me feel less afraid that I will be alone because if people need me, they come. artificial in some way in the level of importance that one has, certainly as a clergy, as a person who accompanies people at the most extreme situations and moments of their life. So I am... so central, so much a bearer of meaning and ritual and grief.
All of that. So outside of that realm, it often feels challenging. Like, so then who am I when I'm not this? What's my value? Who am I? What would people come to me for? And so a part of me absolutely wants people to come to me in those moments. And then a part of me feels that. But they don't come for small things. Come for something simple for a change. I mean, I'm fantasizing about you. I'm riffing out loud. You tell me if it's hot or cold. No, it's...
Absolutely true. I think there's security in being needed and a lot of insecurity in needing for me for that part. Gets the keys to the bus, so to speak. When... I am in mutual relationships that don't have. Yeah. When I'm not in this role, I am secure when I'm needed. I am insecure when I need. Yep. This is the organizing line of our conversation. Yes. I am insecure when I have any need.
And I am also insecure when you don't need me in such an acute way. Like, can I be like... just for who I am rather than for what I provide. That one touched you. I think within every relationship I've had, there comes a point where I've asked that question, does this person love me for who I am or for what I do for them? And I've never trusted. No matter what they say. I've never really trusted that they love me and want me and want to be connected to me because of just who I am.
who I am, it almost feels like a reverb. Like, I don't even know what that means. Part of me is like, what does that mean who you are? If I'm not helping you, saving you, advising you, ministering to you. Do you enjoy my company? Do you value my presence? Do you seek me out? to have fun, to explore, to talk, to create deep connection. But that is not based on my being the deliverer of help. What other transactions exist between me and my partner?
that is not rooted in that structure. I think the question is really, really good. And it's less a question about them. Would they like me if they didn't need me or if I wasn't helping them is not a question they have. That's why you say, even when, regardless of what they tell me, I don't believe them. Because a part of me is... deeply attached to being needed.
And part of why you're here today is to say, what else is out there for me? What am I missing? What am I missing? This is the key. So now I'm with this new person. How would he respond if I actually didn't position myself as the expert, as vice, helper, rescuer, but just... in a more mutual, as you say, more reciprocal. Because it's not about flipping it. It's not about me becoming... It's really mutual, reciprocal, open ended.
Yeah, I don't know. What have you tried so far? You've two years with him. Yeah, a little more than that now. I'm trying, this is something we've talked about, is I'm trying to state what I need clearly. Because sometimes I think I've said a need, but it's not clear. To whom? Well, I think probably wouldn't be clear to most people because the way I'll state it is so like...
Convoluted, yes. And avoidant, you know, I'm so avoidant with my, well, I'm not always, but I have a comfort with being ambiguous about my needs because then they won't be too much. And so if I don't catch it and if I didn't hear it, you didn't really make it so obvious so that you don't have to be disappointed that you asked for something and it was refused. So you ask it in such a convoluted way that if I miss it, we can pretend it never happened. That's right. So now let's do the exercise.
Give me 10 things you need. Five. Let's do it. I'll be gentle. Thank you. Give me five things. Five things I need. Yeah. But the point is not about what you need. This is not in the what. healthy sense of entitlement to just ask. and not put myself and turn myself into such a pretzel who is on the one hand uncomfortable, on the other hand angry that you even have to, and then...
confused about it and then tense about it and then fearful about it. And it's wrapped in so many things that it's usually not surprising that the question didn't come out. Simple and clear. So we don't have a relationship. So you can just practice with me. we have an ad hoc momentary intimacy here and I'm just saying give me five things you would like you enjoy you need you long for you aspire to And breathe each time you say them. This is about embodying them and about being at ease.
Because there's nothing I can do. I'm just a stranger we met, you met, and I don't come with history. I'm all ears. I need to be seen. Now take a deep breath. And say it again. And you'll stop when you've said it with ease and calm. I need to be seen. You need to be seen. I need to be seen. Tell me again. I need to be seen. Loosen your jaw. Just loosen your jaw. Because you're holding it all right at the jaw. You can literally take your hands and just loosen it.
And then tell me again. I need to be seen. Yes, much better. I need to be seen. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Esther's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. Support for Where Should We Begin? comes from OpenPhone. In today's world, good communication is everything. And that's especially true if you're running a business.
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Hooters. Hooters has now filed for bankruptcy, but they say they are not going anywhere. Last year, Hooters closed dozens of restaurants because of rising food and labor costs. Hooters is shifting away from its iconic skimpy waitress outfits and bikini days instead.
opting for a family-friendly vibe. They're vowing to improve the food and ingredients, and staff is now being urged to greet women first when groups arrive. Maybe in April of 2025, you're thinking, good riddance? Does the world still really need this? chain of restaurants. But then we were surprised to learn of who exactly was mourning the potential loss of Hooters. Straight guys who like chicken, sure. But also a bunch of... that is, won't you?
And what else do you need? Want? Like? I need to be fed. And feed myself. I need to be cared for. And I don't even really know what that means when I say it. But it just feels like a deep, like I need to and want to be cared for. Oh, you do know what it means because you care for a ton of people. It means you think of them. You hold them in your thoughts. You hold them, really. You touch them. You reach out to them. So this just came to me. I need to allow myself to be cared for. Nice. Yeah.
Say that one again. I need to allow myself to be cared for. So close your eyes for a moment and just feel it. Where does this allowance to be cared for start in your body? Where does it begin? It feels like an expansiveness in my lower gut, like an opening. Put your hands there and just breathe right in. so that you feel that expansion, physically feel it, sense it. Nothing like the membrane of your gut expanding, tightening, blowing open and pressing against your hand.
It's exactly where you probably held the bottom of your child when you were holding them. Yeah. And when you open the bottom of the gut, it opens the chest. And when you open the chest, it opens your shoulder. And when you open your shoulders, it lifts your neck and it loosens your jaw. And you are allowing yourself to be cared for. You're making space. for wants, for pleasures, for what other people can give to you.
You're surrounded by people who actually want to give to you. That is not your issue. Okay, we've established that. You're not alone. It's can I allow myself to let them. because when they do, then it makes me more vulnerable because it puts me in touch with those needs and it puts me in touch with the fear that today they're here, but tomorrow they could not be here. Welcome to life. Yeah. Who doesn't have that feeling? When you love, you live with the fear of love.
That's fact. They can die, they can get sick, they can leave. The moment you get close... you live with the fear of what it would be to lose them. Everyone does. That's existential. That's not just psychological. The degree with which you live with that fear to the point where it doesn't allow you. to let people in at a level that you would like, that's psychological, that's historic.
The existence of the fear itself is normal. It's real. But if you close yourself and you don't allow that expansion inside that says, come in. The fear of losing the people we love is a fear everyone knows and experiences. But the... My self-protective part that keeps the connection from deepening by allowing people to care for me is one that I learned. It feels both heavy, like... I've spent a lot of time protecting myself. And that makes sense. And there are consequences to that.
And I also am aware that if I learned it, I can continue to unlearn that behavior. Can we do one more that I need? Yeah, sure. Let's see. I need to be vulnerable and The word weak is coming to my mind that have such negative connotations, but I really mean it in a sense, like a body way. Like I need to be... able to show up in moments more fragile or weak. Yeah, just that. I need to be able to experience fragility to be present in a fragile way.
Yeah. Fragile, weaker, vulnerable, as opposed to knowing all, in charge. too much, arrogant, that whole other. Yes, beautiful. I need to be allowed to not know. to be afraid, to be unsure, to be fragile, without any negativity associated to all of it. Hungry. Nice. And I need to be able to be needy of. Yep. the things that sustain me, all of the other things we listed, really fall under this just I need to be able to be needy. So I have a little suggestion for you.
Can you think of two or three people? that you could go to and say, this woman I talked to made me do this whole thing. And then she said, I'd like you to ask a few people who know you well. How am I doing in this department? Of showing up needy, vulnerable? Yeah, vulnerable, need to be fed, need to be held, need to be seen. You know, do you even know that I have those needs?
Have I ever even articulated some of these things in ways that I'm not aware of? It comes out anyway. Or does it look like I'm always, you know... well put together, all in charge, and God would never know that I have any of this living inside of me. And she wanted me to do a little survey. fact-checking about what's the relationship between what lives inside of me and what lives between me and you.
Could be your ex-wife with whom you co-parent and are on good terms. Could be your current partner. Could be a good friend. You don't have to make it a whole session, but just, you know, I want to do a little pulse check. Could that be? Yeah, definitely. Thank you. Is this a good place to stop? Yes. Thank you, Esther. Very good. Yes. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from Two Points somewhere in the world.
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel. and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.