Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?

Hi, Estare. I'm 41 years old and I'm calling with a personally heart-wrenching case of should I stay or should I go? In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years, he and I met. And went into it very casually. that he is married and that he and his wife were are no longer sexual or romantic in that way, but they are living together, share a bed, they co-parent an eight-year-old boy just like I do with my

with whom I do not share a bad. And she is very open and encouraging of all of this. And never in one million years would I have Making I'm not sure. into this kind of a dynamic. But this gentleman and I have very strong feelings for each other, and he and I go on dates every week to two weeks. And they're absolutely incredible. from our chemistry as friends and humans, not to mention that I'm having the best sex of my life, like full stop.

And he is emotionally secure and available to me in a way that I've frankly never had in 41 years. I also have been stuck in these endless questions all the time because there's a big part of me that does love. being single. Like when I first got divorced, I'll never forget that feeling of I can do what I want. I can be who I want to be. And yet

I crave that idea of stability in marriage again. And it's this constant push and pull. And I don't even know if I would want to be married to him. And yet it does not. prevent some real pain. Some real that I feel around feeling like just jealous, you know? and his wife or partner who is lovely. I would just so so appreciate and love the chance to talk through this with you. So thank you so much for listening. IKEA presenterar Ljud av förändring. Då finns vi där.

Välkommen till IKEA. Tänk till exempel att ligga med benen i högläge hjälper lite, jos oliksfallsförsäkring hjälper mycket. I think what's very strange to me about all of this that I mentioned is that I would never have imagined myself. getting sort of entangled in something like this. Like I've always when I've been on the apps and seen these ethically non monogamous people, you know, like I always don't swipe on those people because it seems complicated.

And something I don't want to get caught up in. And he did not list himself that way, but he was very honest when we met. And They're not sexual, right? So he's sexually monogamous with me. And that has been how my brain has been able to sort of make this work, right? Meaning how tell me how you put the puzzle together. So I feel like there's something special that we have together and I realize that that could very much be the case with or without.

him having sex with other people, but it protects some element of it for me where I feel like he is committed to me, you know. And Sometimes I think it's so silly because he's also married and he's sleeping in the same bed with his wife. But they are not sexual. So he has family monogamy with her and sexual monogamy with you. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. And it's tied up in a lot. It's tied up in like

I think jealous, there's a just a raw jealousy that I think a lot of people in these relationships with multiple parties happens to them. But then there's also this But your jealousy is about the monogamy of his family, that they come first, that you cannot enter into that space, that tell me a little bit what the arrangement is so far and What is the jealousy? Because it can be about the something very precise, right?

So I very much relate to his family coming first. So I also have an eight year old and divorced and it's funny because the last person I dated didn't have children. And he totally did not understand. Like, my kid comes above all else. So that I very much relate to. I get jealous. Thinking of them sleeping in the same bed, he and his wife. Okay. So that's the piece. Yeah. And also their general family life, because I don't have it.

And it's not that I don't have it with him, but it's that I don't have it, you know. Um so yeah. So when I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have. Yeah. No, nothing to apologize for. That part is very raw for me. And this whole side that is there and gets tied up in what is really a beautiful thing in many ways. What is your arrangement with the father of your child?

We are good friends, actually. We were friends for many years, and then we got married, had a child, and very quickly had our first fight that. became the reason we got divorced. Which was? You made that one fight stand out so special that I couldn't resist being curious about. It was over sleep training with our son and it was something very small, but

I realized I had never sort of stood ground and had been contorting myself, honestly, to prevent any and all conflict in our relationship. You know, there had never been conflict. and I sort of just stood my ground and there was a complete unraveling and he wanted a divorce. And it was so crazy, but we both instantly flipped into We're putting our son first and Thankfully, my ex-husband had the context of his parents having divorced when he was young and did a really good job of.

putting him first. Um it's very fluid. Like our son has never known anything different. And I'm very proud of that. Um But it's also another one of these things where I do like spending Christmas with my son and his dad. And sometimes when I play out this idea, well, what if I were with somebody full time monogamous again, that would be hard, right? Or I mean some people might not like that.

Would it be fair to say when I am with the father of my child and my son, and we are in family mode, there is no jealousy. When I'm alone, then I'm start to think about the family that my partner has, and then I start to think that is what I miss. Because in fact you do have a family life. I I don't feel that because there is some Suppressed like emotional pain around my divorce that I just don't surface and

Yeah, I I feel like it's other people's intimacy is just hard for me because I'm not intimate with anybody. So. I'm sorry, I just th tears just boom. Let them flow. Let them flow. Let them stream down. I'm not intimate with anybody. Yeah.

Yeah, I have a very small, like extended family where my dad, I'm estranged from my dad, which was a complicated. Um situation. It was emotionally abusive to our family. My sister and I growing up and um have a good relationship with my mom, but it has its limits. Both daughters are estranged from him? For how long? S eight years s right before my son was born, right after I got married. That was a pretty crazy year, but he

he basically blew up our lives. He and my mom had been married for forty years and he came home one day and said, I want a divorce and he emptied out their bank accounts and left her with nothing. We found out he'd been doing all these horrible things, leading a double life basically. Um And in hindsight I think he was really kind of a sociopath. I don't think he had empathy. Um and I spent my whole life trying to get his approval. You know, it was very much the perfect type A child.

Um and my sister was the older rebellious one who he treated worse, you know, but he played us off each other. It was Just are really tough. childhood. I mean not as tough as a lot of people's, but unpacking it as an adult, it um was very eye opening to me. I learned like I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple of years ago and I was like, no. I thought I was over all that. It's here. If you're

What do you call him? Partner, boyfriend, lover? Lover. We call each other lovers. Okay. If your lover heard you say, I am not intimate with anyone, how would he? Respond. Because you're right, I am intimate with him. He's the only person that I really am intimate with. Beyond sexuality. He's the first man that I've ever had difficult feelings around that has been able to sustain it where

It hasn't blown up because I had a meltdown or challenged something that was going on or made things difficult. For example. Well this situation has been very hard for me. Like grappling with these feelings of jealousy. um with his wife and I feel like I will have these sort of outbursts, you know, and I don't necessarily get angry, but I I do unravel and I'm like, I can't handle this. And sometimes I do contort it into something, like, you don't even want me anyway. And

you know, just blow up and I assume that it's gone and he's gone. Because that's how it's gone in my relationships. And I'm very conscious of that with men in my life and he just keeps coming back for more like a golden retriever. He's just there, you know, and he's like That must be so hard. And so it makes it like in many ways so wonderful, right? Um I feel like it's so good for me to be with somebody that Allows me to experience jealousy. Yeah.

Yes. Even envy, because one is for what we had and have lost, and the other one is for what we've never had. Or not never, but what we don't have. but also experience the insecurity that it's not what you have. It's how it instantly connects to what I feel I don't have. And so because I don't have one thing, I experience it as, well, then I better have nothing. Mm-hmm. Because if I can turn it into I'll be the one to set this up to end, then at least I feel a little bit more in control.

I don't feel in control over the relationship as it is, but I can be in control over the dissolution of the relationship. And he doesn't let you play with it. Okay. And you have fixated on they share a bed, they share a bed, they share a bed. And that becomes that image that you interpret as they have intimacy, they have something I don't have.

You can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together. Talk to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them. You're telling me who he is for you. I don't know much about her. I don't know if your children have ever met. I don't know if this is a a marriage also not just of a marriage a coming together more accurately. Of of two people or of two units.

What is the arrangement? What is your relational arrangement at this point? And is it a by default or is it actually by design? So There was no no crossing for quite a while. You know, we met quite casually through this app and I don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed. And he presented himself as as married and described a situation that is he and his wife are wonderful partners and very good friends. they lost the sexual spark at some point and

decided to stay together and co-parent and raise their child in their home. And both of them have a separate erotic life. She didn't for some time, it sounded like, but now she does. And I had not met her for a long time. And eventually she said she wanted to meet me. And so we had coffee together. Old three or old two? Just me and her. Mm-hmm. And I was like, if this is not progress against my anxious attachment style, I don't know what it is.

I I had this whole idea of her in my mind, you know. I've done this whole the ways that she's different than me and she's like the perfect homemaker and I'm not and you know all this stuff. and instantly was just disarmed by her. She's also totally warm and genuine and cool and I could see. ver that everything was very honestly she was like, This is so great like

He's in such a great mood all the time. Like he is crazy about you. We're so happy to have you in our lives. I went to their holiday party like a month or two ago, which was hard. But also one this other weird part of me is like, what if like I I was just a part of this fabric? Like maybe this did I mean, do I have this in me to be one of these crazy people?

I shouldn't say crazy people like securely attached people that can flex in relationships. Um And she was so happy to have me there, you know? So I don't you know, he doesn't talk about their relationship. I think he's very, you know, protective of that and I appreciate that. And I don't know what the future holds in store for them. But this like the jealousy, the raw jealousy and insecurity it brings out is so present.

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May I meet the part of you that speaks that's insecurity. How does it relate to you? How does it tell its story? How does it warn you? How does it turn opportunity into threat? Tell me what what it says and and what it is trying supposedly to preempt for you. Imagine it's sitting right next to you. So it's not inside of you, it's actually on the chair next to you. Jealousy. I don't know, do you have a name for it sometimes? I don't have a name for it.

The jealousy is so hard to pinpoint. Okay, so you enter into me And I feel under threat. I am in like fight or flight. Alright, hold on one moment, because you're still talking to me. Turn around and pick something, any object that you can place to represent jealousy. Just look on your shelves and then just bring it toward you. Like physically breaking? Yeah. Yeah, go get it. Alright, can you show me? Okay, it shows my Lego lucky cat. Alright. And the reason you represent my jealousy is because.

Anything any connection? No, it just felt like I just was drawn to it for some reason. We're gonna make it lucky. Okay. Maybe it'll be memorable that way. I thought m so like a I find need a You don't have to look at me, but I want you to talk to actually it's less you talking to the jealousy first. It's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you, how it feels you, what it does, what it tries to preempt for you what threats it predicts, what

Oh you know that part so well. I I'm thinking about it right now and if I'm talking to my jealousy right now it's Oh your jealousy is talking to you. The jealousy talks to me, yeah. What does it say? It's very mean. It's very mean. It tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one. And that I should get out while I'm ahead. But it also tells me that that's like very powerful. That's what I deserve. And that is heartbreaking. To me.

You know. Deserve as in you're not good enough to be. It it starts to attack and erode your sense of self-worth. Yes. And that is what I have been primed for, you know, like that was my dad's uncanny ability to come in any moment, I started to feel good about myself and take me down. Which honestly comes up for me, Esther. Like I think. This negative self talk, this like when I'm being really mean to myself, I can almost hear him.

And then I think I don't want to let him win, you know, like this is not serving me in any way. Who the hell do you think you are? That kind of a little bit. For some reason it's standing out to me right now, this thing he said to me one time. When I was a teenager, he told me I was the last person anyone ever wanted to see walk into a room. And I sometimes feel like I just walk around feeling like and I I'm such a otherwise intelligent person that I can conceptually understand so much.

You know, I mean, I I've I probably would win an award for the number of hours of Pima Chodron talks I've listened to. But don't ask me to practice self compassion, okay? It's like I... It's powerful. It's like feels it's in my body, you know? Mm-hmm. And so then you go, like, am I fighting something that I am never gonna beat or am I making it too hard for myself by trying to do this work.

So you know, I had a a wicked thought. May I just please share it with you?'Cause everything is kind of Mosh together. Are you still holding it in your hand? Jealousy? Good. Keep holding it. You see, in a model of plural love, primary or secondary doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning. Primary worth more, secondary worth less. It's not a rating system. It's an organizational structural idea.

With your dad, interestingly, you were number one. In fact your sister was number one. On the attack line. Your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good. You were his number one, both of you. And he was firing away. You know, estrangement is a is a drastic, radical decision, eight years. So we can't go into the details of that. But I yet it doesn't happen out of nothing. So you have been number one. Your idea of this fairy tale.

That the number one is an elevated state is actually not what has been your life experience. There is a way of thinking about relationships that is organized around exclusiveness. And then you demarcate what makes this relationship by what it doesn't allow, by what it doesn't allow in. It excludes the other stuff, and that's what defines And so then you are the only one. And then there's another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness, not exclusiveness, but specialness.

And in that one, you're never the only one necessarily, but whatever you are is special in its own way. So you go to this party and these people receive you. You may not like the arrangement. You may say I don't like complicated setups or multiple setups. That's design. And then you say that's not for me. But then it doesn't come from a place of self-loathing. Of being in this relationship is proof.

That I will not be claimed, that nobody will choose me as their first, as their one and only, and that it is because. I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room. So there's a kind of a a mixing of two stories here. One that was indeed exclusive. but vicious and one that is special but somehow activates this notion. that if I'm not the only one, if I'm not the primary one, it's not because we sa we have something else. that ties us together. It's because

You don't want to do that with me. Yes. Is that a fair description? It it really is. And it's a story that is not reflected really in The situation, you know, like I I mentioned this in my message that I don't even know if we would be right together as being married or that's not what I even fantasize about. Really. It it's weird. I mean, he would be a wonderful partner and husband. Absolutely. But It's more just this ambiguous here's a reason to feel bad.

But then I there's so many great things about it, like that I've mentioned to you from a emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through. And then also just the joy of developing Some intimacy with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life. And It's funny because I if I've tried to talk about this to some married friends, they'll be like, wow, that is

Ya you gotta get out of that. Like run, don't walk. Like you must be miserable half the time. And like this is the recipe for disaster. And then I'm like, well, how is marriage going? Because marriage is really hard too, you know? And you gotta get out of what? What is being reinforced? That indeed you're a side gig? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's how they frame it. And from the outside, I can kind of see that, but that is not how he makes me feel.

Or frankly how she makes me feel. His wife. I feel like they wanna bring me into their fold, you know? And he makes me feel very special. He is the first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable just like openly complimenting me in this way that is so disarming to me, you know, we'll just be kissing or something and I'll sit back and be like, you are so beautiful. And I don't know what to do with it. And I realized I wasn't getting that before from other people. And

Well what you do with that is first and foremost you savor it. Yeah. Then you decide how important is this? It's an important experience for me to have in a relationship. It doesn't define a decision.

Yes. Okay. My question to you is do you feel like you need to make a decision or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision? Because you started out by saying, you know, shall I stay or shall I go? And I'm listening to you telling me I'm caught between two stories, two ways to interpret my reality. In one version I experienced myself as Basically I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement. It is

An ethically non-monogamous or polyamorous arrangement. It's new. It does involve jealousy. By the way, that's okay. It is also part of the erotic charge that we have. There is a sense of where am I, where do I fit in, etc.? So the goal is not to avoid any jealousy, the goal is to learn to live with it. Yeah. The other narrative is I've been exclusive. I've actually been many times a number one and my main experiences around that have been not particularly kind.

Which doesn't mean that therefore an exclusive relationship is by itself compromised. But there are two narratives here. And my question to you is do you feel an urgency to make a decision, or do you feel that the people around you? are urging you to make a decision or that there is a sense that you're being naive, you're being credulous, you're gonna get hurt. What's the context? Who you know, wh wh where's the Greek chorus here? Yeah.

It's almost like it's these like, you know, every once in a while I will have a pretty significant meltdown around this. And Think I can't do this anymore. Like this is these feelings are too hard. And what's really funny is that. The small circle of people I've opened up to about this who were in monogamous relationships when I first went down this path were like Get out. And now

Multiple couples have opened up their marriages. And suddenly they're like, go get it, you're living the dream. It's like it's so Yeah, but they don't know the nightmare. And the nightmare is that by putting myself in a situation where I experience the need to prove myself, the need to make myself be more wanted.

the feeling that I am competing with another reality that is better than mine throws me right back into my relationship with my dad, in which I hear all this etched inside my body sentences of every time I try to What did you say? I win his love or be approved by him. It only made me feel worse about myself. Because the whole thing was predicated on it not being possible. He needed me to be one down. Yeah.

So I have s a relationship now that evokes that for me. Yeah, or they all do. They all do. Okay. So it doesn't even matter which boundary system you're living in or which identity system you're living in, this at some point the question of am I worthy? Will I be replaced? Would you notice if I need you? Would you be there if I need you? Can you take it if I am messy? You know?

I use this example, like my ex-boyfriend I dated for three years and I had he never was with me when I didn't have shaved legs. I told somebody that recently and they were like, What? But I'm like, that is something I learned from my mother and the way that my dad commented on our appearance, you know, my whole life to be to keep it together, you know. So what does messy mean? Afraid?

Afraid, like angry, like showing emotions that they don't want to hear that men don't want to hear. And you get angry when you're afraid? The more you're afraid they would leave, the more you kick them out. And you think that when I'm afraid I'm gonna scare them? They're gonna think I'm impossible to be with? Yeah. I'm thinking out loud. I need you to Yeah, that I you know get If I get angry or

you know, I felt like this gentleman that I'd been seeing, I introduced him to a friend of mine and I thought that they were being sort of flirtatious with each other. And I am super tuned into that and it actually makes me mental and I melted down about it, you know. And I thought this is the end'cause I don't get angry at men. Like I don't I've it's very difficult for me to conjure that. And so when I melted down about that, I thought, that's the end of that.

That's the end of that meaning he's not gonna wanna be with somebody who flares up like this, who loses her shit. Yeah. Who is so insecure, who sees the slightest thing and starts to turn it into a whole saga. Yeah. And that night I was so elevated like How bad does it get?

The jealousy thing, when I experience that, if I see flirtation. It's a green eyed monster. It is a monster. In in real life, if I see it, if I see flirtation, it is A monster and It's crazy, it feels like betrayal, it's threat, you know. And what does it say to you at that moment when it sees the flirtation? It is says you should be angry at this guy because he is not prioritizing you. And he. will, you know, fall at the first sign of female attention that he gets, you know.

And then And then what are you? You know? You're just like any other woman in the room to him. Also, like with it, it's like also fighting me. Like, why are you feel why are you doing this? Like you're thinking so small. Like some women would find it hot that their man could.

flirt like this and that other women were attracted to him and they would have fun with it. So not only are you w just like all these other women in the room, like you're worse because you can't roll with this and give'em a fucking break. Because he's a nice person and it's not intentional. Um but it feels like he's stabbing me in the heart. Like it is so raw, it's so powerful. But we need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's gonna be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree, and we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday. This week on Networth and Chill, it's my birthday and I'm turning 32.

So I'm sharing thirty-two life lessons I've learned that have actually changed my perspective. These aren't the picture perfect Instagram infographic versions. These are the real hard, uncomfortable truths about money. Career, relationships, and everything in between. I'll explain why choosing a rest day is non-negotiable, or your body will choose it for you, why you should never take advice from anyone you don't.

And why nobody is actually looking at you, so you should just go for it. Plus, I'm breaking down Always negotiate your salary, why individualism is making you broke, and yes, why you should try eating a popsicle in the shower after a bad day. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash your rich BFF. And is there a connection between the rawness? of feeling that bereft and enraged and how much you try to shave your legs at home.

How much you used femininity to call attention, how much you worked on appearance and appearance. And appearance as in pleasing Dad. Yes. And emulating mom or doing the opposite? I had my moments. It was weird because I I also was like a huge feminist when I was younger, thanks to my sister and

had all these I was very entrepreneurial and ambitious, which was not like my mom, it was more like my dad who was an entrepreneur. But The need for approval and how I reacted to men in authority position to me was. like the constant and I was very in tune with all the little how to please, how to seduce. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. And so When you see the flirting on the other side, you are competing with her? Yes, I'm competing with her and her being the other woman. Yeah.

And at the home y did you look down to your mum, as in She has no strength, no power, no seductive cachet. I can do better. I belong to the group of the people who are on top. I identify with the men. I'm the entrepreneur too. I can best them at their own game. Oh, that's an interesting thing. I It was very complicated because we felt so bad for my mom.

because he preyed on her too. But We didn't want to be like her. No. And he was always in my ear whispering that I was his favorite. Like was telling me that. And so the things he put down. I mean, she was a stay at home mom. So she was not gonna go out and learn languages and get a full ride to college and, you know, do all Which you did? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You know, that still was not enough. A shocker. Not not nothing will not that is it's not meant to ever reach the criteria. But you feel bad for mom. you notice the weakness of mom, her despondency, but you suddenly also know I don't wanna be like mom. I don't identify with mom. So I identify with him. And so I I internalize his voices inside of me, the good and the bad. And you know, you've done enough in inner work to know that um this is this is a cluster fire. Right.

A part of you then says I'm gonna best him at his game. I'm gonna become the best seductress, that's where the number one comes in. I'm gonna be better than all those other women because i to be a number one you need to compete against somebody. You don't compete against the man. The woman is the the pivot of this type of triangular

And they need to be women that are more powerful so that they keep pushing you to do more, more, more. And they need to be women who are weaker. This is the language of this kind of dynamic, it's actually very unnuanced for that matter. It has so many other aspects to each person, but everybody becomes just either top or bottom.

Yeah. Do you ever think I could stay with my lover and maybe at some point also marry? I do in the creativity of multiple different kinds of relationship constellations, you know. It's not like this needs to end for something else to start. I don't know that that's what you want, but I want you to switch if you can

From the default position to the design position. From the victimhood, from the I'm not chosen, from the I'm not worthy to the What actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly, creatively and responsibly? I really liked what you were saying about the stories. Like that there's a couple of stories happening here and the story of embracing this path. This thing that I like about it is that it reminds me a lot of my younger self and

I have been a very adventurous, ambitious person. Are you still? Or it's a you're talking about a different person. It's very weird, okay, because I I can be very brave. But emotionally and like these interpersonal relationships, I feel like I've been very held back by These old demons, you know. The way I'm imagining on on the very little that you've that you've told me. You see, when you have

a father. In your case it's the father, okay? Who prays philanders, lies, embezzles, etcetera, etc. And you know it's a bad behavior. But the status of this person still feels and in some wicked way better than to be the victim of all of this. As the daughter, you're in a bind. You care for mom, but you don't want to identify with mom. Mom being woman. Mom being feminine. But it's the woman.

not just the mother, it's the woman. You don't want to be that kind of woman. And so being number one becomes this kind of default position that says, I'm not. The reject. That's the way the mind of that little girl often develops this narrative. Is uh the only way to not be that weakling rejected cheated on is to be like him in terms of his power, maybe not in terms of his sociopathy, but certainly in terms of his father. He's the number one. He makes he makes the decision.

So it is a it's an impossible bind. I don't want to be like him because he's not a very attractive person, and I don't want to be like her. But I want to be with the power that he has in order not to have to be like her. And what is the tool I can use to have his power is the seductive tool.

What do you take with you from our conversation? I hoped that I would get some different looks at this from. the standpoint of a st the stories, like the story that is I'm telling myself, it's being told to me that my jealousy is telling me. And I very much feel like I have gotten that. And that puts me in this position of feeling like I can Talk back to it. I'm in conversation with a a narrative about what's happening here.

Where would you like to put this jealousy? The piece that represents it, where should it be put in your house? Burying it in the backyard is probably not the right answer. It either needs to get buried in the backyard or Put in the middle of the mantle. Okay. Alright. Would you would you uh is the there's a there's a sense which one feels more conducive? The mantle. Yeah. All right, go. Get up and go put it there. And then we'll say goodbye. Okay, I'll be right back. Yep. All right.

So it would be there in the middle of the mantle, ready for any conversation. So will our conversation. Which is now wrapped around this what you call it? My lucky cat. Your lucky cat and turn to it when you need to talk. Or when you need to listen differently. But have it be outside of you. It's that pretty powerful. In the living room. It was always there. Mm-hmm. But now it has a different symbolism.

If you want you can have a little ritual with it on a daily basis or a weekly basis and you come and you you know, you can reflect with it. But You wanna sort out the stories. They're bleeding into each other and they're making your life m too confused. God, thank you so much for this. It's such a such a joy. Thank you. All right. And bye-bye. Bye. This was an Estare College. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points. If you have a question you'd like to explain.

Answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at EstherPorell. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine,

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhe, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original Music, an additional production, by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel. And Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Allison, And Jacksaw.