When I was growing up from good times all the way to fresh prints, I was seeing a different type of blackness where it wasn't its full complexity. And so I was like, we got to get to that. And then the music filters to us. And the style filters to the vibe filter, you get what I'm saying. And because it is novel and because it seems to be completely like, you know, devoid of all conflict and struggle in a weird way, we aspire to it. And then I came to America and then I met black Americans who were like, man, I can't wait.
I was like, wait, my cousins were trying to sound like two-part. And I was like, wait, we're trying to come here and you're trying to come here. Ta-Nehisi Coates is not just one of the sharpest and most beautiful writers working today. Every time he puts something out, it seems to shake the world.
The case for reparations, between the world and me, his work on Black Panther. And his new book The Message is no different because in it he travels to South Carolina to tackle book banning. He goes to Senegal to rediscover roots that he's not sure he has. And then he delves into one of the most difficult subjects in the world today, Israel Palestine.
Most people know his work, but very few people know the man behind the words. And so this week I sat down with him and my good friend Cristiana to get into the conversations that he doesn't always get to have. Try and figure out how and why he sees the world the way he does. This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Applecard. The holidays are almost here. And who doesn't love getting a little back this season?
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Get 15% off your first order today. So, yeah, man, tell us you're welcome, man. Thanks for having me. This is what we're going to do the whole show because I can keep going. Actually, that's the first thing I do want to ask you. Do you ever feel like, do you ever miss being treated like a normal human being? Because so many people, I think, see you as only an intellectual body that I don't know how many people just shoot the shit with you.
Well, fortunately, I have family and friends who really don't care. They just don't care. You know what I've been thinking about this a lot this week is very, very important. Like, I'm a writer and so that gives me the kind of status, right? Yeah. But I am really the smartest person in any room. I'm not the funniest, not the best looking. I mean, I'm not the most athletic. And so that's good. It's good to be reminded. I mean, that the thing out here, this is the abnormal thing.
And then there's life. Do you pop into the abnormal thing and then you live mostly life? I try to stay as far away from the abnormal thing as I can. It's very deceptive. And I think it can damage people. So, what's this like having going fully back into the abnormal thing, promoting a book? You know, it's dangerous in a very particular way.
Like, I think like this sort of thing is always dangerous, but it's dangerous in a particular way because you're actually speaking on behalf of another group of people. Oh, yeah. It's not really your story for a lot of it. And so you're trying to take extra care with it while at the same time still being you. The show. Frankly, I don't know how long this can go on for. What do you mean by that?
I just, you know, there are, and we've experienced this as black people like watching maybe white people who end up in spaces that we cannot be and advocate for us. And it's like, I don't, there's just great danger in being that person. You know what I mean? And there are people who, I mean, this is like where my darkest thoughts go. The people who profit off of those positions. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I have to say what I, what I really, really need to say.
And then I really, it's very important that I get out the way. You know, like it's, it's really, really important that I, you know, go on the next, you know. That's an interesting thought because you, I think everyone has a different example of it in their heads. But I know for a fact, I've seen people who, you know, it's seldom rights as I think more people on social media. Where they sort of traffic in the pain and suffering of others. At first, they're bringing awareness to it.
And then at some point, you're like, yo, is this your, is this how you make your money now? That's what I'm talking about. They almost like, they almost like ambulance chaser lawyers where you go. I don't know if you actually care that people got hurt at work. I feel like this is how you make your money. So you're concerned about like people conflating somehow the things you're discussing with the project you're making and saying you're the spokesperson now. Yes, yes, yes.
But I would say even more deeply, like my intention, my intention is to make room within the frame for people who have been pushed out of it. That is not intention. So it's not even like a, it is a concern about perception, but there's a deeper concern about purpose. Yeah. I think like one of the questions I often, or I've gotten over the past few days, are you worried about the pushback? Are you worried about the blowback? Not really.
I mean, I kind of knew what that was and I knew it was going, what, you know, what was going to happen going into it. But, you know, once the attention started, I think the thing I immediately began worrying about was becoming the guy and not clearing space for people who really, truly, truly, truly know, I can really, really speak in a way that I actually cannot. It's, it's difficult though.
I, you know, so I remember when I started on the daily show and like Cristiano has been with me almost like from the beginning, because when did you come in 2017? Oh, I love that you know the dates. Yes, I love the date. Yeah, so I've been there. That means I've been only for a year. I've been hosting, right? I've been there two years, but a year hosting. And I remember exactly what you're saying.
I always, what I always loved on the daily show was that I had a platform and an opportunity and I always thought as, as, as like a, not an obligation. But like, like an opportunity. I was like, oh, this is cool. We got to talk about these ideas and Cristiano was always the person like filling in gaps when she's like, oh Trevor, if you heard of this story and I think there's a way we could look at this and to give credit to the building. There were many people who did that.
It was like a brain trust that like sort of, you know, and then I was the sponge and the filter who goes, I don't know if we, that works. I don't know if this works, et cetera, but to your point, it's like, we would, let's say we would talk about a shooting that takes place. And then we talk about another shooting. But then very quickly people would be like, oh, hey, there's more shootings and there's more shootings and then you've got to talk about.
And then it's, it's, it's weird because on the one hand, you want to be the person who gives voice to a topic. But on the other hand, you don't want it to be your thing. That's right. Because in a strange way, you can either lose yourself or you can make people feel like it's, you try to make it your thing. Right, right, right. And you cheapen maybe the thing that you're trying to actually bring a chance entrance.
Yeah. You know, so, you know, I've been actually thinking about and just in a conversation with someone about this earlier today about like what I can do structurally that is not visible, that is not public. You know, to advance that aim. It's so interesting. I love the book, by the way. Oh, thank you. I was really grief you said you hated it. Well, what a joy. I've been through that. I didn't think maybe this is my politic. It wasn't that radical. I was like, this is not that extreme.
It's not like this is perfectly reasonable. That's how I read it. But the thing I was most profoundly moved by was your reflections on childhood. Because I'm raising children now and I often think about how my son is experiencing his childhood, how my daughter is experiencing a childhood. And when you spoke about being a restless child and the confines of the classroom. Yes. And you know, reading kind of being this retreat from you, being passed down by your parents.
And it was like you spoke about the portrait of your father, the man that you're carrying with you. And I was like, to me, it was like a reflection on beautiful parenting in a way. But also a child that probably wasn't that happy a lot of the time. And I was just I was to me, it was a remarkable that this child that was so restless, that would cry about a story about that. Are you really read the book?
No, no, no, no, no. It's the same child that ends up in the car and it had his ears being like, oh, they see me as mixed. And it's now in South Carolina dealing with this teach. To me, it was just like, you know, you call your books, your children, but it was so much about you, it was very personal. And very introspective. And I feel a lot of that is being missed in place of the final chapter. Yeah. And the way what you experienced in Israel and Palestine. You know, it's fine.
I knew that was going to happen too. And I was okay with that. One of the cool things about books is like they sit there. And so people will come back and they'll see that over time. And in terms of just getting to the more personal aspects of stuff, I always tell my writing students like, you're reading this could be doing anything else. You know, they could be watching TV. They could be on a smartphone. You play video game. You really have to justify the time.
And you really, and so like I am always like trying to sacrifice and bleed on the page. You know, I really need you to feel like my work is worth your time. You know, it's I'm trying to give everything I can. Yeah. You know, when I'm writing. Let me ask you a question about, you know, like on a human level, I honestly have to ask you this because I very seldom get angry on people's behalf. But man, we haven't been able to stop talking about the CBS interview.
Wow. Like, and I mean, when I say we, I don't just mean the people who make this podcast. Yeah. I mean, like my friends, people online, people. Yeah. And I'm totally off. Oh, you really? Yeah. Oh, you're off. I'm completely off. Oh, I'm happy when I have here about it. I mean, I'm obviously hearing this from other people. Yeah. Let me fool you in. Let me fool you. I don't think you understand the shockwave that interview created.
Not because of what you said, but because of the way people felt like you were treated. Mm-hmm. Just just the opening self of that conversation. Right. And I'll never forget the question that you get asked where I think it's Tony who says to you. When I read the book, I imagine if I took your name out of it, took away the awards and the acclaim, took the cover off the book, the publishing house goes away, the content of that section would not be out of place in the backpack of an extremist.
Yo, I sat there. I don't get flabbergasted by much. Right. I genuinely know. I sat there and I was like, what? My first thought is, yes, but if you remove every context from everything, then everything could go anywhere. You know what I mean? If you remove America's history and America's German, America's German, America's this, then it's like, yeah, those people who fought against the bridge, they were terrorists. Right. You know what I mean? You can call it like, yeah, the Boston Tea Party.
That's terrorism. Yeah. If you remove the context, everything has no context. Right. And I'd like to know from you what, like maybe like why you think people do that. Why do they remove all context when speaking about Israel, Palestine? I am. I mean, try to process why I wasn't so assaulted. I think it's a couple of things. I think like I love all of those awards and accolades, but they're not really me. So, okay, you're taking my way. It's fine. You know what I mean? I'm still me.
I think also I have been in this in terms of the research and the writing, you know, from, you know, over a year now. And I guess, again, I don't know, I keep staying. That's how much the extent to which Palestinians have been pushed out of the frame. Understanding how much of this was a third rail. I really like I knew this was coming. Okay. Even the like, you know, right to exist. Like I knew like the states rights to it.
Like I, it was like you've been, you know, like shadow boxing and waiting for a fight. And you see somebody throw the left that you've seen your spot on the throw like a thousand times by then. And I figured at some point it was going to be a fight. You know, I didn't know it was going to be right then, but I figured at some point it was going to be a fight. I want to say something that actually is really important.
And I went, went wrong in that interview more than anything as far as I'm concerned is. Gail King is a great journalist. Yeah. Great interviewer. And, um, Gail came behind the stage before we went and she had gone through the book. And I'm not saying she like agreed with the book. She was like, I want to ask you about this. I want to ask you about that. I want you to say it was like, Gail was considered. Oh my god. I think Gail King is considered. Listen, but she didn't speak.
It was her handwritten notes. Her handwritten notes with it. And she had all these things. And I think while on the one hand, he probably did me a service. You know what I mean by just kind of take comment during that interview. I don't think he did Nate and Gail a service. And I'm really, really sorry for them. I asked more than anything. I can take care of myself. You know, I'm good. I'm good. Like I said, I've been hearing these arguments. I've been rehearsing.
So, you know, if this is what you want to do, I'm okay doing it. Like, I'm good. I was okay. I'm okay. Don't cry for me. I'm sure, you know, that, that, that, that, that interview will sell a lot of books. Because the fact that it matter is that reaction is actually endemic of what I'm actually writing. Yeah. It is. There is no way in the world you can imagine a journalist who took the other side of that coming on here.
And somebody's saying, if we took away the cover, if we took away the awards, we took it. I feel like I would find this in the backpack of a settler colonialist. Yeah. You can't even imagine that. Yeah, that framing just wouldn't, it doesn't exist. It's like 10 steps that need to happen before. And they aren't there. They aren't even there. You know what I mean? And so, I think to your point, sorry, I'm taking a long time to answer your question. No, no, no, no. This is why we're here.
This is a long time. There's more 20 seconds. Yeah, but that's the point of a podcast. We don't have 20 seconds. But, but to your point, removing the context, I think, is actually essential. You know what I mean? Because if you start asking why, then you really, really start to get into trouble. I mean, one of the things I'm really trying to maintain, both personally and in my public presentation is obviously my great horror at maybe not obviously, but my great horror at October 7th.
Right. The fact that I don't say that profancturally, but I say it because at the core of my politics is human life. Yeah. And human life really, really matters to me. And thus, about that same token, if human life matters on October 7th, it shouldn't matter on October 6th and October 5th, too. And understanding that it didn't.
When I went over to travel to the West Bank and to Israel and I was up and down the country, I went to Jesus from Haifa, Jerusalem, South Hebron Hills, Hebron itself, lead Tel Aviv. What they told me was Gaza's worst. Is that I know you've seen some stuff and you're going to say Gaza, and this is obviously before October, they said Gaza is worse. Wow. And I was trying to get there, but there's, you know, all sorts of things in terms of press access and that I couldn't.
And so I just think, like, is there room in the world and I don't think there is right now? I actually don't think there is to have genuine, genuine horror at what happened on October 7th to feel like there really isn't a world in which or reason that I can apprehend. I'm not Palestinian. I'm Tana Hossei Coats that I can apprehend for justifying anything like that. And yet understanding at the same time, the things have histories that they have been in the course of events.
The example I think about all the time is like Nat Turner, right? Like Nat Turner, largest is rebellion in 1830. This man has slotted his babies in their crebs. You know what I mean? Like, and I've like done this thought experience, this experiment for myself over and over. Does the degradation and dehumanization of slavery make it so that you can look past something like that?
And I try to imagine, and I think I can accurately imagine as much as possible that they were enslaved people, no matter how dehumanized that said, this is too far. Yeah. Yeah. I can't do that. Now, here's the flip side of it. And I haven't said this out loud, but I think about it a lot. Well, I 20 years old, born into Gaza, which is a giant open air jail. And what I mean by that is if my father is a fisherman, and he goes too far out into the sea, he might get shot.
Yeah. By somebody off of, you know, inside of Israel, he boats, if my mother picks the olive trees, and she gets too close to the wall, she might be shot. If my little sister has, you know, cancer, and she needs treatment because they know, you know, facilities to do that in Gaza. And I don't get the right permit. She might die. And I grow up under that oppression and that poverty. And the wall comes down. Am I also strong enough? Or even constructed in such a way, why say, this is too far?
I don't know that I am. You know, I don't know that I am. You know, and I just wish we had room to work through that. You know what I mean? And to think about that and to talk about that. And I think that is not unique to Israel. That is not unique to Palestine. That is not unique to Zionism. That is human history. That's human beings. I always tell people, you know, like they think. They lived in the time of slavery that they would not have been in slavers. I always tell you what of. Yeah.
You what of? Because it's a system. And most human beings, you know, we exist within context. Yeah, we do. Within context. And without that, you know what I mean? I did it. That can be some triumphant heroic individual who's going to go above and beyond. That's not a real thing. That's not history. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve.
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I think about, you know, sometimes the best way for me to process a story that's happening now is to take a story that isn't happening now, because I have a little room, I have a little context. But I remember having a conversation with President Obama when he was still in office. We were talking about this, like it was an interview. And we're chatting and I've asked, you know, state officials the same question. As I say, I'm always intrigued by the notion of like a strike as they call it,
and the collateral damage. And I always go, do you ever wonder what collateral damage causes? Not, and I'm not saying to justify, but do you ever wonder what it causes? So one of the stories that always stuck out to me was there was a strike that was conducted. And they were, they were getting, I think it was one of the heads of ISIS. He was in the back of a taxi. And if you remember, there was like, and they shut down a missile, got the taxi he was dead.
And they were, they were all happy about it. And I remember we're at the Daily Show talking about this. And I said, wait, where did they kill? They said, yeah, we got him clean strike gone. And I said, what about the taxi driver? Yeah. And they were like, oh, yeah, well, the taxi's gone. I said, well, what about the taxi driver? And they were like, oh, but this was an ISIS terrorist. I said, okay, maybe it's because I come from a quote unquote third world country.
Being a taxi driver, even in America, by the way, even in a first world, is like, those people are responsible for so many lives. Being a taxi driver is not a passion job. It's not a career that you aspire to. It's like, this is what I'm doing to make ends meet. And I go, when you've taken out a taxi driver, how many lives have you taken out around him? And I know you're celebrating that you've killed this person, but who might you have radicalized?
Yeah. Who might you have, you know, and it's, it's, it's, I, that's, that's, I think one of the reasons I love your writing so much is because it challenges us to continuously approach the most difficult topics with the nuance that anger and violence oftentimes don't get, you know. And to go back, fun enough to that first question you were asked on CBS, I hadn't read the book, right, when that, when that happened.
But I was now ready for this chapter. I was like, man, I, you know, I read through the book and I'm like, okay, and I'm reading about you loving American football in the beginning. I'm like, oh, this is sweet. But in the back of my mind now, it's like, you know, when you've watched a movie trailer and they've only shown you one part. And I'm like, I mean, I know it starts out right. Right. And I'm reading these sweet stories and I'm picturing you crying because of a football player's love.
It's like lost, it's paraplegic and you're crying and you're having this journey and I'm reading about you in Baltimore and your father. And you're learning about reading and loving and writing and talking to your students. But in the back of my head, I'm going get ready, Trevor. There's a chapter in this book that is going to make you think about Tanaasi differently. I'm like, what is this extremist thing?
And what nobody mentions in that interview, you spend the first, I want to say like 10-ish pages. Speaking about the Jewish history, you spend the first 10 pages talking about the Holocaust. You spend the first pages talking about going through the memorial. You talk about the names, the book of names that shows you all the millions of people who died in the Holocaust.
You talk about the most painful stories, you know, those soldiers killing 2,000 Jewish people, not because the war was still happening, but because they just didn't want them to be free. And they knew the Russians were approaching and they were going to free them. And I didn't know some of these like individual moments and I was like, damn, this is hard, damn, this is painful. But all I kept thinking was like, wait, wait, wait, this is not in the backpack of an extreme.
This is like, it's probably not. No, but that's what I mean is like, you know, and maybe this is, you know, it's a long way of me getting to the question. And that is like, why would you start telling the story of the Palestinian people? That chapter, why would you start that story with the history of the Jewish people? It's actually not about the Palestinian people. And I have to be pretty open about that. It takes a particular perspective, definitely.
But if you notice, there's like symmetry, although it's not deliberately called out between that synagogue chapter and the Israel chapter. Yeah, I felt that. Yeah. And it's because in that car, I'm confronting stories, imagined ideas that play a role in the politics and then having to deal with Africa as an actual place. Yeah, you know what I mean? With people. Yeah. Don't celebrate Kwanza. You know, I wasn't really happy with that.
And frankly, I still haven't quite figured it all out yet, but the mess of that and then, you know, like working through that, right? You know, May, there's something to have an African name that nobody in Africa has. Well, I have African name that nobody in Africa has, right? And so you're kind of like working through that and I actually think that's okay.
fine, but like trying to work through that. And then here I am in this place where some of the, I was saying nationalist impulse that I grew up around and grew up under hasn't taken to like the nth degree. Like it's actually been operationalized. You know, it's not, you know, just people without power trying to, you know, create stories and trying to preserve themselves and trying to arm it themselves against an oppression. It has become an actual state. And I knew I was going to write
about that. But you see, this doesn't work if you can't see yourself in Israel and in Zionism. If you can't, if you think it is just evil people over here doing an evil thing, then you've missed it. Yeah. You know what I mean? You've missed it. This started somewhere. You know what I mean? It's, it started somewhere and I have to be honest and I said this in the piece. Once I started reading like a documents around Zionism, it was like on one level, I was like, oh, this is so
clearly colonialism. Like I recognize a colonialist discourse. Well, first of all, they used the word colonized, but also, you know, depicting people over there in a certain way, either as they don't exist or that savage one of the other. But the other part was I recognized the yearning. Like I recognized, you know, Moses has talking about being a member of a degraded people at one place, he says, you know, your, your, your nose and your hair won't be made to disappear. You can pretend
you're German. He's saying this before the Holocaust. You know what I mean? You can't hide your Jewishness. You should be proud of it. And all I can hear is like Malcolm X, right? Yeah. So I'm like recognizing it. Like I can feel the parallels. The parallels. Yeah. And the fraternity for it and the sympathy like I understand it. But then you see where it goes, right? You see where it goes and how a people who have been just repeatedly degraded over centuries
massacred, killed, chased, I can definitely cleanse themselves out of Spain. You know, can go somewhere and perpetrate and create a system of just dire in humanity, dire in you. I say this haven't seen it, you know, against other people. That was a challenge for me as a black person actually. You know what I mean? Like as much as I was like concerned about Zionism and what it, what it did because I started thinking, and this is imaginative and speculative,
but this is I think what writers are supposed to do. What will we be if we had power? Like what will we do? You know, and then there's this discourse around Liberia where African Americans had this whole thing about, oh, we're going to go back to Africa and we're going to civilize our brethren, right? Yeah. We're going to, we're going to Christianize and civilize them. And you see my God, like we could be seduced into the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and that's why I'm very
strong on this point. This is not a Jewish era. It's not a Zionist era. You know what I mean? This is a human, a deeply, deeply human temptation. That is wrong. But human, human nonetheless. I find in the book what I found was interesting. I thought you implicate yourself. You talk about I see American imperialism. I see, you know, evangelical Christianity and as an bear of an American passport who can go through certain checkpoints that are the common part. I am
enmeshed with that, whether I like it or not. So you're like calling yourself out as an American in a way that I don't think people are necessarily acknowledging. You're not saying, oh, this is the big bad Israel. You're saying this is us. It's actually us. And that's the key difference because people will tell you they said, well, what about Sudan, what about China, what about, you know, they'll name all the places where horrible things are happening,
what about Saudi Arabia? And they're not wrong. You know, they're not wrong. But this is our horrible thing. That is the key. That is actually the key difference. You know, every single fighter plane that drops a bomb on Gaza came from America every single one, every single one. You know, I got that from there's a report by this guy, Josh Paul. And this great Palestinian American law professor, Anurna Attacot that they wrote together. Josh Paul used to be in the state department.
And he worked in the area that oversaw the sale of weapons to other countries until he was just like, I can't do this anymore. And he sent me, you know, a couple of weeks ago, like the report that they that he and Noda had done just outlining the human rights violations that had come over over the past year or so. And I saw that line about and this was after. And I was like, my god,
this is really all us. You know, I'm just getting more and more evidence. And I'll tell you even more so because we walk around the world, we go around the world, maybe not well, we go around the world saying we are the front of democracy. We advanced ourselves through the fight against enslavement. We advanced ourselves through the fight against segregation. We advanced ourselves. You know, I mean, Martin Luther King is our patron saint. But we are supporting segregation right now.
Right now, that's the one thing that about that CBS interview, right? Like when I say segregation apart, not once did somebody say, no, that's not true. Yeah, he kept on saying, and why is that? Right, right. Right. Right. That's not true. He said, and why is that happening? What is that? Which every single perpetrator of segregation in Jim Crow says, I'm sorry, he said it about a bar time. Yeah, no, they said all sorts of good reasons for me.
Well, for me, that's the that's the parallel is like, you know, I've had this conversation, sometimes argument with some of my friends, you know, some is really born, some just of Jewish descent. And we'll talk about this. And you know, one thing I wish people knew more of is how how broad the spectrum is. For instance, just to what you said now, we had on, you know, one of the other podcast episodes, we had the author of sapiens and nexus, you've all know
a harari on. Yes. And he's like, he said, I'm a Zionist. And he said, but this is what my definition of Zionism is. It is me believing that Jewish people have a right to exist in a state where they do not have to run away because of their nose and their hair. And I'm paraphrasing that part. But essentially, that's what he said. And then he went on to say Israel's committing crimes in Gaza. And he said, and the West Bank is even more indefensible because there's not even a
boogie man, Hamas to blame it on. And he said that students should be protesting against the US because in your words, funny enough, he said, it is America's participation in that specific thing. And when I think about apartheid, like I'll talk to my friends. And I'll be honest, I think this is what it is, you know, and I think we all guilty of it at different times. None of us wishes to be labeled something that we can never get out from under. Right? Nobody wants to be called a racist
because this is now a stain that they wear forever. And there's no coming out from under it. You know, and so if that's why people are so in my opinion, people are so afraid of saying, oh yeah, that was racist. What I said was racist. What I did was because they like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I know where this goes. No, I know, I know, and I've noticed the same thing.
And during apartheid, the architects of apartheid were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not racist. They're like, no, we do this for the for the banter. And they said that you must understand the black cannot govern themselves. The black does not have the capability to understand governance. And we are predicting them. And we must keep and and then when I'll talk to my friends in and around Israel, Palestine, I'll say to them, they go like, how can you call it? How can anyone call it a
apartheid? And then I'll say, okay, let's do it this way. You tell me what's different. I'm just going to tell you what apartheid was. Right. Right. I'm just going to tell you what it was. And I would like you to tell me where you see a discrepancy. Right. And I go, okay, so in apartheid, your ethnicity determined what your life could be, where you could go, what job you could get, how long you could
stay in the major part of the town where the power was held. Or you know, where you could move or not move. That's what apartheid did. And they're like, okay, it's like that. But and I'm like, no, don't give me reasons. Let's forget reasons for a moment. Let's just talk about what it was and what it wasn't. And I go apartheid also said that you couldn't vote depending on your ethnicity or, yes, but I go and I go, you're my friend. I'm not inditing you. I just want you to tell me how it's
different to apartheid. Yeah. And oftentimes it's ended at yes, there's many similarities, but it's because it's because and I go, I have yet to find a thing that happened in our past that didn't have a because it's always like that. And that and where I don't think, folks realize is that's actually a further indictment. That's actually because you sound like the thing you think you're not. Right. And you don't know the history of the thing you think you're not well enough to realize
how much you actually sound like it. Yeah. You know, and so when you say, for instance, you know, the Palestinians have done this that, you know, suicide bombings, you know, terrorist attacks, etc. That's real. That's real. And nobody would like deny the pain of that. You know, the problem is the violence of the oppressed is that's always the reason.
That's always the reason. You know, and so, you know, I was on a podcast with somebody else and we were discussing this and it's like, I just gave you that Nat Turner example, right? And I say, well, I think killing babies in the crib is wrong. I don't think I could do that, right? But that doesn't justify slavery. Yeah. Yeah. You see them saying that didn't make that
the thing that you don't have me. Yeah. That's what I mean. Because you know what I mean? That therefore justifies, no, no, no, no, no. And I think like this is like a principle thing that cannot be gotten past. Either you think there are good reasons for segregation, apartheid, I'm going, oh, you don't. You know what I mean? And in my mind, there is never any reason. You know, like my dream of liberation is not like enslaving white people. That would be wrong.
I oppose enslavement. You know, I use the death penalty example all the time. I am opposed to the death. There is no because for me for the death. There is no, you know, he's a serial killer, killed 30 people. No, I'm against it. I'm against the for Dylan Roof. Like I'm against it. There's no because for me. You know, and I think we all have those things. It's just the fact the bare truth of it is some of us do not have those things for apartheid. That's just the truth.
Some people think and that is scary for me as a black person because now I know who I'm talking to because you would do that to me if there wasn't because. You know, we can't imagine ourselves that way or we can't imagine ourselves doing the worst or you know, it's interesting that we understand it fundamentally as humans, but then when it comes to practicing it, our fear takes over. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like I remember getting into a passionate argument with a friend of mine
around Israel, Palestine, and he was like, but Trevor, what do you want us to do? And you know, the Hamas is trying to kill us and these we think these other countries around us want to kill us. Like what do you want us to do? And I was like, well, I want you to not kill babies. I want you to not kill children. And he was like, no, but we don't want to. And we you got to understand where Israel is kind of like, yeah, no, no, I'm not saying that. And then I said to him something that I
truly believe, but I don't know again, because I haven't been fully tested. I don't know that I would be able to exercise it. And maybe even we are, I said, you know what it is? It's the burden of the good guy. When you watch a movie, watch a James Bond movie, right? For all these flaws, you watch James Bond. James Bond is pursuing one of the villains. They've got like a vile that's going to kill the whole world. Some virus. The bad guy gets drive through a crowded market and
crashing everyone who's in it and not give a damn. James Bond has to stop has to go around people. If a woman is thrown, he has to catch her. If a child falls, he has to stop you. Superman. I want to go off the Zod, but the building is falling. So I have to stop the building from falling because while I'm trying to beat Zod, the building is full of people and my mission is to save people. And so I cannot let the people die in my fight with Zod just because I'm trying to get Zod.
And I do not mean I keep going. I'm like, man, we do understand it on a hypothetical moral level when we watch it. But when we're tested, very few of us pass that test to get beyond our fear. The other thing is like the building is filled with people who are not you. You know what I mean? So it's like, how can you have empathy beyond yourself? Which I just think, I don't know, man. Like one of the things that I was, I thought a lot about
there was these rallies I spoke to, they spoke in terms of survival, right? Which is actually, and that's why I started with the adversary, which is I mean, when you have faced, you know, real existential violence, you know, you might would start to think of things in no sort of terms. But equally interesting was like the story they told about that survival, not all of them, but one of the more popular versions of it, which holds that they went like lambs to the slaughter,
like that there was no real resistance. And so it's a kind of like, not just, I won't let genocide happen again, but at next time I'm going to go out fighting. I don't think that story is particularly accurate. I only have version of it that just it doesn't correspond with how oppressed people act under systems ever, you know, any human being, you know, ever. But I think also beyond that, it's like, what is life for? You know, like what is what is what is living for? What is what is,
like what you're trying to survive for what? You know, and if and like you say you haven't been tested, so I don't like, I agree. I don't want to speak for anybody else, but I don't know if my life depends on daily killing babies. I mean, I might jump off a building myself. Right. Because I don't know what my life is then like, I don't know. I don't know. I have a life worth living myself. Like when I think about that, when I try to do that thought experiment,
like I feel like I've like somehow lost, like is it just oxygen? No, but in the book, I think you answer it when you talk about the parallels between the dehumanization of black people and the dehumanization of Arab and brown people. Yeah. When you no longer see the humanity in these people, I think you can do anything, right? Right. But what about like your own humanity? Yeah. Well, you're losing your own humanity by the act, which is I think the sadness and all of that. I think
that's a lot. I would challenge that. Fun enough. Yeah. Actually, I think it's the first part and it's what you said. I don't think many of the people are forced. They're not challenging. We are not challenging our humanity because we've made it numbers because we've made it statistics. And you talk about this in the book. We go read. If you go read like the articles, and I think I'm really happy that Gen Z has been as on this as they have on like TikTok, on Twitter, on all of it.
You now see with a real clear lens how the media tells the stories about what's happening in the Middle East, they will say, you know, a family killed in Tel Aviv, a group they'll make it human. And on the other side, they'll go 60 Palestinians. But Palestinians is not a thing. They're not humans. Do you know what I mean? A Palestinian is not a like when you think of it, if you take that word,
you should remove it and just write humans, children, humans, children. I don't think anyone to borrow your words from the book would be able to grapple with that constant toll and pain. Because we'd be like, whoa, how many humans and how many children and how many people? And I think
that's actually what it is. Throughout history, even if we zoom out from the conflict in the Middle East, what we've been very good at doing as a species, you know, through a few people who have assumed power is they've managed to dehumanize the people that it's happening to so that we don't have to question our humanity. So when the US drones a part of the Middle East where it's awaiting, or no, no, it's collateral damage insurgents. But collateral damage is not people.
Yeah, it's not so true. It's an haiceteric. Exactly. And that I think is actually is. Don't go anywhere because we got more what now after this. This episode of Science Vestors is brought to you by Ford. There are a few pickups more iconic than the F-150. And the 2024 F-150 Lightning Truck is no exception. With an EPA estimated range of 320 miles with the available extended range battery, it's the only EV that's an F-150.
Visit Ford.com to learn more. Excludes Platinum models, EPA estimated driving range based on full charge. Actual driving range varies with conditions such as external environment, vehicle use, vehicle maintenance, high voltage battery age and state of health. It's interesting because when you go to South Carolina, you go to this kind of school board meeting in where people are defending this teacher called Mary. They're trying to ban your book,
basically. And it's interesting to me that you'll say, how can they do that to me as a black person or as a really prolific black author? There is this movement to ensure that children don't read your book because they don't want the widening of their imagination, their aperture. So how did it feel actually living through that? Because it felt that like you were more burdened by what you saw in Israel and Palestine, but you were more personally impacted by what would actually
happen in South Carolina, kind of like in your backyard. Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. Why was I not more burdened by South Carolina? It probably is the fact that this is less of a threat to me than it is to the students and the parents. I didn't really feel like between the world and me is going to be fine. So I probably felt it less personally. Maybe some of it also was the fact that it was like I got to tell you this was a little weird, right? Because it was really white self-interest
that I was observing. And I mean that actually in the best way, right? Because look, like all people, you know what I mean? These white parents down here, they want their kids to have a a first class education. They want them to be able to go out in the world. They don't want people mocking them and laughing at them. And you know, and to them, it's like book banning.
Like I'm going to have to send my kid out into the world and like I come from a district with a band books like they, you know, obviously have enough sense to realize that is not how you raise a worldly kid with, you know, expectations like these were kids in the AP English class, right? So they're trying to get credit to get ahead in the university. You know, and it's like this is like barbaric. You know what I mean? What we're talking about here. And so when I say self-interest, I mean,
they might have my politics. But they recognize that part of a first rate education is reading different things, taking things from different, like it was kind of that recognition of that value. It's not we completely and totally agree with Tana Hasekot's. You know what I mean? It's just we want our kids to have a relatively high level education. You know, and you know, as I say in
the book, I mean, you can mock that. You can laugh at that. But there are not too many freedom struggles that have been advanced without, you know, some group of people from the majority seeing that interest. Yeah. You know, you know, you know, they're too. So I was fine with it. I want to say something really quickly. And I have to remind myself to say this all the time as I talk about this. I was talking before about my sympathy, like how I was reading the documents and everything. And I
felt, you know, like the similarity in reference to that, I get how hard it might be. If you are Jewish and you're trying to reckon with this stuff, you know what I mean? That was the other reason why I was kind of written away it was. Yeah. Because, um, man, you know, and I have some exposure to this in other ways, but I won't make this about me. I can imagine it is great. It is really, really difficult to be with an assistant. I saw it with my own eyes actually, um, within a system that
tells you your, your noble that tells you what you're doing is correct. That tells you you are within the tradition of people who have been correct within a movement that is correct. And somebody is telling you, no, you're actually sticking your foot on people's throat. That's hard to take. Yeah. You know, that's, that's, that's, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be said by the way. It should be. No, no, I hate you. Yeah, but to deconstruct like the core of your identity
in that way. Because when you do it, what's left? Well, there are, there are two stories. Well, one less, one less a story, but I don't know if you remember when, um, World Central Kitchen, Jose Andris, you know, they, they, I mean, he does an amazing job. He's all over the world.
And he just feeds people. And it's, it seems like such a simple mission, but what he does with his organization is there's a devastation anywhere in the world from natural disaster, from war, you name it, he gets in there and he gets in there faster than most like giant organizations. And he just feeds people from Haiti to Florida, from Gaza to Syria. He gets in there and he feeds
people. And one of the more tragic stories that came out of the, the Israel-Palestine conflict was, I think it was seven of the central world central kitchen people being killed in a, in a strike. And you know, there's been all these reports. And then like the Israel government said out, it was like rogue sort of like some soldiers in the ranks who weren't supposed to be doing something they went against orders and it's muddled. So I won't, you know, put my foot anywhere in particular
because I keep reading new things about it. But what was most interesting for me was seeing that he got interviewed afterwards by, he got a harretz, you know, in Israel. They, they did like a, almost full page spread on, on him like an interview. And then he was on, I think it's channel 12 in, in Israel. And I saw multiple people online when there was happening, saying, and I, it seemed completely honest to me, they said, this is the first time I have seen a story saying anything
about what's happening in Gaza from inside Israel. And I saw multiple people saying that. Multiple people saying, I, I wasn't hearing this, I wasn't seeing this, I wasn't. And, and in a way, I think, you know, I think of what you talk about in your book, you know, when you, when you talk about the importance of being a storyteller, the responsibility that writes as bare, the obligation that you have when you're putting words on a page, because I think about how powerful
it is to be able to craft a story or a narrative for people. You know, one of the key things I hear from many whites of African, some could be lying, but I, I think genuinely when I talk to them many of them, they'll tell me straight up, they go, Trevor, I didn't know. And I'm like, what do you mean you didn't know? And they go like, Trevor, they go, nobody knew what was happening. And I'm like, how could you not know what is happening in a pot? And they say, remember, we have
the national broadcaster. Yeah. They broadcast what we watch. We weren't getting international stuff. It was banned. You weren't getting music from America that was anything like sugar man and all these songs that question, no, we weren't getting anything. So our reality was shaped by the government. And if your reality is shaped, you almost have to be like neo to escape. Yeah. You really got to do something because I always think about that. You know, on that level, I go, forget who's a good
person who's a bad person. Think about what kind of person you have to be to say, everything in my reality makes sense, but I'm going to question it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I think about how many Israelis don't get like the story on all sides. I think about how many South Africans didn't get the story of a partite. They were just told, yeah, they were even told that black people loved living there, by the way. They were like, no, this is great. They're
loving it. They love how they live. And then they would show, look at the violence or the ANC's trying to disrupt this thing. They're trying to blow everything up. We've created a working system. Everyone is happy. And maybe, you know, it's a question I have to you then as a writer is like, how do you how do you escape that? How do you even begin the journey of puncturing your reality? Do you not
I mean, you know, I think it's important. Everyone who listens to this understands that the book is a whole. It's not, if you think it's Israel, Palestine, it's not that's the most contentious issue right now. But the part of the book where you're going into Senegal, for me is like you having to puncture a reality. You having to now see Africans as human beings who don't just exist as numbers, who know it's not just the beginning of a slave trade. Oh, it's people.
Right. It actually started back when I was in college because when I went to Howard, I was in a history department where they were very scholarly. And it was like all of this stuff about like they, they came and kidnapped us and we were kings. They had no tolerance for any of that. And it was extremely disruptive of my concept of what Africa wasn't what it meant for me. And I finally, you know, went over myself and I think, you know, it's interesting. I think why didn't I
let go of a lot of stuff, right? And I say that I'm still in process because even as I was walking down the street, I really do think I was the film was still over my eyes. And I'll give you an example. I would just like repeatedly remark on the beauty of the Senegalese people, right? They're very beautiful. But I have to say that. Okay. But I have a question about that. Yeah. I have a question about that. Yeah. Let's do it. Is it that? Now they are.
But is it that or is it also the fact that I'm speaking as an African American maybe here that you grow up under all of this stuff, telling you you're ugly, you're unattractive, your nose is too big, your lips is too big, your hair is like all that. And then you go and you're like, he's a stunning people. He's a stunning people. And you see them and they're the coolest people in the world who like they're smooth and you know what I mean? They're style and it's like what?
You know what I mean? And so I am trying to, I guess, can't rehand how much of that is me looking at them through this? You know what I mean? Trying to escape like what I've been told here and how much of that is the reality of it. You mentioned the ideology, Nicarology. Yes. I couldn't get over that even existed. I know it existed in an abstract, but it's real way of thinking. Yes. And you were like, have I been somehow tainted by that? That I'm surprised by
the humanity? That was the worst part. That was the worst part. Just the way they live. And then no, it was that was. So I think like, yes, you know what I mean? I obviously did bring it with me. Like that's just the truth of it. And the fact that a matter is all of the work I had done and to escape it, you know what I mean? I don't know if you ever get out of it. The second thing was like I read all of the scholarship about a door and no return is bullshit. It's not real. Not that many
people went through. Gore A, you know, Atheist and Gore A Atheist. And I'm gonna tell you, when that boat pulled off, I lost it. Even knowing. Even knowing. Yes, even knowing. This is BS. Like empirically, this is not what they said it was. You know what I mean? And so what does it mean that even after you deconstruct all of this stuff that is myth and it's not real? Like some of this stuff still has a hold on you. I mean, I would there be, you know, evenings when
I would sit with two of the people I talk about in the book. I'm gonna do it. And it's like, we have this whole conversation about who's mixed and who's not and I'll let that sort of thing, right? But see, the fact that a matter is while some people might find that conversation hurtful, we had to have some kinship to even joke like that. Yeah. Like you don't just say that to people. You know what I mean? Like you got to have like, there has to be something. You're still kidding.
Right. Right. You have. Because I can't. It's really just. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like cousins ribbing each other. But why are we cousins again? Yeah. Damn. You know what I mean? I mean, we are. I got the feeling. Yeah. I feel you. You know what I mean? But what do you know when you mentioned how like kind of grieved you were by them saying, you know, the women out here, they bleach and they change their hair because they want to look like
African-Americans. It seemed like that really sat with you. You were like, okay, now what has happened here? Yeah. That it was so meta that you couldn't really. Because this is at the same time as I'm doing. You're so beautiful. Like I'm doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why would you want to look like us? Like why would you? Yeah. And then you know, the other thing is, and I don't know if this is where you're going. I might have cut you off. No, no, go for it. But we looked the way we look
because rape is an indelible part of the experience of enslavement. You know what I mean? Like it's not a gift. Yeah. Systemic sexual assault. Right. Right. That's why it is the way it is. And so and it's actually a marker in that way of our division. You know what I mean? In the way that we were kind of very much like, like, as Nicole Hannah Jones is born on the water. Like that was like, you know, what we were there was stripped away taken and then something out of what was left of that.
And you know, what we got here forcibly, you know, became who we are. You know, and I mean, that's probably even tied to the why are we cousins thing? You know what I mean? Because like, what are we like what like what like what are we? It did feel like in the car that you experienced some sort of psychic shift. And I don't want to make it trope because that's the whole thing. Like African American. Yeah. I've brought in France. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
We're done. Yeah. We should have done. In the James. I wrote some of this book in France. In the James more to intuition. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. But you're like, you know, part of I'm paraphrasing what part of your writing and the tradition you're in is like veneration of that and they're speaking to you in three years. Yes. Yes. But it felt like with the israel palestine thing, it felt that you had come to a personal conclusion based on your
morality on your feeling about the human experience. But we come out of Senegal, kind of still grappling. Yeah. Not a kind of wonder why why is that? It did it not feel like home enough or did it feel like home like what was that confusion? And there was there was an underlying intention there that I didn't feel anywhere else. I think it's the what are we? I think I never figured out the what are we? I know what the feeling is, but I can't I couldn't I know we to each other or just
what are we to each other? I feel like we're kids. Yeah. And I felt like I felt that, but I couldn't put it in the words. Like I couldn't quite name it, you know, and I guess that's understandable. That was my first trip there. Again, a lot of that was about, you know, grieving and being, you know, African American and like I think about like I spent so much time about a word and I think about like watching, I talk about this in the book, like these little black boys surf. I don't think I've
ever in my life saying black boys surf. Damn. Until I went to Senegal. Hey, we're doing it. It was the most natural thing in the world. I'm like, yeah, because it is, because it is. Yeah. Because it is. You know what I mean? And it really struck me and it's really, really kind of, you know, beautiful way. And I think it probably will take a few more trips. Yeah. Until I'm like not amazed by that. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then I can, you know, figure out like what
that can is and what it means and everything. It's funny. I think of just the differing experiences. You know what you're sharing now reminds me of when Ryan Kudler, the director of Black Panther and Fruitvale, amazing, amazing director. He was, he was going to South Africa to do research for Black Panther, right? And I just, yeah, that's a good friend of mine. That's why I'm seeing you. Oh, yeah. So, so so Ryan reaches out to me, he says, Hey, I'm going to South Africa. Can you help me?
I was like, yeah, I'd love to. And so I said, Ryan, let me, let me hook you up with my people, people. Yes. Yes. Not tour guides. Yeah. Not like, no, I just want you to be with people. That's what he said. He said he was in it. Yeah. And so Ryan goes to South Africa. And I'll never forget one of my best friends was with them. And they're walking around in Soweto. And Ryan's walking around. And he has
like a, my friend described it to me. He's like, he's like, he's like, he's like, I'm in this guy. I mean, he's edgy man. He's edgy. He's like, this guy is edgy. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, I'm an I don't know. He's every time we turn a corner, it's like, he expects something to happen. Yes. He's edgy. And I was like, what do we? And then, and then they tell me the most beautiful story. And Ryan, Ryan told it to me. And so do my friend from a different perspective.
But he says they're walking around. They walk around the walk. And I don't know if this was day one or day two, but Ryan stops. And his shoulders relax. And he starts to cry a little bit. And my friend's like, yo, is everything okay? And Ryan goes, I've never felt this feeling before. I have never seen blackness expressed in its full range. Like, you know, it's like we're black isn't defined by something or not. Like no one looking at you because you are black.
Right. It might be because of your sneakers or your t-shirt, but not because and you're not out, you're not in, you're not, you're not old. You know, it was a weird, it's a feeling that I can't imagine because I don't, I can't imagine because I was lucky enough to grow up in South Africa in that in a cross-off family. In so we're to in. I'm like, okay. But when he described that it was the most poetic thing, what a gift it is to be able to see yourself as everything and anything.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think that's that when I'm listening to you, and even when you read it in the book, I feel you moving through it's almost. I want to question that a little bit though. Yeah. Yeah. And the reason why I want to question that is that's what I thought and maybe it's still true. But when I just told, told me about the bleaching and everything. Yeah. So what is like,
well, okay, this is my theory. This is my theory. Oftentimes we, we look to those who we think have like figured it out and have found like we look to those who inspire us is the easiest way to put it, right? I know this personally growing up in South Africa. Many of us looked at African-Americans and we were like, yo, that is it. I mean, I look at the struggle in South Africa, the Nelson Mandela, the Winni Mandela, the, you know, the all of a time. Would you do that if you have the range of
humanity? No, no, no, no, no, because what you're seeing is a glimpse, what you're seeing is a moment. Does this make sense? I could be wrong because I'm not a scholar in this, but I do think in some ways, it's because while there is still a struggle, it's not the same struggle. And so it sort of, it sort of feels freeing in a different way. And it sort of, it makes me aspire to you in another way. You know, so like, I remember first few weeks we were in New York, me, Joe OPO from Uganda, David,
friend of us, also from Uganda, but South African. We're walking through the streets of New York. We coming back from a soccer match. Cops pull us over. Mind you as the host of the Daily Show at this point, they pull us over. It was like on 11th Avenue and maybe just into the teams now. Cops pull us over carrying our sports equipment. We dressed in our sports gear. Cop goes, hey, where are you guys coming from? And we're like, oh, we're coming from a soccer game. And he's like,
where are you going? We're like, are we going home? We live uptown. He's like, you're walking? We're like, yeah, we're walking. He's like, it's midnight. Like, yeah, I mean, the game ends at midnight. He's like, you guys were playing soccer now. We're like, yeah, he's like, do you mind if I search your bags? We're like, no, go ahead. And he searches. And we're standing there, you know, like against the car and he's searching. And I can't explain this to you. We could not have
been more relaxed. Wow. And this all happened. And then we were done and we're like, all right, have a good night officer. And then we carried on and you know, Joe, and we carry, and now we carry on talking about the game. Joe's like, no, Trevor, you have to pass the ball in the middle. And then I paused us. I think like two blocks up. I paused us and I said, guys, guys, guys, do you realize what just happened there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they were like, oh, yeah, we got
stopped. And I was like, no, but because we haven't lived in this experience for that long, that to us, we treated and felt differently about because to us that wasn't out. Like police weren't our struggle in that way. Right. So we were just like, yeah, sometimes the cops need to search you. And we'll just keep it moving. Yeah. That's why I say it's not a scholarly answer. But I sometimes feel like it's like you aspire to a thing that's fixed in another world. And it seems like an
answer in another. And yours seems more layered and more complex and more difficult. So I have a view on bleaching. And I would encourage everyone to read the work of Professor Yarba Blay, who's done really great work on like West African communities in the diaspora. And in like the Black diaspora in bleaching, whether it's Jamaica, Nigeria, etc., colonialism did a number on us. Oh, yeah, definitely. Like colorism is so rife. Like I grew up seeing women bleached. And it was just
a very normal thing. You know, it wasn't until like I grew up and deconstructed. And it was just like, I feel like the middle passage, it's very clear. The tragedy and the trauma of that displacement. You know, you were taken to another country, whether it's in the Caribbean or in America. But the people that are still in Africa who stayed in my family who weren't taken, they don't, you don't necessarily do the unraveling of like what did colonialism and slavery do to us.
And I think it warped our sense of what is beautiful. Separate from African Americans in the media and stuff like that. Like Farah is seen as better. Right. And that is something that still hasn't changed. Do you know what I mean? I know women my age and young, I know Gen Z girls who bleached. Right. Did you guys have, I mean, I'm not so really ignorant, but for all of his like political impact in terms of Malcolm X. When anything that came out of that was like he made a lot of that
shameful. Yeah. Even though it still happens, you know, but like that whole like looking at yourself, like it, it, it, it, there was a stigma then from that point on among black people about like nose jobs, changing your eyes, doing certain. It's, I think that there's a key psychic difference where I'm not going to speak for all. Yeah. Of course. West Africans. But there's a perception like this is something I do as an act of social mobility. It's got nothing to do with like how I
actually feel about myself, my eboness, my your my my, my lure, whatever tribe you are. Right. It's something I do because I know in this world, especially in the country, I mean, if you are fairer skinned, you are treated better. And there's like studies on it. Like it's, of course, nice. I talk about all the time. Like all the faces of Africa, like Trevor, Tyler, like, you know, like, why is it that we the face of Africa that the West has bought into is mixed race? Because they're like,
we, that's what we want to see. Right. And Africans intuitively know that when you're like, and I'm big, you're a sleigh black and darker skinned, there's a trick. You're not going to get perceived as African-American, which is closer to power and opportunity in your mind. So in your country, status, yeah, status. So you're like, okay, I'm going to lie in my skin. And it doesn't, it's not, it's a very again, because race is constructed differently. Your skin is not necessarily
the basis of your racial or ethnic identity. It's not like you're tribe. Yeah. Yeah. Fully tried. Yeah. So bleaching your skin doesn't impact your tribe. But I think if you're in, oh, and American context. Yeah, that's like distance. You have a legacy of passing. Yeah. It's a whole because your tribe is defined by color in the US. And it isn't in Africa. You know, you know, it's always going to be your tribe. It's always your tribe. No matter.
It does not enough bleaching skin cream in the wild. That's going to stop me being about. Right. So I think there is that difference. But there is a sadness there because I think that sometimes they can be an arrogance of like I'd say as an African-Reds and diaspora. Oh, we were never enslaved. We lost so much. We lost so much as well. And we often have the arrogance is like, oh, we have our language. We have, but we lost a great deal. And I think one of the things we lost
was seeing ourselves in the mirror and feeling we are beautiful just the way we are. Whereas out here, you guys had the black power movement. And we're like, we're going to reclaim the thing that you have said is not beautiful. I wonder if like I'm still like, because you asked that question about, you know, that essay being unfinished. But not unfinished. No, no, no, no, no. I'm with you. I feel emotionally at least it was like unresolved.
And I think what I hear you saying, like when you hear it, when you say loss, that is something I obviously immediately relate to. And it's like, of course we had a music. You know, you know, we have that. But that's a real thing. I mean, there's been this musical exchange back and forth. You know what I mean? That is, you know, even happening now. But I guess if I'm honest, what I left wondering about is, is the root of this kenship actually a shared sense
of loss? You know what I mean? And if it is, is that actually enough? Is that kenship? You know what I mean? Like, is that okay? And when I was thinking about it, and I was writing, I was like, I don't think that's enough because actually, in fact, the way I phrased it was, or all we haven't commented is the white man. Like, that's like my mind. Like, that's how I process it. But you're saying something different. Yeah. You're saying something different. You're not saying it's the feeling inside
of you, you know, of having, because I'm going to say, we do have that. That's not a loss. I mean, that's why we go back. Yeah. That's why we go back. I mean, all of these people doing, you know, oh, my, my family's from here in Scotland, which is a very American thing. I'm from here in Ireland. And we're just like, you're at a certain point, it just disappears. Yeah. We just don't know. You know what I mean? It's been erased. And that feeling is a deep, deep wound. You know what I mean?
That's so many of us are chasing so much sort of, you know, we would invent stuff. It's interesting because you mentioned a lot the Jewish experience and the Jewish diaspora. It feels like to me that they actually have bondig on, on this feeling of loss. Yeah. And in ways that, yeah. Many people have contentious feelings about. Yeah. But it was like whether you're a Moroccan Jew, or a Jew, Polish Jew, we're going to be under this umbrella. Yes. I think loss can be, has great
kinetic energy. We talk about the tracing. It's funny. I think of all your work in many ways as tracing, you know, and every beginning of a chapter and every story that you tell in the book has a has a feeling of like go and see. Yeah. It really has a go and see. Yeah. See yourself. Yeah. Your book is getting banned. Go and see. You went to go and see. Right. You know, your people come from Africa. You have this identity and maybe you're connected. But go and see. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Yes. You know what I mean? The people of Gaza being bombed and the people of Israel are fighting for their survival and this conflict of ideas, but go and see. Yeah. And it made me realize how important a writer is, how important a journalist is, how important a story tell is because oftentimes we can't go and see. That's right. That's right. That's right. And there are a lot of journals and writers who won't go and see. Yeah. You know, even though,
you know, they they should. And this is like, again, you know, the book is written to my students. And this is like something I'm really trying to drill in them. You really have to touch the thing. Like you got to touch it. You know, you got to feel it. You got to experience it because the way it will occur for you will not be the way it will occur for somebody else. You know what I mean?
In its most specific, I think somebody with a different history with different things might have saw everything I saw in those 10 days and they would have written something totally different. You know what I mean? And so I think seeing it for yourself, running it through, you know, your own filters is crucial and key. You know, I know we're going to wrap up soon, but I was thinking. This is my black podcast. This is like, I'm in running. We're talking for like three days.
I have not. I mean, I have not done this. I've been I've needed to do this. We're fixing the diaspora. We love black bridge. I love this. I love that. That warm is my heart. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. It's beautiful. No, you don't want to think about it. I'm a send this to my friends. We want to tell you. I'm a send this like like my black friends. We don't want to be the we we black. I love that. I love that. I love them too much. We we black.
When I'm doing comedy out there, we be black. Love it. I love them because even over there, I tell my wife, I don't want too many African American friends here. Like there's a whole African American diaspora in Paris. Yeah. I just you know, I want to be around. Well, I'm a few I'm just fine, but I don't want to like I got to you know, see my people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You want to break it up? No, you want to break it up? Yeah. Yeah. I see somebody. Yeah. Exactly. I can't. You got to break it up.
Yeah. You got to break it up. No, no, no, no, no. Amen. This is what it's for. Yeah. And I I'll end by saying this to you. I think if you remove the accolades, if you remove your words, if you remove the publishing house, if you remove the smartness, if you remove everything we know about Tana Hasekot's, that book would fit in the backpack of somebody who truly sees other people as human beings first and foremost. And man, I wish we all thought like you.
I think we're all guilty of stepping out of it. But thank you, man. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for writing. Thank you for going and seeing where we couldn't. And yeah, man, I hope we hope we get to maybe we'll do it in Paris next time. Yeah, I would love it. I would love it. Thank you for the discussion. Yeah, man, thank you so much. Yeah. What now with Trevinoa is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.
The show is executive produced by Trevinoa, Senazi Amin and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannah Sprout. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.