Our calendar is the real-time expression of our goals and values , and so if you look at your calendar and it doesn't match who you want to be or what you want out of life , you should change something .
But , like your wife's boss you mentioned , if that's his values , if maybe he has a goal or maybe he's trying to create generational wealth so his kids will never have to work who knows ? So his kids will never have to work , who knows ?
I pass no judgment there , but the people that I'm for is where they feel like time is happening to them or their job is happening to them . They feel like they've lost agency . I want them to know that they're 100% responsible and they can map their calendar to the life they want . I think that's the key , regardless of culture , anywhere it's .
Does my calendar represent who I want to become ? Where it's ? Does my calendar represent who I want to become ? Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast , with your host , josh Hall , helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle . You love .
All right friends got a good one for you here . In this one , we are going to dive into a phrase that every web designer and web business owner is , whether you realize it or not , probably afraid of , and it's a phrase .
If it's not a phrase that has to do with websites being down or God forbid email being down , it's probably something to do with burnout can affect web designers and business owners , whether you are a solopreneur and a freelancer , doing everything yourself , or whether you're scaling and growing and becoming more of a true business owner .
Burnout can hit anyone at any time . It depends on how you are proactively fighting against it fighting against burnout and that's exactly what we're going to dive into in this episode .
I am super pumped to bring on the founder of Time Boss , which you can find out more about , Andrew Hartman , here , if you go to his website at timebossus to talk about burnout , how to avoid it and things you can do practically to make sure you are aware of what it looks like . That's something we're going to get into .
We're going to talk about the signs of burnout and how you can watch out for those to catch yourself , hopefully early on , how to protect your sanity and sustainability .
Side note , sustainability is like my favorite new word as an entrepreneur and as a web designer and business owner , because most people think about it too late in the game or it just takes a lot of work to get back there to be sustainable after you're already fried . So we're going to talk a lot about that .
Listen , in a personal note , I've been a self-employed entrepreneur for over 15 years and I absolutely still love what I do Now . The road has not been smooth but , all that to say , I've learned a lot about burnout and how to avoid it , and I've caught myself when things just become a little too much . I'm going to share some about my experience with this .
Things just become a little too much . I'm going to share some about my experience with this . We're going to talk about how to turn off your mind when you're done working , and even this new trend of four day work weeks and whether Andrew thinks it's a benefit or if it's actually leading to more burnout . All that and more is covered in this one .
Here's Andrew . We're going to talk how to avoid burnout , primarily by protecting your time , and he does have a free training for you , by the way . I highly recommend checking it out . I really think you're going to enjoy Andrew and his perspective and where he's at with balancing work and life and just doing this again sustainably .
Go to get that free resource at timebossus slash masterclass . It's a free training that you can pick up to help you be a great companion for this conversation , and all of the show notes for this one are going to be at joshhallco slash 341 links , full transcription , show notes and everything we talk about here is there for you at joshhallco slash 341 .
And until then , here is Andrew . Let's talk about protecting your time leading to avoiding burnout . Andrew , honor to have you on man . I have found , in my experience as a web designer of a decade plus and now coaching folks , two killers for web designers and agency owners time and burnout , and I don't think that those are unrelated , would you agree ?
Yes , they are absolutely tied together 100% .
Let's just dive in . How are they tied together ? How are these things ? Because I do feel like burnout for people who have not experienced yet . I think they just need to be warned that time is maybe the key factor in that . So I'd love to hear your perspective with how they are tied together .
Yeah , absolutely so . The way I think about time , it's the currency that gets us anything we want . So anything you decide that you want in life , it's either going to require money or if it's effort-based , like running a business or getting clients or getting projects done , whatever , it's going to require your time .
And so what people do is , when they kick off , they've got all the energy in the world , they're in performance zone , they're like I can make this happen , I feel good , I feel confident , I've got time to do it . And what happens is more and more things come in and it begins to compress our time .
And it's not just work , it's anything that's coming for our time , right , and it's fixed and it's finite , so there's only so much of it . And what people tend to do is , in lieu of taking a pause and saying , hey , how much time do I actually have ? You know how , what can I say yes to and what can I not say yes to ?
They end up going from performance into strain mode , where now they're pressing . Right , there's too much on their plate , they've said yes to too many things and they can feel it . There's that slight sensation in the back of their brain that says I am overloaded , but they keep pressing and they keep pressing . And what happens if we strain long enough ?
Right , we don't really have a true accounting of our time and we're straining , we're trying to get more done than we have time to do it . Eventually that leads into burnout , where , if you strain long enough , I mean truly um , your brain is this fascinating muscle .
You know , if we hold our breath , if you and I held our breath for the next five minutes , we would pass out , because our brain would make us pass out , saying hey , dummy , I'm going to take back over so you can breathe again . And strain is no different .
If we strain too long , our brain will literally take over and saying I am checking you out of the game . You do . You don't have enough in your tank to do this . You're not just going to experience burnout , you're going to experience being sidelined so that you can recover and then come back .
The challenge is , if we don't change our habits related to time , we just run that cycle over and over and over again , and then people end up going from performance to strain to burnout , performance to strain to burnout , over and over and over again . And that's really what I'm trying to address .
You have a background in web design , agency life and stuff like that . I'm sure you've seen , as I have , tons of agency owners burn out in a lot of different ways . What are some of the I was going to ask one of the signs of burnout . I think it's probably pretty obvious . I'm curious , from what you see like , what does burnout commonly look like ?
Yeah , uh , from your experience with other agency owners and stuff , and maybe yourself , yeah , it's a great question .
Um , it tends to look like , uh , two things . One , tremendous irritability , right , you just don't have , uh , the energy and where to fall to be present in that moment , so everything feels like a poke .
When everything feels like a poke , you know , when you're not excited about that next project coming in , there's a problem , right , you know , especially as a uh in a web design agency where you're often very project-based , if you don't have a strong recurring model built up . Um , so irritability is a big one .
Lack of caring so , um , when you begin to see diminished results and you just , you just have a really hard time caring , it's so sad , but it's truly a sign that you have been pushed so far . You are beyond the ability to even muster up energy to care to really deliver great results .
So those are the two emotionally present results I would say , things that people can experience real time . Other things you're going to see is really really horrible . Sleep . You know you're going to struggle sleeping . You're going to wake up in the middle of the night , stressed , thinking about things . It'll just be hard to stay asleep . Uh .
The other is , you can often experience just odd physical , um what would be the good word symptoms , that would imply you're burned out for me . So when I was , I was in a um , a web design agency , or web agency in general , but we did a ton of web design . This is back in the mid two thousands pre WordPress .
So we were , I mean , you know three days or before that it was the dream weaver days . We were charging a lot of money for very , very basic websites back in those days and um , and I was completely overwhelmed and I was experiencing real burnout and my the manifestation of that was I lost my sense of smell for six months . I wasn't sick pre COVID .
None of that . I was . I was otherwise healthy , I just was . I could feel it Like I knew it coming on and then , when it disappeared , I knew it was a function of stress and it was these red flashing lights that said it was really my body saying you got to stop operating this way , dummy , like it's got to be different .
And that was really the beginning of the entire process . I went on .
How long did it take you to go from starting your agency to getting to that point where burnout literally had physical symptoms ?
Yeah , so I joined the team . I joined a team there was about 12 of us in that agency at the time and it was within probably six months of me taking over on projects . So I became the point person . So effectively , I was the owner of making these deliverables happen . And that's when I was fully overwhelmed .
Too many inputs , too many details , too many things coming at me . Every single client had their own needs . They could care less about each other's needs , you know , and there was not . So everyone was very demanding and I just didn't have the mental models to deal with it . I didn't know what to do with all the inputs coming at me .
Was your ? Was the setup for burnout for you ? Was that self-inflicted in some ways or was it a product of just company boundaries Cause I re ? I asked this because I found that when I'm coaching other web designers now who have symptoms of burnout , or if they are feeling overwhelmed , like I'd say , probably 75% is actually their fault .
They just have terrible boundaries and don't have enough time management systems in place for them . If only there was a research resource for such , you know like there's . There are basically a lot of self-inflicted things and a lot of the problems that creatives have with clients are just because they haven't set boundaries and kind of empowered clients .
Is that fair to say , like , did that happen to you or was it just a by-product of the the life you were in and the agency model ?
That's a great question . I think it's . I think it's a bit of a combination of both , but I do think a fundamental rule that I live by is I'm a hundred percent responsible for my life , and so there were things that I was tolerating that ultimately led to it really going sideways . And you know , you think about clients .
I love what you said about , um , uh , empowering clients with bad behavior . I think the reality is , uh , constraints drive decision-making , and so if you have no constraints , then everyone's going to go . What's the simplest way that I can possibly get my need met ? And it's picking up the phone , it's calling Andrew , it's just getting trying to cut the line .
You know , if I don't , if I don't have any boundaries in place , then certainly that's going to impact me and that was definitely going on Most people .
What I've found in my experience and one of the primary things that we do in our program is I really intensely train people how to retrain relationships , because most people have just they've learned how to deal with you . They've learned how to just yell loud and get what they want or whatever it is that they're doing that's causing you to feel overwhelmed .
What I found is that most people want empathy and they want confidence . They want empathy that you care that their needs matter . They don't want a stiff arm . They don't want you to suddenly develop these boundaries where they feel like you're on . You know it's a zero sum game and we're on opposite ends of the table . They don't want that Right .
They want empathy , to know that their priorities matter , and they want confidence that it's going to be met in a reasonable amount of time . So we interpret it as , um we hear we think these are just whiny clients , that who think they're the only ones in the world and they want their needs met right now . That's not actually true .
It might sound like that , but what they're saying is I want you to care about my issue as much as I do , and I want to have reasonable , I want to have confidence it'll be done in a reasonable amount of time . And most people , most people that's a strong caveat . If you give them empathy and confidence , they will do it your way .
If you say , hey , this is here's the way that we operate , these are our rules , I'm going to get back to you in this amount of time . If it's on fire , call this number . You know people are just looking for handles to um get their needs met .
Now , that said , again the strong caveat there is there's going to be 5% of the population that are just terrible people and then you just have to decide is life too short or not ?
And if you want to keep working with them , you know , and I'm , I'm a big like life's too short If , if I do all the work to retrain that relationship and they're still unreasonable , I just I'm confident that the pie is big enough that there'll be other opportunities if I say no to this one .
Yeah , and you know you you said it right there in a really condensed and concise way which is those , those boundaries that we set up that protect us from time and burnout , are as simple as have a place for feedback , revisions in the web design world , content collection , a place for that .
One thing I teach in my business course is that clients can send in something anytime they want . If they want to do it on Friday at 9pm , go for it , but I'm not going to be active on Friday at 9pm and , like you said , the additional part to that is there's an emergency line .
If there's something that has an absolute fire , especially if a site is down or something like that , then there a a place for that . But that , like , honestly , it's as simple as that .
And then , like you have your boundaries with your time is , when you're active , you and the team are active , you have the place where all the communication goes that you get to when you're active , and then emergency line . Oh , no is there anything else missing in the agency world that can help with boundaries ?
oh , with boundaries . Yeah , you know , I think um .
Or time , I guess .
Yeah , and time in general . So one of the things I mean clients are definitely one , and I think what you described is perfect . The way the analogy I always give is it's like if someone came into your kitchen and there was no sink and they didn't know what to do with the dishes .
They just set them on the floor and you're like , well , why did you set the dishes on the floor ? It's like , well , there was no place to put them . But if you help , dirty dishes go here , clean dishes go up on the counter . People are just looking for paths .
You just have to get them . Hold on , let me bring my kids up so they can hear that . Because they're literally just they're like three plates on the ground .
People are just again constrained , strapped decision-making . If they get their needs met in a reasonable amount of time and they believe they feel the empathy from you that you want their priorities met , they'll do it your way . Um , but , and that goes the same with team . You know one of the in both in the web design business . I was in in uh .
I've been a COO for a number of uh software as a service platforms and we would interrupt each other all day long unless we create ground rules , and so that's another place where I think we get time back by being really thoughtful .
I use a term called shielding , so anytime you want to focus , you have to shield out the world , and a shield has a really specific function . It doesn't mean that the inputs are going to stop coming at you . A lot of people think like , oh , I'll just work late when it's quiet , and the reason why they do that is because there's nothing coming at them .
You know , late at night , right , most people aren't online . But the reality is , I mean , if you want to have a life that's balanced , if you want to have a family , if you want to connect with anything outside your work world , you have to learn how to work when it's noisy , when things are happening , and that's where the concept of a shield comes in .
And a shield can be as simple as going on Do Not Disturb in Slack or Teams and saying I'm going to be back online in two hours , but I need to go heads down and make this task happen . A shield can be as simple as having a teammate where you say , hey , tomorrow I need to go dark the entire day to make anything happen .
If any need comes in for me , could you please field it , and then we can go vice versa . But we can do some real deep work by really shielding each other from those inputs .
Again , the inputs aren't going to stop Clients are going to call , team members are going to have needs , servers are going to have alerts , whatever , right , there's so many of those things .
But I think we have to very proactively shield ourselves to really get focused works done , which , when we're in businesses like web design businesses , you can't knock out really strong design five minutes at a time where your brain is constantly not just task switching but focus switching , you know , actively focusing on different things , you're just not going to get
the work output that you want . That's going to earn referrals high quality work that's going to continue to grow your business .
We all know the feeling of being derailed from the flow state . And is there anything worse as a creative , when you're like , ah , I'm just in it , and then burn something , just rips you right out of it .
Yeah , and that's where you planning ahead . No-transcript thing is not blowing up . You literally don't have to look anywhere else , and so if you're in a flow state , the worst thing you can do is look at Teams or Slack or your email and boot up a bunch of different contexts than the one you're currently in .
That's going to pull you out of that moment , and so it's just so critical One to shield . Give yourself really good shields to allow you to focus . But then two , don't be a distracted monkey that just goes and looks in your email and sucks yourself out of it .
I really like this terminology of a shield . I've always had boundaries , but you're totally right . Like you can have all the boundaries in the world , but unless you have an actual defense perimeter , right ? Uh , this is very timely . My wife and I've been watching some world war ii documentaries , so I'm gonna go with the military terms .
But like , unless you have a fortress , a wall of uh , time , time wall , the great wall of time boundaries , like something's going to get through .
Um , I mean , like you said , there's , there's the simple tasks of like no notifications , airplanes on whatever it is Kids know , when I'm working as a I'm sure you've seen this , I imagine working from home like that became an issue when we had kids . I had to really get clear with my wife , like okay , this is a podcast time , so no interruptions there .
I mean even something as simple as that is like better communication . Personally , I've found to be a huge contributor to focus time and getting shit done . Basically .
Well , and that's the big idea , josh , of the whole concept of time boss is setting your future self up to be successful , thinking of your future self like an employee that that needs to be protected to do really good work . So your conversation with your wife is brilliant , conversation with your kids is brilliant .
Having a plan for your notifications is brilliant , being thoughtful ahead of time of what is the work that is the highest priority work that I need to get done during that time period , all those things so that when you show up , if you do that work as a time boss and then you show up at 8am your calendar's blocked . You know exactly what you're working on .
Your wife knows to hide the kids . Your notifications are off . You are in go mode , like you are set up to do your very best work and it's not and it's not because you're doing less or or you know you've practiced any mindful techniques or anything like that .
You've just set yourself up to be successful like you've literally made it almost automatic for yourself to do great work . And so that's the where I've come and what I developed coming out of that web agency and where I've been these sass platforms when I've been building teams and running operations is .
We need those rhythms to set our future selves up to be successful , because it's not going to happen . It's not going to happen by default . There's too much chaos , there's too many , too many things flying around , both in terms of what's happening in our business with our clients and just the world in general . Right , everyone wants our attention .
It truly is an attention economy and so we have to do that work to set our future selves up to be successful .
It goes back to what you said a little bit ago you have to own it . You own what comes into your sphere , yeah .
It is a hundred percent my responsibility . It's not , it's not my client's fault that I can't focus . It's not my boss's fault that I can't focus . I have to be an advocate for my needs and then I have to help those individuals understand hey , when , when I can set up myself to be successful , we're all going to win . We're going to get our best work .
If you only call me if it's on fire . Otherwise you put any updates or revisions or content you're delivering in email , you will allow our team to focus and do our best work and you will get the absolute best deliverables . You just have to . It's just a matter of communication . How do we make it a win for everybody for me to really manage my time ? Well ?
that's such an important point with this and I don't want to overlook it because I think a lot of people , like you said earlier , will think I don't want to seem like a jerk to my clients or make it feel like they're getting a less experience if I don't answer every time they call . But it's actually a total win , win .
Win for everybody involved because they will get a better product , faster , better experience , customer experience if you're not irritable and all burned out and just want to snap on them so like and I found , aside from the 5% that you mentioned , most people are so cool about that .
They're like oh my God , like I had clients be like I'm so sorry , josh , I didn't even didn't realize it was a problem . I'm so sorry about that . I will 100% send this in base camp instead of texting you . I'm like yes , thank God , a new life has just begun . Clients are understanding of that .
Right , and I think in a client-based business like a web design world or in coaching that I do , or anything , you have to set those ground rules on the front end . It is always easier to loosen up than it is to tighten up .
It's easier for you to give that client a little bit more leeway once you've established really good guidelines than it is to go in later in the relationship like you're suggesting , and it is much harder later .
And so certainly if you're in a tough spot now , the best thing you can do is get healthy and then eventually every new client that comes on board really set their expectations well on the front end and help them understand . This is going to be a total win for you . I'm going to crush great work for you , but it needs to be done this way .
Yeah , and for the clients if you have , you know , for a pool of clients who some , a lot of them , are crossing boundaries , maybe intentionally or unintentionally . The tip I give to all my students is say you have like a new support line that's going to help them get stuff done faster .
Like , just try to pretty it up a little bit , add a little , you know , add a little sweetness , that way it's not like , hey , stop freaking , texting me on Friday nights , but you say , hey , I'm so excited to announce that we have a new support line so we can get to stuff faster and make it a benefit rather than an awkward conversation .
That's kind of my tip around that .
That's a brilliant idea . I love that . I really love that .
You can clip it out and use it in time . Boss , all right , I want to hear about your rebound , andrew . So you went through six months of your , your physical manifestation of burnout . How long like ? Was it like an overnight thing that you were like oh my God , I can't taste anything ? Was it a gradual thing ?
Like I'm curious about that rebound process between you sensing something physical and then you rebounding and being more serious about your time ?
Yeah , that's a great question . So , sadly , I mean it was . It was very quick . It was one morning . I woke up , I remember very distinctly walking down the stairs and being like , oh , that's really odd , I can't smell anything and I wasn't sick , wasn't stuffed up , you know , and then it just kept going .
So that was the wake up call , but sadly I mean , as you can probably imagine , josh , I I had horrific habits and I didn't . I was , there were books out there on time management . I was looking for support but , um , it took a long time for me . It really did .
And the the challenge was there was nothing that was that could contend with all the complexity of my world . So I would read a book like Getting Things Done and I'm like , okay , great , I'm going to get everything out of my head and into a system . Getting Things Done is a great book about that and that's a plank of Time Boss .
It's a part of Time , boss , and I'm going to calendar block . Okay , that helps , that's a part of time , boss . But it was . It was really this , um , I mean , very startup MVP , uh , scientific method process of I'm going to , just , week over week over week , I'm going to make adjustments until I get this thing right .
And I sadly I mean I don't want to give anyone doom on this it took me maybe like 10 ish years to really figure this thing out , but it was an ongoing commitment of I will not go back to that I burnt out again . Even after that , even after I started this process , I would burn out again .
I was going to ask if it happened to have you relapsed . Yeah , Last .
The last time was 2016 completely self-inflicted wound Um , same symptoms or no . It was just like a like calling up my boss late at night and be like , hey , I think I'm gonna quit . Like this is I can't , I can't do this . And he was an amazing man , so kind , um , no clue what was going on .
It was mostly , it was mostly um , again self-inflicted , but that was the . That was the final straw . I gotta lock this , to lock this thing down .
Um , I cannot let stress , fear and anxiety persist in my world without doing something about it , without really paying attention to the results and figuring out what is causing that Um , and so that I mean ultimately , this coalesced down into this time boss framework , which is what I train people on now .
And it was um , it was I didn't build it for anyone else but me , like I really was trying to just solve my own problem . And then , um , it worked and I started going really fast , making big impact happen , but doing it with very low drag on me . Personally , it just was tremendous focus , tremendous piece .
Other individuals started leaning in or I started training my team to do that . They got great results . People outside the company started leaning in and asking me what is it that you're doing , like , how does this framework work ? And that's ultimately what led . I mean , it was a kind of a side project that took off .
I was , I would have told you I was going to be a COO of an early stage software company for the rest of my career , but then this pulled me in that direction to do coaching . I mean , maybe not dissimilar to your experience . You had the web design world and then now you can go back and coach people . Um , and so it's been .
It's been a great adventure , but truly the entire time , even today , when I coach , I'm thinking about 27 year old Andrew , who was totally lost , lost the sense of smell . What would he have needed ? What would have solved his problem and not taken him 10 to 15 years to get this thing right ?
What would have allowed him to make massive change in a six week period and then just apply himself to these new habits to help him get out of that . So that's really how I built it .
So it was a long journey , a long rebound . Did you do anything in that six month window when you had some physical symptoms the first time ? Did you do anything in particular six month window when you know you had some physical symptoms the first time , did you do anything in particular ? I'm trying to think of somebody who's listening to this right now .
I was like I all right , I'm there , what can I do ? Like this month , what would what would be almost like a initial thing to do ?
Oh yeah , um , I mean the . So the first thing I did was get everything out of my head and into a system . So I just was , I was letting stuff just , you know , pay rent in my head and hang out there all day long . You know , 3am I'd wake up and I'd have a post-it note next to my bed and I was writing things out as I was thinking about them .
Like I just there was so much in my head , and so the first thing I would recommend to anyone is get it out of your head and get it into a system .
Like you , you need to at least see it all in front of you , and that process may feel incredibly overwhelming because there may be a lot in there , but but the reality is there's a lot in there , and so it is absolutely a step forward to at least see it in front of you , then have it in your head , pulling you out of every moment again , adding to that
burnout feeling that you're feeling , and then from there , there's certainly steps that people can take , but I mean , surely there's a . I mean you can .
However , you want to share it out , josh , there's the entire framework for time losses available online and it walks people through from getting it out of their head and then how to make that actionable on their calendar .
I almost don't want to tell you just the one piece , because certainly it was helpful for me to relieve pressure , but I don't want to put anyone on a 10-year path .
No , but that is a really good point , especially for web designers who are primarily freelancers or maybe they have a couple of contractors . My audience are mostly solopreneurs and very small studios and teams .
But the fallacy in my mindset was that because I'm a solopreneur , I didn't really need official SOPs Right , because I don't want to take the time to write them . No one's going to look at them . But to your point , when I finally just , in Google Docs , wrote out processes , I was like , ah , it's gone , it's not in my head anymore .
It literally moves from your head to a document . I just recently , earlier this year , came out with a course on scaling for web designers and it was the first thing I talk about . It's why it's so important and what I say in there is what I'll reiterate here .
You have no idea how much weight and mental bandwidth is being sucked up from you because everything's spinning in your head . And when does it come out ? 3am , when you wake up and like , oh shit , I forgot that email , or like I got to remind this , like that's when those things come out that I've found before they manifest in a physical problem .
Yeah , I think that's brilliant , josh . Yeah , such a believer . And I think , even for ourselves , I think it's an odd thing we don't think , well , it's just me , like I don't need it .
But you know , even for me , like I run a weekly planning meeting every week using the time boss framework and it has a recipe and I and I I know what it is because I've run it so many times now , but at the beginning I just wrote it down so it wouldn't be stuck in my head . I have this .
I have this hobby theory that we all want to be , uh , third graders again , where there was no backlog , there was no to-do list , like I'm on the playground , I'm on the playground , I'm in class , I'm in class , I'm at home hanging out with my family , that's it . You know there's no like , and after this , I'm going to go do that .
You know it's like this . It was the moment when we had the most agency to do stuff without there being like a to-do list or a bunch of things that we had to do .
I think we all want to get back to that moment of just being fully present , to do one thing at a time , and the only way we get there is if we get everything out of our head and into some kind of system , whether it's SOPs or recipes for the work that you do .
If it's a backlog , that's just a massive to-do list of all the things that you know you have to get to just get them out of your head . I think for us to be fully present in anything , we just have to have a system that's holding those details that we trust that when we go back to that system is going to work for us . I think that's really critical .
It's interesting you mentioned the going back to like third grader kind of thing , because as entrepreneurs I think folks who get into entrepreneurship which every creative , every business owner , every freelancer is , whether you realize it or not , you're an entrepreneur now Most people don't know the heads up that it will never turn off completely .
I personally believe that , as much as I am pretty dang good at compartmentalizing things and I've been doing this for 15 years now and I've never been at a place of burnout , but I have had seasons of high stress and taking on a little too much but one thing I've learned is that it never turns off completely .
I would love to say I'm out of my office , I'm wherever you are , be completely . I would love to say , like I'm out of my office , I'm , you know , wherever you are . Be there I . I love that quote because it's like my goal .
I don't always hit that , as we all do , but I do feel like I've heard it said recently that there's like a refrigerator sized hum going on in the back of our mind . As a business owner , I was like that's it , that is like we're all going to have it . When you're a business owner , it's inevitable but you can do .
I feel like the time boss framework , all sorts of methods to at least get like 99 percent of uh , the ongoing bandwidth out of your head , compartmentalize it yeah , a great way , I might say .
It's so , like you know , right now do you disagree with that ?
do you think you could turn it off completely ?
so it . It's a um . I would distinguish between like task and work and care for the thing right . So for me , what I , what I have realized , is that I can't work . Problems , um , very specific problems , I'd have that , have a clear definition of done with half my brain . I need to be all in , fully present .
Now , you know , when I'm in the shower which we all have our shower time you know , the one times when we can't be on our phones and or anything else , the thoughts that come always go back to business . They always go back to how's time boss ? You know , for me , right now , in this season , how's time boss working ? How can we make it simpler ?
How can we make it easier for teams to get involved ? Whatever , you know , whatever the thing is , I'm , I'm chewing on Um . I do think that's true , but I think that's an indication of value . You know , it's an indication of I care deeply about this thing . I really love it .
You know , when my my wife and I she , uh , she's my business partner when we go on dates , we talk about time boss , at least part of the time , and sometimes we'll say , all right , let's stop talking about it .
But the reason we do is not because we're workaholics , it's that we really really care deeply about this thing that we're giving our life to , you know . So again , I think it you have to distinguish between this thing is dominating my life when I'm not working and this is just the thing that I care about and I want to think about it .
It's a thing that I believe in or I want to advance . I think I think you just have to have some distinction between I never stopped working and I never stopped thinking about it because I care about it .
Years ago when my wife and I got married and she kind of saw how I worked as an entrepreneur and so we got married in um 2015 .
So there was definitely more work life balance issues back then and my in my journey I was definitely working a lot more and was not as present mentally , but what I learned to do and that we kind of came up together , which is just super goofy . But I basically just categorize different types of work .
I would have like lurk , which was just learning style work , like if I was going through a course . It's a different feeling . Like you mentioned , um , I had FERC , which was fun work . It was like I really enjoy this . I'm cool with typing onto my laptop at 9 PM at night because I'm loving this .
This is something that I would probably do if I wasn't doing this anyway . And then there was work . There was like oh . And then there was Dirk . There was draining work . I had all these little different goofy forms of work , but they actually really helped both of us . I would tell her , like I got some Dirk to do , I'm going to be a little drained .
I got a website migration . We got email issues . I am I can easily . I can easily turn that off when we're done , whereas it's the FERC that I have trouble with where it's like I , whereas it's the FERC that I have trouble with where it's like I'm having a blast , I'm loving this like , and when it is your business , as you talked about it's your baby .
So , yeah , I've learned to give myself some grace with that too , but as long as it is building me up versus tearing me down when it comes to the type of work I'm doing yeah , the language I use is , and what I hear when you talk about you know , ferc as an example I love that word is .
Uh , the language I use is , and what I hear when you talk about you know FERC as an example I love that word is the language I use is high , sustainable pace . You're looking for the pace that you can run at forever . Think about it a marathon , where you're optimizing for time . You know it's not a . It's not a a .
You know white knuckling grind , it's not a mad dash sprint , like you're really trying to find what is that pace that I can really keep at . And so it sounds like for you , ferc does that right , it , it , it adds energy . At the end of that task , you're like , yes , I love this , like you feel fired up .
Now the question there then becomes the only thing I would lean into on that one , josh , if you and I were chatting about it , is Coach me .
Let's do a coaching session here .
Well , no . The question I would ask is are you upholding the other commitments in your life ? Is your wife excited about you doing FERC at 9 pm , or does she want to connect with you ? Or do your kids need you , or whatever ? And if not , again , if you are wholehearted , all in and it works for the stakeholders in your life , go for it .
I tell people all the time you can work 80 hours a week and be at your highest sustainable pace , and you can work 20 hours a week and be utterly burnt out . Time has no bearing . The duration or quantity of time has no bearing on the drag it has on you .
It's 100% a function of what do you want out of life , and is that mapped to your calendar in a way that is going to be sustainable ? If it's not , you need to make a change . But I don't hear that from you . But in general , that's the conversation that we have .
Yeah , that's very interesting . I didn't think about it in that perspective . But I mean , I think a lot of lifestyle entrepreneurs have learned it's all seasonal , there's seasons of hustle . I'm working on a course I'm launching , going to be working a little more , but I have definitely learned to plan around that .
And as a family man now I have three kids under six and what we've learned to do is I , just my wife's not in the business like yours is , but she we've done a really good job more recently .
At like , every Sunday night we look at the week ahead , big projects , big goals , and that has been revolutionary , particularly with time , because she knows like , all right , it's a busy week , we're not probably not going to be doing as much as we might normally , but the week after it's zoo on a Wednesday , or take a whole day off , or you know that's
personally . That's how I've learned to to deal with those ebbs and flows of like hustle , season , chill , season , hustle , chill Each one of the like . Sometimes , if I chill too much , I want to get back on it , especially if I'm doing work that I mostly enjoy .
But obviously I've caught myself personally being like okay , I'm at a little too much or the worst as a parent is when I'm like typing and then I look over and my kids are playing by themselves and I'm like I don't need to be doing this and this is the only day they're going to be this age at this time , right now .
So heads up for anybody who's in that season . It's so important to catch yourself . It goes by very fast . Yeah , yeah . So , I yeah , go ahead .
Oh , I was going to share . I think your weekly meeting that you do with your wife is brilliant and what I love about that . I mean , that's true , that's that's we talk about . Time boss .
Those are the type of habits that I think are so powerful Because , if you think about it , the alternative is you just kind of run into the week and let's say , you know Monday is going to be a late night , but you and your wife didn't have that meeting . Now there's that tension of , hey , josh , it's dinner , what are we doing ?
Like I , the kids need a bath , or you know , you feel this tension . And now not only is there tension in your , in your prime relationship with your wife or whoever the stakeholder might be , but it's pulling you out of the work that you actually have to do .
So you're not only are you not present to the work , you're feeling tension in your relationships , whereas if you do that work , if you have really good rituals and rhythms built in where you're planning ahead for your future self and for the stakeholders in your life , you care about everybody's on the same page , then you can just hit that work and make it happen
and you're fully present to it , whether it's FERC or TURC or DERC I don't remember the words . I'll have to write those down . I'm gonna go back and listen to write those down . I really like that , but anyways , I love that . The other thing you it is always . You are always swinging past center of that pendulum . Right ?
You will never run at your perfect , high , sustainable pace , and we shouldn't even expect to . And so there's going to be times when we lean in too hard and we're like whoa , that's too much . Like I'm , I need to crank this down a notch . And there's other times where you're like you know what ? I'm not getting the results I want for my business .
I've got to crank it up a notch . And I think that's the power of having rituals in your life where you're doing that type of reflection , because then you just course correct , right , maybe that's I need to crank it up a notch .
It's I need to work more time , or it's I need to get higher leverage things onto my calendar that are going to make a bigger difference for my business . Or if you're going too hard , it's maybe it's I need a little bit more of the fun work and less of the hard work , or I need to work a little bit less .
I need a little bit more of the fun work and less of the hard work , or I need to work a little bit less . I need to be more present with my kids . There's never going to be , I think .
I think what I was looking for when I was struggling the worst was I was looking for the silver bullet of like tell me how many hours I'm supposed to work and I'm not going to work a second more . And that's not the way it is at all . That's just not the way the world works in .
In any business , even if you're , whether you're a solopreneur anywhere , it's never going to be that clean . And so I think we have to very have a very adult relationship with time , week over week , to say what , what are my values , what are my goals , what are the needs of the stakeholders in my life , and how do I map that to my calendar right now ?
And that may be different next week and the week after , but how do I map it to my calendar right now ?
How do you feel about the wave and the um , the trend of four day work weeks ?
It's funny . I mean I think of time very , uh , at a very base level . It's just I call it inventory or currency . So whether you do it across um five days or four days , it doesn't change your habits related to time . Um , it's simply a constraint that drives decision-making .
So I think when people , what people are experiencing if they move from a five day work week to a 40 work week is they're experiencing the Delta , or the difference between five days and four days , and so there's this psychological like hack for a season that's going to cause them to lean in harder because , oh , I got to get all this done in four days .
So I need to be a little bit more aggressive .
I need to have a little bit more power . It could cause burnout potentially if someone's going harder .
A hundred percent . And the worst thing , Josh , is they're going to acclimate to the four-hour workweek and all their bad habits are going to come back and it won't matter . So I think it is a . My strong hypothesis is that it is a .
My strong hypothesis is it is a temporary phenomenon that those studies are showing of a cognitive hack that is making people feel like they need to hustle a little bit more to get work done within those four days that , once they acclimate to that new model , it's . There's no magic in five days either , right ?
Five days is a totally arbitrary amount of work days that we've all just kind of agreed to . So , at a very base level , it's just inventory . It's the hours I have available , it's the currency , the hours I have available to get anything done I want .
Whether that happens in five days or four days or six days or two days , it comes down to your ability to shield your time , to be totally focused , to prioritize the right things , to be in line with the stakeholders in your life , all the things that we're talking through today .
That's the game .
It's not . It's not the number of days that makes the difference .
Yeah , I'm curious to see . I feel the same way . I've always been a little like Hmm , we'll see , let's see how this plays out for everybody . And with my team they're all contractors . I tell them I don't care when you work , how you work , wherever you work , as long as the thing is done by the deadline , cool .
If you can take four days off a week , awesome , but whatever . But the four day thing I'm curious to see if they're going to be doing some studies . Maybe there's already some studies out there , I don't know . Would the pros and cons of that ? I did not think about that causing burnout , but I think you're totally right .
It's going to cause some people to be like , oh my gosh , they're going to feel like they're a nurse who's working like three twelves or whatever it is . And then what happens the next three days ? You're like zonked . You can't enjoy your time off if you just destroyed yourself for four days .
I I am much more of a sustainable pace guy as well , where I'd rather not work five days every week but in most cases have a Monday through Friday thing , not exactly nine to five , but give and take like . Those are my average windows of work , with days off in between . I cause I don't actually like having three full days off week to week . That's .
That tends to kind of deter my personal flow . I also love what I do , but the point where about I'd say probably at least 85% of my work is FERC at this point so I feel in a good place , but yeah , so I almost don't want to lose that for three days a week .
Well , it isn't interesting , josh , to think like if you come and you just spread peanut butter over you and me and everybody else and say you got to work in four days and that's the way it is , like you lose all the nuance of the individual personality that , like you are finding your highest sustainable pace .
I can hear in your voice like you're doing amazing work , you love what you do . Why would you change anything , you know ? But and so I I just have such a strongly held belief that each individual has a pace .
I think there are some basic things that we can do , some basic habits that we can put in our world , and they really center around a weekly planning meeting Again that time boss moment to plan out your week on behalf of your future self , and then a daily review meeting to just stay on plan , help , help , close down each day .
Other than that , I feel like each person needs to find what is it that's really going to make them tick I ? There's people that have gone through the program that'll work 12 , 14 hour days . It's actually um . I don't know if you know Sahil Bloom , but he talks about um to be productive , but like a lion .
Like a lion will sprint and run so fast to get the kill . And then I mean , if you've ever been to a zoo , the lion is never awake . The lion is always you know what I mean the one animal you want to like .
Look at you and roar is always asleep and half the time his butt is just pointing at you while you're looking at him , because lions are ferocious and so focused . But then they spend so much time resting , but it allows them to really accomplish the mission . If someone does that and it works for the stakeholders in their life , it matches their values .
They feel fully alive . It's FERC 85% of the time , or whatever . Why would we ever shift that person to work a different way ? Right , you know , like why would we ? Why would someone producing that type of outcome ? Why would we ever shift their work style ? And so I love what you said on with your team , guys , let's meet at the end .
This is the outcome I want . Work it any way you want . Optimize it to give me the best deliverable you possibly can . Be on Mars for all I care , but let's just meet at the end , when it's due , with the requirements that we had and make it amazing . That's brilliant work , I think that's three-day work , four-day work any of like that , I would punt .
I would much more advocate for teams to get really good at describing what done means and what success looks like and then training people to really run at their sustainable pace to make that happen .
This has prompted me to reach back . I have a local friend here , matt Gartland , who's the CEO of Smart Pass passive income with pat flynn I'm not sure with that brand , yeah , but um , he , they moved to a four-day work week I think two years ago .
So I'm gonna check in with him , do a little little post up on that and see , like how that's going , because I am curious . Maybe it's different in the corporate world than the entrepreneurial remote world , because I could see it working well in corporate when people are driving to an office and then they're getting home at 6 or 6.30 .
I could see a four-day workweek benefiting them more so than work-from-home entrepreneurs , particularly because I've got some friends and family in corporate and I remember years ago just saying when I was running , when I started in this business , I was like when I am in my office I am going hard . I mean I'm a chill entrepreneur but I work .
When I'm in my office I'm not here dicking around , I am working . And one of the guys he used to work in Manhattan somewhere I have some family in New York and he was like I do like two hours of work every day , so like he's just literally just playing Tetris and doing whatever for six hours a day while he's there sucking up energy and time .
So in that case I guess I could see a draw for it . But yeah , maybe it's just not as beneficial in the entrepreneurial world because , like you said , it doesn't matter that . That's not the issue . Like the four days a week is an issue . It's like the energy , the output , the sustainable pace . I couldn't agree more .
Yeah , and shielding right , like it's just , if you can shield four to six hours a day , you're probably going to be really successful in life . You're going to do great , great work , and then you know there's other time available for busy work , emails , all the other things . But most people struggle to do more than eight hours of , like intense focus .
I mean the average person is probably in that four to six range , and so if you can just structure a world where you can make that happen and still be available , I mean again it , I just it . It feels I'm unsure , but it feels short lived . The other side of it too is those you have longer days where people are coming home beat , you know .
So I again I have such a high opinion of of an individual's ability to find their highest sustainable pace and just plug in and knock that out day after day after day .
That's what I want to empower people with , that I those those large kind of again peanut butter spreading all over everybody , I think those are the things I get a little bit skeptical of that I am quite looking forward to keeping an eye on this , now that we've kind of drilled into this , because I do think it's an interesting , fascinating wave .
That yeah , I don't know if the results and metrics have been oh yeah , I don't I guess I haven't seen anyone that have been like this was absolutely revolutionary for us . I don't , I don know , I haven't personally seen that .
That's the cool thing about as an entrepreneur , though , like you've really , you get to do , you get to make your own schedule , take ownership , but that's also the problem too , I did .
There was one question I wanted to make sure I don't forget , and that is to the creative who just has so much um ownership in doing everything and they are controlling everything and they have the hardest time giving up anything , whether it's delegation , hiring , scaling or even just reducing their time , because they just do it all .
I don't know , do you have like a mentor , do you have like a mentor minute for that person who just does all of it , takes pride in doing all of it , but you're seeing like this , is you ? We know where this is going to lead ?
Yeah , I asked this because I often see this and I'm never quite honestly sure what to say I guess it depends on the personality type , but um , yeah , that worries me when I see people who are just really proud of doing everything and I'm like everything and I'm like well , talk to me in a couple years , let's see if you still feel that proud .
Well , I love your questions . Brilliant , josh . That's the mention moment I have . I would say tell me , tell me what you want in life . That would be the question , because I think what they want in the next five minutes is they want to feel like they can do it all . It's craftsmanship , it's , it's a representation of me .
They would probably have a lot of things to say like that on the creative space and we have a lot of creatives go through time , boss that I that are not dissimilar where the creative process is a hard thing to manage with time . But I love you stretching out the timeline right . The time horizons are so important . Let's talk about a year from now .
Where do you want to be ? Would you ? Do you still want to be doing all these things ? How's that going to look into your life ? How's that going to look in this for the stakeholders in your life , for your spouse or your partners or anyone else that might be involved ? Um , let's talk five years in the future . Is that where you want to be ?
Well , you know what ? No , I don't . I really . I know I need to scale . I'm just , you're just kind of like , you're just asking the next question , the next question , next question , and what you'll find is that most of us are living in this two week bubble . I call it the sonic boom , like you .
Just it's a sonic boom of tasks and expectations and requests and I need to do this and I need to do that , and we don't really look beyond that to think about our future selves as this different person than who I am now right , it's that has that will be absolutely subservient to whatever decisions I make right now .
Right , and if I think about that as another person let's say for that person they had a spouse or a partner who was directly impacted by that continued decision they're making every single day and they feel it every single day my guess is that person would be very likely to change because of that individual and their care for that person .
Well , if we can separate our future self as this other human who has no agency over the decisions I'm making but will be totally subservient to the ramifications of it , then we're much more likely to make decisions on behalf of that individual . What does that person need ? You know what , six months from now ? I don't want to be doing this , okay .
Well , if that's true , what decisions do we need to start making today for you , six months from now , to not feel like you're burning out and not feel like you're constantly behind the eight ball ?
Might we look at delegating , or might we look at time boxing , some of these activities that are just bleeding all over the place for you to give you some constraints to drive your decision-making . I think your intuition of the time horizon is everything , if , if it's , they can probably tolerate it over the next two weeks .
But if you really spread out that time horizon of can you tolerate ? Can you tolerate the next six months ? Do you want to be here in six months that's likely when you're going to see change ?
yeah , it's like I used to used to run . Uh , it's like running , like there's there's jogging , running and sprinting . So I guess I do it like that as I'm visualizing this . It's like you can sprint for a little while , but how long do you want to sprint ? Maybe you should back it down to running and then , ideally , you're jogging to keep it sustainable .
It's long distance runners generally don't sprint , they . They jog Right . Um , yeah , that's good stuff , man . I'm curious too . When did the term burnout come into play , do you know ?
This is just very top of mind for me because recently went out with my dad and my brother for Father's Day lunch and my brother works from home mostly , but he's been in the corporate world . He does like agency work in corporate . We were talking about work-life balance issues and how corporate is . It's tough for me .
I was never in corporate so I just don't understand some of the issues that go on in corporate . But I imagine you see some of that issues that go on in corporate , but I imagine you see some of that in that world . But I just kind of cause .
We were talking about generationally how my generation I'm an old millennial , but even below me there's much more of a focus on work life balance , whereas my parents they probably didn't even that , probably wasn't even a term . I don't even know if they knew of the term burnout . Do you know when that came into the zeitgeist man ? That's a great question .
I don't even know if they knew of the term burnout .
Do you know when that came into the zeitgeist man ? That's a great question . I don't know personally . I know that I said out loud it was 2000, . It would have been 2007 , 2008 . I know that I said out loud in that season that I was burnt out or burning out , so you made it .
It came from you . Andrew coined the term burnout .
We've got it on record . It was . I was aware . I mean it is a good point . It is a good point , like even my parents . It's been interesting to talk about time boss , cause they don't totally get it cause they come from a different generation , but I do think the modern generation it's , it's um , it's a full spectrum of life .
Right , we're not just workers . You're a dad , I'm a dad , I have kids that I really care about and and , just like you , mine are 16 and 13 now . They've moved so quickly through those younger years and I've got two summers left with my daughter before she's off to college and wherever , and I want to suck the marrow out of that .
And I don't get that by working constantly . I get that by prioritizing time with her as well . So I think that there's a . I think that there was an era of American life where we grinded and grinded and grinded and we all just assumed it would be better in retirement , and then all the boomers retire and our parents are generally .
Dying in three years on the beach , yeah , or unhappy they're , they're rotting on a golf course , some of them are going . My dad , my dad , sold his dental practice and then went back to work .
He went back to doing dentistry because he he had a ton of time , you know , and saying my dad , my dad was always present , he was very loving , but he but I don't think he would have , um , I don't think he would have thought of work-life balance in the same way in that season . And so for me , I just think there's a .
I think there's a modern realization that work is not it . In fact , there was a . There's a saying in my family that the work is the reward and that we're not just grinding to get to that next phase , but even the work itself is a part of our experience of life . I mean , for you , you doing 85% of the fun work I guarantee makes you a better dad .
I guarantee when you're done in the office you are like , wholehearted , fully present to your kids . You haven't been torn down all day where they're getting the scraps of your life , and I just think there's a modern value for that full spectrum life , not just work .
That's changing the conversation and making burnout a stigma that people don't want to be associated with . That's interesting .
Yeah , no , I totally agree . Yeah , I think , probably the past two generations . Yeah , it's very interesting because I feel like I guess some are , some are probably the workaholic type , but then some are just like , well , you clock in , you clock out . Why is there ? Why do you need to think about work after that ?
But but I was just kind of , I was just thinking about that more generationally with this idea of work-life balance and um and burnout , and culturally , of course , like my , my wife and I met her . She worked at Panera and , uh , her boss was this Indian guy and he his daughter was born .
He went to the hospital , made sure she came out okay , and then went back to work , like he worked and worked and where he had like the Indian work ethic that you could not break um for better or for worse . So there's cultural aspects to this too , of course . Yeah , I've just been really in this stage of my life too .
I'm I I've really and having a global audience , I serve people now all over the world . So I'm finding that there are people who have different levels of hustle , different styles of hustle . For example , australians tend to be pretty chill entrepreneurs .
For the most part , they're going to be like ah , good day , mate , I'm going to go surf and I don't need to bust that project out . I'm like , wow , I would never do that . I would definitely totally get that done before . I did that Not to pick on my Aussies , but you know , there there is a difference .
And then , like some British people are like just workhorses . I have to tell them , like freaking , take some time off . I know it's raining 24 seven , but do something fun . So there's a lot of that too . I don't know if you experienced that in time , boss .
Yeah , absolutely , and that's where I was saying . You know , somebody can work 80 hours and be hard on fire and someone can work 20 hours and burn out . It just comes down to what you want in life . Like our , our calendar is the real time expression of our goals and values .
And so if you are looking at your calendar and it doesn't match who you want to be or want you , what you want out of life , you should change something . But , like your wife's boss you mentioned , if that's his values , maybe he has a goal or maybe he's trying to create generational wealth so his kids will never have to work . Who knows ?
I pass no judgment there , but the people that I'm for is where they feel like time is happening to them or their job is happening to them . They feel like they've lost agency . I want them to know that they're a hundred percent responsible and they can map their calendar to the life they want . That .
I think that's the key , regardless of culture , anywhere it's . Does my calendar represent who I want to become ?
That's a really good point .
Because you will become the things that we give our time to , will shape us One hundred percent , it's guaranteed , yeah we give our time to will shape us 100 , it's guaranteed .
Yeah , in the case of my wife's boss , anoop , like I could tell he liked running a tight ship and that panera was awesome they were . It was always super clean , always really efficient . I would see him walk around and just have like this yeah , bob in his head . Like I'm proud of this joint so yeah , you're totally right , man . Uh .
Well , andrew , I've really enjoyed this chat , man , man , this has been awesome , very timely . I think time management talks are always needed , like quarterly at least , just to have some good reminders .
I mean , there's some I'm really doing mostly what I absolutely love to do , but there are some things that I've kind of let slip a little bit and I've caught myself , especially in my season of life , where I'm like I could be a little more present , I could do some more instead of doing work .
I don't have to do All that to say tell us about TimeBoss , when should we go ? You mentioned the framework . Is that a paid thing or do you have a free resource ? Where should everyone go ?
Yeah , so we have TimeBoss is a total believer in giving away the information for free . Implementation is the hard part . So if you go to timebossus forward slash masterclass , it's a 90 minute overview of the framework .
It really walks you through how to run a high quality weekly planning meeting , how to run a high quality daily review meeting and that's really it . It is a very simple set of habits that has tremendous emergent value . So if people are a self-implementer , highly recommend that timebossus forward slash masterclass .
And then for those that need more help , who feel like they're in a tough spot and they really want to transform their relationship with time , some spectrum between where I am today and maybe where I was when I was 27 .
We have a six-week coaching cohort which people can jump in and truly in six weeks you can this can be different in six weeks Shocks people that that's possible . But it really is just habit change . So we spend the first two weeks undoing all the bad habits you currently have , in the next four weeks installing new habits . You do that with a group .
You get group accountability , you get personalized coaching from me and people make change . So but again , I highly recommend people start with a masterclass . It's a . It's a great way to just get a sense of the framework and see if it might be something that's actionable in their life .
Awesome , heck . Yeah , dude . Well , we'll have all those linked in the show notes masterclass cohort , and I know you have a digital course as well , so we'll have everything linked in the show notes , man . Thank you for your time , andrew . This has been great and I'm so happy to chat with you on the other side of all this .
I think you're doing very , very important work . So really cool cool chatting with you . Thanks so much , josh . Appreciate it . I hope sincerely . My web designer friend , this has helped you maybe not feel alone if you are feeling a little burnout or if you just needed some practical help on like , well , how can I implement this ?
I really do hope this conversation helped . I took a lot away from this one . It reaffirmed a lot of what I believe about the importance of work-life and life-work balance , so I really enjoyed this and I hope you did too . I hope I would actually love to hear maybe your favorite takeaway or one of the takeaways from this .
You can do that by leaving us a comment for the show notes for this episode , which is going to be at joshhallco , slash 341 . For the show notes for this episode , which is going to be at joshhallco , slash 341 . And to connect with Andrew to see what he's up to .
Go to timebossus and , as I mentioned in the intro , he does have a free training for you which you can pick up at Josh or , excuse me at timebossus slash masterclass . It will also be linked at joshhallco slash 341 . Can't wait to hear from your friends . Enjoy Cheers to getting more time back so you can have more time listening to the podcast .