How many steps do you want a client to take to book a call ? Because obviously , the more steps that there are and they book a call , they are highly qualified . They have jumped through hoops Okay , that is an easy sell .
Versus how easy do we want to make this for them so we can just have a conversation with them and potentially try and sell them on the phone ? I think that's where I'm currently at is trying to find that balance , because Got you Welcome to the web design business podcast with your host .
Josh Hall , helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love .
Hey friends , welcome in to this episode of the web design business podcast . Got a treat for you . In this one . I'm so excited to bring on a fellow web design business coach in every meaning of the word , tristan Parker , on the show in this one where we did not have an exact topic we wanted to dive into .
This was a very , very wide ranging chat , basically just me and Tristan having a digital drink across the pond , as he's in the UK and I'm here in the states Just about web design , web design trends , the industry , the landscape of the industry . Right now .
We get into a lot of things about how to choose the right tools for you , how to sell to clients , especially if you're early on all the way from processes and Tristan has a really interesting process for weeding out clients with discovery calls and having a contact form in his booking calendar link , which is really interesting that we get to .
So a lot of things that were covered in this conversation to help you with your web design business , no matter if you're starting out or if you are more established and you're looking to kind of take things to the next level here . So really excited to bring Tristan on . You can find out more about him if you go to his website at Tristan Parker dot co .
Dot UK that is his personal agency site . Cool thing about Tristan is that he is still active in the web design world , building sites as an agency , and then he's also teaching as well over at the agency alchemist dot com .
So a lot of cool things that Tristan has going on , and he's got some different experience for me in both the agency world and the teaching world , which I was really excited to learn from here too . So Tristan's coming on . Next , before we do dive in , something that we talk about is the importance of having a mentor and having community in your journey .
It is so difficult when you get into web design to know what to do , what to offer , what tools to use , what steps are next in your journey , when you should scale , when you should scale back , if you should even scale , if you should niche , how to market your business All of those questions and more .
And , as you know , if you are not in a community yet , it is a lonely venture . Whether you're a web designer , whether you're an online marketer , online entrepreneur , it's all . It's lonely business and I don't want you to be alone and , quite frankly , you're only going to go so far by yourself .
I experienced this when I was taking pride in being a solo printer . I did everything myself and learned all the lessons the hard way and had no one to relate to and bitch to when I needed somebody to talk to .
So , on that note , I want to give you the mentorship you need and the community you need , and I have that for you in my community , web Designer Pro . It includes not only all of my web design courses that are going to help empower you with no matter where you are in your journey , but I'm telling you the community is top notch .
You've probably heard me talk a lot about it recently . A lot of the recent guests have been community members in Pro and I coach you directly .
You have a direct line of access to me and I'll answer all your questions , no matter where you are in your journey , and I'm getting close to potentially opening up some even more intensive coaching options for those who would want it inside of Web Designer Pro .
But for right now , you can have a direct line of DM access to me and we often do a lot of loom video back and forth . So all that to say , I would love to see you in Web Designer Pro . If that sounds good and you are not wanting to be alone and you want to have a proven path , you can go to joshallcoco To try Pro out .
We do have a monthly option , so you can just go month to month and I'm telling you right now the results that you'll get within the first 30 days . I think you're going to be amazed at how fast you can grow your business with the right support . So joshallcococo , without further ado .
Here's Tristan , let's talk all things web design , sales processes , tools , all the goodies on what's working now , web design to help you Enjoy All right . Well , tristan , I think we had I don't know how many reschedules and wild things happen to get this interview lined up .
It's been like two months of my Wi-Fi , my internet just stopping working and sickness and everything else , but we did it . We're here . So pleasure to have you on man .
Yeah , it's awesome to be here and thanks for taking the time to chat . I think it was like four reschedules in total .
It was a record . It was a record , I think it was two apiece . It was a two apiece . I had a conflict the first one and then , like I said , we were like five minutes before our interview , the internet just wasn't working . Something happened with our internet and then , yeah , you had a couple , but by golly the universe did not want us to talk .
But we're here , which means it's got to be a good one . I feel like , for as many setbacks as you can have , it means the opportunity is going to be sweet . So I'm really excited to chat with you , man .
We're so similar with what we offer web designers and our students with help on the business side of things , and you have some stuff that I don't do and I have some stuff that you don't do .
But one reason I love talking to other web design coaches is I think we have a unique perspective on what is working well and what's maybe not working , and just the perspective of the industry . Do you kind of feel like that too ? I feel like that's something I appreciate . What do you appreciate about being a web design coach ?
I mean , for me , the main thing that I appreciate is actually having the opportunity to give almost give back . I always think back to when I started and just being in this environment , which was so unknown . I mean , I knew how to design websites , but everything else that comes with running a web design business I had no idea and I hated being .
I guess just having no idea what to do is a really scary thing . And so if I can just give back , even just a little bit , to someone that feels that it's in a similar position , that feels like they have no idea what they're doing , how to get clients , how to run a business , If I can just help one person , that's amazing .
Good point right up front . That is the trick with anyone getting into web design . I feel like and I remember that very well too I once I learned how to build websites .
That was all great , but then it's like , well , if I'm going to build websites for somebody , I got to learn how to sell and then I got to learn how to invoice and manage the project and do my taxes and all the things that come alongside of the business side of things .
What do you think nowadays , what do you think is one of the biggest struggles that you see a lot of your students deal with and just web designers as a whole ? Do you think it is getting clients or is it the business side of things ? What do you think are some of the common struggles ?
I mean , out of those two points there , I'd say that the biggest constraint is being able to get clients , and I think the reason why that is such a struggle is because there's so many elements to trying to get a client . You need to know how to find them . You need to know what you're looking for .
You need to know how to generate leads within that type of audience that you're trying to reach out to . You need to know how to outreach to them . You need to know how to communicate . You need people skills . You need to know how to have a conversation with them on a sales call .
You need to know how to sell or sell without really selling , and so all of those things . It's quite challenging . It's not just down to one thing that will allow you to acquire clients . So many facets to it that becomes the biggest problem at least what I've seen across my students is being able to do that .
I mean , there are the odd ones that are not necessarily able to sell but are more interested in learning how to run the business , how to service a client , how to onboard them , how to sign off a project and hand it over . There are students that require all of that information , but it's primarily , I'd say , the client acquisition .
Yeah , very timely . We're going to release this just after I launched version 2.0 of my business course , which is like my signature program , and as I was going through those lessons on sales and getting clients .
And well , what I teach in the course is that you don't find clients , you find leads and then they become clients , so there's a whole system for getting clients and converting them .
But , yeah , as I was thinking about that and working through those lessons , I was like this could 100% be its own huge course , like you really can make it as wild as you can imagine , but I don't want to overwhelm people on this topic because it can be complex and there is a lot to it , but it also , I found , can be boiled down simply if and I can
say this in confidence because it's what I did I went through zero training on sales or how to get clients and I did get clients . It was mainly just , honestly , people skills and just care .
Like , even though I wasn't good on video or anything like that , I did really care about the work that I was doing and I cared about people and cared about their projects . So I feel like that's an intangible that's overlooked . Would you agree ? Like just that idea of like , of care really .
I mean , I feel like a lot of web designers are such commodities because they're just trying to make a quick buck and we . I'm sure you've seen the story as a web designer who just flake out and disappear , but I feel like care is so overrated for web designers .
Yeah , 100% agree with that . I mean , I generally believe that my act , my biggest asset when selling , was not coming from a sales based background . I didn't come across as your cliche salesman that was just going in for the kill or trying to get that sale .
If you generally care about the person that you're talking to and their business and you want to help them , you're going to win . If you don't care about them in the long term , you're going to lose . So , yeah , I believe that people skills is so important . Being able to sell or having sales in in in comments here .
Sales skills I generally don't believe is important and that's something that I also teach myself is we're not web designers or they . We technically are .
We are actually problem solvers , and if you can position yourself as a problem solver and talk to a business owner and stand what problems they're having , you can start to figure out well , how can a website help this individual and their business with their problems ?
And so that's how I try and position it , and if you can do that , you're going to be in a much better position to acquire clients sign up clients , win deals , win sales than any other trained salesman that's just going in to try and get a quick buck .
It's a good little like title or tagline for web designers , If anyone wants to try it out . The web design problem solver .
It is true because even in the early days I'm thinking back to when I got started I unintentionally was good at listening first in meetings and meeting with people and just providing what was very , very basic , rudimentary ideas on how a website could help a business's problems with getting a website up , growing online , getting more conversions .
I didn't use that lingo back then , but it's what it was . I just said , bringing more customers . But it is interesting that care just that idea of truly caring about your clients and the results that to this day still outweighs competence .
I mean , competence is important but you can be the best designer in the world , but if you're a total jerk to a client , they know you're selling them . Yeah , you're likely not going to get the project compared to the person who is maybe new early on , but they really care and they're really going to actually communicate on time in our really problem solvers .
Yeah , because I guess we're kind of like business strategists in a way as web designers .
Yeah for sure . Ultimately , although on the surface a lot of websites look the same , Every business has their own individual problems and all problems differ . So you need to figure out , within the problems that exist , what strategy that you can implement in order to have the best chance of solving those problems . I mean , we're realists , we're human .
We're not always going to be able to solve those problems . But if you can , over time , build some experience and start to understand how you could potentially solve a given problem through a website . For example , a website , a business , is getting too many phone calls Because they have potential customers asking them questions , it's like great .
Well , an FAQ section would usually solve that . It doesn't always have to be how do we get new business through our website ? It could be solving other problems .
That's a great point . I love that mindset , Tristan , because yeah , solutions to problems for clients are not always boost our conversions by 50% or whatever . It can 100% be saving business owner's time . Or even just the idea of somebody being proud of their website to send them people to that they aren't doing currently .
Yeah , those seem like little results , but those are big results for a business .
Yeah , exactly , I mean , I think of one scenario where I had a new . It was a new SaaS company approached me . They were looking for investment and they needed to rebuild their website to reflect their current position in order to acquire investment . They weren't looking for app installs or anything like that , it was purely to get investment .
So I think where a lot of people kind of foreshort is , they only think of one potential outcome , and that is we will get you more business . There are so many different ways or avenues or roads that you can go down to be valuable to a business by way of providing them a website .
What would some of those other ones be ? So we talked about , I think , the big ones obviously , yeah , like conversions , growth , sales directly on a website if it's a product or something . But I love that . The little intangibles , like the FAQ section , that would save support time and people getting calls .
Are there any other ones that you've noticed in your experience and that you see your students do that are other results based web design tactics , I mean to be able to pinpoint something off the top of my head .
That's a great question , so . I would say as service-based business providers . One thing that I think every service-based business needs is a portfolio An area on your website where you've shown examples of how you've helped other people .
Whether you're a web designer , of course you need that , but there are a lot of service-based businesses that exist that serve other businesses or people that do not talk about it , do not shout about it or present it on their own website , and I think there's another way that you can be solving that problem .
Again , you could argue that that comes round to client acquisition . If you're trying to require clients , you need a portfolio . I usually say that there's a handful of things that you need to have on your website , and that is making sure that you've got a call to action . That's clear .
Making sure that you have a portfolio , making sure that you have proof of concept so any reviews and things like that and making sure that you're being clear about what problem you are solving there . For me , the key thing is that it should exist on a website .
Let's talk about call to actions , because there's so many different . I bring this up because it's a question I get a lot . It's like what should my main call to action be ? Should it be to get a quote like hit me up , go through just a basic contact form , I weed him out from there , book a call ?
I guess there's no right or wrong to this and might depend on which of those you'd prefer . Do you have a favorite call to action for web designers ?
I think it comes down to what the end goal is . I think typically for web designers it probably is to acquire more clients , as the start of the conversation went . For me that's going to be what is the best form of communication for that individual designer .
Because typically you'd say email me or fill out this contact form , but actually we're in a day and age where we don't always communicate via this method . So you could have a link to your WhatsApp , you could have a WhatsApp web link , for example , and say contact me here and you'd get a direct WhatsApp message .
So I would say it comes down to personal preference . But I would also say have a couple of options on your site , because although it's down to personal preference of the designer trying to get the contact , it also comes down to how does the person that's potentially going to contact you , your ideal customer , how do they prefer to be in contact ?
Because some people like picking up the phone , some people are a bit shy , so actually they would prefer to email . Or some people would prefer to just message , because from my experience , sending a message is a bit more direct than sending an email . A lot of people send emails . They can get lost , but if you want a quick response , you would call .
If you want , or sort of say , the quickest response , you would call . If you want a quick response , you would message , but if you want a response at all , you would email . So I'd say , have a couple of options , but also think about how you prefer to be contacted .
That's interesting . That's good because , yeah , you're right , there are different behaviors , like client behaviors and personality types , who do prefer to call or do prefer , maybe , a video call or like to book a consultation . I'm kind of an email guide , rather , start with a contact , but some people love DMs .
Now , what's interesting about this , though , is I do recommend to my students that they be open like that , particularly for calls in the early days , because the more you can get on the phone with somebody , the better you'll be able to convert them .
But , moving forward I'm sure you've experienced this you don't want to leave your calendar open to everybody and anybody who is potentially going to be bad fit leads . So what did your personal process look like for your digital marketing ? Because you're still straddling both worlds , right ? You're doing digital marketing for clients and teaching as well .
Yeah , I am , that is correct , and it's an interesting point that you just made there about trying to filter out , I guess , the leads that you don't want . I mean , I get a lot of booked calls . I'm Josh . I'm really sorry if you can hear the dogs barking .
That's all right , perfect timing .
That's all right , dogs are welcome on this podcast .
I've got my two goal retrievers on the other side of my office here , but they're sleeping so they're not there .
Yeah , I mean complete side note , it's the next door neighbor . They've bought two new puppies and oh my God . So I do apologize . No , it's all right .
But yeah , as I was saying with my process , I get a little calls that come through the agency that are either just trying to I mean they're just trying to figure out my process in the terms of what happens next when we fill out this form or what happens next when they book a calendar invitation .
Do we get an email and I'll get people just put a bunch of characters into the input fields and they obviously just get deleted . But we also get some that are students but booking through the agency , which isn't for me it's not the best approach because I actually don't take my agency calls anymore .
I have a business partner which is more sales focused and he takes all of the calls and I will get messages from him saying , well , there was a call on today but he wanted to speak to you or they were looking for help .
But also we get a lot of calls that are just looking for just outright free advice and kind of like , as much as I'm a giving person and happy to help people , like maybe going through the agency process to appear like a potential lead for free advice is not the best way to go Right , and so we , as you would have guessed , we have a calendar form on our
website and that's how we encourage people to book calls with us . Of course they can phone and of course they can email and we do get the odd ones come through that but we heavily encourage people to book a calendar conversation , and then my business partner takes care of that .
But this is . This is an interesting setup to Tristan because I'm looking at it right now . You're a Calendly . You're like you're called action to book a discovery call is kind of a mix of book , a call and what my count contact form is , which is the like what do you need help with , investment level , et cetera , which is on your calendar form .
So it's kind of like a two in one . I feel like you're weeding people out if they see your investment ranges and they're like oh , I'm not even close , so they're not going to book the call , but it's on that Calendly form . So if anyone wants to check that out Tristan Parker , dot code , dot UK it's a good place to go to check that out .
That's an interesting strategy . I haven't seen before where your Calendly booking form is a contact form Basically . That's interesting .
Yeah , exactly so we've . I've got it set up through Zapier so if someone submits an inquiry , it will come through to Slack . We have a Slack channel with all of the booked calls that come through . It will go into our email list and also we can use it as an opportunity to quickly decide whether that's going to be a good fit or not .
We had a lot of people booking calls that were below our desired budget , which is why we put in the the budget constraints , because if they didn't fit the requirement then we would have an internal conversation to decide do we want to take this call or shall we pass on it ? Is it going to be the best use of our time , which , I mean , doesn't sound ?
Doesn't sound very good because we're passing up a job , but also we don't want to waste our time and we don't want to waste the potential clients time either , because if a project costs two and a half thousand pounds , for example , an eight of a 500 pound budget , there's no point of sitting here for an hour to get through requirements and all of that
information if it's not going to be a good fit anyway . So , yeah , we needed to find a way to whittle out the non fits , and that was one way that we were able to do that nine times out of 10 , it comes down to budget . It doesn't come down to whether we are a good fit as a company . It comes down to whether they can afford us .
So having it on the form was really useful .
Well , that's very cool . My process was kind of like yours , except it was a bit kind of like two steps from that . So it would be the contact form . I would use that to weed them out .
And then questionable leads would go to what I have is called a potential client page and that has our price ranges so they at least see what we're looking at and then , if that's cool , we can book a call . Or for really qualified leads , we go right into the call .
But I do like this approach of so that basically gave me a chance to weed them out myself before moving forward . But I do like this approach of having the Calendly form be the contact form . That would get some of that out of the way .
And then it's like well , they're going to schedule a call if they at least are cool with one of the investment level tiers .
So it all can work . That's what's cool about that . And so I think it comes down to the thing of how many steps do you want a client to take to book a call , because obviously , the more steps that there are and they book a call , they are highly qualified . They have jumped through hoops .
Okay , that is an easy sell , versus how easy did we want to make this for them so we can just have a conversation with them and potentially try and sell them on the phone ?
And I think that's where I'm currently at is trying to find that balance , because we don't want to lose opportunity because we've made it too difficult for them , but we also don't want to be having conversations with non fits because we made it too easy .
Right , right , great distinction . What you just said . There is gold , because there really is two camps and the way I dub it is qualified leads and questionable leads . And yeah , you don't want to spend . We've all done this where you've been on the phone for an hour with somebody , which yours is nicely set as a 15 minute call .
I've never had a 15 minute call , though , with anyone in my life , so I guess it's probably a good precedent to like . Let's not go over a half hour , but it would be hard , I think , to decide in 15 minutes , or get them off the phone in 15 minutes at least . I don't know , have you stuck to that or how's that work ?
No , I have to go into the calendar .
The way that the calendar works is you set your defined meeting time , but you can also put a buffer before and behind . Okay , before and after . Sorry , so I think that works 15 minutes . So actually it's a 45 minute window . God , yeah , scheduled as a 15 minute call , Genius .
So if we have back to back calls , you know we have no choice but to , you know , end the call .
And my approach personally is to have that initial conversation and qualify them again and then invite them onto a second call where we can , after we've asked them a few questions and we understand more about the business and the problems they're having , we can come back to them with a loose solution and always pitch them on how we can then solve those problems .
And we typically at least from my experience do that by way of a presentation . Okay , and I call it a two step sales call . I mean , I'm sure many people have heard of that , but we have two steps in our sales process . We have the problem discovery and then we have , almost like , the solution presentation .
Love it , love it , gotcha . I've seen that pretty prevalent in the coaching world and yeah , that makes sense . I guess in a way I did that , but I kind of combined it . I didn't have an exact method or framework like that , but I like that distinction .
Usually what I would do is a discovery call and that would be the problem , like figuring out what the challenges and problems are , and then I would come in and we needed an additional call . We would do it , but typically then I would come in with the proposal , which would be the presentation . So yeah , it's funny .
It's like it's all we almost are doing the exact same thing , it's just phrased differently and packaged differently . Yeah , yeah , which is pretty and that's what I've seen . And the same thing with , like , getting clients and leads .
It's like there's cold leads , there's warm leads and you take them into some sort of funnel to get them to your , to your contact form , whatever the call to action is , and then you do problem discovery and then solution , and then there we go , we're off .
So there's so many ways to package it up , which the cool thing about I think everyone I've talked to who is a fellow like web design , business coach or somebody who teaches this is like there is no right or wrong way to do this . There's so many ways you can do it .
But that's also it's also so daunting for people , I think , when they're getting going or early on .
And then to your point , tristan , like you're at this point where you're trying to balance that line , you're trying to tread that line of like well , I don't spend too much time on discovery calls , but I also want to like automate my business to where it's really impersonal , and that looks different too , depending on the marketing .
I feel like like my system worked really well because I wasn't getting many cold leads . My business was so referral based and very partnership based , where the few that came through my contact form that were questionable .
I had my potential client page , but in most cases we were going right into a call because they were referred by a client or in my networking group or something like that . So I guess that makes a big impact too , doesn't it ?
As far as what that process looks like , as whether , yeah , is it referral based in person , or are you getting a lot of cold traffic online and social media , I guess that really would dictate how you do the weed out of all that .
Yeah . So I would say most of our traffic is cold and the reason for that is we have almost three different avenues for acquiring traffic .
We have YouTube , which is a pretty decent driver , so regularly I output videos on YouTube that not only promote I guess it promotes web design and SEO as a whole and that can look to bring in agency clients and it can also look to bring in students or coaching clients .
We also have organic SEO as a very strong driver for us at the moment for bringing in new cold leads because they've never engaged with us before . And then we have social media . So I'd say social media is probably the lowest in terms of acquiring cold traffic because , as much as I'd like to admit that I'm active on there , I'm not really .
I'm not consistent enough , but it's one of those things which I'm sure you might be able to relate to . It's one of those things that you know you should be doing , but it always ends up at the bottom of the list and sometimes I think , shall I post today ? And it's like no , I'll make that tomorrow .
It's so hard , man . I mean , I think the reality is the question of like . Should you be doing it Whatever is working well and if you're enjoying it ? That's what I'm telling myself is like I actually . I know I've been .
I've been saying I should be devoting more time to my YouTube for a while now and I'm finally doing it just because I've spent a lot more time doing a lot of other things and trying to keep active on social . But I like YouTube more . It's my favorite . Aside from podcasting , podcast is my absolute favorite .
Youtube is my second favorite over social media , so I'm even going through that myself now . It's like that feeling of like I should be posting every day . I should be present .
Well , maybe one long form piece of content on YouTube that is going to go further and have a bigger reach over time once a month would be better than five social media posts a day that a quarter of your audience might see .
I 100% agree . I think having a social presence is important . You need to be there in the forefront of people's minds and the only way that you can do that is being visible multiple times I'm gonna say multiple times a week .
I think it's unreasonable to expect to post multiple times a day unless it's your full time job , yeah , but whereas YouTube , on the flip side , I love it because you can post a video today , it not get really any traction and then six months later it blow up .
Okay , a video on YouTube stays there , whereas a post on Instagram or TikTok it's got such a short lifespan that you don't get the if you don't get the initial gratification from it . It's like it didn't work , whereas YouTube , it still blows my mind . Today I'll post a video and I'll be like , oh man , it's flopped , never mind , okay , on to the next one .
And then I'll have a spike in views one month and I think , oh , what video is that ? And I'll look back and I'm like what that one did so bad ? Why is it now picked up ? And you can see on the graph of audience and it kind of just like picks up and spirals off .
And that's honestly why I love it , because you can just consistently post videos and over time it will compound and it will grow .
Dude , I'm looking right now , so I have a video . Let's see that I just got in the last 28 days . Five and a half thousand views on this video was posted in 2018 . It's my top video . It's my most popular video on my channel . It's how to migrate WordPress sites manually and little 20 minute tutorial on how to do that .
But that this just echoes that point of YouTube will continue to recycle your video and push it out as long as it's good and as long as it works in , as long as it's relevant and I know not all web designers are going to be YouTubers or want to do a YouTube channel , but it does go with saying that long form content blogs , youtube podcasts and things that
could be a little more time maybe not podcasts as much , because podcasts do tend to go pretty quickly , but YouTube and blogging particular , those are pieces that can last a very , very long time and Google and YouTube will continue to recycle those .
Whereas , yeah , my big problem with social media is I hate doing content that's going to disappear in a couple of weeks and , like all that work I've put into that is just gone for the most part .
Yeah , yeah , for sure , the point you made there about YouTube videos not disappearing .
I think there's also another aspect to YouTube which is super beneficial for any business owner which is kind of , I guess , underestimated , and that is just being present on video taking us , taking away from the whole discovery side to it , but actually the no like and trust side .
If people are watching your content , you have a much better chance of signing those up as a client . Yeah compared to what you know , they didn't watch that content .
There's been a couple of clients that we've signed up within our business and they've said that they've watched our videos first , or should I say watch my videos first , and that's a side that I never really thought , or at least that's something I never really considered when starting . Youtube was okay .
Because your YouTube video is for web designers , right ? Or is it for small business owners as well ?
No , it's primarily . It is for web designers there are . You know , my aim is to help web designers who have a business , but a lot of the stuff and the topics that I talk about are also useful to an everyday small business owner that's looking to improve their website , that's looking to improve their organic SEO .
So , although I'm talking to a specific type of audience , I get this whole other demographic which are still my ideal customer coming in via the agency . And I've now got to the point where I've taken some of those videos .
Depending on the topic , I've taken those and I've put them on our website and we've acquired customers because they like the fact they were able to watch videos fast via the website . And you know , I think you'd never be able to do that or at least I wouldn't have ever been able to offer that on my website if I'd never put content out on YouTube .
Yeah , and speaking of going back to the sales thing , if you can create authority in any way , there's so many ways to do it video , youtube , you can do it on social media , however you want to do it . You can do it with blogging , you can do it with a free training , a workshop . There's so many ways to build authority .
That just makes sales so much easier . If someone's seen you first talking about anything that you do because they don't know , like clients don't know to barely anything about websites , so you could be in this game for one month and you'll sound like an expert to you know , an auto mechanic .
Now there are some clients who are pretty savvy and not all of them , but it's a generalized statement but for the most part , I could say anything about hosting or websites , or one conversion tip , a call to action button , and the client's going to be mind blown . Oh my gosh , you're a genius , josh , it'll know .
I just went through one of my courses and I've been at it for one month . I just feel like that's what makes sales so much easier now , and the reality is we have all the tools at our disposal to show up online however we want , which is really really , really cool .
Yeah , absolutely . I think the key point there that you just touched on is you don't actually have to be an expert in what it is that you're trying to offer or sell .
You just have to know more than the person you're talking to , and then you are the expert , and so many people suffer with imposter syndrome that they let that hold them back , and so that's one thing that I teach is you only need to know more than the person you're talking to , and that would always be the case .
You'll have the old person that actually knows that thing and you know , maybe that conversation didn't work out . It's like say what , but that's going to be more infrequent than it would be frequent .
Well , that's authority building . But talk about trust building . I've learned just saying I don't know or I'm not sure , but I'll look into it , that really breeds trust . That's better than somebody saying , oh yeah , I could do , yeah , if I can do that . But they can't do that or they're not going to be able to figure it out .
And it's also a side note why it's so important to be in a community of like minded web designers . So , when you do get in that situation , which is going to happen you can say I'm not sure , but I run with an incredible crew of web designers and we can get this figured out for you .
We'll figure it out , yeah you go yourself , like it's so important for imposter syndrome .
Yeah , for sure . I mean I'm sure you know many cost the money of your students will come to you and ask you a question with how do you do X , y and Z ? A client has asked me to do something really specific how do I do this ? You wouldn't have the answer unless you had a community .
Yeah , sure , you can go join forums , but you're not going to get an immediate answer , whereas with the community or even group calls that I host on my training program , they can come to me . We have a Discord channel . They can message me direct any questions that they have .
Like that it's something that I wish that I had when I started and it's something I didn't have , so it's so beneficial .
Love it , man . Again , we're very like minded in that with our experience and then , yeah , trying to create these avenues for web designers who , just like you said , we all wish we had . When did you get started in web design ?
Well , in web design , I've been doing it for a while through multiple employment opportunities , but actually I went freelance , I think , in 2018 . Okay , I struggled , and then I joined forces with a friend who was more marketing focused and we brought businesses together to form an agency .
And then , just before COVID , I decided to part ways and built my own company by myself , which was before the pandemic great timing and all of that . So I'd say , properly running an agency , no longer being a freelancer and actually running an agency . I've been doing for three and a half years , three years , okay .
Gotcha . Yeah , I was just wondering what , just with the lay of the land as far as technology and stuff , because I started in 2010 . And there was not many . I don't even know if there was a community of like web . I mean , there were forums but , like you said very eloquently , a forum is not a community .
It can appear like a community , but there's a very , very different level when there is like a true community that has people who are like , minded on the same maybe not even the same level of expertise , but they're all going a certain direction and have certain like foundational traits , versus a forum where it's the Wild West and web design forums like yeah , you
could post a question , but God knows what type of answers you're going to get and if you're going to be destroyed for asking about how to manually migrate a WordPress site . So there's a big difference there , but it's , I mean , honestly , that's one thing that's really cool too .
Now , I think for anyone who feel like feels like they're late , getting into the game , now is an amazing time to get into web design . It really is there's . So , yes , it's overwhelming because of the amount of choices we have . That's like half the battle is just deciding . Okay , what tools did I use ? What do I want to offer ? What are the price points ?
What I want ? How do I market ? Let's go , well , let's go , let's go there . Tristan , the lay of the land right now in web design , we're kind of interested because I started about .
Well , you were in web design leading up to that , it sounds like , but what was the difference for you owning your own business and going freelance versus doing web design for other employment ?
I mean , when I got started in web design , it was very different then than it is now in terms of like the service offering , let alone the tools and the community aspect . But actually from a service delivery standpoint , we didn't have the likes of no code tools and AI that now exists .
We would have to do everything incredibly manually when building the website , so raw bones , HTML , CSS , JavaScript eventually jumped into WordPress and PHP and building themes from scratch , which I mean most web designers nowadays probably don't even know what that is .
Now that we have no code tools with the likes of Elementor and Divi I know you're historically a Divi user the land has changed so much and I think there's so much opportunity now for people to get into web design , because the opportunity to build a website has become a lot more accessible . It's a lot easier .
So it does mean that there is more , let's say , competition , because there's more people within the industry , but it's also way more opportunity for individuals to help business owners , because everyone's different . The way that everyone approaches business is different .
Human beings all have a different set of emotions , so the way that they will work with a business is what makes them unique . So being able to just offer this solution of web design . I think these days is incredible . You throw in no code tools . You throw in the opportunities that now exist with AI . I think there's no better time to get into this space .
That's well said , man . A really cool thing to tie this in with what we were talking about earlier , with being problem solvers . The cool thing about no code tools or even , like me , I'm a novice coder . I love CSS , but that's all I know . I barely know HTML , don't know any PHP or anything else .
That was plenty enough for me to be dangerous with designing sites , building structurally good best practice sites so I could focus on the client and the client problems , because it is hard to focus on client problems and figuring out solutions if you're thinking around with PHP code nonstop .
For like 50% of the build , which I didn't have to do PHP , but I did a lot of HTML in the early days and , yeah , I was like I'm just trying to freaking get this site up , let alone figure out how to sell it and help a client out with it .
So , yeah , I think a lot of people now I hope anyone here in this or seeing this takes for , doesn't take for granted the amazing tools at our disposal so we can truly be problem solvers for our clients .
Man , what a sentiment I love that , yeah , I couldn't have said it better . I mean thinking back . Yeah , I used to be so involved in the code and the technical side of producing a website that , naively , I didn't show any interest in the no code tools that were arising and I just thought you know what .
They're for non coders , okay , they're for the novices , okay . But I was so naive and it wasn't until I had me in business where you were able , I was able to take a step back and think well , actually , I'm spending so much time building a website with code .
Well , actually I could do it in half the time and , if I'm brutally honest with myself , probably deliver a better solution , deliver a better product to my customer . And it's taking me half the time when , when you get into business and you start looking at things from a business standpoint , like it's a no brainer .
So I think anyone that's still and there are techy developers that are still out there slating the no code like world I think you should ignore them . Okay , I'm , and I'm speaking from I studied web development . I am , on record , technically a developer , but I love the no code solutions that exist right now .
I was just going to ask that what's your like ? Where do you stand on that line ? Developer , designer , and if we're going to separate them , because many , many are both , yeah , I was kind of wondering where you were in the spectrum .
If I could create a triangle between developer , designer and marketer , probably sit towards marketing and design development not so much .
Gotcha , yeah , and that's what's so cool is like , and I honestly think for those interested in development and that side of things , there's actually even more opportunity for them because there's so many more people . And I'm the same as you , tristan , I'm more marketing and design , little bit of dev , but that's like maybe 5% of my triangle Same thing .
So there are times , though , where I've needed some development help , and it's beyond what I know , and I have an amazing guy , christian , who has been a student of mine and is now one of my go to referral partners for development stuff , and the stuff he can do is wizardry , but he also uses no code builders too .
So , yeah , like there's , there's a lot of opportunity for people who love the development side of things but also play nicely with no code builders and no code people , because they're actually Hal time is so funny . I just had a Kevin Geary on the podcast recently who was a little bit much more on the development side of things .
I don't know if you're familiar with him , but some of the comments were ruthless between the code and no code people . I was just kind of sitting back with some digital popcorn and just laughing at some of these people going back . There is still such polarization between no code builders and proper development .
So I mean , and there's there's valid points on both sides , but yeah , I think somebody like myself . I prioritize business problems and business solutions and whatever the solution is that works best to get it within budget and out the door and we can be profitable when it's a win-win . That's what I'm going to do .
Yeah , and I think that's where the polarization lies . I think you have , on one end , you have business owners and on the other hand , you have employees where they're not aware of a lot of the problems that business faces and what they are trying to achieve .
All the employees are trying to do is create great work and I will do the best code that I can possibly write . I will write clean code and I'll make it fast and efficient and actually , although that's great , that isn't always going to , you know , bring money into the business , and that's what's important to a business .
So if you can find solutions that are going to allow you to do that and still do good work , okay . You should never do bad work , of course , but if you can do good work and do it fast , surely that's the answer .
Yeah , absolutely , Because clients don't care and I struggled with this early on . I would often say like best practices , coding , whatever , and they're like what is CSS ? What was that word you just said ? They don't care . So it is . It's about them . When it comes to sales and marketing , even the way you present yourself on your website .
This is really important because if you talk like development and design and web design lingo , clients are not going to resonate with that , but if you speak in business solutions and business results , that's what they'll resonate with , and I do think there's a time and place for like sharing where your expertise is and what tools you use .
Like on my old about page , I used to have Josh , I'm a web designer . I had one of like circle counters . That was , like you know , in Divi I'm 80% and WordPress I'm 70% .
I don't know if anyone does it anymore .
I would not recommend doing that , by the way . Just say these are the tools I use on proficient with . Don't give yourself like a C minus because that's not helping anybody . But that was . I was like a level back where I had . These are the tools I use , this is what I'm proficient and and I really like that approach .
I still recommend that today for all my students , because sometimes you're going to get referred by people and you want to make sure they know use WordPress in this case , and you're not going to use it , you're not going to build a Squarespace site . Let's talk about that , tristan . Like how do you ? That's the other problem .
It's like so many different options and I feel weird about this a little bit now because my brand , and this podcast in particular , has taken me into the wider web design world to where I'm actually teaching students now who use Webflow and Squarespace and tools I've never opened .
I'm a WordPress guy and a db guy , although a lot of my Most of all my stuff is agnostic to that . But it is tricky sometimes to know how far to go with different platforms . Do you have any metrics or rules in place that help you stay within those constraints , like I use these themes , these platforms .
How do you go about that and how would that help people who are maybe trying to figure out how far you want to go with different platforms ?
Yeah . So I mean , from my opinion , I would say stick to the platform that you know the best , because ultimately your point earlier that you said the client doesn't often care what the website is built in , as long as they're able to do what they need to be able to do with it . So one is have a nice website , but second is , can they update the content ?
And as long as they can , they're typically going to be happy . And it doesn't matter whether you provide a Squarespace site , a Wix site , a WordPress site , a Webflow site . It honestly doesn't matter .
And I know when you look at each of them from a technological standpoint they're all very , quite different and they offer different things , but from a client standpoint they all do the same . It's like they are all the same solution . So it's like great , you want a car , do you want to drive an Audi ? Do you want to drive a BMW ?
Do you want to drive a Ford ? Okay , if all they want is a car , they're not going to care . So I think that's one way of looking at it . So I'd say choose a solution that you are most comfortable with .
For me at the moment it's WordPress , and I mean I've had an internal battle backwards and forwards as to whether I should migrate away from WordPress and go to Webflow . I've done a lot of testing in Webflow and , although I like it , I still keep coming back to WordPress , for a couple reasons , one being it feels like home . I'm familiar with it .
We now have plugins like Elementor and Divi , where we can produce websites really fast without having to be able to code , and although historically Elementor has not been the best , it is getting a lot better , and so I'm finding the difference between WordPress and Elementor and Webflow . That difference is becoming very slim .
So I'm still with WordPress and I think I'm probably going to stay there . There was a period of time where we tried to sell Webflow to new customers and a lot of them just wanted WordPress because they know it . They are already on WordPress . They're , for the most part , happy with it .
Some are not , because WordPress has its own bag of problems , but for the most part , they just want to stick with something they know , and so it just felt for us a lot easier to stick with that platform . So again , it comes back to you .
Just I say stick with what you know , but if you say , well , I'm really familiar with WordPress and all of your conversations that you're having with clients want Webflow . It's like , maybe look at Webflow because you're going to be looking , you're going to potentially be losing work .
So there is a balance between sticking with what you know and what the market wants .
Well , and then when it comes to any sort of scaling or getting help , that's what gets really , really tricky with multiple platforms , especially multiple platforms , because , like one way I was able to scale effectively very small was I just use WordPress and Divi . That was .
It had some old school themes that I would just search and find on like Envato Market and upload it and I don't know who their creator was back in my 2012, . But far and away 95% of my sites were Divi and WordPress .
It made it a lot easier to scale and to get help on , because if you are managing multiple builders like Elementor Divi , bricks , oxygen , that makes it just four times harder to manage all four . Keep up all four , hire out any work for all four and then , yeah , if you're doing different platforms , that could be really , really dangerous .
So that's kind of my personal metric too . It's like I think it's good to have a little diversity , just in case Elementor Divi does go down just from a lot of different senses . But just know , the more tools you use , the harder it is to keep up with everything , especially if you're wanting to get some help one day .
Oh good , yeah . Yeah , I didn't even consider that side of it . I think it comes down to the saying being a jackable trades , master of none , if you are looking to understand a lot of platforms and offer a lot of platforms , you're never really going to be an expert in any of them and I don't ever claim to be an expert in all of them .
I mean , I will hold my hands up and say I don't know how Divi works . I've played around with Divi sites and I cannot figure it out . Okay , I've played with other tutorials .
We'll get you . We'll get you covered , tristan , don't worry .
We've played around with other WordPress page builder tools and we can't figure them out which websites Squarespace ? We work with them from an SEO standpoint , but we wouldn't build a website in them . Yeah , it's not worth the headache . It is such a headache to try and figure out all of these multiple platforms .
I think that you should just pick one , maybe two if you like , if you've got capacity , and just focus on that .
Yep , I echo that . And look , you're an Elementor guy , right , that's your . This is your Prime Patrol . Yeah , I couldn't stand Elementor when I tried it . But the thing is is I think it's because I was just used to Divi . It wasn't that one is better than the other .
I mean , each one has their pros and cons for sure , just like any platform does , but it's such a it's such an important message , because I think a lot of people , especially in the WordPress world , like Divi , gets hated on a lot .
Divi 5 is coming out in the near future , which I think is going to be a lot more lightweight and streamlined and , from the developer standpoint , they're going to make a lot of developers a little bit more happy not happy , but a little bit more happy . But that's just what I yeah , it's what I got onto in 2014 .
I've never looked back and they've still served me fine . I have no anticipation on not using Divi in the future .
So I do think it is one of those things where , like , just like you said you've already said it but just choose the tool that you like and , as soon as you feel good , you're proficient with it , the community is good around it , you trust the company . Just go for that .
Have a plan B , have a like you might play around with Elementor or Oxygen or another builder . But I just think it's such an important message because I see a lot of my students , particularly early on . They're like I don't know . Like people say that Divi's slow , should I not use Divi .
People say that Elementor is great but I don't really like the UX , or vice versa , they like Elementor . Like I have some people saying like should I go through Divi , since that's what you teach ? I'm an Elementor person . I'm like no use Elementor If that's what you use . Like 90% of my courses plus are agnostic , you're good , use that .
Just don't go through my Divi course , you're fine . Or have that in your back pocket if you want to plan B .
Yeah , I don't think there's a good point .
I mean and that's the one reason why , within my training program , I never taught people how to build a website there's no content in there that will teach you how to physically build a website , because the only content I could release was would be to build it in Elementor and us Not always the best solution for most people .
I think that people should be doing their research and doing what they feel comfortable with , and if they have experience in Divi , great Use that . If they have experience in Elementor , great Use that . If they have experience in Webflow , use that . The end result is the same it's a website .
You teach on maintenance plans , just like I do . When you were considering Webflow was maintenance and hosting . What were your thoughts around that ? Because Webflow is self-hosted , right ?
Yes , and I'll be brutally honest , I think this is a part of one of the reasons why we never transitioned , because maintenance plans is a moneymaker and WordPress is one of those platforms that need to be regularly maintained by way of updating the call , updating the plugins . Webflow is self-hosted .
We could offer content updates , but that would be it , and because it is self-hosted , the client would have to pay the hosting . So , from a maintenance perspective , I don't understand how that can be valuable to a customer . I know that there are Webflow users that offer maintenance , but I don't actually understand that side of things .
I haven't dove too much into it , and so , from a maintenance standpoint , I think WordPress is great .
If customers want to use WordPress , it's awesome , but you need to update it , you need to keep it up to date , and we've had scenarios time and time again where they come to us and say , well , our website's been compromised or something's not working or it doesn't look right , and nine times out of 10 , it comes down to them not updating something .
And so it's very easy to say , well , you need to do X , y and Z , but actually , if you haven't got time , if you don't know how to do it , we can just manage that for you for a low cost monthly fee , and so that gives us as a business owner an opportunity to help a customer and acquire some more revenue .
Yeah , I have a mutual friend , a fellow dot co , or John Saunders , who's a Webflow guy . John Saunders dot co . Yeah , he's a Webflow guy . They do care plans , but he told me when I had him on a while back . He said it's kind of what you said .
It's a lot of content , updates , optimization , seo and kind of bridges the gap into more of the marketing side of things , whereas , yeah , wordpress is a little more actual support and care of the tools you're using . Now I do recommend people have those and link in like strategy and up sales and value ads and their maintenance plans . It's what I teach .
But the core of a maintenance plan is just that it's hosting updates to keep it maintained . And I know a lot of people are like why would you ever do WordPress if that's the case ?
But the reality is with any other tool you are limited , like you can only do so much in the way of customization with Webflow and other tools , whereas WordPress you can get into everything , for good or for bad .
Not just that . One thing that we found quite interesting when talking with potential customers around Webflow the one thing they didn't like was that they wouldn't be able to own their website Because when it's self hosted on Webflow , webflow on the site , webflow could get down at any point . I mean it's unlikely , but they could crumble .
Same with Wix , same with Squarespace . If those companies disappeared tomorrow , your website would disappear , whereas with WordPress , because it's an open source community , you can take that anyway . You can host it on any platform that you want . You can draw down your HTML , your PHP files , your database . You can physically have it on your machine if you wish .
You own the website . You don't own the website with Webflow and all these other third party companies . So that was one thing that we found super interesting was that the clients that we were speaking with wanted to own their site . They didn't want to feel like it was ever held for ransom .
So that was another really strong selling point to WordPress really was that they own it .
Interesting that the clients felt like that and I'm sure they don't know . They don't know the term open source , they don't know the difference in WordPress or anything else , but they did know that they want to own their stuff . And that is what's interesting about that ? Yeah ?
So I'm sure during your time of owning an agency , you would have customers say , well , can we have this website on our own hosting , please ? And if you say to them , well , actually , no , you can't because it's on Webflow Then they have that kind of discussion . It's like , well , we want to own it , how do we make this possible ?
And so offering WordPress just made that possible .
Yeah , yeah . Now , if for anyone curious like what to do when you get that question , I always say , well , we do have our hosting and maintenance and the reason is because we want to make sure your site stays up and it's smooth and it's optimizing everything , but you still own the site .
Like , if , for any reason , you should want to move hosting providers or if your IT team needs to I did have some clients where that was the case Then you can do that . We can sell to the maintenance , but you can do the hosting as long as it supports the website and we're able to work on it effectively . And that was it and that was really nice .
It was nice to be able to , and even when I was selling hosting and maintenance plans , it was like the clients appreciated the fact that , even though I've got it all right now , they could have it if they wanted it . It's just they want it off their hands . They want to run their business , but just knowing that their website's there at any point .
If you decide to go with another designer , no problem , all your stuff will . You'll have all your files and stuff . That is a really big seller for WordPress , for both developers , designers and for the client side of things , so I'm glad you brought that up . It's a good selling point for WordPressers .
It is yeah , it is Absolutely .
Yeah Well , awesome , tristan . We've covered some good ground here , man . Everything from sales , client acquisitions to onboarding processes a lot of the common challenges that we all face as web designers . I really , really a big takeaway for me was I liked seeing your your Calendly form . That was kind of a mix of a contact form and a book of call session .
I hadn't seen that before , so we'll make sure we get that linked up in the show . That's very one to check out . Where would you like everyone to go to connect with you ? You have your agency site , but you're on YouTube . You have your . It's the Alchemist agency , right ?
Or the agency Alchemist . That's correct . Yeah , I mean partly confusing . There's two different arms to the business at the moment .
So , from an agency standpoint , you can find me at Tristan Parkercouk , which is our agency website , or if you're a web designer interested in looking at the mentorship or coaching opportunities , then you can take a look at agencyalchemistcom or find me on YouTube . There's no problem .
Awesome . Yeah , We'll have all that linked up in the show . You know I've really enjoyed your YouTube stuff here recently too . Kind of inspired me to get back on it .
Oh , you should , it's so fun .
Yeah , it's kind of interesting because you'll appreciate this end of a conversation , but I've really gone from teaching pixels to teaching profit , so teaching people how to build websites to teach people how to build their business . Those really led into each other nicely .
But now I'm like , because I don't design sites for clients now , since I'm a consultant from my agency that I sold , I don't . I'm not in Divi as much as I used to be , so I really prefer to talk about the business side of things .
But YouTube knows me as the Divi guy , so I'm like I'm trying to keep my foot in that world , but I'm also kind of expanded out too . So it's a challenge for me , man , not easy , but maybe we'll have a conversation off record here about that .
Yeah , yeah , absolutely Sounds good .
Awesome man . Well , tristan , thank you for your time . Dude , we'll make sure we link up everything in the show notes here . And yeah , man , really inspired by what you're doing , keep at it . I can't wait to see how your business continues to evolve , and we'll make this the first round of more here . That sounds good , man .
Yeah , sounds awesome .
All right . So great , great , great lessons there with Tristan as somebody who is an agency owner and a course creator and community builder himself . A lot in common and very like-minded , as I think you probably discovered there , and maybe you're like that too . You , whether you're a developer or designer or marketer , first they all seamlessly work together .
There's so many ways to excel on web design now and into the future . It just kind of has a matter of sticking to it and figuring out what you do best . So I hope this conversation has helped . Again , go check out Tristan at his agency site , Tristan Parkercouk and for his courses and web design business help agency , alchemistcom .
And again , if you would like my personal help in your business and help you boost your sales , raise your rates , enjoy life more as a web designer and have the support you need , come join me in my community web designer pro . You can go to joshallcocomcom To get access to that . If you have any questions , let me know .
Leave me a comment on the podcast episode for the page for this podcast episode . You can also hit me up at joshallco . I like to make my email public because I personally manage my email and I am down to answer any questions you have so I can serve you better . All right , friends , see you on the next one .
I hope you enjoyed this one and if you would leave a podcast review , it would mean a lot to me on Spotify or Apple if you leave a review for the show . See you on the next one .