Companies want a little bit more edgier , more personal brand and design elements than just kind of a big agency . Because we think agencies you just think cookie cutter , you just think traditional . I think a studio sounds a little bit more like wow , this is , we can come up with something really creative here .
And I think that verbiage speaks volumes , especially for agency owners that are looking to do what I do , because for me , like I'm not looking to become a big studio , like , as you can see , i'm in my home office , my kids are in the other room .
After this call , i'll take a break , play with them , hang out , and then I have like a couple calls for the day and I'm done . You know what I mean . And my team is small . We're we're tight knit .
Welcome in , friends . Great to have you here for a whopper of a conversation that I'm about to let you in on . That I had with John Saunders , who , if you've been in web design for any amount of time , you've likely seen a Facebook ad or other social media platform ad from him .
John is also a fellow web design business coach and agency owner and an all around awesome dude , entrepreneur And as somebody who has a lot of experience with building a multi , six figure and actually seven figure design business . So , needless to say , it was an honor to have him on In this conversation .
We dive into everything on how to build a web design business , how to focus in and prioritize the right services for you , how to not come across like a digital marketing agency and burn yourself out , and how to scale , how to build a team and how to partner up with people who do ancillary services that you do .
My gosh , this one was really knee deep and incredible stuff when it comes to building and scaling a thriving web design business today , so I'm going to bring John up here next , before we bring him on , you can check him out at John's D Saunders dot co where he has a web design accelerator course , some awesome templates for notion and a new book that I
actually ordered . Live on the call with him And then , if you want to check out his agency , you can do so at the number five , the word for F ?
O U R , digital dot com , so five for digital dot com , and of course we'll have all his links and resources and socials and everything that we mentioned here in the episode over at the show notes for this episode at Josh Hall dot co , slash 266 . Without further ado , here is John Saunders .
Let's talk building and scaling a thriving web design business in today's landscape . Enjoy , my friends . Well , john , welcome . Welcome officially to the podcast , man . What a pleasure to finally connect Likewise .
So I'm happy to chop it up with you .
You and I are pretty similar in what we teach . Now , as far as the business of web design and helping web designers , i'm kind of curious for myself , because I don't know too much of your backstory and those that don't know You what was your progression like into just being a web designer , and then how did that translate to teaching it ?
Yeah , no , no doubt , no doubt . So I started in the industry .
I was , i'm 37 , i think . Yeah , i got a double check . now I'm 36 . I do too . It's all up there after 30 .
Once you get 30 , man , it's kind of like you know it's nothing matters Because like as you can see , I'm a geek behind me , man .
So now it's great because I'm an adult , so I can actually do that . I wanted it and I was a kid and it just works out well . Never exactly .
, exactly So I built my first website around 1920 for my mom .
was a teacher and a tutor And so she needed a website and I was like , all right , i think I could do this . I went on YouTube , found a tutorial on WordPress and started to build out this website . And then she started to get leads to that website And I was like , wow , this thing really works . This could be something that's tangible .
I took an ID card and I was like I'm going to get a copy of this . That's tangible . I took an idea and I made it into something that's a physical product that she can then go sell . And at that point I wanted to be a copywriter and I worked in banking .
I worked at this bank called Bank Atlantic for like four years , kind of moved up the ranks there and became a personal banker . But I wanted to move into the marketing department and unfortunately they would not hire me .
I even made like this really cool like spec book with like copy writings I mean copy and really cool like gay read ads that I had like finagle together in Photoshop , but they weren't having it . So I ended up doing a couple internships , stayed there for a while and then an agency finally hired me as their social media manager and their web developer .
So I did HTML , css and social media for that agency And I stayed there for four years . They were an automotive agency , so they were primarily in that like $99 , get your new lease on this Honda Civic . You know those kind of ads right .
So I was there for four years , spent a good amount of time there but learned a ton from the CEO on how to run an agency , the things I needed to do , and I moved up the ranks to digital marketing director at that agency And at that point we were doing a lot of automotive stuff .
I wanted to branch out and work with different types of companies And so I left and I actually got a job at an exotic car rental company , which was awesome .
I was able to do their SEO , their website , and I was working there probably like nine to two money through Friday And during that time I got to drive like Lambos and Ferraris to test out the vehicles right , to be able to write ads and content . That was really great for it .
And while I was there , i was building up my own business , doing social media , doing SEM , seo for , like friends , entrepreneurs that I knew in the space , and trying to build up my personal brand . What happened ultimately was I left these out of car rental company . They became a client . And then I opened my agency five , four digital about nine years ago .
And when I opened the agency , we were doing everything , man . We were doing SEO , sem , ppc , social media websites , branding , everything right . And it was just me and I had like a developer on a project basis And , man , it was just so overwhelming . It was so much work . I was working 14 , 16 hours a day . It was a ton of work , man .
And it got to the point where I was just , i was unhappy and I wasn't really enjoying the work anymore . And I looked at the entire business as a whole and I said you know , i love branding , i love web design , i love the development , i love the creating part of this process .
Why don't we just get rid of all these other services and just focus on these ? And that's when there was a huge shift in the agency , because we were focused on what we were really excel that and what we did really well .
And this was probably about six or seven years ago and we decided to move to that focal point And that's when the agency started to blow up . That's when I started to create systems and operating procedures around just those three focus areas to build up the agency .
Oh , that's beautiful , And I want to transition eventually here to the teaching of what you do .
But what you hit on right there , john , that is crucial , and so many of the students I teach who do have experience with social media or just like digital marketing , like full stack services , the , the , the pressure is to like do it all , but I don't know if I've ever seen anyone just about do everything unless they have a big team like a full agency behind
them . I've never seen any of them . Number one make it . Number two , not burnout . Or number three enjoy it . You know what I mean .
Like to your point , it's like you just , it's just so much .
So I think it's such a good lesson to refine what you do well , what you like to do , and , i guess , what's most profitable .
Absolutely , absolutely , and it's since then , man , it's been a huge shift in the agency , because we're able to focus on what we love . And I'll say this point too when you focus on a few services , it's almost like you can predict the entire process of the project right , because you have these fundamental steps on how you complete a project .
It's not going to change fundamentally from project to project , right . Of course things will be edited and tweaked , but overall your process won't change .
And when you can start to develop a I guess , a standard operating procedure around that , now it becomes a business that then you can give wrap and sell as another product to other agencies And then you can also leverage that to get acquired right . It all revolves around the systems in that process .
Yeah , so when you were doing like every digital marketing service under the sun , what was the , what was the value of the websites back then ? Like , did you ? did you still feel like every , because my , my mindset is everything goes to the website .
Like , you can do as much SEO and much digital marketing and social media as you want , but if your website sucks , that's the hurdle , that's the problem . Like , when you were doing everything , um , yeah , what was like I guess , where was websites along with everything else ?
Yeah , I mean it was . It was probably the biggest piece , right , Because we were doing branding , we were doing the brand guidelines , we were doing logos , we were doing SEO , SEM , but all that's being driven to the website anyway , So it was already a focal point .
Now I will say it was great that we started as a full service agency , because we're able to kind of fold a lot of those services into what we do now .
So we'll do onsite SEO , We'll set up titles , meta descriptions , alt text on websites , We'll set up Google Analytics and Microsoft Clarity , So we still take kind of some of those pieces that differentiate us from other agencies in the marketplace .
We can also be an add-on for other folks too , where maybe you have a differentiator that makes you more competitive in the space . So maybe you're a web designer but you have a focus in um , you know programmatic SEO . Or maybe you're a web designer but you have a focus in creating design systems for large teams .
So you use that add-on as almost a differentiator , a unique selling proposition as an agency owner , And that's what helps us now in regards to how we deliver these products to clients .
Ah , that's so well said . You just really articulated the framework that I present in my business course and what I teach my students , which is essentially to have three different categories of web design services Build , which is number one like you're building the websites or doing redesigns , no matter what type of sites they are .
Number two is having support and care for I'm in the WordPress world . I know you're a web flow guy , which I haven't really met too many people from web flow , so I want to talk about that too . But uh support , maintenance , care , optimization . you're supporting the site you build .
And then number three is a growth category which you can do whatever you want , like you can do any sort of digital marketing that you're interested in , but you don't have to do it all . So I what you laid out there is kind of like the exact framework that I recommend as well .
Great minds , take a like man . Great minds , take a like Josh .
What are your , what are your big services ? again , John , You're doing websites . Um , now are you doing hosting or any sort of support or maintenance plans or care with within what ? Yeah ?
Yeah , so we do . we do branding , which is all of your design assets , logo , social media assets , all that good stuff . And then we do development , which is primarily in web flow , and Shopify are the platforms that we use , and then we also offer maintenance and hosting plans for our clients as well . So those are the main services that we have .
Gotcha . And then how far will you go when a client because it's so funny you mentioned you were doing social media and then you were doing websites at the same time ? I feel like in the corporate world people view website designer and social media director or manager as the same person .
They're just like well , you just you do social media , so you do websites , but they're so different . I'm sure you would back me up and say it's so different So absolutely . How far will you go with marketing services ?
now , oh no , we won't do any like zero , yeah . So what we'll do is right now we have and I would suggest this for other agency owners too if you're niching down and providing the specific set of services , it's a partner with other agencies that excel at different services that you don't offer , because it's twofold One .
Now you have a partner that you can push those clients to and you can actually bring them into the fold early . So , for example , if we know we're going to work with an ads manager , we can bring them in into the design , the development process and be like Hey , you know , what do you think this landing page needs ?
What else do you think this would need in regards to deliverables ? And so they can be part of that process . And then we can do the handoff to them once we're done with our part of the project . That keeps us solid . And then two is now you have another agency that doesn't offer your services , right ? So it's almost twofold .
Now they're getting business from you . It's reciprocal , and they can be like Hey , i got this client , they need a website . We don't do this , but you can benefit from this . And then what happens over time is it compounds , right , the more people you have and the more partners that do a great job that know you do the same thing .
Now you have all these brand ambassadors out there selling your services without you having to even do any touch points .
Oh , it's so good And I want to imagine , if you're still doing hosting and maintenance , you could potentially have some recurring income with that client after you build their website .
but then somebody else is handling the marketing and advanced SEO and social media and ads and all that right Exactly , and we'll set them up for success . So we'll create like landing page templates , we'll set up UI kits so that's easy for them to build . Moving forward , but yeah , we try to really stay in our lane and it's worked , worked well for us .
Man , john , i am so on point with you on this , like I think this is . I don't know if this is the new way to go or if it's , if it's , if it's directed this way , but I do feel like the full service , like we do everything and anything as far as digital marketing .
I just I think it's clear now most everyone , unless you have an agency of a decent amount of people who can support that , it is just not sustainable , like it's just , and with technology changing so fast , i don't know how anyone could keep up with with offering every digital marketing service and do it well .
Exactly , exactly , and it's , it's just , it's . It's hard , man , it's hard to be an expert in all these different fields Unless you , like you said , you have a large team , maybe have 20 people , 30 , 50 people on your team . You have experts in each vertical that can offer these services . It's just , it's just a lot , yeah .
And all the time you don't need to be in all those spaces , right ? You only need really a few specific marketing channels that can really propel your business .
Yeah , oh , exactly One thing you were talking about there was with hosting and maintenance and support .
I'm curious what that looks like for webflow , because I'm a WordPress guy and I think it's pretty known that with WordPress , you have got to stay up on updates and maintenance , which , for web designers , is great for us because we can be the webmaster for for our clients and keep everything up to date . With webflow , though , what is what ?
how does that work for you ? Like , how do you create a hosting or maintenance plan for for webflow sites , cause it's self hosted , right ?
Yeah , it's self hosted . Webflow doesn't have plugins or anything that can cause like the site to break . So you can build a website on webflow , leave it for three years and you know it's fine . What we offer is updates , so we can add blogs or resource content . We also add we can add template to pages .
We also offer four to five changes per month , based on what the client needs , and those changes can be copy updates , adding resources or blogs . And then it's also just a piece of mind for clients knowing that we're taking care of their website and making sure it's up to date , sending them analytics reports , that type of thing .
So really straightforward , not a ton of heavy lifting , probably a few hours a month on each one , but it's . It's really beneficial .
That's again . It's exactly what I teach my students who don't use WordPress , which is , yeah , you're not doing updates like you would on WordPress , but there's so many other things you can add in there in the way of updates and additional time , support , content changes .
I would imagine you guys go in and tweak SEO and alt text and work on speed and stuff like that along with exactly exactly .
So we'll . We'll initially we'll do all the onsite SEO for our site launch . So we'll do all the titles , meta descriptions , alt text , submit it to Google search console like all that's part of our like package . And then each month we're like monitor , like Hey , this page is pushing a 404 . Let's just get that fixed .
So we just do like small kind of minor things because we don't want to create like this entire service around it . We just want to give the clients peace of mind that their sites being indexed properly .
Got you , got you . So yeah , that's wonderful . I'm so glad to hear that you can still do a lot of recurring services like that with a platform that self hosted . I think a lot of people who are on square like I can't tell you how many designers I've talked to , or like , well , i can't do a maintenance plan , i'm using square space .
I'm like , ah , but you can't , it's not called a maintenance or like update type of plan . It's more of a care or support Exactly .
Let me ask you this , john I feel like there's a resurgence , and maybe not the term webmaster , but the idea of a trusted webmaster for companies . Do you feel like that as well ?
Yeah , you know , i think that a lot of and we've seen this in our space a lot of the like larger companies they might have like a smaller group or smaller team . A lot of them are leaning on like boutique or smaller agencies .
Because there's so many issues with the big agencies right , one of those being their expensive because they have a big team and they have a lot of jobs to fulfill , so they need to charge a premium price and they're not that profitable right .
A large agency might be doing 100 million but they're only making like eight to 9% on that right , so they have to charge a premium .
And then with boutique agencies or even freelancers , you can work with someone that's extremely talented , that probably started in Fang or worked with some really great companies that can either pay hourly rate or a value based rate , that can pay a set cost per month and they get a set amount of deliverables , and it's just really a lot easier to deal with that
person one on one . You might even have a Slack connect channel where you can talk to them individually . You don't have to go through five or six other people to contact that person .
Us , you know we've worked with clients like Amazon and Napa Auto parts , and these are big clients that are leaning on us to help because they feel like they can get more done with the boutique agency than they can with a large one . So it's just , it just works out really well for us .
Yeah , one thing I know we'll talk about your personal brand with your , with your courses and stuff . One . One thing I like about what you have there when you with your accelerator is you I don't know how intentional this was , but you use the term studio quite a bit a design studio ?
I personally have found that clients , a lot of clients , are very opposed to the term agency not all of them , but some of them have had the experiences with quote unquote digital agencies . Like you just mentioned , the overhead's high . They have a huge team . One thing we haven't touched on yet is the amount of turnover and turn that agencies have internally .
I mean how common is it that a yeah , a business is going to work with an agency and within a couple of months of a project they may go through like three different designers because they got people just coming in and out . I had some friends who have worked with agencies .
I white labeled for one one time doing designs and yeah , it was crazy in and out , in and out , in and out . So there's so many reasons why the term agency I think is is viewed derogatory . Now , where I like the term studio , because it does kind of feel smaller , more tight knit , a little more manageable and a little more boutique , like you said .
So is that kind of the ? I don't know , do you see that as well , or is there maybe another term that we're missing that could you know explain like ?
a small , I think . I think studio is the right term , because I feel like companies want a little bit more edgier , more personal brand and design elements than just kind of a big agency , Because we think agents , you just think cookie cutter , you just think traditional . I think a studio sounds a little bit more like wow , this is .
We can come up with something really creative here , And I think that verbiage speaks volumes , especially for agency owners that are looking to do what I do , Because for me , like I'm not looking to become a big studio , Like , as you can see , I'm in my home office , my kids are in the other room , I'm after this call , I'll take a break , play with them ,
hang out , And then I have like a couple calls for the day and I'm done . You know what I mean , And my team is small , we're tight knit And it's just . It's a different , it's a different world .
You know what I mean , And I think a lot of this has to do with everyone working from home and remote and being able to use that opportunity to see like wow , you know , I can work on my own terms , I can work on my own hours , I can work async and still do an amazing job for my clients .
And I think that that whole issue of you know , because before and I know I'm going off on a tangent before I'm working from my home office , folks might be like , Oh , this guy's probably not doing that well for himself as agency . You know he's working from home .
They think you need to have this big sprawling office and all these people behind you like working . And it's just not the case , right ? And I think that that whole break , that two year stint of everyone working from home , really shifted that dynamic .
I completely agree , that's . It's funny . I didn't really thought about it like that , but I do feel like the the view of that change to where it was like Oh , you're working from home , yeah , it's probably like a part time thing , or you're eventually going to get a real you know a big boy job and work for an agency . But then it was like Oh my gosh .
I mean , some people hate working from home . I understand , i'm a , i'm a father , i'm a father printer too , like I got three littles at home . There's pros and cons to working from home , especially when the kids were little , one wild , and they know where you work .
But of course it's awesome And some people , i think , realize through the couple of years of being at home , mostly it's like wow , i don't need to commute 35 minutes five days a week and waste an hour , hour and a half in traffic when I could do this at home and I'll have to work eight hours sitting in a chair , or at least just sit in my chair for
eight hours when I could get stuff done for . So I do agree . I do think that the landscape has shifted dramatically , even from the client perspective . Have you , have you found that clients are maybe , maybe not that they expect work from homers , but that it's just a little more Yeah , it's a little more like notable now ? It's like they don't .
I don't know , i didn't really have any clients that were weirded out that I was working from home , but I'm sure some , you know , they want to be up , they want to have a professional brand , so they might want to have a professional studio or agency , but I do feel like that's changed too .
Absolutely . I think you know , even with that it's , it's one of those things where I think a website's going to speak volumes and kind of push that over the edge , especially because your website it's on point . You've got really great case studies , it looks beautiful , the functions well . I think that would trump .
If they saw me and you know my background wasn't the greatest right I think that's going to help in regards to them making an informed decision on working with us . But yeah , i definitely see that shift .
Like you know , there's been a call where I kept my kids like running the room and people are there Before I'd be like , oh my gosh , i'm going to lose this business . But I think we're more understanding of the human condition . You know what I mean And we understand that . You know life is just going to life .
And honestly , like you know what I mean . So , yeah , it's one of those things , yeah like when it comes to representing yourself on your website , whether you work in your mom's basement or whether you are in an agency , you know like cool workplace , it's all trendy , it doesn't matter .
What matters is you do really good , damn work and you get it done for your clients to get results . So , like , you don't need to say like , and I wouldn't advise saying I work in my mom's basement . You don't have to even say you work from home , it doesn't matter . You could just get a picture of you and then use a background remover And that's it .
You know you know no one needs to know , like , where you're doing your work now , whether it's in a coffee shop or a co-working place or home . I love that , man , i that's one of the aspects I love about web design right now is it's just so open to what you want to do .
And for those who do want to get out of the house and work in an office or a co-working space , that's fine too . Like there's times where I'm like sometimes I'd like to go in a couple of days a week and just get out of the house a little bit , so you could do it all now . That's amazing .
It is man , it is . It's just . the new wave is here . You know what I mean . I love it , i do .
Speaking of new wave , i wanted to talk about maybe some new ways to make connections in this world where there's not as many meetups as there probably was 2019 prior . You would earlier you talked about making connections and partnering up with other agencies who do ads , ppc , the marketing , social media to help you focus on what you want to do .
But my question to you , john , would be like nowadays , how do we make those connections for those who maybe don't have a network , like you did of designers and you were in the agency world Like , how do you build a network ?
I guess the short question of partners , referral partners , Yeah , i really like and I just got on it maybe a year and a half ago is Twitter like design ? Twitter is a really great tight knit community of people that are passionate about what they do And it's a really great mechanism for connecting with people in the space .
So the best way to connect is really just to follow some of the folks that are doing great things in design and development and then just share your work , show what you're working on , be transparent , ask questions and just get involved in the communication and conversation on Twitter . It's just man , it's a gold mine . I found so many different partners .
We've booked business from Twitter . It's just really helpful . And the design community is . it's not as big as you would think , right , but you can kind of make a name for yourself , provide some really great work . You can kind of get into the space and be able to provide value .
And what about other social media platforms ? I'm actually not active on Twitter , but it's funny you mentioned that because I've been just starting to . I pulled a rookie move and I didn't grab my handle . I didn't grab Josh Hall , co Gotcha , somebody , some idiot , took it and I had to get . yeah , i started like he liked .
Yeah , rip my profile off and sort of post some stuff and copy my content over . I was like , oh , I should have grabbed it , because I always told myself I'm not going to ever get on Twitter . But here I am really considering it , just because more and more people have talked about this end of it . But what about other socials ? What about ?
I mean , I guess you could do the same similarly for Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn , depending on the niche . Have you explored any other ones , or is Twitter still the one to you ?
Yeah , i like . I mean I like Instagram more so for just kind of showing what I do with Reels is I'll just do like a show my work segment where I'll just kind of show what I'm working on And then I'll say , hey , we got this wireframe up or hey , we're on this stage with the client .
People love it and it keeps you top of mind , especially for potential clients . So if I'm posting content in January and I'm doing this consistently , a client might not book then , but maybe August , when they're ready for a website design , who they're going to think of . You know , since I've been posting my work consistently , it helps you top of mind .
I like Instagram for that in regards to the Reels . And then I share my content on LinkedIn . Linkedin is great . Any value based content and your projects that are working on case studies I'll post there . We've actually booked quite a few projects from LinkedIn just by posting , like what we're working on . So those are my like three top .
And then , lastly , i like YouTube . I haven't been as consistent lately , but I like YouTube videos just because it's . You know , it's an infinite repository of your content , right , it's never going to go away . We have videos that people have been looking at for five , six years . That still drives traffic to the website .
So I suggest you know if you're kind of thinking of like your marketing mix maybe one YouTube video a week , if you can , a couple Reels a week on Instagram and then any like pushing that content to LinkedIn and Twitter as well .
That's a beautiful setup and wonderful way to go about managing all the different types , because , yeah , you can repurpose a lot of content , but there is content that works better on other mediums than other ones .
Yes , yeah , i personally have the bandwidth for like a couple , but I'm starting to explore it more , especially now I've got some help with the social media distribution . Yeah , so what's like ? what's your role ? What is your role now with your agency ? Are you still doing a lot of the hands on work ? Are you mostly working on the business and marketing ?
Yeah , no , i . I , my time is taken up by just being in the management role , so I make sure that the team has everything that they need . I'll hire and put people in position to run the agency , but , yeah , i'm not doing any of the day to day design development . I'll do the discovery with clients and then I'll do like the launch call and that's it .
So my team handles the rest of the fulfillment .
And what's your setup right now ? How big is your team ?
Yeah , so right now we have we have an account manager . His name is Allen . He manages all the projects that we have . I have an ops manager . Her name is Jerry . She does the ops for my other business called black illustrationscom . So she runs that essentially . She hires illustrators , she vets them , she gets the artwork and everything on the website .
So that company is pretty much handled 100% by her . And then we have two designers , three developers on the team And then we have a data manager who does like a lot of our copy and just CMS items and any like Excel or or , i guess , automation stuff that we have . So right now it's one , two , three , like around six or seven .
But the way we're structured is a little bit different than traditional agencies . Our account manager , office manager they work about 25 , 30 hours a week . Our designers and developers are all essentially like independent contractors that work on a project basis .
So this allows us to be really lean and we can fluctuate the agency based on the level of projects that we have . So if you have a lot of projects right now , we'll assign those to specific team members . Then if things slow down on the agency side , we can accommodate that as well .
This process works really well for us because we're able to navigate the eps and flows of agency work . Great thing is , we get a lot of recurring because of our hosting clients . We host about 60 clients right now , so we do really well in regards to , i guess , consistent like business in regards to our clientele .
But this process allows us to do really well and it also allows our designers and developers , who are really talented , to be able to work on other projects as well that they're passionate about .
So if you were to start , if you were to advise somebody who's like swamped they're doing everything themselves and they know they're ready to scale Yeah , What would you say ? the first hire would be Like what would be one of the most beneficial first hires .
I think the first hire should be the person that would help you alleviate the most stressful part of what you do on a day to day basis . So for me , running the agency by myself , it was development . I would spend three hours working on one image header right .
Instead , i can allocate that time towards something else , towards creating content to bring a more clientele . So I needed a developer first . So I would think about the tasks that are taking you the longest .
I would create a step-by-step kind of procedure on how to do that And then I would delegate that first to start fulfilling those tasks and getting that off your plate so you can work on something else .
Oh , that's beautiful . And what about ? what about internal kind of stuff ? How important do you think having like a VA type role is ? Or I mean you had a couple of positions there .
what was a little bit different than what I typically see , because most everyone has a designer or developer , maybe a VA type of thing , but no one has ever I've never talked to anyone who has like a data manager or something like that . I mean , you got some roles in there that are pretty like systems-based and project-based .
it sounds like , unless maybe those are just different terms than project manager or executive director .
I'm a huge , huge , huge Like . Anytime you see me post on social media , i'm talking about SOPs . I live by standard operating procedures . It's helped me sell a few of my businesses right , because clients or acquisition folks love systems . They love . Oh , this is automated , this is all done . I don't have to do anything with this . This is great .
So we have entire SOPs around everything that we do in the agency from onboarding a client to working with them to providing them with any deliverables All that has been standardized right in our SOPs .
Sounds like that would be good stuff for a web design accelerator course .
Yeah , yeah , it's actually all in the course , man . All of the Every single SOP that we've done is in the course also , and it's just , man .
The biggest thing for me is when you create a system and you delegate it to someone and it gets done , and you're seeing it get done without you having to necessarily be the one doing it is there's no feeling like it because you feel like , wow , I have all this time to be able to do other things and work on other items .
And again , SOPs are always changing . they're always updating .
The reason we have a data manager is actually because we've implemented AI into a lot of the things that we're doing at the agency , So she's able to leverage SOPs to create brand guidelines and create all these assets and things based on what we've been accommodating and creating regarding AI prompts as well , which has helped us expedite a lot of this process .
So we're able to get a lot done as a small team .
Oh , i love it . You're using Notion right .
Yeah , we use Notion for our project management exactly .
Awesome , and for your SOPs as well . Yes .
Yes , SOPs as well . I can even share . You know , I can give you all a look , and if you wanted to like a look at it , I can share my screen to show you that too , or send that to you in a separate so you can kind of get an idea of what that looks like .
Oh , yeah , I'd love to include that in the show notes . Yeah , that would be great . just because I'm , my SOPs are a bit scattered right now all over Google Docs , So I'm actually in the process of organizing them , and I've just heard more and more and more about Notion , So I'm really considering just yeah , kind of putting everything in .
I'm a big fan of Seventeen Hats , which is the platform that I use for all my business stuff . as far as workflows and voicing contract proposals , I don't it doesn't sound like . does Notion do contracts ?
e-signatures- No , no , no , no , no . yeah , it's really . it's really like think of Notion as like Microsoft Word , google Sheets and Evernote , like how to baby . It's just , you can basically create pages how you like , but it doesn't do like that , like invoicing and yeah yeah , it's not like a Honeydust or has all the different exactly .
I'm still on the hunt for the perfect all in one solution for project management , sops and invoicing proposals , but I have just never seen one that does it absolute all Or like in the case of Seventeen Hats .
They do have some things where you could create templates and SOPs , but it's kind of janky , whereas like Notion I know Notion is like one of the top in the biz right now for organizing thoughts , creating systems , content creations , ai I know the AI tool I've heard is amazing , so yeah , it's really cool .
It kind of brings me to an interesting point , which is there is not a right or wrong way to have a process for your web design business . There's so many ways to go about it . Like your accelerator course is probably very similar in a lot of ways to my web design business course . I did the same thing .
I literally took everything in my business all my SOPs , all my templates , processes and everything and just reformatted them into this course And I'm sure we do things similar , but I bet we do a lot differently . And that's the kind of the thing about this industry is it's like there is not a right and wrong way to do a web design experience .
And you can pick and choose the things that work for your business . You know what I mean ? Yeah , absolutely .
Did you come up with all of this on your own , just by trial and error and hard lessons learned , or did you go through any sort of training for your processes and your systems , or did you take from what you learned in the agency world ?
Good question . It's a little bit of all of that right . A lot of it is mistakes and issues that I've had that I've been able to rectify with some of these processes .
It's courses that I've taken , books that I've read , working with clients and seeing issues that they've had , and just working each day to get better and better , incrementally , at being an agency owner , and so at this point the course could be completely different . You know , three years from now , this is actually the third iteration .
This is 3.0 in the last two years . So things change , things update and alter based on the industry , and so , yeah , it's really just making sure that I'm keeping up with what's going on in the industry and then anything that I'm learning and growing , able to pass that on to other agency owners .
What's something that you do , john , that you feel is different than most everybody else ? as a small web design studio , what's something that separates you ?
Yeah , i think that we do a good job of marrying creative with function , because there's a lot of just web designers that are . They're making great , beautiful websites that'll be featured on Dribble , but they might not necessarily be functional , they might not necessarily convert for the client .
So I like to think we marry both right , we make beautiful websites , but they're also functional . And for us , we don't only do it for clients , but I've done it for myself . I've launched a couple of e-commerce businesses that were acquired . I've launched another business called Urban Wilder , which was acquired .
I have another business right now called Black Illustrations That's doing really well . So not only do we do it for clients in the start of space , but we've done it ourselves , and I think a lot of agency owners do this for clients , but they haven't necessarily done it for themselves on that level .
So , having agencies great , because we're able to do this for clients and then we're able to use those same systems and processes to create our own products that we can then sell to the marketplace .
Gotcha , gotcha . Well , this is a perfect segue to something I knew we were going to get into , which is for , like , you and I are so aligned in people focusing , particularly if they like web design and they're good at like , make that your main service , focus on that .
But then a lot of people are wondering well , if I just do web design , how can I have high end , premium project prices without doing digital marketing and without doing the sales ? So my the shorthand question to that , john , would be like , how do you make web design a high value project without it being just a commodity ?
Because there are websites now that can be done with AI or templates that are pretty nice looking but of course I'm playing dental's advocate here , but because I know the value of websites and the human touch in them . But yeah , to somebody who asks you , john , like how do I do high end websites that aren't just a $500 website , like what goes into that .
Yeah , yeah , it's really going to come down to the things that the client's looking for . So it comes from a few things One , being able to convey what the client needs , based on what they're providing in regards to feedback .
So if they're like , hey , we're looking for this , this and this , you need to make sure that you convey that in your proposal , or what you're looking to do in regards to working with that client . The next piece is the specific deliverables that you have in regards to web design .
So you can say , hey , we do web design , we'll design your website and we'll send it to you . Instead , i think that you need to add on specific assets that are going to be crucial to that client . So we'll perform a competitive analysis , we'll create a inspiration board of other websites . We think that will work in the space .
So it comes down to your process and what that structure looks like in regards to what you're going to give to that client , and so I think that , for us , we say , hey , we do web design and development . What does that include ?
That includes doing a competitive analysis , having a brand discovery session , being able to provide you with inspiration and the storyboard of what we think would work well , here are the concepts . Then we do a detailed site map of what the site will look like , keeping the client involved in that process .
All of these things are going to make what we do a premium product . And also you just honestly have to charge more . You know what I mean . You charge more to the client . You can hire better designers , you can hire better developers , you can work at a . You can provide a better service and a better product to clients .
So you're not just charging more , just to say to charge you more . You're charging more to weed out the clients that aren't necessarily going to fit that criteria you're looking for .
Yeah , when you find a client that you are looking for that has the budget , you'll be able to find and create the team that's needed to create a high level and high quality product .
I love that , the concept of the research analysis and our competition analysis and a little more of the like , looking into their business and the landscape of things . Similarly to what I teach is , instead of just saying I build websites , it's once you get past that door because a lot of clients still understand , like well , i just need a website .
That's usually the start of the conversation , but then , when you get into it , i try to teach a lot of my students to frame it as like how can this website help your business ? So , very quickly , turn it over to their business . Talk about their customers , what's their goal ? Don't just talk about the website , but what do you want the website to do ?
Those little shifts Exactly What I teach is essentially those little shifts make all the difference in a high value website .
Exactly .
That might be 5 , 10 , 20k , versus a client like ooh , $1,500 . I could go to Wix and buy , build my own for a dollar , but there's so much more if you really articulate the value and look at the results .
So , like , how do you guys , do you do something similar , john , in the way of like , do you talk with your clients about their goals and business growth goals ? their customers , like , how far do you go ?
Because that can open up a can of worms too , though I do feel like that needs to be constrained , otherwise you run the risk of being a business consultant for them .
So how far ?
do you know what I mean , like how far do ? you go with results and their goals , their business goals .
Yeah , yeah . So once we have a lead that comes in , we have a few initial questions that we ask during that call to develop a proposal for them . So in our initial touch point , we always ask the budget . That's the first thing , because you want to make sure that we can align what they need with if we can even facilitate it .
And then we'll ask questions like well , what are your main services ? What are the pain points of your website now ? What issues are you currently having ? Can we have access to analytics to see your top performing pages ? What are your goals for this website in the next two to five years ? What does your ideal like site map look like in your head ?
So just initial questions that we'll ask what are some additional features that you need on the website ? or what's the functionality that you need ? Are you integrating with a CRM ?
So just a series of maybe 10 to 15 questions that give us a sense of what they're looking to accomplish and do in regards to the project , and then we'll use that and to go ahead and create the proposal and what's needed . And so we do that mainly because they're looking for .
When they come to us , they're most likely looking for design or development and not anything else . So they probably have a fractional CMO or they have a marketing department and they're looking to branch out to get help on this specific product .
And that's why it's so important to niche down , because once you become an expert and a specialist at one thing , you can charge a premium because that's the focus of your services . That's all you do day in , day out . That's why folks pay your premium to do it .
And especially if you're getting those quality leads from referral partners and stuff , it's like it's really just a matter of just converting them , like getting them over the edge .
You don't have to build the trust factor as much as you would if they just saw an ad and they're like , okay , this John guy , you know like all right now we got to get to know each other . It's like you're already they're already a hot lead .
Basically , You go from a cold lead to a hot lead right away With your like with this , with this area of leads coming in , are you still getting a lot of cheap leads ? Like do you have a weed out type of system in place or do some of those questions just weed out the people who are in the market for a $300 website ?
Yeah , so we have . We have a form on our website . That's about seven questions . One of those questions is budget . And then we have a note in that question that says our initial project start at X for web design and development . And then we have the breakdown So that weeds out all the tire kickers We since we started the process like price range wise .
Do you mind sharing , john , just like .
Yeah , absolutely .
Do you have ? I mean , i'm obviously we know web design projects fluctuate drastically , but yeah , i'm just kind of curious , curious , like Yeah yeah , absolutely So .
Our engagement started around 15,000 . And that's the initial touch point to be able to work on a project and collaborate with a client . So that gives us the opportunity to weed out folks that are in that threshold , because what we used to do is we would get these leads in and then we would refer them out anyway .
Right , because we're focused on a specific price point and client that we want to stay in regards to And we work primarily with startups . Usually you steer series a or series B or they're looking to really change up their design and development And that price point is actually really affordable for them and something that they can see a lot of benefits in .
So that question man it reads out so many . We actually have a video on on YouTube , so if you want , i can share that link with you too . Yeah , i have the doc with all the questions that folks and other agency owners can use as well .
Absolutely . Yeah , i was curious because I mean , pricing is just so all over , depending on who your niche is , who your ideal clients are , all the usual questions , but exactly .
It is kind of interesting .
Like I , my sweet spot was a little bit lower than that . Mine was between the five to $10,000 range with the majority of clients I was working with And that's generally what I teach with a lot of my students . But in a lot of cases that's just the starting point , depending on the brand And like you're talking about .
If it's a startup who has funding , that's a whole different ball game than like a dry cleaner shop who is maybe doing six figures , a couple thousand , three thousands probably going to be a decent investment for them . So what , like ? what are some of the deliverables for a project that's 15K , 20k , 30k that you've seen ? Are they ?
is it a matter of a lot of the same things that people are doing for maybe 5,000 ? Just just better like higher end type services within the scope of details ?
Yeah , yeah , i mean , the scope of work doesn't necessarily change a lot And the deliverables or the amount of deliverables doesn't really change a lot from five to 15K . It's more so being able to allocate the best talent toward projects to be able to make those .
And so by developing systems , one , you're making it so you're mitigating any issues because you have to be able to make those . You're making it so you're mitigating any issues because you have a step by step breakdown of the steps included in your process . Then the other piece of that is the deliverables aren't really changing a lot .
It's really the thought process and the value behind that , and I talked to agency owners , freelancers , about this a lot , because they always equate their skill set to an hourly rate . So , for example , a brand designer right , oh , you want a logo , it's three hours , is going to cost , you know , 1000 bucks .
However , they're not taking into account the 10 , 15 , 20 years of experience . They have to be able to create a logo like that . So , for example , pentagram , when they created like what was it The Citibank logo ? it was created on a napkin in a restaurant and they charge a million dollars for it .
Now , you're not taking into now someone would , coming in from the outside , would say a million dollars for a logo . That's ridiculous . But they're not realizing that this person has created logos for Chase . This other company has worked with the best brand folks in the world , has a roll of decks of expertise that they've accumulated over 10 , 15 years .
Right , that's what you're paying for . You're not paying for me to do this right now . I'm paying for my experience And it's almost like you said , like I know , you've probably seen an image of the giraffe drawn right , or giraffe or lion , and it's like five minute drawing is like beautiful and intricate . 60 second drawing is like a little kid drew it right .
So it's really about the expertise and you need to be able to convey that . So with us , my first website I ever designed was like 800 bucks . Now , because of who is worked with , because we've owned our process , because we have a track record and case studies to prove it , we can charge a premium cost that clients are happy to pay .
Well , better than I did . My first one was 300 , so you already were ahead of the game when I started . You can't tell I had a very , very hard time understanding time and value , even in the early days thinking .
It's one of those things , man . It's really is a mindset . It's hard to because you know you always have this imposter syndrome like am , is my work good enough to be able to charge this price ? like am I .
I think it's just getting through that threshold of not feeling like you know you're not good enough and realizing , like them , i kind of am really great at this .
Well , and then what you just talked about to charging for experience is a very big mind shift versus charging by time And that is , i think , in the early days , like for folks who were just starting , i think it's worthwhile getting a feel for for your time , as far as your hourly rate and stuff like that .
But my recommendation is to very , very quickly move from the trading time for money mindset because you really I mean , when you do that , the problem is the only way to grow is to work 90 hours a week or charge extremely high rates , which takes you to very niche competitive market , which can be can be pretty tricky .
So the sweet spot with kind of where you guys are at with that starting point range makes a ton of sense . And for those who are like , wow , 15 K is starting point is still a lot Just remember , like you have a half dozen team like that .
So a $15,000 projects between quite a few people with your processes is is different than maybe a solo printer who's charging 5000 and is maybe taking on less .
Yeah , okay , also to add on to that , remember most of our team is project based , so technically we don't need to loop in probably one designer and one developer into the project , as opposed to the whole team kind of being looped into that .
So , that that helps with that piece as well , because now we can bring in a really talented designer , really talented developer , and still have at least 40 to 60% of profit margins to be able to leverage later on .
So it's charging a premium , and I didn't even say this , but adding when you're charging a premium , you're also covering the cost of like any , any spillage , any type of like . Oh , the project is going a little bit longer than we expected .
We all know how that is exactly .
It takes care of all of that and just helps you mitigate any issues you'll have .
Yeah , totally agree .
Project to the finish line .
I mean scope creep is is one of the killers and web design . I remember some projects I would do . That went really well and I spent less time on them than I thought . I was like what is something's wrong .
What happened ?
They agreed too fast . They pay me way too quick . Something has to go wrong here , you know it just didn't , didn't see right after all the scope creep nightmares and horrors I used to have .
Oh man , it's crazy .
But that's where constraints , limitation , system processes and all those things come along .
Yeah , yeah , absolutely .
So I love that you're teaching this open , go ahead Good .
Oh no , no , I was just going to say that , yeah , like making sure that it's stipulated in your agreement and then having like a potential hourly rate in case the project goes over , because I'll tell you right now , like clients , man , they do not like it , they're like , okay , yeah , we get the approval in , stun looks good , and then if they do have to pay
extra , they're fine with it . You know , i mean because they know that's in the agreement that you set up in the initial contract .
I'm so good I almost forgot to ask you this , but with some of these , i don't know , i would probably wouldn't consider those to be enterprise clients if they're startups or that range .
But are you working with , like teams of people or because because I remember some projects where I would get a larger premium type project or business They would often have like two or three people to report to and that , as you probably know , can be a nightmare as well , like with some of these higher end projects do you find yourself getting in with groups of
people you need to work with , because that's a whole different ballgame than just a one person business , that you're one person client .
Yeah , we do , but we always recommend one main point of contact .
So , for example , if we do a slack channel with a client and there's five people in there , they can all provide feedback and details , but they go through that one liaison on their side of the team because that helps us be able to say , okay , y'all batch your comments , talk about what you need to , and then have this one person deliver us what we need
because , yeah , it can get , it can get hairy man , it gets crazy .
Yeah , i think one of the best things I ever added into my contract , which is in my business course , is the point of contract portion , or push to the point of contact , which is , yes , i am not going to go to a meeting with eight people in your business of you know the board and then here eight different ideas for the website because nothing gets done .
Yeah , everyone's had those experiences . I think particularly with nonprofits . That's often to where there's like equal say , and then it's like , oh , this is why nothing's getting done , because no one can agree , and then you guys should have had this meeting without me .
Yes , yes , absolutely , exactly , exactly . Yeah , i was just kind of .
I was just kind of curious to get to get your experience on that , because that is the one thing that I think people need to be prepared for with some bigger companies or bigger agencies or even just more premium type projects Is if there is a board , if there's funding and there's more cooks in the kitchen , yes , have some hierarchy on a point of contact And
yeah , it's it's key , otherwise those projects could never end Exactly .
And then you got seven different people and you miss and it's just you haven't . it becomes a . it becomes a nightmare .
Man Well , john , i'm stoked that you're teaching about this stuff now , man , we , we are really so similar It's . I've actually really enjoyed getting to know other web design business creators , teachers I don't know what to call us , what , what do you call it ? Do you consider yourself a coach , a teacher , like ?
what do you call yourself in your , in your brand , in your world ? I don't know ? I guess I never thought about it ?
I never thought about it . Really , i don't know . I don't even call myself an entrepreneur , i don't even know from a it's , i don't know . I just say you know , i run an accelerator , i help other agency owners , but I guess I never thought of like a title to use .
Well , I don't know if it's going to help or make your life more complicated . trying to figure this out , You probably wake up at like three in the morning and be like what am I ? Who am I ? What is my identity ? I have actually , I'm thinking about putting . I'm thinking about dropping coach from my title because I'm getting so many freaking coach ads .
Oh , man . And I'm like I'm not a coach , Like I'm not in the coaching world , Like I'm not going to sign up for Tony Robbins coaching program . I look at Robbins , great , but I'm not like a coach , like that .
So , yeah , I just I asked you because we're it is kind of a mix of like well , we're we're , we're teachers , we're entrepreneurs , we're creators , we're thought leaders , I suppose . But yeah , like I mean I do coach a lot , but I'm not any coach . Yeah , It's a tricky one .
It is , it really is . It really is , i'd say educator maybe . I think that sounds good .
Yeah . But then people are like what school do you work at ? I'm like , oh , i'm actually not . Like it's like everyone has something where , like with neighbors and people outside the industry . It is the hardest to explain what you do As a web designer . It's great , cause you can just say I built websites and then like oh okay , That's easy Yeah .
That's easy Yeah . But I've not liked the cross-eyed look , So it's like yeah .
Yes , and then you know , with all the issues with course creators , you know it's a lot .
So when you , when , when did your accelerator start ? What was ? what was V one of your accelerator ?
I think it was two and a half years ago . Maybe it was the first version , was it ?
2020 ? Was it 2020 ?
I think 2020 , 2019 around that time . Yeah , yeah , okay , that's when I launched the first version . We got like , over time , probably 500 students in that course And then version two . I just gave it to everybody for free that had the first version of the course And now this third one , which is a complete rebuild .
That's the newest one that we just released And right now we have , i think , like 110 , 120 students in there right now . We just started to promote it , like last week , so we should see some more folks jump in there .
Oh shoot , what a perfect time for this combo . I didn't realize it was that soon . Now is that so ? is it way different than original accelerator ? or do like , do previous ? students get grandfathered in with a different rate , kind of thing .
Yeah , they get a discount . Exactly , they get a significant discount to jump into the course . And this course is really about the business of running a design and development agency . I mean , it has a ton of resources from sales on how to do sales and using LinkedIn , using Twitter .
It has over 20 plus Figma files which include brand guidelines , social assets , things that you can use for agency and clients , templates for web development , mobile , desktop , tablet . And then it has all of our SOPs and the step by step SOPs to run your agency too .
So if you're like , hey , listen , i don't really have time , you can literally send it to your VA and they can start to implement these things tomorrow . So it's really really easy to pick up and go . And it's it's . It's a good amount of content , but it's very streamlined and easy to navigate . And then you also have access to our community .
And then I do office hours every other week , live , so you can ask questions , get your questions answered , and then there's a ton of resources and communication . Recent stuff in the actual course has run through my network , so we have a whole , a full community in there that you can access .
Gotcha , gotcha . Yeah , i've been using circle for my membership , circle circles , but yeah , i'm . yeah , wordpress Divian Circle those are still my go-tos for everything I'm . I spend much more time in circle than I do in WordPress now , so now I'm like starting to now . I'm now I'm going to start doing content for for circle , along with WordPress stuff .
So now I now I'm really conflicted with where my identity is , because I , i know man , yeah , such a word , word , word press guy , which , by the way , does Webflow . do you guys have , like , what's the community behind Webflow ? Are there meetups and conferences and stuff .
It's pretty . Yeah , it's pretty . It's pretty big . Well , i , you know , not , i don't know if it's big , but it's very like tighten it Yes . Yeah Yeah , there's a lot of stuff all over .
They call it like the no code movement , so there's a lot of stuff in here and the West Coast , um , up North in New York So they always have like meetups and events and things like that . So , yeah , it's , it's a really , it's a really solid group .
Yeah , i didn't know how connected you were in the community itself , i mean WordPress . it's one of the big benefits . It's like it's very , very community driven . So I wasn't sure , like with Webflow , squarespace and others . Oh dude , it's been helpful .
It's been super helpful . Yeah , yeah , we've been . We've talked on like three or four talks with Webflow . We actually got interviewed with them , with one of our other businesses And then , yeah , because you guys are an official partner , right , Webflow partner too . Yeah , yeah , exactly So it's been . It's been man , it's been awesome , It's been awesome .
How do you like for some of your students in the accelerator , is that a ? is it an agnostic platform or do you like ? do you have ? do you have to use Webflow to join your accelerator ?
No , no , So you don't have to use Webflow . It's , it's a recommendation on like the platform that we use , but the course is really about the business of web design and development . So it's really about cultivating what we have and and implementing it your way in your agency . So you can use WordPress , Webflow , Shopify , whichever platform you're comfortable with .
The principles will correlate to all of those . It's just . some of our SOPs and trainings revolve around Webflow , especially in regards to like quality assurance and like the analytics and others and implementations .
Yeah , same here . It's so , man , so funny . I feel like I'm talking to a weird version of myself . It's like yeah , exact the same way . Like I do , i have some Divi resources and courses that are Divi specific , but my business course is 100% . You could use Squarespace or Webflow , whatever it is , but it makes it tricky , doesn't it ?
as a creator , because it's like you know the community , you know your tools . You really have to separate , okay , what , what processes can be evergreen for , like any tool , versus what's pretty specific to this tool or this community , especially when it comes to hiring , because if you're going to hire a designer , they need to know your stuff .
So , like I , i have all the Divi resources in the world , but if somebody wants to hire Webflow designers , I'm like well , now I need to call John Cause I don't know Definitely . Yeah , i love what you're up to , man , the . Uh , we'll definitely call this .
So johnsaundersco is where your accelerator courses You got some awesome stuff there your notions and what's . Oh , yeah , tell me about your book . I didn't even know you had a book .
Oh yeah , yeah . So I wrote a book called borderless Um , and essentially it's about how to like , build your team , build your remote team , use uh , leveraging and collaborating with people from all over the world .
So we have team members here in the U S , south America , we have team members in Africa , Europe I mean , we have team members from all over the world And it really is about creating and managing a worldwide distributed team and how beneficial it could be for your company culture , how you can work with really diverse , amazing folks , how you still pay the above
rate for team members all over the world but you're able to leverage and learn from people from different walks . And it's just a really quick , easy read . There's a ton of resources in there , um , and you can get it on Amazon . You can just go to my website and pick it up as johnsaundersco in the menu You can see uh , the book is called borderless .
Borderless . Yeah Man , i uh trying to pull this up real quick . I don't know if we'll come through because I just purchased it .
Oh nice , I just got it . I'm excited . I literally want to ask you if I look to strike because I was ordering your book .
Hold on , i'm going to prove it to you . Here we go . There's the Amazon order .
It might be blurry , there it is though Got it .
Yeah , i see that yellow button . Oh , thanks man , appreciate it . I hope you enjoy it . I'm excited .
It's uh . Yeah , it's crazy , that's um . So that's my second book . The first book I wrote was a step by step guide to building wealth from a dollar , which was part of my financial literacy blog that I had that was acquired . Um , that book did really well . This one has been a little bit of a slow burn .
I haven't been promoting it like I should , but I'm going to start this upcoming week really pushing it heavily .
I'm really excited , man . I'm excited to go through it , just because I have my own . You have way more experience than I do with scaling and team building and stuff . I've got a probably a micro version of what you've implemented , but I've I'm teaching more and more of that now . So many of my students have our scaling , which is amazing .
It's like , okay , all my stuff definitely works , because now people are slammed , but then you get into a whole other set of challenges because now you got to replicate yourself and you got to build . So the next course I'm working on is actually a scaling course and a mastery type business course .
So I'm totally going to read this and probably pull some of those What you have in your book and your resources for that Enjoyment We'd love a review too . Oh for sure . Yep , i'll give you a glowing review , for sure . I'm excited . I'm excited to check it out , just because now , this is kind of the next for me personally .
I mean , this is something I figured we would probably chat about with once we're done recording , but we'll just keep rolling . That's kind of . the next thing for me is to really help people in the scaling end of things , now that I've got students who are six figures and beyond . So it's like , okay , yeah , we need to get into some team building now .
So yes , yes , definitely . Because , yeah , man , i mean , once you do that and you pull yourself out of the day to day , there's , it's a crazy transition , it's almost like yeah , what do I do now ?
Yeah , you like to run a smoothie for ?
a little bit .
Yeah .
Yeah , it's one of those things .
Well , john , you're a great example to look up to and to follow . Man , we'll have all of your , all of your stuff linked your , your five , four , digitalcom , your johnsonnersco I'm always a fan of everyone with a fellow dot co website .
Yeah , man Couldn't get the dot com .
Unfortunately , you know , I actually think dot co , dot , co is cooler , it just looks cool to me . Say me like joshallcom . I think is a like . actually , joshallcom is a lawyer in Columbus too , because one time one of my old clients sent a check to him And he was like , hey , i'm the other Josh Hall . I got a check to a web designer . I think it's you .
And I was like , oh my gosh , yep , they . They just Google joshallcom . Yeah , yeah , yeah , very , very parallel stuff . I love it . You're up to man , it's a , it's been a pleasure to connect .
I think we'll have to do a round two .
Maybe we'll talk scaling on round two , man .
Yes , man , let's do it Absolutely . I'm ready . Awesome , i'm ready , josh .
Awesome , john . Well , do you have any ? do you have like a ? maybe a closing thought for web designers , based off of what we talked about , who are ? you could take this however you want , but if you were to encourage , maybe one of what , if you were to encourage like your ideal web design student , what would you ? what would you tell them ?
I would say Hmm , good question . Kind of open ended . But you know , if they're like if there's maybe a more concise question , be like what would you encourage them , with what's working today , to be a professional ?
Yeah , I would say there's a lot of designers that are jumping in the space and want to be a part of this and just love design as a whole . I would say to learn as much as you can about the visual design elements , but then also anything that you can learn regarding UI , ux , because that's going to make you a differentiator in space .
focus on getting projects , working with friends , family , entrepreneurs , maybe doing a few projects for free , just to get your foot in the door and create some social proof and ultimately start to share your work .
That's probably the biggest thing that's helped me in regards to working with folks and collaborating with clients is to show my work , show the process , show what you're working on So the ups and downs of running an agency and I think that's going to lead to a lot of partnerships and just questions and folks willing to work with you in the long run .
Ah , beautiful , great sentiment to end off , man . John , thanks for coming on today , thanks for being here for the time .
What a pleasure , man , everyone .
Everyone go to Josh Hall dot co to check out this interview and they're going to John D Saunders dot co to connect with John .
So until next time , man . There it is , hi , josh . Thanks again , man .
Woo , a master class That was in building and scaling a thriving web design business in today's landscape . I want to thank John again for coming on . Had an absolute blast chatting with him . I really feel like he's just kind of a different version of myself .
But the cool thing like we talked about with with web design is there's so many different ways you can do things catered to your goals , your lifestyle , your energy management . Like John is an entrepreneur through and through , has a lot of irons in the fire but is also very adapt to scaling and building a team . You can follow that route .
You can follow the route that I took , which is a little less than where John is as far as the amount of scaling and team members he's running . Or you can be a solopreneur , like the beauty about web design is you can do whatever you want to do .
I hope that what John and I covered in this conversation helped shed some light on how to build and sustain and scale a web design business in today's landscape by charging higher rates and what goes into this project . So , again , you can find out more about John at his personal website , john D Saunders dot co .
Which has his accelerator course , some awesome resources . And then he's got a YouTube channel . You can definitely recommend that you connect with them on any social media that you're active on when you go there . And then his agency for reference is five , four digital dot com . That's the number five and the word for f ? O ? U R digital dot com .
Again , thanks to John for coming on . I'm sure this will not be round one . I have a fair , the only round . I'm sure we'll do a round two . I think it would be fun to talk about scaling on a higher level . So if you think that would be fun to let me know by going to the show notes for this episode of Josh Hall dot co . Slash two , six , six .
Until next time , friends , thanks for joining . I so appreciate you being a listener of the show . I know there's a lot of options for podcasts out there , but to welcome me into your ears is oh , now it's getting weird . Oh , i was such a great outro , now I made it weird . Thank you for listening .
That's what I meant to say without the risk of things sounding creepy and weird . All right , i'm going to end it before it goes downhill from here . See you in the next episode , friends .