[00:00:00] Josh: hello friends. Welcome into episode 229, and this one, I'm so excited to bring on one of my web design students, somebody who is just a remarkable online entrepreneur in so many ways.
[00:00:12] Josh: This is Marie Brown, whose online brand is called Beyond the Kitchen Table, which I absolutely love. And what's really cool about what I've seen Marie do with her business over the past couple years is not only have I seen her grow her business, Incredibly, but how she's done it is what was really interesting and I wanted to bring her on specifically to talk about how she gets clients and how she markets primarily now through Instagram.
[00:00:38] Josh: Now, as you'll find out, she started her business like a lot of us do through word of mouth and referrals and networking and personal networks. But she even explains in more detail here that she realized Instagram was where a lot of her ideal clients were heading and where they were spending a lot of time.
[00:00:55] Josh: And in this episode, she kind of pulls the curtain back on how she has used Instagram to just blow up her business and have a huge pipeline of clients. She also dives into the marketing strategy that she uses and the content strategy. The, the trick with social media is how do you do it consistently and what type of content do you put out there?
[00:01:14] Josh: Marie's strategies for this I actually learned a lot from, and I'm gonna 100% apply to my business, so I'm excited to hear how it helps you out as well. We also dive into how she did find out what niche is best for her. She's also got a podcast and some other thing that she's, other things that she's done that have really helped grow her business as well.
[00:01:32] Josh: So I can't wait for you to hear this one. What an awesome chat with Marie Brown. Without further ado, here she is. Let's talk about how to get clients via Instagram and just get a feel for what's worked for her in her business so that you can do the same. All right, let's dive in.
[00:01:52] Josh: Marie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for taking some time today. I know you said it's dreary and rainy in your neck of the woods, but I hope to brighten your day here by having a good chat with you, .
[00:02:03] Marie: Well, thank you so much for having me. I've been a, a long time listener to your podcast, so it seems great to be on here.
[00:02:09] Marie: Finally,
[00:02:10] Josh: a long time listener. You've been a student of mine for quite some time now. It has been so cool seeing what you have done with your business. Marie and I, I'm really excited in this chat to dive into marketing strategies because you, I've, I've seen, especially since I've been on Instagram, I'm sure we'll talk about that.
[00:02:28] Josh: You have a podcast now. You've done a few different things. I've always seen your brand and I feel like it always has. It's come across professional. I feel like you're represented well. For my sense, it seems like you are confidently marketing yourself. So I'm excited to dive into, to see what you've learned, maybe what's worked, maybe what hasn't worked so well.
[00:02:46] Josh: Uh, and by the way, before we even dive in, I love your brand. I think I told you this when you joined my web design club. I love your brand beyond the kitchen table. I just think that's such a cool name. It's memorable. Uh, before we dive into, do you wanna let people first off know, uh, where you're based out of?
[00:03:01] Josh: I can. I bet they can probably guess since we talked about the weather. Uh, and then I'd love to know when somebody asks you what you do, Marie, what do you tell them?
[00:03:08] Marie: Okay. Yeah. Well, you can probably tell by the fact that I mentioned the weather or you mentioned the weather and, uh, and my accent that I'm based in the UK so it is a very wet, gray, miserable day at the moment.
[00:03:21] Marie: Um, but I'm, uh, in a town called Seven Oaks, which is just outside London. Um, we're on the way to France, if you like. Mm. Um, and in terms of what I say, when people ask what I do, I usually say I'm a website designer. I probably should start to say that I run a website design business because I think that it, it's that difference in mindset and difference.
[00:03:45] Marie: It depends who you're talking to, of course, but between whether you are almost like a freelancer or whether you have a business, and I think people have got a very different perception of you depending upon which of those they think you
[00:03:56] Josh: are. Ooh, that's a great point. Way to kick off the conversation with a philosophical great point. That is philosophical because it is an instant mindset shift for the client. Like yeah, if you say, I'm a web designer, this, this is, goes into like SEO too, because this is one of the common questions I always get. I'm sure you've seen this too. I'm sure you've probably maybe tried this out.
[00:04:17] Josh: It's. Do I say I'm a web designer or a web design business? Cause yeah, when you put yourself out there as a web designer, like you said, Marie, it's so easy to come across like a commodity or just like a, a freelancer. Whereas if you come across as a business, it probably says that you do more than just website designers.
[00:04:34] Josh: Probably a lot more to it. When did that, uh, well, I guess, so you said you're kind of playing with that now. Have you done that before or was this like the light bulb moment that tells you maybe I'll switch
[00:04:43] Marie: this up. No, it was only a few weeks ago. I was thinking maybe I should start to call myself. But it depends upon who you're talking to. I still generally use website designer, but I, I think I should start when I'm an appropriate company using web design business. I think that would, yeah, I think that would
[00:04:58] Josh: work. Let's do that. Can you do me a favor and just keep track of how that goes and, I mean, I'm not sure how to measure conversions on that exactly, but I'm sure you'd get a feel for like, maybe the, the types of clients you might attract or like get into a different discussion.
[00:05:11] Josh: Uh, that cuz yeah, they're probably gonna be interested in more like marketing services and everything. And speaking of marketing, I would love to know, first off, how long have you been in business?
[00:05:21] Marie: So I've been doing this for about five years now. And you know, before that I'm, I'm no spring chicken for those that are listening on a podcast. Um, I'm in my fifties, so I spent nearly 20 years working in corporate life. I worked in finance and then I quit. I set up my own small business doing something completely different, and I had absolutely zero website design skills and I outsourced my very first website to a local agency. And it was a terrible experience.
[00:05:53] Marie: I was small and they basically put me to the bottom of the priority. I, you know, the website was late and it was not really quite fit for purpose. It looked fine, but I couldn't change a single thing on it. Gotcha. And, you know, they wanted to charge me a, a fortune every time I wanted to do something like, you know, change the Twitter logo was gonna cost the, the equivalent of, of a hundred dollars to change the color of the Twitter logo.
[00:06:21] Marie: So, um, a couple of years later when I needed a new. and I got, uh, an outrageous quote from them, outrageous in the sense of what my business could afford. I built my own and actually it sort of grew from there. And, you know, I realized that there was a real gap in the market between the local agencies and to do it yourself, especially for people who were my talk at audience, which is female entrepreneurs who are generally on their second career.
[00:06:50] Marie: So they're, you know, 35 plus usually, and they are not necessarily interested in learning about website design and building their own website. So, you know, there was a real market there. So I ended up pivoting from what I'd been doing before and, and starting a website design business, which, you know, was never on the cards. It was never part of the plan. And, you know, when I left school there wasn't even such a thing as website. So, , right. Well
[00:07:16] Josh: it's, and it's such a great, like your story is, Paralleled with so many people who like fumble into it or somebody just asks you like, can you build a website? And you're like, yeah, I'll do it.
[00:07:27] Josh: Or you just, like in your case, you just saw this opportunity and I, you hit so many interesting points in that, but one was you identified like your target market, you know who you would like to serve. Maybe they're not in the exact industry, but you know, like the, the avatar, the personality type, the type of people you wanna attract and serve.
[00:07:45] Josh: And you realize there's this gap. There's a lot of folks like yourself would probably try to DIY it. If they are coming from a corporate world, you know, it's probably gonna be a nightmare unless they happen to be tech savvy. But then there's the agency route, which like you experience and like a lot of other people experience doesn't always go so well.
[00:08:03] Josh: So there is that cap in the market. I love that you found that, you identified it and then you felt like you were the one. To step in that seat. So that's, gosh, what a gold lesson of like offering that. And I'm kind of curious, like what made you feel confident to be a web designer? Did you feel like you had good design chops? Did you feel pretty tech savvy? Like what made you feel like this is something I can do and then I'd love to go into writing the marketing stuff? Um,
[00:08:28] Marie: I think probably like a lot of people who fall into it rather than having a background as say a graphic designer or, or something like that. Um, I had no confidence in my skills originally, but I knew because of talking to friends in particular who had set up their own business that there was a need for this and I could do it better than they could do it themselves.
[00:08:48] Marie: And actually when I started out, I did think that I would work mainly with product based businesses and it only took me about two websites to realize that they, um, it's not so much that they're difficult, although I think they are more difficult, but it's more that if you are making candles, for example, you've gotta sell a hell of a dollar candles in order to pay back the cost of a website.
[00:09:11] Marie: Whereas if you are a local physio or yoga teacher or something like that, you haven't gotta sell that many services in order to pay back that investment in the website. So it was as much that, that I realized that people would pay for a website who were in service based businesses more so than products, which were more local and handmade, that
[00:09:33] Josh: kind of thing.
[00:09:34] Josh: And were you doing, like econ, did you try a couple eCommerce sites then? Is that, is, was that the experience? Yeah,
[00:09:39] Marie: I did. So I built a, a website for, um, a skincare brand who was still going. They've completely rebranded. They've moved across to Shopify. I put 'em on WooCommerce and they've got a completely new name, but a fantastic brand.
[00:09:53] Marie: It's gorgeous, uh, product. So that was the very first one that I built for somebody else. But it was, you know, they, they kept wanting to make lots of different changes and it was not really, I just found it quite tricky. To, to deal with that compared to the ease of doing what was more like a brochure site and you know, and again, they had to sell a lot of skincare in order to pay back the cost of that website.
[00:10:16] Josh: Yeah. And that, that leads into marketing too, because if you don't know who you serve, it's hard to market because it's hard to figure out your messaging. And I think we've, I think maybe you and I talked about this, uh, on a, on a hot seat in our, in our, in the web design club, but we, I feel like you and I talked about like how important it is to figure out what not to do.
[00:10:34] Josh: Because once you understand what you don't do, you can say, I don't do e-commerce shops. And yeah, it's just, you know, here's, here's some partners, here's some people I trust and recommend. That's just not something I do. And it makes for such an easier time in business because you know exactly what you don't do.
[00:10:49] Josh: Now, there's a lot of people who like the e-commerce world, and that's great because that's such a needed niche right now. But to your point, like if you try something out and you don't wanna do it, don't do. There's no harm in saying no, and that will free up for the opportunities. So you found, and I feel
[00:11:05] Marie: ahead, I feel I don't, I didn't, I can't do as good a job on an eCommerce website, not because of the tech, but because you've got all sorts of issues, abandoned carts and, and funnels and upsells that you really need to know how that all works.
[00:11:20] Marie: And not just from a tech point of view, but also from a psychological point of view. And how to get people to ultimately put things in their cart and check out and then, you know, buy more things. And compared to a service based website where there is a customer journey and you've gotta understand how customer journeys work to be able to build a good website for a service based business.
[00:11:41] Marie: And they're just two completely different skills. Not necessarily from a tech point of view, but definitely from a marketing point of view.
[00:11:47] Josh: Great point. What, what's your superpower or what, what are a couple of your superpowers? Marie, do you think it's in the journey? Is it in branding, is it in messaging, is it in conversions?
[00:11:59] Josh: All the above. What, what do you feel like your superpower is? So
[00:12:01] Marie: I, I think it's in the journey, in the messaging and because I come from a business background and that was how I set myself apart in the first place. It's very much a case of trying to get across to clients that I understand the business side.
[00:12:15] Marie: I do understand the marketing side and the tech is easy, , that's not necessarily how I felt, but that was, that was effectively the message i, I gave to clients. And interestingly, I've just come off a call with, um, potential client and, um, she's spoken to somebody else and she is looking to set up a, a tutoring agency.
[00:12:36] Marie: And I was talking to her about the fact that her superpower is in the matchmaking or it's in two things. It's in the finding the right tutors. To get on her books in the first place, and then it's matching them to the children and she'd spoken to somebody else who was talking to her about SEO and how she should have all the profiles of the tutors on the homepage and various different things, and thinking that's bonkers from a customer and a business point of view.
[00:13:03] Marie: And that's, we had a great discussion because of that. You know, she, she, she felt that I really understood her business and I understood a client's perspective of her business and what it would take for me to choose her as a tutor as opposed to another agency. And I think that, so I think that's where, you know, I'm recognizing now, it's taken me a while, but I'm recognizing now that that's really where I add the value.
[00:13:27] Marie: It's not necessarily in the actual building of the website. It's, it's in understanding that messaging, that customer journey that somebody needs to go through. Um, and it's, and it's almost mapping it out rather than the actual, you know, building whether the image goes on the left or the right and it's got round corners or whatever. That's not really, you know, where I, where my superpower is.
[00:13:46] Josh: and I don't want to downgrade the importance of development and building and design, cuz those are all really important, particularly with conversions. But honestly, what is more important is the journey and the conversion of like, the messaging and all those things that, as you know, in my experience, I worried about later on.
[00:14:05] Josh: Like, I, I did the design and development first, which I think is pretty natural. You wanna figure out how to build a site and get clients and then, then eventually you get going on messaging and other things. But it's a, it's a great reminder to put that in the forefront and to make sure, before we even talk about tools and tech and design and build, you talk about messaging, you talk about your clients, their clients, like.
[00:14:25] Josh: What their customer type is the journey of the website. I think what you've experienced and what you've probably learned in your short journey so far is the more you talk about your clients and how they can grow their business through their website, the other stuff will work itself out. And one, one thing I found too, I don't know if you've seen this, but when you shift the the, the conversations to like their customers and how somebody's going to go through the website to grow their business, the client doesn't care that much about the design after that.
[00:14:54] Josh: Like whereas before maybe they were hung up on like, oh, I want the image on the right, or I want the image to be rounded instead of square. Once you really start talking about messaging and stuff, their mind goes there. And then once you get to that point, I, in my experience later on in my career, I learned that most clients were like, yeah, just whatever for the design for the most part.
[00:15:12] Josh: Unless they were super tricky. Have you seen that as well? Like it was kind of a roundabout saying, have you seen that clients are more focused on the bigger picture stuff rather than the nitpicky design stuff, which drives most designers crazy.
[00:15:24] Marie: It's very mixed. So I think the majority are much more focused on the business and the messaging. And if you can basically give them confidence that you are gonna take care of that, and you're gonna give them something that really works, then they're fine. But you do get some clients who, especially those that are more creative. So, um, for example, I did a website for a branding photographer, and from a design point of view, she was much more tricky.
[00:15:47] Marie: Lovely, lovely lady. Nothing, you know, nothing personal. But it took a while to get the design right with her because she had that creative vision she wasn't quite so good at, at translating it to saying, this is exactly what I want. She was very much a case of, well, I don't want that and I don't want that.
[00:16:03] Marie: And so we had a few goes before we got it right. We did get it right. Um, so sometimes you get clients like that, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, there are a lot of clients who actually just want you to take the stress of a website away. Yeah.
[00:16:16] Josh: And I, and I think again, the, the power in that is that, Most clients may not even think about the journey or think about how the website is gonna actually help them grow their business. They just want a nice, pretty website. But as soon as you can turn their mind to like, let's look at this as an investment tool for your business, suddenly that's gonna change things more, more often than not in most cases. So I love seeing that that's kind of played out for you, particularly as you knew your customer, like your ideal customers. It sounds like most of them are probably more business
[00:16:46] Marie: minded. Well, I, I market myself that, you know, your website is not a piece of it, it's a marketing tool. And I mean, I still get clients who will say to me things like, oh, I need to buy a new laptop. What, you know, what should I get? Or things like that. And I'm going, I'm not it .
[00:17:01] Josh: Right. Not gonna fix your internet. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Well, your, your homepage is so well crafted. I mean, you can tell you've spent a lot of time refining your site websites for entrepreneurs and small business owners. So right there, if you're a small business owner, entrepreneur, I know you're a good fit.
[00:17:19] Josh: Strategically designed to attract and book more clients. Beautiful. Like so well said. Nice heading, nice subheading. Strong call to action. What I'm kind of curious, cuz I want, I really am excited to get to the, your current marketing channels to see what's working. But I am curious, how did you start and how did you build your client base? Were they per, was it in your personal network? Was it people in your professional network? What, how did you start getting clients?
[00:17:44] Marie: Slowly is the answer. And I know it's something a lot of website designers struggle with in the. Um, and it takes, it takes a while. So I started, well I, if you ignore family and friends, um, first of all who I practiced on, but in terms of proper paying clients, I think I started, I put out a, um, a notice effectively on the local Facebook group for, in the town I'm in for, you know, women mums, uh, locally.
[00:18:13] Marie: And so I got my very first client that way and it was nobody I knew and I hadn't come across her before at all. But I think subsequent to that, it was very much through network and going out and starting to meet people. So going to a couple of local networking events and. It's something I still struggle with a little bit actually, which is finding the right networking events.
[00:18:39] Marie: So, you know, we have some mums and business groups local to me, and they were the ones that I went to. I, I keep toying with Chamber of commerce and I've, I think I've decided no, they are not the right people for me because that's not where my target audience is. Yes, I could get clients there, I'm sure, but not the ones that are actually in my target audience.
[00:19:01] Marie: So the local mums and business groups have been a really good place for me, not just to get clients from, but also make the connections to get clients from, um, you know, and I match, for example, a, a copywriter locally and she has been great, um, a source of potential clients, um, and leads for me because, you know, she obviously, but she's just extremely well connected anyway.
[00:19:24] Marie: But she also, you know, she has in her client base the kind of people that I want to work with.
[00:19:30] Josh: Gotcha. So you did a mix of, it sounds like, in person for sure, but also online marketing in there as well with joining some of those. Is that right? Like were some of those groups online?
[00:19:41] Marie: Yeah, they, they were. And, and, you know, initially also through my own Facebook page, um, I put a lot of effort into a Facebook page and got a lot of traction that
[00:19:50] Josh: way and that, so did you start your Facebook page, what, five years ago? Was that about like 2017 or, or so that you did that? And so now, oh, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. I was
[00:20:01] Marie: gonna say, but now , I mean, I don't use, I, I rarely, I rarely post on my Facebook page. I keep meaning to post a little bit more often, but I get crickets. Um, and that is because all of my clients or or my target audience have moved. They're not on Facebook, or if they are, they're on Facebook to connect with family and friends. They spend all of their time on another social media platform, Instagram.
[00:20:25] Josh: What a transition. You can tell you're a podcaster. I love it. cause I didn't even need to ask about that. So yeah. The transition to Instagram, would you say Instagram is your main channel right now for marketing? Yeah. Hundred. In getting clients
[00:20:37] Marie: and how? Well, my main, my main social media channel, so referrals and networking is still probably my number one, but then it would be Instagram.
[00:20:47] Josh: Okay. And did you, did you, when did you start your Instagram? I'm curious if you like, started it and then kind of built it, or if you just kind of noticed that everyone was going there and then you jumped on, on board once you noticed all your clients were spending a lot of time over there.
[00:21:02] Josh: I don't know if you thought about it like that or, or when you really launched your Instagram.
[00:21:06] Marie: So, um, thinking back, I, I had my Instagram account ages ago and I posted a few times and it's just, it's not for me, it's not, I'm not visual and my business is not visual. I mean, uh, uh, thinking back now, that's nuts.
[00:21:22] Marie: My business is very visual, but at the time I saw, you know, I spent all my day at a computer. It's not a visual business and Instagram is just not gonna work for me. So I posted a few times, three or four times, literally, I think my very. Post was a picture of the sky and my second post was a picture of trainers because I was going out for a run that's definitely dates it because I don't go running anymore way past that.
[00:21:47] Marie: But, um, so I did try it and just nothing. Gotcha. And I was, I was doing really well on Facebook and then I noticed over time my Facebook, uh, reach twin that started to really go down and I was struggling to get the traction that I had had on Facebook. I never had a lot of people following my page on Facebook, but I had really good engagement on it.
[00:22:09] Marie: And so I think I tried LinkedIn and I have a bit of a love hate relationship with LinkedIn in that I will try it for months and decide I'm just fed up with it and leave it for three months and then go back and try it again. Mm-hmm. . So I really tried linked. And I just, I, I struggled with that and I, I can't remember, I, I must have had an Instagram training or something like that, and I just thought, I'm gonna give this a go.
[00:22:33] Marie: And I realized the people who had used to follow me on my Facebook page were, were on Instagram. Mm. And very quickly I got a client, um, on Instagram who had met me at a networking event when I'd very first started and had followed my Facebook page. And then she was on Instagram and not really bothering with Facebook anymore.
[00:22:56] Marie: And the fact I'd moved over to Instagram, she saw me again, and that's when she got in touch. So that preempted, although we never met through Instagram, you know, my being active on there actually preempt
[00:23:07] Josh: that was the connection, that was the, that that triggered her
[00:23:09] Marie: getting. So, um, so I really made an effort on Instagram from then onwards. And, um, I continue to occasionally have a dabble in LinkedIn and get fed up with it and and move back to Instagram.
[00:23:22] Josh: That's fascinating. Yeah. It's, it's, it's also one thing I'm noticing that seems to be a common thread with you is that you seem to be very good at like observing what's going on and noticing the mark.
[00:23:33] Josh: Cause a lot of people may not have really thought about that and just what I kept on doing what they do normally do. But what I'm gathering, I think what is a really important skill for everyone to take from this is that you gotta listen to where your market is and where they're going and what they're saying and where, where they're a little more active.
[00:23:49] Josh: It's easier said than done, but I feel like because you know your market so well that like what a great case study that you felt like got a sense of Instagram was, was gonna be where a lot of people were going. And then sure enough one conversion, you know, that, that, that really sets the tone for like, okay, this. This is where, this is where I'm headed. What made you decide to make that like the primary channel? What, what made you and when did that happen where you were like, I'm going all in on Instagram For my, for most of my work?
[00:24:18] Marie: Yeah. I suspect it was probably about two years ago. Um, I dunno, maybe it was more than that. Maybe it was before the before lockdown. Um, the reason I chose Instagram as my primary platform was because it was working and it was working in a way that the others weren't. So LinkedIn should work for me, but I've never been able to really get it to work. I. And I, and, and Facebook has say, just dwindled.
[00:24:40] Marie: And I think I know the difference as to why Instagram has worked and LinkedIn hasn't. And that's because the network of connections I have on Instagram. Instagram, the people who follow me and engage with me, they're very much my tribe. Whereas on LinkedIn, I've got a very disparate group of people, some of whom offer my old corporate days, um, some of which are just random connections from when I did a LinkedIn course.
[00:25:04] Marie: And they said, just connect with everybody. And so and, and I haven't really managed to get that, that kind of group together. Whereas on Instagram, I feel that I have, and obviously I don't have a massive following on Instagram, it's 1300 people as as we speak. Um, but I get clients from. And, uh, you know, and I regularly get clients from it.
[00:25:24] Marie: And it's a combination of people who find me on Instagram and have not had any connection with me before. And then other people who have, you know, found me somewhere else and they followed me for a while and then, you know, I post something which will trigger them getting in
[00:25:40] Josh: touch. It's funny you mentioned the LinkedIn thing where a training, it sounds like probably like a corporate mentality where someone's like, just friend everybody in the world and build your network. It sounds like a, like I found this to be true with a lot of realtors. Like people in my network and my personal network who are realtors now, they'll have like 3000 friends. I'm like, I know you don't have 3000 friends.
[00:26:01] Josh: These are like 3000 people that you may have met and added and now suddenly you're gonna, you know, try to market to them at some point with your realty services. Cuz everyone could use filthy, uh, for the most part. But you said it, when you know your target, target demographic, you can really hone in on the right people and like, it's such a great point and reminder. Yeah, your Instagram is a huge 1300 followers, but I mean, that is 1300 people who are probably, a lot of them are qualified, they're reengaging with you.
[00:26:28] Josh: I imagine a lot of them are current customers and are gonna be repeat buyers. And your content. I, I'd love to talk about your actual content because it seems like, you know, maybe the pain points and the challenges like, Tell me about your content strategy. Did you, what, how, what were your posts in the beginning versus what is your content strategy now?
[00:26:47] Josh: You doing, I, I kind of know because I followed you for a while, but for those who don't know yet who haven't followed you yet, are you doing videos and educational posts? Are you doing personal stuff? What's your content strategy
[00:26:57] Marie: like? So when I started out, like most people, it was completely random . Um, but what I try and do now is a mixture of three different types of content. So I have, um, the kind of content which is basically sales content. So it's both a, a direct sales content. So it's, this is how you can work with me or a, um, I'm taking bookings now for January, 2023 for new websites and, and then I might say a little bit more about it to try and sell it. So there is direct sales content in there.
[00:27:29] Marie: It's part of the mix. It's not all, because if you just post that kind of stuff, then people will just tune out and stop following you. Um, as well as direct sales content. There's indirect sales content. So I post for example, reels in particular of websites that I've. And especially if I've got a before picture, um, you know, that's great to put in there and I'll show, you know, different pages and as part of the real, I might talk about the, um, some of the features of the website.
[00:27:57] Marie: So I might say, you know, testimonials used in key places, or I might talk about call to action button. Or, you know, it's, you know, the before might have been really, um, text heavy, whereas now it's, you know, it's, it's much more contemporary in his field and those kind of things. So, you know, I do quite a lot of that kind of, um, stuff on Instagram, which doesn't get great engagement and it doesn't get great reach, but I think it's really important to show what you've, mm.
[00:28:24] Marie: Yes. Um, then probably most of my content is, is more educational content. And so I might, you know, it might be three, three, um, tips for seo. Um, it might be, I did one the other day about, um, your contact page and making sure that your contact page, um, is visible and there's an email address on there, because otherwise people won't know how to get in contact with you.
[00:28:48] Marie: Um, so it's, it's kind of little tips and tricks, which, um, obviously if you've got a professional doing your website, you don't necessarily need to know. But if you are a DIY and. Actually, a lot of my clients are xdi wires. So they've built their original website themselves, not been ever been a hundred percent happy with it.
[00:29:11] Marie: Usually their business has grown and suddenly they get to a point they think, oh, I just need to outsource this and I need, that's a great client. You know, it's not, my old website was embarrassing and I need something that actually I will be happy to share with people. So I get a lot of those. So, you know, sharing that kind of content is good, um, because it really appeals to those.
[00:29:32] Marie: And, um, so yeah, so do a lot of educational content. And then the third type of content I do is what I call connection content. And I do this mainly on stories, but I do do it a little bit on my Instagram grid as well. And it's just, you know, my client is the busy mom who is trying to run a business and have a family.
[00:29:52] Marie: So I have lots of things. I had one the other day, and I'm gonna misquote it, but it was something like, um, I never thought I'd be the type of woman to wake up at 5:00 AM and work out. And then it, and then a bit further down, it says, turns out I was right, because, you know, you, you were presented with this ideal of, of what it's like to be a, you know, a super mum.
[00:30:11] Marie: And none of us live up to that. So it's, you know, it's memes about coffee and it's about laundry and it's about, you know, teenagers or toddlers or whatever it might be. And it's just fun. And I get a lot of engagement on those posts,
[00:30:26] Josh: which yeah, you, I was just, I'm looking right now. You got, that was a good one for sure.
[00:30:30] Josh: That, that was a big one. Uh, I imagine especially something like that, that. That just opens it up for some sort of conversation or somebody be like, oh my gosh, yes, thank, thank goodness. I don't feel.
[00:30:41] Marie: Yeah, exactly. And, and you know, it's, it's showing that you understand their life, um, which I think is really important with, with, with clients.
[00:30:48] Marie: So, um, so it's those three types of content and I try and do reels as much as I can, but they take time to do carousel posts work really well, and, and just static images or, or, or quotes. And, um, and I take quite a lot. Um, I know we're gonna come onto my podcast, but I take quite a lot from my, that I repurpose from my podcast and blog and use that on, on Instagram, especially for that middle category of, of the kind of educational
[00:31:14] Josh: content.
[00:31:15] Josh: Gosh, I love this. I'm learning so much from you as I'm taking social media more seriously. Um, and I I love your breakdown of the, the, the buckets of content. So you've got sales, which there's kind of two paths. There's like direct sales and indirect sales kinda show in your work, which I have a thought on that I wanna come back to.
[00:31:32] Josh: Yeah. Have your, uh, educational stuff. Absolutely. Content building, authority building. Even, even with some of the stuff that doesn't get that much reaction, maybe people are still seeing it. There's just, there's a type of post that gets likes and doesn't get likes even though it's, it's being seen and it's probably sinking in.
[00:31:49] Josh: They just, somebody doesn't hit the like button, uh, or the love button in case of Instagram and then your connection. I like that because that, that's a whole bucket of different kind of stuff that could be quotes, could be funny, could be personal. Uh, I, I currently am kind of following Amy Porterfield's, uh, map.
[00:32:06] Josh: It's basically all of that, except it's split into five categories. But I think, you know, I love things in three, so I think I'm actually gonna take this approach with just bucketing things into the three. I really like that sales. Educational connection. I love that. The, the one thing I wanted to mention, the portfolio thing, like show showing a before and after.
[00:32:24] Josh: Yeah. I wanna tell you, and anyone who does this, that is first of all such an important and great strategy and. Those tend to not get the most engagement. Hmm. And, but again, it's just like the other thing. While somebody may not like that, it doesn't mean that they're not seeing that and it's making a big impact.
[00:32:43] Josh: It's just like, it's one of those, I, I don't know what the psychology would be behind that, but maybe cuz I, I experienced that as well when I used to post on Facebook, the before and afters of, of projects. I, I never really did too much social media, but I did those, those were always something I did. And I often had clients refer back to those, like, they were like, I saw that you redid this one site that I saw on Facebook.
[00:33:04] Josh: I really like that. I'm like, wow, why didn't you freaking like the post? Um, but I, I don't know what is behind that, but I say that to say, don't expect a lot of engagement from those, but know how important they are. I think that's such an important lesson for those before and afters, portfolio pieces, case studies, um, like work that we recently did.
[00:33:24] Josh: I, I love that you did that. I would definitely encourage you Marie to just keep going with those cuz it's. Again, it just shows a lot. And I'm definitely gonna start liking your, your portfolio before and afters, . Yeah.
[00:33:35] Marie: Help, please do. One of the great things about those is as well though, is I always tag in the client, and more often than not, the client will comment on it and they will obviously comment really positively that they, it's like, wow, I still, I, I love my new website and, and you know, sometimes it will go on to say, you know, Highly recommend Marie.
[00:33:54] Marie: And so it's really good to, to see that, um, come out of it as well. So, and, and you know, the thing with Instagram and with reels is you compare it with some good music and actually people will, you know, look at it for a little bit longer. So sometimes the, the, the choice of music actually has a massive impact on the, on the reach of it. So some of my meals along those lines have done really well, and then some of them have not done quite so well.
[00:34:19] Josh: And let's be honest, when you tag your clients, since you know a lot of your clients are on Instagram, that instantly becomes a referral piece because they can share it and they can comment, like you said, and they can push it out. And I, I don't know if, are you empowering your clients in any way right now as far maybe giving them ideas on how to share it, where to share it. Uh, are, are you doing anything like that right now?
[00:34:42] Marie: No, I'm not actually. I probably should do more of that. Um, uh, but no, they do tend to share it. They certainly tend to, because I will usually then also share it on Instagram on my stories. So, so for anybody who doesn't really understand Instagram, we're probably getting into quite a bit of technical detail here. Yeah. Um, but I will share it all my stories as well. Um, and then often yeah, they will, they will share it from
[00:35:02] Josh: there. A lot of this stuff, Basic principles even with no matter what platform you're on though, you, I mean, yeah, there's the story aspect and real aspect, which I'm still trying to figure out how they're different.
[00:35:13] Josh: I, I just, I'm like 80 on Instagram. I don't get it. But , it's the basic principles and I will say, so. We're gonna have a little hot seat coaching segment here, Marie, because as your coach, one thing I would definitely recommend the next priority item for you with, with what you've built so far, you have such a strong Instagram presence, and it's so clear that you're like, you're strategic and mapped on what you're doing.
[00:35:35] Josh: I feel like the missing piece for you right now is some sort of like launch pack or some sort of client empowerment that even just gives them the the ways to, like, once you post. Share it out. And I've applied this to my podcast. One thing you'll, you'll find out here is once your episode goes live, I'm going to email you, um, from a template, the basics of like the, the episode, where to get it, how to watch it, and then I'll give you some resources on how to share it out.
[00:36:01] Josh: And for the, you're tech savvy and social media driven, so I probably don't need to tell you anything, but for the average guest, they might just need a nudge to like push it out there and just say like, Hey, share this. Here's some ideas on, on how to get the word out there. I want people to hear this conversation and I'll help you grow your business too.
[00:36:18] Josh: Um, so I think maybe that idea with a website project is usually the thing that most people, most web designers are not thinking about. Or it's like after the fact, like you're just excited to get the project done, you tag 'em. But there is this like golden opportunity in front of all web di web designers right now to give them like, Details and steps on what to do, like some sort of empowerment, launch pack, whatever that looks like.
[00:36:45] Josh: So I don't know, I just wanted to share that cuz I feel like for you right now, to me that's like the piece where I'm like, gosh, that could elevate those posts and just add so much more visibility to, to what you're already doing. I think that would be amazing.
[00:36:58] Marie: Well, I'm looking forward to getting that. Email from you, Josh, because I'm gonna be, I do that with my podcast anyway, but I'm gonna be looking at what you write and I'm probably gonna pinch some of your language and your ideas from it. But, um, you, you're right in terms of the social media, because a lot of clients, probably more than half, do naturally share it and tag me anyway.
[00:37:15] Marie: And that they're excited about their than your website and, and you know, the fact it's been built by me. Um, but you do occasionally get them that I had one, which I just launched last week or the week before, and she's really active on Instagram and I'm thinking, hang on a minute, you haven't mentioned your new website.
[00:37:31] Marie: She's got a new gin that's come out, so maybe that's more important than her new website. Um, but um, yeah, so I probably should prompt them a little bit more, or, or not just prompt them, actually give them some guidance as to, as to how to do. Yeah,
[00:37:44] Josh: and I would just make sure they know why, like it's not just to, you know, show your work, but it's to help them build awareness because you might tell them by sharing your new website that might create a bunch of new buzz and a lot more leads for you right now because suddenly you just invested in the sales tool.
[00:38:01] Josh: Get it out there and let them know to get it out there like all the time. They could feature different parts of the website or team members or services Often through social media, clients generally are not gonna think to, to recommend their site and show off their website and their services throughout the year or throughout however much time their, their marketing.
[00:38:22] Josh: So just those little reminders help so much cuz we're all so busy. It's the easy things to do that we just tend to overlook. So just a quick reminder. Well, ah, it just goes such a long way. I'm so excited for you because I do feel like this could just add a whole nother chunk of visibility that. , you don't have to do that much work on, like you can templ tie, like, like I'll send you, it's a template that I continue to refine and.
[00:38:44] Josh: That's it. Like you really don't have to go that wild. I mean, you could, you could go a little more custom depending on the project, and you could go wild with additional graphics and all that stuff, but you know, you could really systematize this to where they do the work for you. So I just, I love that. That's, that's the beauty about social media is you can get a lot of free additional advertising just by empowering clients to, to share their stuff.
[00:39:09] Marie: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I've been realizing probably more and more lately about the benefit of just generally contemplating things as you go throughout your, you know, your business and client processes in particular, and, and trying to standardize things more and just make life easier for your clients as well as yourself. Um, so yeah, this, I think this speeds into that very much. So that's another thing to add to my to-do list. Thanks, Josh.
[00:39:35] Josh: You're welcome. Well, happy to add your to-do list, , just put some deadlines on it. I know you'll crush it though, Marie. I know you'll, you'll get it done in, in awesome fashion. So, um, I would love to talk about your podcast because aside from networking and, and the personal and professional network kind of stuff, you mentioned your Instagram is obviously the biggie.
[00:39:55] Josh: Yes. You have Facebook and, and LinkedIn that are like every once in a while. Your podcast is also a really, really interesting channel. One of the questions that I've gotten more over the last two years than probably anything else is should I start a podcast or can a podcast help grow my website business?
[00:40:12] Josh: I am so excited to hear your thoughts about this because we started talking about it before we went live and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, hold it because I want, I wanna record this. So tell me about your podcast. Why did you start it? What is it? How did you think that fit in with your marketing strategy? Yeah, share, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
[00:40:30] Marie: So, my podcast has been going a little over a year now. It's called the Website Coach. Um, a lot of, you know, I did quite a lot of thinking about the title. I'm not sure it's the best title, but it was the best that I could come up with and. You know, if I think back a few years ago, I remember going to some conference and there being somebody talking about, there was a session on podcasting in the afternoon, and I remember thinking, oh, I'm not gonna bother to listen to that one.
[00:40:53] Marie: I might go home early. And because I had no intention of podcasting ever, it sort of went alongside the YouTube channel and various other things that was in the, I'm never gonna go there Bucket. But the reason I started a podcast was because it's probably to do with getting a dog, which, um, I did a little under three years ago.
[00:41:13] Marie: In fact, you might have heard him barking a little bit earlier on, but he, um, uh, and I started listening to podcasts myself more and more. So every morning I walk in, I have a podcast on, so that's nearly an hour. And when I'm doing things like laundry and stuff around the house, I listen to podcasts. So I am an avid podcast listener and it's where I get most of my business education from.
[00:41:35] Marie: So, um, I realized that there were a lot of my target audience who also listened to podcasts because they're like me, they're spend a lot of time in the car doing laundry out, walking dogs, those kind of things. And there's not a lot else that you can do, but you can listen to podcasts. Yes. So I realized that that was the kind of, you know, there's no point in me doing, even if I wanted to, which I don't, there's no point in me doing a YouTube channel because my target audience does not have time to sit down and watch video.
[00:42:02] Marie: So a podcast very much fitted in with my target audience. And so that was the reason for choosing a podcast as a, an alternative, I was, I was thinking about how else can I reach my, my audience? So that was the reason behind doing the podcast. And. I must admit, in every year of doing a podcast, I don't think I have had a single client find me through my podcast and I'm, I'm gonna come on to possibly, that's possibly because I haven't done the podcast quite right,
[00:42:35] Marie: Um, however, it's not to say that I regret it in the slightest because what it really has done is it's massively deepened the relationship I have with current customers and also with other people. It's definitely got me more known. And so people might find me on Instagram, for example, and then they might listen to my podcast and then they might become a client.
[00:42:54] Marie: But if you ask them where they found me, they'll say Instagram because that was where they originally found me. So it's been really good for just strengthening those relationships and strengthening those touchpoints because obviously is anybody listening to this nose when you've got, when you're listening to people in your ears, it's a very different relationship and it, and it's, you know, you're listening to them for an extended period of time compared to the, you know, 60 30.
[00:43:21] Marie: 60 seconds on a, on an Instagram post. So it's a, it's a very different kind of relationship. So it's definitely strengthened the relationships, but nobody has found me through, just through searching for the podcast. And it reminds me actually of those clients I, I've had in the past, cuz I tend to preempt it now by saying, oh, I haven't got any clients from my website.
[00:43:45] Marie: And that's because they're expecting, you know, that the fact they have a website means that it will promote itself and they're not sending any traffic to it. And it's the same with a podcast. You've got to actually promote it. And Apple, Spotify access, they don't promote it for you. I'm not in the top 10 business podcasts, so nobody's gonna accidentally find me on Apple.
[00:44:08] Marie: They will find me through another channel and then listen to the podcast. So I think I've come to terms with the fact that that's how it's gotta work, is people will find me elsewhere and then find my podcast.
[00:44:20] Josh: So many great points. So when web designers ask me if they should start a podcast, I'm just gonna send them to this clip because what you laid out is the exact benefits of a podcast, but also the exact struggles of, and challenges of a podcast.
[00:44:35] Josh: Because I do think a lot of people start a podcast and then they view it like Google or like YouTube, like, I'm gonna put content out there and people are gonna find it. That is not going to happen unless you are a top tier podcast, which is, it's extremely competitive. Now, depending on the market, especially in business and entrepreneurship, people are not going to find you generally.
[00:44:57] Josh: Like my case is very similar. It's a little bit different because a lot of people I found are searching website, podcast, web design podcast. So, but not many people are searching like website tips, like small business owners are not searching for website conversion tip podcast, you know? And that's kinda what your podcast is in a lot of ways right now.
[00:45:17] Josh: Now, It doesn't mean that it's not extremely valuable and relationship strengthening, but it just means that to get them there, it's probably gonna take a different approach. So I think what you hit right there, Marie, is crucial. It's not the first touch, it's the second touch and it's the like relationship building.
[00:45:35] Josh: The really cool thing about what I think you have with your podcast is because you're able to expand on more topics and get more personal and are you doing interview? How many interviews are you doing on average? Cause I know you do a lot of solo episodes. Are you still doing interviews? Yeah, I am still doing
[00:45:49] Marie: interviews and I think that's one of the mistakes that I've made. I actually have a podcast episode on the things that I've learned from nearly a year of podcasting. I can't remember which episode it is, but if anybody wants. It's thinking about podcasting. It's, it's probably worth a listen to that. But, so I do a mix of solo episodes and guest interviews. I need to do more guest interviews because guest interviews are really good at getting other people to promote your podcast.
[00:46:13] Marie: Yeah. And expanding that network. So actually just last week I sent out about another six invitations to people I'd like to come on my podcast. And, um, so yeah, I intend to do more guest interviews. Definitely. And they're also, I find they take less effort than solo episodes, which take a lot of
[00:46:32] Josh: time. It's, it's true.
[00:46:33] Josh: Yeah. You would think it would be opposite. Wouldn't when? I mean, there is a lot of work in the beginning to systematize scheduling and, and all that stuff. And of course I feel terrible because this is like the third time we had to reschedule this call because I just went through. Wild life, just life just hit my family like crazy last month.
[00:46:50] Josh: But like those are generally the hangups when it comes to interviews. The rest of it is, like you said, it's pretty easy cuz all you need to do is just be curious and have a good conversation and, and just let, let them share whatever the topic is or what they know about it. Does take way less pressure.
[00:47:05] Josh: It takes less editing usually, cuz you don't generally need to chop a bunch of, like if you, if you're stopping and starting in a solo episode, I've found it sometimes takes longer. Uh, especially in the beginning. Now I just go generally and if I cough or something, I'll just leave it in. I don't, I, low editing is the way to go with podcasting for sustainability.
[00:47:23] Josh: But you're right, interviews are, are such great medium and it just, it allows the guests to share it. It's a resource that they can always plug and, and you can dish out, oh, there's so many good things to that. One thing I would. This might be a strategy that might help you, Marie, to grow the podcast and make it, I hate to say make it more worth your while, but just help like get that content back is for your current clients and new clients.
[00:47:46] Josh: I would coaching, sorry, I can't help but get my coaching hat on. That's all right. Get like, get like categories of episodes together that would help your clients. Repurpose those for like, let's say you have a new client and a month or two after their site is live, you could circle back around with them, whether you wanna automate this or do it personally, you could say, Hey, you know, Sally, it was great working with you.
[00:48:10] Josh: I'm so excited that your site's been live for a little while. One thing I wanted to help you out with is I've got like five podcast episodes here that are about how to grow your website and how to drive traffic to it. So you could repurpose your podcast like that, like per like intentionally with clients.
[00:48:24] Josh: And yes, you could a hundred percent do that with Instagram and social media. Side note, that's one thing that I'm gonna do is, uh, I'm gonna say like, if you guys are interested in getting clients, here are like five episodes that will help. I'm gonna do that via email and through social media you could do that.
[00:48:39] Josh: But I would definitely recommend doing that with clients because they may not even know you have a podcast. And just like you said, your target demographic is 100% doing dishes, doing laundry, doing housework, driving, and they're listening to podcasts. Why not have it be yours? And often they just need to know about it.
[00:48:57] Josh: So that's another great strategy to like repurpose the podcast. And like you said, it strengthens that relationships, that relationship even more. It is such a different experience than quick content. And I love video. I'm such a fan of video. I'm glad you're doing it on social media. There is something different though in the trust building factor when you're listening to somebody in your ears for like an hour or hours, over weeks, over weeks, over weeks.
[00:49:27] Josh: So yeah, those are just some of my thoughts on how I think you could probably use your, your podcast even further, deepen those relationships and, and get a lot more, you know, bang for your buck as far as the time you've implemented in it.
[00:49:38] Marie: Yeah, and the one thing that for anybody, any other web designers who are thinking about a podcast is one of the things I found really good is the guest interviews I've had to date, I think all by one of them have been clients of mine. And it's really interesting cuz there's one, I think I bugged her for a testimonial a couple of times and it never came. And I knew she was happy with the website, but I sort of let it go and I invited her onto the podcast, oh my word.
[00:50:01] Marie: When, when we started talking about her website, she was just waxing lyrical. And I thought actually what I need to do is record this is separately, record this audio and put that on my website as a testimonial. And in fact I, what I will do is definitely take bits of it that she has said and put her as a, she's a great case study, but I've always, I haven't had her on the portfolio section of my website cause I never had a written testimonial to go with it.
[00:50:25] Marie: So. You know, actually this is really good for if anybody is thinking about working with you. Um, some of these interviews are, are fantastic for, you know, pushing people over the edge and, and, and triggering that decision.
[00:50:39] Josh: That's a great point. I've learned that with my show as well. When I have students on and they say like, Dude, your course helped me out with this and this and this, and now I'm doing this.
[00:50:48] Josh: I'm like that. That's the testimonial. That little clip right there, I'll 100% use that clip it. And you could always just ask them like, cuz they probably didn't even realize what they just said. I mean, it was probably way better and way genuine than, way more genuine than what they probably would've sent in cuz they may have overthought it and made it a little corporatey and, uh, you know, give you like three paragraphs that you can't use all that.
[00:51:10] Josh: So that's such a, such a great way to, to grab a testimonial on a nice little snippet and yeah, worst case scenario, you could just say, Hey, you actually said a really cool snippet. Can I use that as an official testimonial? And boom, there you go. Or I don't even need, need, I don't even know if you would technically need to 100% get permission for that.
[00:51:27] Josh: In some cases, since it's a live interview, it would just be like repurposing a, a snippet. So, um, yeah, I love that. What a great point. I'm glad you mentioned that because there's a lot of hidden gyms and a lot of hidden value and like a lot of different, uh, counterintuitive approaches to marketing that you can utilize your pa your podcast for and repurposing case study and testimonials. That's a big one. I love that idea. Yeah, I mean,
[00:51:52] Marie: the one thing which I don't do as much as I should do, but every now and again, I will do, and I, I've spent some time at the weekend actually, is just take an episode and repurpose it. So my podcast, there's a blog to go with almost every solo episode. And then, you know, that can turn into a really good carousel post on Instagram.
[00:52:12] Marie: And then I, you know, if I, I can go through and I can pull out some quotes from it as well and use days in, um, in Instagram and I could do, you know, a reel if it's, you know, three points, you know, you know what I've learned from podcasting, you know, I might do a quick reel on that. So there's loads of things that you can do to repurpose an episode of your podcast, not just an audio clip, which is what people kept telling me to do.
[00:52:37] Marie: Um, every time I did an audio clip, to be honest, it failed and I find them technically quite difficult to do, to find the right bit and clip it and, and, and put it in another MP3 file. Frankly, it's just easier to type it out in a post. It's much quicker. And often I would agree with that being much, much more fruitful.
[00:52:54] Josh: Yeah. I don't know how the audio clips go over as a whole. Uh, generally they do get less engagement, and I've seen this with like the people who are on top of the online entrepreneur. Wheel or whatever, uh, pyramid. I'm terrible at analogies right now, but even their posts, if they do like an audio clip, it generally doesn't get that much reaction.
[00:53:17] Josh: It is usually like a carousel post or something that would link to the whole episode. I do think the snippets are really powerful for interviews because they're so shareable and if you can condense a thought and see two people talking or one person talking, that generally goes a little better. Um, so I think that's where like I, I'm definitely my team right now is we're doing like, we'll take a snippet from this interview and that'll probably be the thing that will easiest for you to share cuz you can share a static image, but what will be even cooler is an image of like you sharing a quick thought about something and that will, that will really go over well versus just like a, an audio clip.
[00:53:55] Josh: So, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. It, like repurposing can be tricky on social media, but I think there's a lot of different strategies that work to, to. Even for the people who like meant to listen to an episode. I think it's a nice reminder that like, they were like, oh shoot. Yeah, I do wanna listen to that.
[00:54:11] Josh: Like, I, I've got your episode 47, 10 things I've learned about podcasting from almost 50 episodes. We'll link that in the show notes. I might forget about that. I'll very likely forget about that after this call. But if you were to share that on social media, I'd be like, oh, shoot. Yeah, I wanted to listen to that.
[00:54:27] Josh: Then I'll probably go check it out. So I think that's where it's, it's tough to track like conversions with podcasting, but um, I think as long as the strategy is there and you're, and you're seeing some strong numbers for, for whatever your goals are, I think, I think it's a good way to go. So it's interesting to hear your thoughts about your podcast as a whole.
[00:54:47] Josh: I mean, I would venture to say you've probably got more business from it than you might realize. It's not the first, like new clients, it's generally gonna be repeat and stronger relationships,
[00:54:57] Marie: and it's a long term game. You know, for most clients, the decision to buy a new website from somebody is not something they take in the spur of the moment.
[00:55:07] Marie: It's something they think about over time and you know, they, if they keep seeing you in different places and keep hearing different things, then ultimately they will make the leap at some point in the future. Um, You know, a lot of my clients, as I said, I've been doing this for nearly five years now, and a lot of my clients will say they've been following me for a couple of years before they actually become clients.
[00:55:31] Marie: And I think the podcast is very similar to that. It's something which, you know, it may not have paid off. Has it been worth the effort so far? Probably not. But will it be in the future? I very much hope so, and I expect so, so I'm not intending to give up anytime soon, but I do intend to do more guest episodes because they generally take less time saying generally they, they do take a lot less time than the solo episodes and, um, And also the other thing, which I'm very conscious I need to do is actually try and use my own podcast to guest on other people's podcasts, because again, that's another way of reaching a new audience.
[00:56:07] Marie: And I, I've, I'm terrible at doing that. I never, I never, um, sent out emails asking to guest on people's podcasts. In fact, you invited me on this one. It wasn't that I approached you. And, um, yeah, the other podcast I've been on, I've only been on a couple again, people have invited me on there. So, you know, what I can do is use the fact I've got my own podcast to get guest spots on other people's podcasts.
[00:56:28] Josh: Right. Do you have your to-do list out, Marie? This is the last thing I'll add on your to-do list, I promise. But from what we just covered, I think the top three things I would recommend for you that, oh, I'm so excited for you. I feel like you're, I mean, it's gonna, these are things that'll take some time over time, but I think it's gonna be amazing for you.
[00:56:45] Josh: Number one, repurposing your old episodes, like grouping them in categories, sending them out on social media and into current and new clients. I think that'll be a great way to get more listeners and getting people to re-listen to things or go back to your catalog cuz they'll get hooked. Uh, number two, 100% get guests on your podcast.
[00:57:04] Josh: Definitely try to do that more and more. And then, yeah, like you said, the third best thing is to get on people's podcasts. And I would venture to say a lot of your demographic I would imagine are probably hosting podcasts or maybe a percentage of them are considering it. Um, What a great way. Like if you have a client that has a podcast and you design a website, I would definitely mention that I would have them on your show and then see about getting on their show because they, they will likely know a lot of other people who hear you and they hear you talk about your,
[00:57:39] Josh: their website and your tips and everything, and then they're suddenly gonna be interested and they just spent maybe 45 minutes or an hour with Marie and they're like, they're already sold. They, you just need to get 'em through the door. So I think all those strategies combined could really completely revolutionize the, or not even revolutionize it, but I think that will just like close the gaps that the podcast might be missing for you right now. That with your Instagram. My gosh, it's gonna be wild.
[00:58:06] Josh: Marie . I, I feel like, you know, I just, I don't know. I, I like, I'm seeing this in my mind right now, how that could all come together and yeah, it's gonna take more work, but it's not like you need to recreate anything or redo anything. Um, it's just a matter of kind of tightening up what you have in place and just adding a little more.
[00:58:22] Josh: Little more icing to the cake, I guess, if we're, we're getting close to lunchtime over here. So, you know, something like that. I feel like that'll work out pretty well. We're
[00:58:28] Marie: about high tea time over here in the uk, and ours and, uh, and, and cakes. No, but actually it's interesting what you said about guessing on podcast because the very first, um, podcast I guessed on at the end of the conversation, the, the host said, you know, I think you've just convinced me to that I need you to build me a new website.
[00:58:52] Marie: she became a client at the end of the podcast interview, or not quite at the end of the podcast interview, but we set up a time to actually, um, have that call to, to talk about a new website for her. So, um, it's quite funny that it wasn't just a case of I don't know that I got any business. Her, her client base is product based, so it wasn't so much that her clients would necessarily, or or listeners to the podcast would become clients, but she became a client of mine.
[00:59:17] Marie: So, um, yeah, that's, it's quite funny that, uh, you know, that that's happened. Yes, I, but I have other things on my do list as well, because at the moment I actually, I'm trying to resource out my maintenance plan. So I've been, you were in my earbuds last night, um, as I was going through your maintenance plan course as well. So, uh, yeah, lots of great tip bits in that
[00:59:37] Josh: Oh, yes, yes. Get that recurring. I, I wasn't sure where your maintenance plan was at right now. Is that something you've been offering or, uh, yeah. Are you just refining it?
[00:59:47] Marie: Yeah, so I've offered it from the get go and, um, so that's been nearly five years and so it's been building up, which has been fantastic, but I've only ever really had one level to it, so, And I have one client who wanted something completely different, so there's a special level for her.
[01:00:08] Marie: But what I'm gonna do now is I'm actually gonna add on another further two levels. And I'm also trying to systematize more and more of my business. So one of the things I've been looking at with that is actually even I've, I've moved payments onto direct debits and I need to do, just do more of that and get the signups a little bit more automatic and the invoicing a little bit more automatic.
[01:00:29] Marie: So I was looking at what I should have in my packages, how I should sell 'em, having a separate page that's all about my maintenance plan. And. Then I can send that to clients. And there's a couple of clients I think probably could move up from my most basic package standard as I've called it. Um, premium being the middle one.
[01:00:48] Marie: And then, um, I actually called the top tier V ip, but um, so I know there's a section all about what you name your, um, your maintenance, yeah, yeah. Plans. Uh, so, uh, yeah, I think, I'm not sure I'll sell VIPs, but, uh, certainly moving a few clients up to, up to the premium package,
[01:01:06] Josh: um, should be done. That's great.
[01:01:08] Josh: Yeah. That was actually one of my favorite lessons in the maintenance plan course was the naming of, cuz I, I forget how many examples I showed in there, but there's so many options and so many ways you can name your tiers. Standard premium and v i p I think those are great. Those are really great cuz.
[01:01:25] Josh: I'm kind of torn. Sometimes I like to use starter, but then it's like if there's an established business that doesn't need that much for a maintenance plan as far as ongoing work, they're past starter. So I think standard or some sort of, yeah, like basic type of verbiage is great. So yeah, what you're doing there is awesome.
[01:01:40] Josh: Marie, I, I just love what you've done with your business cuz you're at a place now where there's so many things going well. I feel like now it's just a matter of like tightening some things up and adding those systems and just getting a little more tactile maybe on the marketing. I mean Instagram, I'm learning from you.
[01:01:56] Josh: I don't have any more recommendations I could think of with Instagram. You're killing it with that. I'm definitely impressed with what you have going on, on your branding there with Beyond the Kitchen. And then, yeah, the podcast. I think those few things we talked about could be really, really beneficial if, if anything, for web designers apart from strengthening your relationship with current clients and building authority and trust, the real benefit as a web, as a web designer podcast is the opportunity to get on like business podcasts and share a website knowledge
[01:02:29] Josh: because you are gonna talk to small business owners, and if you are a guest, again, just remember they're not going to search like web design tips, but if they're listening to a business podcast about how to grow, I don't know, a landscape business or something, and this web designer comes on and you talk about all your tips for conversions and SEO and what's worked for clients, they're suddenly gonna be like, I want to talk to this guy.
[01:02:51] Josh: What was that episode? And they'll find ya. So what a great marketing channel. That's still quite untapped right now for most like service businesses. I think people who have podcasts understand the power of being a guest on a show. I know I have. Yeah. I used to think, I didn't really understand that until a lot of my students that have came through over the past couple years were like, yeah, I heard John like Pat Flynn's podcast, or West McDowell's podcast, or Shannon Madden's podcast, or whatever it is.
[01:03:18] Josh: And then you're like, oh shoot. Yeah. They're like, a lot of them end up going through my bundle, which is currently my, my top tier product. And they're like, yeah, I heard John that and I wanted to get going. I'm like, wow, that's amazing. I just, you know, talked with a friend for an hour and then boom, that brought like a couple bundle students.
[01:03:34] Josh: So I, I just say that to say like that shows how powerful those, those guest interviews are. So yeah, I couldn't recommend that enough and I think it'll, gosh, you'll kill it. Marie, you're, you've been such a great. Interviewee on this show, so I know you're just gonna kill it. Getting out there and talking to your market and sharing your, your advice on, on, you know, what's working with websites. Ah, that's super exciting.
[01:03:55] Marie: Thanks. And actually there's, there's something else I'm doing on marketing, which, um, I don't know any other website designers who are doing this and it's so far, it's very early days, but it's working quite well, which is, um, having a low cost way of working with you. So I've actually set up a membership for people and it's to help them with their marketing rather than anything to do with websites.
[01:04:19] Marie: So, um, we have just covered SEO actually, but it's also in these things like Instagram and it's just the general principles of making sure that you are talking to your target audience and it's a very low cost way of working with. and I've got less than 20 clients, uh, in there, less than 20 members in there all paying.
[01:04:37] Marie: Um, and I've got two clients out of it already, so probably more than half of those that are in that membership are already clients. And it's great because when I get them to introduce themselves, when new people join, they always say, oh, and Marie rebuilt my website. So, you know, they're promoting my website services, people who are coming in, who website I haven't built and who are looking for a new website.
[01:05:01] Marie: They are, you know, they're finding out a little bit about me and the way I work. And so, as I say, I've actually had two clients just in a couple of months, um, from that. So because I recognize to my target audience, It's a significant investment buying a new website. Yeah. And they wanna make sure they're making the right decision.
[01:05:19] Marie: So it's a different way of, of, obviously I've gotta market that membership as well. But, you know, it's a, it's a much easier decision to say, okay, I'm happily paid 29 pounds a month, so, you know, whatever, $35 and, um, you know, that's much easier decision than actually, you know, a couple of thousand dollars for, for a new website.
[01:05:39] Josh: So it's, from what I gather that is getting into like, the marketing side of things. Right. So you're, yeah. You're talking about once you have a website, what do you do? Like how do, how do we build this thing? How do we make sure this investment, you know, keeps an ROI going over and over? I, this is wonderful because, You're, you run the risk of being like a digital marketing, like full service agency, which I don't, doesn't seem like you probably wanna become where you're doing everything.
[01:06:08] Josh: No, I don't. You
[01:06:09] Marie: can, but I'm happy to teach people how to do those other bits. I have no desire to do, for example, even seo and I've no desire to do people's social media, but actually if I can show them how to do it themselves, then that helps them. Um, either if, if they've got a website, it helps them, or some of these people who are joining, they are really just starting out in business and they don't have a clue where to start.
[01:06:33] Marie: So, you know, it's getting them to think about who it is that they want to serve and, and the best ways of reaching them and, you know, yeah. A website is not necessarily the very first step. It might, it might be others.
[01:06:43] Josh: I love that you're doing that because that is the missing piece that most web designers kind of find out is you build a website and then awesome. But then your client is inevitably gonna wanna know like, What do we do after this? Uh, yeah, and I understand this comes with time. Like I don't, most people are not gonna start as a web designer and gonna be able to do all the things and train their clients like it will happen over time. But I think five years into it, you're in a, you're in an interesting place in your career where, like, like I said earlier, your foundation is so strong.
[01:07:15] Josh: You know, your target demographic, you are, you, you know where your marketing is and, and, and where it should be, where it's going. Empowering your clients ongoing, moving forward, that seems to be like the missing piece that you're, you're capitalizing on, which is great cuz yeah, you are getting all the marketing questions and I'm sure a lot of the folks who come to you want their website and then they wanna use their website. Yeah. So I think that's a really great way to go. And now, so that's a membership. You, you have courses on your website, is that something that's in there or courses something different?
[01:07:44] Marie: Yeah, so I, the courses that I've got on my, me on my website and I intend to do proper courses, these are master classes. Um, I ran live and then the recordings that people can buy. So they are fastest courses. I sell very few of them, to be honest, partly because I don't really promote them. So when they were delivered live, I sold, you know, quite a lot of them. So, you know, they were inexpensive. There was one, for example, on blogging, there was one on seo and these were 90 minute sessions and Gotcha.
[01:08:15] Marie: So they sold really well and they also sold to people who said, I can't make it, but is there going to be a recording? And so they bought before the event, but since the event, they haven't sold so well. So it's very similar content, but it's just delivered in a membership instead of being on a, on an individual.
[01:08:32] Marie: Um, I was
[01:08:33] Josh: just go, yeah, I was just gonna ask, are those a part of the membership? Are they like bonuses that people could get sign?
[01:08:38] Marie: They're not. Um, but I'm using effectively the same material.
[01:08:42] Josh: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, cuz that's, that's what I would envision is like, as you do those type of trainings, is you could 100% just take the recording and just their bonuses. Like when you join the membership, you also get the, all these trainings that are normally 39 bucks or 99 bucks or whatever they're gonna be, and then they just, it's included in your membership that that could be a great way to go and you wouldn't need to necessarily rerecord 'em, uh, cuz yeah, you could buy it one off or join your membership and get access to those.
[01:09:09] Marie: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there's some of the trainings that I've delivered in the membership that I could easily repurpose and sell separately. So, you know, and that's what I did with these master classes that they, they were just, they were the original recordings, so I didn't rerecord them, but, you know, probably doing something slightly longer on some of these, um, and selling them as standalone and promoting them as standalone.
[01:09:31] Marie: I think, as I said before, one of the issues that a lot of people have is making that leap to suddenly spending a lot of money with you. So if you can make it a, a lower risk initial investment, you know, that really helps them.
[01:09:44] Josh: I love that you're doing that because Yeah, for, for, you know, 29, oh yeah. Around 30 something range for us. That is a minimal investment where they could at least get some training that's a little like, you know, they're somewhat invested. They, even if it is a very cheap thing or if it is a, is a less afford or more affordable type of situation, if somebody buys something, it is way different than a free training.
[01:10:09] Josh: Like that's why like a lot of top influencers and marketers will do like a $7 product or a $37 product. I've all, I've heard them say for years, even if you get somebody to pay you seven bucks, they're gonna be 100% more invested than somebody who just signs up for free. Yeah. And even it's seven bucks.
[01:10:24] Josh: It's like two cups of coffee. At Starbucks or maybe one, one at Starbucks. you, you know, you get like, you know what I mean? Like it just add, there's just something about any sort of investment that will make a better client. So I think that's, it's a really smart business move. I'm very excited to see how that works out.
[01:10:38] Josh: We'll have to do another episode maybe next year and kind of look at the, the membership and see how the lessons you've learned from it. Because it is a very interesting approach to like getting people through the door, like you said, a low cost type of thing, building some trust and authority, and your sales force is there, like your previous clients are gonna sell you and they're like, man, these four master classes that Marie put out are awesome. Yeah, let's do this like $3,000 website. Whatever it is, let's go. I love that it's.
[01:11:08] Marie: Yeah, I'm try, you know, it's, it's always good to try different things and if it doesn't work, you can easily just pull back on it, so. Mm-hmm. , it's always, it's always, my brain is always worrying with, you know, what, what new ideas. I just need a little bit more time. .
[01:11:21] Josh: Yeah. No, I think it's cool though. It seems, it seems like a good fit. It's, there's no red flags for me that would be like, ooh, I don't know if I would go about that. Cause you're also building community in with this and I, I mean, it all just works together. Be, it's also different because your clients are so like-minded and aligned probably with, with their business mindset.
[01:11:40] Josh: Like maybe there's different industries, but I imagine they're very similar in a lot of ways. So like for my clients, I don't know of a community would've worked out terribly well with like a barber and then a steel company, and surgeon like I, I all, you know what I mean? Like they're probably not gonna be online together, but if you're getting entrepreneurs who are very similar and like-minded, it could be that could be very, very powerful. And as long as you're training them over and over. Yeah. That's super cool. No, this, I'm very excited to hear more about that.
[01:12:08] Marie: There's some good connections, but presumably for you, there's a lot of crossover between your courses and your membership in that one feeds the other and presumably vice versa. Some people will join the me first and others will join the courses
[01:12:21] Josh: first. Yeah, it's very different for me now. I was kind of saying that as a web designer, like for most web designers, if you have, if you're generalists, it's kind of tough to foster a community of different clients who are in different industries.
[01:12:35] Josh: But yeah, you're totally right with what I do now. It's the reason why I started my membership is because I felt like, I was like, I gotta get these people together. And you know, even though there's a lot of. People in different places and where they're out in their journeys now, there's like subgroups of people who are very like-minded and on track with each other.
[01:12:52] Josh: And it's been incredible. Like, yeah, it's, it's a hundred percent feeds together when you have a course and a, and a membership and an ongoing type of thing. There's a lot of different ways to go about it. So I love, that's kind of, that's kind of where you're headed. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then yeah, you're, I mean, that's the really cool thing about potentially too, like, you'll probably attract podcasts guests through that.
[01:13:12] Josh: You, you'll be able to do case studies. You'll probably able to utilize that in your podcast and in your Instagram and your other marketing. So, oh, I intend ca you intend to. Lovely. I I have one, uh, quick question too before we wrap this up. Marie, how are you on time, by the way? I know we've gone over an hour.
[01:13:27] Josh: Are you alright? Yeah, I'm fine. Well, Marie, sorry about that. Welcome back. We had a little, little issue. I just, I lost you there for a second, but by golly we're back. I don't know how long you were talking to yourself, but you were just telling me. How you plan for like a day of the week that you're gonna do your content.
[01:13:42] Josh: And then inevitably, that always ends up changing, which seems very common. I of course don't know anything about that, but, um, sounds very common. So, yeah, I was just kind of curious like how are you balancing marketing and content creation with fulfillment? Like, how are you having time to do your projects during all this?
[01:13:59] Josh: Yeah, and,
[01:13:59] Marie: and it's hard. It, it is one of the hardest things, and particularly with the podcast. If it wasn't for the podcast and the blog, then it would be very easy to just slot it in. But the podcast does take me longer than it should do, which is one of the reasons I want to bring on more guest interviews, um, to try and cut down that time.
[01:14:18] Marie: So, you know, often I'm recording on a Sunday afternoon, ready to go out on a Monday morning and, Yeah, the balance isn't quite right at the moment, but I need to, um, yeah, I need to work on that and saying that I'm still managing to fulfill everything for clients. And actually I've started outsourcing, um, a little bit more of that kind of work and, um, and, and, but the marketing for a while I had somebody helping me with it and I've gone back to doing it myself and at some point I'll probably outsource some of that as well.
[01:14:49] Josh: Uh, what about your podcast? Have you considered outsourcing, editing, and publishing and distribution and all that?
[01:14:56] Marie: Um, I have considered it and I do it all myself and, but I don't actually find, it takes me that long because, well, there were two reasons I don't outsource it. One is when I actually record it on a Sunday afternoon, it's a little bit unfair to ask somebody to do it on a Sunday evening to go out Monday morning.
[01:15:12] Marie: So it would only work if I was more organized. But secondly, it's, I don't find, it takes me very long, so I like you. I only lightly edit my podcasts, so, um, and I possibly edit the guest episodes, actually, funny enough, a little bit more. But yeah, it doesn't take me very long to, um, to put it through. I use the script as a podcast editor and I just put it through there and yeah, it's, it doesn't take me very long.
[01:15:41] Josh: Yeah. I feel like, uh, you said it, you gotta get like yourself on schedule and organ at least two weeks ahead before, uh, before bringing somebody on. Uh, but I, I, I do, I, I would venture to say it probably adds up in time more than you think, depending on how much post production and, and distribution, like doing the post on the website, linking everything, putting it on social.
[01:16:02] Josh: I wonder if at some point here you'll, you might wanna get to a point where you're like, okay, maybe I'll get this off. At least try it out to see how much time you'll save once you, once you figure out what you wanna focus on. But there's nothing wrong with getting your systems in place yourself, and then you, then you can replicate it.
[01:16:16] Marie: But I use, I use Captivate as my podcast host and I've got a plugin on my website and so it automatically publishes to my website. Nice. And they automatically distribute it, obviously, to the various different platforms. So actually it's only uploading it to Captivate that I do captive.
[01:16:32] Josh: Do so. Oh, I see that in your url. I see. So, okay. So I was actually wondering why I said Captivate in there when I looked at one of your episodes.
[01:16:41] Marie: Yeah. Interesting. No, that's, that's why that's, that's who I use. So, um, yeah. Very ha. Been very happy
[01:16:46] Josh: using them. Yeah. That's awesome, Marie. Well what a conversation I had so much fun. Diving into a little bit of your story and learning how you grew your business.
[01:16:55] Josh: I love hearing the marketing efforts that you had in the beginning that kind of worked. And then just again, the common theme here that I saw was that you are so vigilant with seeing where your clientele is and where they're going, where they're spending time, and to go to them and to serve them well.
[01:17:10] Josh: So you capitalize on Instagram. We talked about your strategy there, the big three. I love sales, education, connection. Absolutely love that. And then obviously, hearing about how your podcast is implemented, I, I hope that anyone who's interested in a podcast takes a lot from this and Instagram for that matter, with how to like apply this to your own business and gives you some confidence.
[01:17:31] Josh: Cuz there's nothing worse than just. Fumbling through and trying to figure out what you want to do. When you have an action plan and you see what's working for somebody, it's so beneficial. So I'm so glad we covered a lot of that. Really exciting to hear about your membership too, the community you're building with that low tier offer that's gonna Yeah, work really well in conjunction with your other services.
[01:17:51] Josh: It's awesome. I have one final question for you, Marie, but uh, where would you like people to go to, to check you out? You, you have your website, you have your podcast, which your podcast is the web design, the website coach, is that right? Yeah, that's
[01:18:04] Marie: right. Yeah. So it's a different brand name to my business. Um, so my business is beyond the kitchen table, so my website is beyond the kitchen table.code.uk. And the website, the podcast is the website coach and that's on all of the major podcast players. And, um, on Instagram I am at Beyond the kt. Sadly, I couldn't get beyond the kitchen table, so it's the shortened version of that on
[01:18:30] Josh: Instagram.
[01:18:31] Josh: And we'll link all that. Yeah, I was kind of wondering, I can't help but think. I wonder if, I wonder if you branched out into more like. Website marketing or online marketing. I know it's a, it's a, you know, very, it's a really competitive space, but at the same time, you wouldn't really need to compete. I wonder if like more online marketing would, would suit up your podcast eventually.
[01:18:52] Josh: I know you would just, you were going back and forth on names. I wonder if like, Because I know you're interested in a lot more of the marketing aspects. I wonder if at some point maybe branching that out into just online marketing, your website or something. And I thought
[01:19:04] Marie: about that. Yeah. Um, and the reason I didn't was just, it's too competitive and I didn't think I'd get found at all, whereas I had a chance of being found with website in my name. Yeah. So it is a marketing podcast rather than a marketing podcast, which focuses more heavily on websites than other forms of marketing. But at the end of the day, it is a marketing and running a small business podcast. Um, but yeah, just marketing is just so competitive. There's no way I'd ever get found and if anybody searched for marketing,
[01:19:33] Josh: but at the same time, I can't help but feel like it's kind of the same now.
[01:19:37] Josh: I mean, I would imagine if somebody's searching your podcast, you're probably getting a lot of website DIYers. Maybe those could turn into clients. You might also be getting web designers, um, which is not your, not your clientele at all. So, um, Yeah, I, I feel so bad. I'm just adding to your to-do list and giving you thoughts.
[01:19:55] Josh: That's probably gonna keep you up at night thinking like, oh, maybe that'll work, but I can't help but thinking like, marketing your website with Marie Brown or something like that. I don't know, maybe version two of, of the podcast could branch into the marketing realm. I just feel like, I feel like it needs you.
[01:20:10] Josh: I feel like you have so much to offer with what you've learned already with your social media journey and your marketing endeavors. That, my gosh, it's definitely past just website help. I mean, you are truly in the marketing, online marketing game over, over, you know, websites are a big part of it, but, um, there, yeah, I don't know. I can't help but think maybe a, maybe a version, maybe 2.0 or the podcast could, could be something like that, could be cool. I, I
[01:20:33] Marie: don't think, I mean, I don't tend to change my business name, but I don't think the podcast will stay called that. You know, long term at some point the name will I'm sure will change.
[01:20:43] Marie: But
[01:20:43] Josh: yeah, that's kinda where I'm, yeah. Yeah.
[01:20:45] Marie: I don't have the name that Absolutely love in some ways. You know, one of the issues was whether I should follow my business name and call it Beyond the Kitchen table, but I already find a bit of an SEO issue of people searching for Kitchen Tables website. So yeah, I wanted something that actually said what it was in, in the title of the
[01:21:07] Josh: podcast.
[01:21:07] Josh: Yeah. Cause I'm sure you could attract like, you know, people. Cooking meals or something, or you know, probably a lot, a lot of that demographic where, where there's some sort of something with like home, home decor or something like that. Uh, you'd
[01:21:20] Marie: be amazed the emails I get about people asking for, if they can put recipes on my website. I love website, an amazing business, and I've got lots of nutrition information and recipes. Please, can I put it on your website? And it's like, you've clearly not looked at
[01:21:33] Josh: my website. Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to get outta my head. The recipe stuff. Yeah. Uh, well either way, another good lesson is what you're, you're doing is working like, it's much more important that your services are great, that you are serving your clients and that's gonna attract the, the right people.
[01:21:51] Josh: So, so many good things in this chat, Marie. Um, if you could give somebody one person advice that is maybe in like year one or two and they see your strong social media, they see your strong. Customer pipeline, what you're doing, what would you tell them if they're trying to figure out where they should focus?
[01:22:09] Josh: Or maybe even, what would you tell yourself five years ago? Like where, what would you tell somebody who's early on and they're just trying to figure out where do I put my marketing efforts?
[01:22:17] Marie: Yeah. So I think there are a couple of things. First of all, the most important thing you can do is take action. Um, and that's, you know, things like the podcast.
[01:22:25] Marie: It's not the perfect name, but the podcast is there and it's happening. And if I waited until I got a name that I was a hundred percent happy with, I still wouldn't have published it. So, um, taking action is much more important than thinking about stuff. And then it's a case of listening, actually, it's probably the most underrated skill that you can have is listening to what other people, what your, what your target audience is saying. Um, and then responding to that and putting things out that will appeal to them because you've, you've listened to what they say.
[01:22:57] Josh: How well said, Marie, I'm so excited you came on today. I'm so excited you were open to, to share about what you've learned and what's worked well and man, I just, I really, really enjoyed this.
[01:23:09] Josh: I think everyone's gonna get so much outta this conversation and it's so cool seeing what you like the, the results of all of your hard labor over the last five years. So gosh, what a great ending point. Thank you for your time, Marie. So much fun. I can't wait to see what the next five years looks like cause you are on an incredible trajectory.
[01:23:25] Josh: So are you gonna invite me onto your podcast after this now? Yeah,
[01:23:29] Marie: a absolutely. But you're gonna have to talk to my target audience, Josh, you know.
[01:23:33] Josh: I, I will do, I will do my best. I can talk website tips or, uh, yeah, we could, I'm sure, I'm sure I could come up with something. Maybe we, yeah, we could talk about all sort of topics. I'll, I'll try to, I'll try to access that side of, of my personality for you, . No,
[01:23:48] Marie: that would be, that would be great. Definitely. And thank you so much for having me on. I've, uh, I've really enjoyed our chat.
[01:23:53] Josh: Same here. Thanks, Bree. Looking forward to talking soon.
[01:23:55] Marie: Thanks.