Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Danielle Cobo: At work, change is inevitable, but that doesn't mean that it's always easy to embrace. In this episode, we are discussing how to manage change at work and how to make the most of opportunities that change can bring. We'll also talk about some of the most common challenges that come with change and how to overcome them.
Today's guest is Rita Ernst, founder of Ignite Your Extraordinary, an organizational consulting practice emphasizing the convergence of happiness and productivity to create positive, committed, high performing organiz. She holds an advanced degree in organizational psychology from Clemson University, and her book show UP Positive was released on June 14th, 2022.
Well, thank you for joining us today. Tell us a little bit about your
Rita Ernst: career journey. first of all, I just wanna say thank you for inviting me, Danielle, and sharing me with your audience. I'm very excited about our conversation today to meet somebody else that is as passionate about change and helping people navigate through that is a beautiful thing.
So thank you for the invitation. I, I have a background in organizational psychology, Psychology is really the place from which I view the world. And organizational psychology is simply the study of how people come together in the workplace to make work happen. It's just that simple. There's social psychology in there.
There's motivation theory, there's leadership and learning theory, and all of those things that are encompassed in my professional expertise. this has been my whole. I went to school specifically, I knew I wanted to be an organizational psychologist. I finished my masters and started working in corporate.
I spent about, I don't know, 15, 16 years in corporate, working in Fortune 200 companies as an internal consultant. And then I left my corporate life. It was supposed to be temporary and then it sort of just became permanent. I have no regrets. I love being my own business owner and working with the clients that I choose, whose projects I share passion with.
And extraordinary is in the name of my business, but we do extraordinary things together because we are just so aligned and lovely to be able to select for that, have that freedom as being a business owner. It's nice to be
Danielle Cobo: able to choose the companies that you work with and ensuring that they're aligned with your core values and embrace some of the steps to implement.
To take that organization to the next level because there's some organizations that kind of get stuck in their silo and are a bit resistant. But the companies that really embrace training and development, it's so excited to see when change is made and you get to see that positive outcome as
Rita Ernst: a result.
Yes, I 100% agree. And know, I don't work with every client that comes to my door sometimes people are just not really ready but I say jokingly, but it's actually also psychologically the truth. The name of my business is Ignite Your Extraordinary. So you can't have testimonials and reviews that are like, oh, you know, it was pretty good.
she was a nice lady. I you need people to be saying like, this was transformational. This was a huge impact for us. I really do have to pay attention to that readiness piece and, make sure that I'm not setting up that business owner or myself and I've got a pretty good batting average on that.
Danielle Cobo: you said the word transformation and I think about all the trainings that I was exposed to throughout my career, and I was very fortunate working for a Fortune 500 company where the level of training was extraordinary and what I always found as the most valuable, when you say about transformation.
The ability to learn something and have it transform in all areas of your life, both professionally and personally. And that's my favorite content that I like to deliver, which I'm sure you do as well, where you get to see that 360 approach of teaching somebody something new and to seeing it just applied in all areas of their life.
Rita Ernst: A Absolutely. I released a book in June of this year. It's called Show Up Positive, and it is based on my experience working with essential workers during the pandemic and then what follows on. But basically all the disc. Content and disconnection that happened for us in our lives bled right into the workplace because we are whole humans.
We can't segment those things out. and people just develop these negative patterns that are really, really difficult to break. And I just happen to have the secret sauce about how you can, bring an organization together and break through some of that, uh, negativity and get things.
Pivoted back in the right place but it is lovely when I'm talking with people about the book and they are talking about how they use it with their children or other relationships or they see, I didn't set out to write an all-encompassing self-help book, but it is nice as you point out when those lessons really do transfer to a lot of parts of our lives.
Danielle Cobo: we talk about organizational change and there's a lot of changes within an organization at any time. I know that my first couple years, I think it was my first two years as a manager, and it was a first time manager. We went through downsizing, change in leadership, organizational restructuring, and we also had an attempted hostile takeover from a competitor company
it made world news because if that takeover would've happened, it would've created a monopoly within the industry. And there was laws that prohibited that from happening. But you talk about anything that a manager could go through and change happening within the first two years.
So let's kind of talk about when an organization goes through change. What are the most common challenge? There
Rita Ernst: are three that I see over and over and over again. you're talking about a deluge of change, which is its own sort of challenge. know, there is an upside to that too, which I think we'll talk about later, but let's just talk about the three most common challenges I see.
The first one is the positioning of change for the receiv. we don't tend to have a lot of difficulty with change when we're in the driver's. We make big life decision changes, to move cities or states or jobs or whatever it might be, add children out, spouse. Those are big life changes and we tend to navigate those with a lot more ease.
Not that they're always this simple, but with more ease. How? However, when change feels like it's foisted upon, have a different response. so I think that's the first, is that perspective and positioning. A lot of times companies make the mistake of talking at people as if they're doing change to them and they're looking for compliance.
With the change, instead of recognizing that this is happening to people and that you want their commitment and that you need to talk with them as collaborators in the change, not just the receiver of a done decision. So I think that's one. I think the second most common thing that I see is that even if the change really truly makes sense,
you are in the process of making all of those decisions about change, It's over time a series of decisions that you are making, but when you announce it in a corporation, it's this end result point in time that is way far removed from where you started. so the failure to transmit that journey and take people along the way with you, so people wait too long instead of.
Creating this pathway that could be a shared journey. We get to this end result and we make this major announcement and we forget that everybody else is 6, 8, 9 months, sometimes more behind us and but yet we expect them to just speed up and be right there with us in the moment, which is really not how most function.
And then the third thing I would say is that we tend. Respond from a place of fear when it comes to disagreement around change. we're not trusting of our relationships and our ability to navigate disagreement and allow that to be managed in a way that would be constructive to really getting that commitment that we need.
When you talk
Danielle Cobo: about. the little decisions that happen that end up creating sometimes these big decisions. When I think back at the managers that I've had and the ones that have navigated through change, and I have seen organizations embrace it versus the one where there's been a lot of resistance, I've noticed the key differentiator is transparency.
Some leaders hold things to the vest and it almost comes across as a dictatorship in saying, this is what we're doing. But when they're transparent and talking about the process along the way, and maybe you don't even have the answers specifically, it could be, we're going through X, Y, Z changes.
This is why we're considering it, and maybe getting them part of your team, part of that conversation. Leadership does not happen. Just at the top. Leadership happens in every single level. when you get that team combining and making decisions, collectively, that's when you get to take that translation of the vision and taking that organization to that next level.
But I agree with you a hundred percent where transparency is key and transparency throughout some of the changes and sharing the why behind it too. A lot of times. Companies go through downsizing and it can feel as though from an employee's perspective that we're not as valued, but sometimes those decisions need to be made in order to retain the employees that they do have.
They're kind of tough decisions that need to be made sometimes in order to keep the organization moving towards the right direction, but they forget to put the.
Rita Ernst: I, I agree. I think the why is huge. Again, sharing why in that transparency. That's definitely inviting people to share commitment with you versus just to swallow it and accept it.
and the other thing I would affirm that you're saying that I really want your listeners to key into is one of the things that we know, From my study, my expertise in organizational psychology is the people closest to the work have the most knowledge and information that you need to access. And when you don't include those people, you can be missing a really rich and robust amount of knowledge that you need to make the best decisions.
And it's almost Daniel disrespectful, in my opinion, To not trust the people in your organization enough to really allow them to bring that and share that information with you and
Danielle Cobo: taking that into the personal life. I'm so glad that you talked about getting everyone involved. Would you imagine as a family making a life decision to move to another state without involving your kids?
I can't imagine. Not involving my kids and having part of those conversations cuz we're all gonna be affected by it. And the same goes into an organization and the people that are closest. To the customers are gonna be able to provide feedback in saying, this is how the customers might perceive this change.
This might be some of the challenges that we get to talk through so that when we do this makes it XYZ change, we can be forward thinking and providing resources or language around how to have those difficult conversations with our customer.
Rita Ernst: Yes. mean, I think that is a, the perfect example of somebody who's really close to an important stakeholder, That in good change management, you have the landscape mapped of who the stakeholders are. And you're being very thoughtful and mindful about how you were engaging at each stage along the way. But, it's been quite a while since I've been inside of a large corporation running change management.
But I can say that 20 years ago when I was doing that, it, it was always, This little incubator over here and conversation only with the top of leadership and then a decision. And then there was the rollout. I mean, as soon as you are using the words rollout, You are probably on the wrong path.
just keep that in your, head. That's
Danielle Cobo: a good perspective. Yeah. Anytime you're in that rollout conversation, that's a really good perspective to share and a good reminder. let's think about as individuals, if we're going through change in the workplace, might we adapt and what advice do you give for us adapting to change in the workplace so we can be in a position we're not only adapting, but more or less embracing some of the change.
Rita Ernst: what I recommend to. Individuals and to work groups is conversation. And you can start that conversation with yourself. You can journal, you can talk out loud with a friend, but are, here are like some of the questions and content buckets that I would recommend that you use to really gain clarity about where your resistance resides with a.
Because if you're all in, a no brainer, Things are fine, but if you're feeling resistant somewhere. start with just asking yourself, what do you disagree with? are you disagreeing with the, what is going to get done? what's the outcome? Are you disagreeing with the how? I, um, actually just recently went through a medical issue with my father and I had this epiphany of, I got the, what I wanted, but not in the how that I wanted for him.
I was sort of poo-pooing and disappointed and a little resistant to, be happy as I should have been until one of my friends was like, oh, that's wonderful. There was a pharmaceutical solution that's gonna work for him. And I was like, yeah, I didn't want him to be on all this. Medication, but at the same time, yay, there is medication that can fix this problem.
sometimes it's, I got what I wanted, I got my data out of the hospital. I wanted a different how to the resolution. where are you struggling with that? And some deeper questions that can help you With that is asking yourself, what does this change mean to. a, at a personal level, how is this gonna impact me and what does that mean for me from my job?
What's coming up for me about what meaning does this hold? And, also asking yourself really truthful, hard questions about is keeping things the way they are right now. Really the best answer. What are the problems with the ways things are now? What would be worth fixing and what there is now? can you get yourself in a place where you can imagine change?
Being a valuable thing. And I think the next bucket is sort of about, getting clear about your resistance. Right? What's my no, about, what am I really feeling I'm saying no to, because oftentimes it's one little thing. I wasn't saying no to my dad getting released from the hospital and being able to resume life.
I was saying no to him having to take 13 pills a. Um, but, you sometimes that's, best answer. asking yourself, here's a really gentle question to ask. What am I not ready to say yes to? So I've just heard the whole change, kitten caboodle delivered at me. what is it that was said that I'm not ready to say yes to?
See if you can really zero in on where that resistance is. or again, in that conversation about why is this mattering to me so much. I asked myself, why does it matter to me so much that my dad is on medication? it was because of some lifestyle impacts that those medications would have that I was feeling really resistant to.
But it was helpful to get clarity about that.
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and the other big question in your know, is what am I fear? What am I gonna lose? What's being taken away from me? What's my big fear? That's got me saying no. And when you start to really reflect and think about those things, and sometimes you need to talk out loud or you need to journal to slow your mind down a little bit and get clarity, it will help you understand that you it's really, most of the time our resistance is on a very micro level.
It's smaller things, not the larger change that we're really resisting, but it all. Emotionally entangled and we can't separate it out. when you separate it out, it's a lot better. And so the final question in this grouping would be, what does yes mean? if I were going to say yes, what would have to be true about this change to make me really wanna support it?
Or, who do I need to have a conversation with or what conversation needs to be had for me to feel really good about moving forward? And once you begin, think and process these questions, I think you can find a pretty clear and streamlined path to getting out of your struggle and back into a place where you feel like you have a little more control.
Because one of the things about having change done to us that really kicks us is we don't like to be outside of our own control. once you can find your own little control thermostat, again, things tend to get a little.
Danielle Cobo: What I'm hearing you say is really digging deep and asking some deep questions to create the self-awareness around why we're feeling the way that we are.
If we're in a resistance, whether we're in an embrace state, and understanding where that resistant might be coming from. So then we can discover. What that next step is into getting into moving forward, and it sounds like really getting clarity around the resistance.
Rita Ernst: Absolutely. That was a beautiful summary of all of that long explanation that I gave Danielle
Well, you did like carry you on my . You
Danielle Cobo: provided some really good questions. and, and I think that's gonna be extremely helpful for. Whenever we go through some sort of change, whether personal or professional, is those questions that you provided for us is writing them down, and then through that process, that's when we're able to discover what those emotions are, having the self-awareness around it and getting clarity on what that next step would look like.
Rita Ernst: I know you feel the same way, but I think it's really important to say to your listeners, Danielle, whatever you're feeling about change is valid. It is valid to feel what you feel. we're not trying to invalidate your feelings or trying to stop feeling.
it's what you said. It's really recognizing why am I feeling this way and if I don't wanna feel this way. What would need to be different?
Danielle Cobo: Mm-hmm. So what are some ways that we can make the most of opportunities when changes occur? Because there are some pivotal moments in our career and then this might be one of 'em, when change is happening in our workplace, this could be a moment to step up, show our leadership potential, show up the value that we can bring to an organization.
how might we create those opportu?
Rita Ernst: I go back to conversation and really specifically dialogue and dialogue is a very intentional state of exchange of, a conversation with somebody because it is grounded in inquiry and really trying to broaden our understanding. And the way I like to think of it is you're gonna expand the conversation.
As big as you can, and then you're going to allow it like you're playing an accordion to come back in after you've had this chance to really explore and expand and get to know. whenever you're feeling at a loss, and not understanding or feeling out of control. Starting to get curious. I say all the time, but I think it's so true.
Curiosity is the answer to all of life's challenges. If you just start with curiosity, how can I get curious about what is happening, why it is happening? How I can engage with it differently once you get into curiosity. And dialogue sort of gives you that. you ask yourself, why is this important to me Now?
Ask other people around you ask the supporters of the change. why does this matter to you? What is this getting you that's important to you? Why are you so passionate about doing this? once you begin to recognize where you have shared, Alignment of outcomes and things that you care about Like I said, most of the time it's a small sliver where there is disconnection. And then the other piece I would add to this is going back to what you said at the very beginning about all those changes that you were navigating in this job. What a bold learning opportu. change is an opportunity to learn and discover more about ourselves and our strengths and to build muscles.
when you go to the gym, you don't do the same exercise every day, day after day, after day after day. Tell the listeners, Danielle, you're nodding your head. Why do we not do that
Danielle Cobo: at the gym first? That would feel very mundane, and . Your body in order to really strengthen and tone your body.
it's shifting the exercises that you're doing to work different muscles and different skill sets. And now I can see where you're going with this. Where in order for us to develop as individuals and develop as leaders, it's learning different skill sets and different muscles and experiences to shape us into the type of leader that we get to be in tomorrow.
Beautifully
Rita Ernst: said Yes, exactly right. I mean that change is always presenting you with that gym moment opportunity to get that bus leadership body you want. Boss
Danielle Cobo: leadership body. I like that. I'm gonna have to keep that in the back of my head. Well, you have shared so much valuable information and not only understanding from a leader's perspective how they can be transparent, how they can get inclusive with everybody within the organization to.
Have open dialogue, conversations around change, and then also as individuals how we can cope with change by having that self-awareness in our emotions and validating our emotions cuz they are really there. But also how to process and have self-awareness around our emotions to take us to that next step.
And then also how change can create opportunities for our career moving forward. If there's. I would say action step words of wisdom that you wanna leave our listeners with. What would they be?
Rita Ernst: I think the first one is go internal. Our natural tendency is to complain. Complaining is one of the easiest forms of communication that we participate in.
so at times of change, we often want to get together with other people and we want to do this complain with each other. But all of that does is it might be cathartic to say it for a moment, but it's not solving for anything. And it just sort of creates what I call the toilet ball effect.
It sucks and the energy and the life out of the room. So go inside. Instead, start with yourself. Start asking yourself those questions about where am I? What do I need? why am I feeling this way? If you want to not feel stuck or put upon during change, this is how you stand.
Firm. In your self control, right as you first look in word, I think you ask yourself questions that challenge your understanding and your assumptions that you're making. Instead of assuming all kinds of things about this change, get curious and go start asking. Questions and getting more information. our minds trick us all the time with misinformation.
It's really important that we test and make sure. know, start with yourself, test all those assumptions, ask questions, get curious. And then the last piece is that remembering that there's probably 80 to 90% agreement on the what. whatever outcome that business is trying to push forward, know, this is going to give us better margins.
This is going to give us more customers. Whatever that thing is that they're saying, this change is in service to, chances are you're not in a disagreement. With that. once you can say, well, yeah, I can get behind having more customers and more money because that means I can get a pay raise. That means, I can add people to my team, whatever those things are.
More money flowing in the business means, more cash to spend on the business. That's a good thing for me. Once I understand that, then I can say, what is it about this? And is it just about the delivery or is there real content? are you just having your normal human response, which is normal to have of like, oh, don't go changing things on me like that.
a, you have it properly. Prepare me for this. This is not fair. I mean, it's okay to feel that way, but you really need to understand in yourself and then allow yourself to be your own advocate for what you are needing in that moment.
Danielle Cobo: in times of change, it is look n word.
Don't be the person that complains because complaining could create a wildfire and spread. Everywhere within an organization that can affect the morale and culture of the organization. Then you're talking about, also transparency and getting everybody involved, and also in the sense of being communicative with everybody and providing the why.
The why is.
Rita Ernst: Yes, and if you don't understand the why, go fight it. start there. Start asking questions to understand more. the, the one thing I can say, cuz I've been on both sides of the change process, you probably have as well, Danielle, because that piece we talked about, about you're, so you're months, months and months down the road, you are so ready.
It can be hard to remember. Mm, that other people aren't there. if you have this conversation about bad leaders and bad communication and all those things, that could be true, but I don't think it's bad intention. I think that it is just excitement for what you see the possibility to be, a failure to remember what it takes to get you there.
that's where I said challenge your assumptions. you, if you're assuming the person because of the way it's being communicated, you're. You're assuming bad things about that person or about the change. It really could just be over enthusiasm that's being mishandled on the part of a human being who is just humane the best way that they know how and is a little nose blind to the fact that they're not meeting their audience where they need to.
But that doesn't mean that they have malicious intent.
Danielle Cobo: I can relate to so much of what you said when I was early on as a manager, we are often previewed to what those changes are before they're actually implemented with the organization or the changes communicated to the entire organization. And I remember there have been times with.
The conversation about change was happening. We might be going through downsizing, we might be going through restructuring, and my immediate shock and the emotions that I had, I was able to process long before communicating that to my team, and that is such a great reminder and I'm so glad. That's really what we're leaving our listeners with today is remembering that if you are the first person to hear the change, understand.
You have the time to process some of those emotions and to get through adapting to those different emotions of self-awareness and then understanding that when you do communicate it to the people within your organization that. To be mindful of how we're communicating it, because we get to meet them where they're at, is what I'm hearing.
Rita Ernst: Yes, yes. Beautifully said Danielle.
Danielle Cobo: Beautifully said. Well, thank you so much for joining. I could talk to you forever about change.
Rita Ernst: I know, I know. It's a big, complex subject, but I, hopefully we've given your listeners some really good, powerful. Tools that they can add into their toolkit to help them? Oh, well I
Danielle Cobo: definitely think that you did.
And for those of you listening, ensure that you pick up her book. I will be including a link into the show notes so that you can purchase her book and continue all the learning lessons that she shares along the way on how to adapt to change and in a positive mindset. So thank you for joining, and if you know of anybody that's going through change in the Workplace, share this episode with them.
Empower them with the tools. To be able to embrace, adapt, and move forward through change. Thanks for tuning in.