Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Danielle Cobo: Are you experiencing change? Perhaps you work for an organization and that organization is going through restructuring or downsizing. Maybe you've recently been laid off or maybe you're thinking about a promotion, a new job, or maybe you're thinking about starting your own business. Today's episode, we're gonna be discussing how to navigate through change.
How to develop the grit to overcome setbacks and how to seize new opportunities.
Danielle Cobo: Hi Carol. I'm excited to have you on the podcast today. Before we dive into our conversation, can you introduce yourself and tell our listeners a little bit about
Carol Bowser: your background? Sure thing. So I'm Carol Bowser and I'm the president of Conflict Management Strategies where I help organizations of all sizes either prevent or address.
Workplace conflict, and I'm coming to you from beautiful Tacoma, Washington, the Evergreen State. And it has been a journey. We don't always end up at the same place where we started and I started in Southern California and I went to college in Colorado. Spent some time living in Alaska. Trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up and I decided that I was gonna be a lawyer and then I was a lawyer for a little while and still keep that license cuz there's some things that we're just so physically and emotionally and financially painful to attain that even if we're not really using it, we don't fully give it up.
Maybe like a beloved sweater or something like that. But the law degree, not beloved, but very useful. And I decided that, helping people become more conflict competent and conflict literate was so much more fun than practicing law, a better alignment of knowledge, skill, talents, and interest.
Danielle Cobo: So, you know, I've had a few guests on my podcast where they started their career in law and they eventually led to going a different direction.
So I'm hearing a kind of a common theme
Carol Bowser: here. Yeah, I don't know how much that relies to like reaching our grit, cuz I think the practice of law is all about grit and I talked about law school as a three-year, exercise in pain, endurance. but I also think, like any type of career transition that you have to look about, like, well, why did I get into this?
What did I think it was going to be? What is it actually? And really kind of how much pain and suffering or alignment or drudgery is it actually. the grass isn't always greener, it's just different. Grass. I think a lot of people look at it cuz it's a, big burnout profession.
About 20% of lawyers every year. This is an older statistic, leave the profession. And when I started my law school, we had someone come in and tell us about career services and academic support and they also said, probably about 20 to 25% of you, are gonna be suffering from clinical depression during your time here.
I'm like, Well, one, good to know. But although way, that wasn't in any of the recruiting materials. so I think it's also, going to grit of, there may be people who know more about the profession and the emotional and psychological demands of a profession, but they kind of keep it a little bit of a dirty secret.
and so how much of the grit journey is you kind of coming to terms with your actual experience of a particular profession or a particular employer
Danielle Cobo: now, have you experienced, do you remember if you were to look back on your life, have you ever had an experience where, You ran into a specific setback or a difficult time, and how did approach that experience and what were the lessons you learned along the way?
Well,
Carol Bowser: I think who didn't, and it's one of those, I remember, that when I was learning how to. Ski and someone said like, well, if you don't fall, you're not really trying. but I remember that law school was particularly difficult. I remember different employment situations weren't what I thought it was going to be.
and also that what I'm. I think particularly good at is listening to people and trying to help people find their own voice, and really litigation and the law is nothing about the individuals finding their own voice. and that was really hard because as I mentioned before, it was a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money to be able to do that.
And just being able to go, This isn't working. I'm not as good at this as I think that I need to be. And then, what to be able to do next. I think that's a little bit different than if someone's maybe in an employment situation where it's like maybe a particular employer or a.
Particular part of the job isn't a good fit, but what I was seeing is like, what the profession actually does wasn't a good fit. And I think that was part of it. And then also when you start off in business and you've got a couple of key clients and it doesn't work out, that can be a real, shake in your confidence of like, What am I doing here? I mean, shouldn't I be able to do this? why isn't this working? I mean, I think being an entrepreneur that, if you're not having a crisis of confidence every once in a while of what am I doing? How am I doing it? Is this the right client? What the hell am I actually doing?
This isn't, I'm not getting the results given the amount of effort or the amount of time. that's all part of it. So I think that's kind of ongoing. I think the crisis of consciousness have become fewer fewer and intensity and, further along, And one of the main things I do is I've got a group of friends and colleagues who get what I do and are on that entrepreneurial journey that I can reach out to and they reach out to me.
And that's makes all the difference.
Danielle Cobo: Having that lifeline of somebody that you can go to and talk through when you're experiencing that self-doubt or you're experiencing. I would say uncertainty of where the direction you want your business to go. I too have somebody that I actually, we use Voxer and we talk with each other every single day.
You know, we start our morning with these little messages and it's extremely helpful because the entrepreneurial journey is, it, is that it is a journey of successes and failures and learning lessons along the way. Just like if you were to work for a corporation, I recently had a conversation. With an individual who was just starting out in their career.
They had graduated college probably about two years ago, and they were saying, you know, I just don't know where I want my direction to go in my career. I just don't know what I wanna do. I took a step back and I said, you know, can I let you in on a little secret? And he goes, what? I said, I work with people that have been in their career for 10, 15 years and still figuring it out.
I don't think that ever goes away. No,
Carol Bowser: I think you're right. I'm a big kind of musical theater fan and there's like, Steven Sondheim is, I just love listening to his music. And and there's this one lyric of along the lines of the choice might have been wrong.
But the choosing was not, and I mean cause we're constantly making choices and there are things within our, influence and there are things sort of completely out of our control. There are certain economics when we're working with clients. They might have had an economic downturn, they might have had changes in their banking relationships within interest rates.
They may have cut back on the services that you offer, or they might have gone with someone who they wanted. Cheaper, less expensive. And so that can hurt too. that can definitely be a setback and not everyone knows. And I think that the workplace is changing. There are certain careers that are changing.
There are certain careers that are perhaps sunsetting. So, I don't think there are any forever employers anymore. There are certainly no forever. Positions. There's no forever technology and, it's hard sometimes, and sometimes we want it to go back to the way it was where we felt more secure and more productive and more successful.
That would be nice.
Danielle Cobo: I agree with you when it comes to this, mindset that we have of a security and being in corporate. I have come from the medical sales industry and our industry is known for layoffs. they'll lose f D a approval, especially in the pharmaceutical industry. My mom was in the pharmaceutical industry and every Christmas it was this.
I might receive a call today because we just lost the patent on a particular product and I may or may not have a job. And I remember seeing the anguish my mom would go through when those calls were set up and I've seen working for organizations where they go through acquisitions and downsizing and restructuring, and that's a lot of change and uncertainty and being able to go through those challenges and to be able to go through those setbacks and bounce back.
Carol Bowser: I think that we're a bit sold a myth about security and employment. And if you go back to like, some of the work of, Maslow where he talks about hierarchy of needs and they talk about safety and basic needs getting met, like.
Food, shelter, clothing, a sense of physical safety. One of the main ones that I've seen, or iterations of it that I've seen is safety and employment, like feeling secure in your employment. And I do think that, we've kind of grown up with this myth of that there's going to be security in employment or that that's the ideal.
But you look at the vast majority of people of how they're changing careers and that there are layoffs. I think that if we take the mindset of, you know what, that's a little bit of a fairy tale, that it could look very, very, Different. And even when you are secure in employment, like maybe you're with a very secure employer that's not gonna get bought, maybe you're high up in, a collective bargaining agreement where you've got seniority.
But doesn't mean the job's not gonna change. It doesn't mean that technology's not gonna change. It doesn't mean that it's the same employer that you interviewed with when you started your career. And I think some of the entrepreneurs. That I work with that have kind of more sustaining businesses. They recognize that stuff is gonna change and it does get bad, and you're just trying to look.
You're not trying to be paranoid, however, you are trying to figure out that, there's high tides, there's low tides, there's slack tides, and that's just sort of the nature of the business. You're trying to leverage the high stuff and try to mitigate the low stuff, and that's just kind of part of the game.
Danielle Cobo: Okay, so let's transition a little bit because our listeners may be in their car right now and they might be feeling a little angst. Their stomach may be turning a little bit because they're going, wow, there is a lot of uncertainty and this is a good reminder. And at the same time it's, What do we do now?
What do we do? How can we prepare for uncertainty? What do we do if maybe we do experience a job loss or our business starts to slow down? If we're an entrepreneur, what are some ways that we can develop the grit to bounce back and achieve our goals? What advice would you give?
Carol Bowser: So I would say, if you are a business owner, just kinda even recognize there are cycles in business that's just kind of part of the nature and getting to kind of recognize some of the cycles that your clients have.
And then the other thing is, you know, if it's in the personal life, I mean, it's a little bit of the good stuff and the bad stuff, this too shall pass. And For my work with conflict resolution, I always look at people and say, are your expectations being met or do you have some unmet expectations?
And I think getting, I. prepared for kind of bouncing back is looking at like, were, my expectations really kind of more aspirational than realistic. were my expectations, in line with what's actually going on. and also I think that being able to articulate what your expectations were and being able to make requests.
Of people who may have some influence is helpful. Sometimes I find with my work with conflict resolution of people might assume that a boss or a supervisor or an owner maybe has a lot less power and influence than they actually think it does. They do. And so we're kind of expecting someone to exercise their power, which I think can make us feel less.
Powerful, less influential. I mean, it's a little bit like weightlifting. You don't start with the big heavy stuff. You start with the smaller stuff. the smaller, easier conversations, the smaller reflective things, and the more people are clear on what they want and can express it in a way that actually facilitates change and facilitates a sense of curiosity that people wanna engage with you.
that's huge. And the other thing too is a lot of people I found don't even tell people what they want or disappointed. I'm not sure if you saw this in your entrepreneurial journey, but if you can articulate what you do, who you do it for, who you're looking, what kind of work you're looking for, who you wanna contact with, it's amazing the things that happen.
I mean, it's not osmosis and unless you can define it and articulate it, that's a really big barrier. So I think for developing the grit of like kind of finding like, why do I find this disappointing? What were my expectations? what small things can I do to articulate? and what smaller steps can I take cuz as I said, no, grit's a muscle and you got to be able to develop it.
But the other thing is if you do weight training, you know that if you take a week off, You're kind of back a little bit further that you kind of have to keep doing it. even doing the things that make you uncomfortable and scare you.
Danielle Cobo: Oh man. You speak to this heart on this entrepreneurial journey because I left corporate about two and a half years ago and I was just talking with my friend that I talked to every day and we're both entrepreneurs and we're constantly talking about.
The way that the successes in our businesses and the ways that we're pivoting and getting clearly defined in what our value proposition statement is, the type of people that we wanna work with, the type of subjects and how we wanna deliver the content. And it's always evolving. I've also found that.
we may take more pivots earlier on in our entrepreneurial journey. And also there's a lot of people that I see top keynote speakers who have been doing this 10, 15 years and they're still refining as their business evolves. And I love what you say about speaking up because there's a lot of times where people.
They feel stuck in their career. They're working for an organization. They're in their current job. They may be succeeding and doing very well in their current job. However, they still feel stuck and they're seeing their colleagues get promoted and however they're not, and what I see is that missing factor that what you're talking about is.
Did you speak up for what you want? Are you raising your hand and saying, Hey, I want to pursue this particular position. What are some of the skill sets that I'm doing really well? What are the skill sets you'd like to see me develop for that particular role? And then, as you said, work in the muscle and developing those skill skillsets continuously in order to get what you want.
Carol Bowser: Yeah, and I wanna build on what you were saying because if people are very, very good that their employer or their boss may not wanna give them up because they are very, very good and it's like, well one, I may not be considering you because you are very, very good, or I didn't realize that you wanted something because you are very good.
I mean, the job market changes and there are a lot of. Concerns right now about engaging and retaining people, and being able to say, you know, this is something I have an interest in. This is something I wanna do. And I also wanna put like a little highlight that it might be that you may have an interest in it, and you wanna develop it.
But it may not be instantaneous where people, where they have an opening for you. And it may be that you have been noodling on it, processing it, feeling a sense of dissatisfaction or impediment or a sense of curiosity. And if that has been developing for you in a long time and you're just now being able to articulate it, other people may need a time to.
Process it and sense it, and then look for openings and then particularly in an organization, then they're gonna need to advocate for you to other people. So there may be a bit more of a drag in the timeline, like that introspective work that you were talking about. It's usually those conversations that we put off.
We, just don't, spend the time doing it because it's uncomfortable and it's icky. So, for example, I worked with a designer to redo my website, which was talking about tell me who you are, what's your value, what's the brand, what's the personality, and. I just did not wanna do that, and she usually wrapped up within 90 days.
It took me over a year and I had to keep begging, please stay with me. Yet after that I was able to feel more confident and competent in what I do, and I felt like that the work actually reflected me. But it's a lot like having to write an essay versus having to edit an essay. It's like it's trying to update your resume.
It's so much easier for other people, but it's. A little bit of an icky work. So I think that's a bit of a grit of being able to sit down and figure out a plan and then not just make a plan, but eat your peas and start working the plan.
Danielle Cobo: That is some great advice because you think about there's particular goals that you wanna achieve, and it's always beneficial.
A lot of times we don't see the unique strengths within ourselves that other people see in us, or the skillsets that we have. That really makes you unique and so it is valuable to reaching out to other people and saying, Hey, What are some skillsets that you see that are unique within me? How can I translate that into my resume?
how might that translate into my value proposition statement when I'm positioning myself and my business? It's always beneficial in any area within your career, whether you're an entrepreneur or whether you work in corporate. To align yourself with a coach, a mentor, a branding expert, whatever it is in the field that you wanna be.
But I think if I reflect back in my career earlier on, I wish that I had known that these resources were available. Cause I would've done it a long time ago. But I'm so glad that I know about them now.
Carol Bowser: Yeah. And, I'm reflecting back on earlier on in kind of my entrepreneurial journey. I connected with someone, who put on this seminar about entrepreneurship for neutrals.
And a and a couple of people over the weekend discovered that they don't want to be an entrepreneur. They wanna have a job, which is, and she's like, if that is what you discovered this is probably like the best 200 or cup hundred dollars you have ever spent in your life. If you're like, Nope. Not for me.
She also told a story of someone who wanted to get out of the practice of law and start, a practice of mediation. But however, I can't remember what it was. it was a him I remember. And he might've had background in like family law or maybe environmental or maybe construction law, but didn't wanna do that anymore.
And she kinda looked at him, she's like, Kind of, I'm paraphrasing here. Are you crazy? It's like if you have a subject matter expertise that is gonna make you unique and then stand out from other people. I mean, let's not garbage it. Let's kind of take a look. So maybe you, develop a mediation practice specializing in the fact that you have litigation experience specializing that you are a subject matter expert in environmental or construction law.
I mean, that makes you a little bit better. So I think part of. The grit is maybe recognizing that we don't dump absolutely everything. We look about how we can take what we have and leverage it. And I found with the group of business owners that I meet with monthly, we have a monthly meeting we have over 10 years, and it's a pretty intimate group of, we lead with our values, we talk about our journeys and our struggles, and every month we get a little bit clearer on who we are and what we do. And oftentimes this group will say, Carol, that's your strength. You don't realize it. Nobody else can do that.
Nobody else does that like you do. But we live so close to it that we don't recognize it in ourselves. And I'm always like balancing because the other side of the coin is like, well, you may think you're great, but everybody else is comparing you to everybody else who does that particular type of work.
So you may not be as great as you. Think you are. So then how, as part of the grit and being an entrepreneur, you should be getting better at your professional practice every single year. And if you've been doing it like those speakers have been for 10 years, they've gotta have their speech writing skills, their platform skills, their marketing skills, how they run the business cuz of it's, not the same business it was 10 years ago for a whole plethora of reasons that you gotta be getting better at each and.
On a daily basis, I'm like, I don't wanna get better at Google Docs. some of those things like I don't want to, and I'm balancing like, what do I have to, versus how am I actually spending my time on things that only I can do? for me. That's a daily struggle.
So you talked about the grit moments of like realizing I have to figure out how to use Google Docs because that's how people
Danielle Cobo: are communicating now.
I also think there's power in understanding your strengths and other people's strengths and delegating and hiring out, but for those of you listening, you may be wondering, cuz love Carol, what you're talking about, which is understanding your unique skillsets.
Understand like what is the value that you bring for those listeners? is an entire chapter in my book on the Grit Factor, and it's all about how to identify. Your unique strengths, how to position yourself, how to build a career development plan, how to position yourself as an entrepreneur. So whether you're an entrepreneur or you're working in corporate, there is an entire chapter discussing How to uncover and discover your X Factor. So when the book comes out, be sure to check it out. There'll be an entire chapter on it. Well, thank you so much for joining, Carol. I really appreciate your time and the wisdom that you shared. Where can our listeners find
Carol Bowser: you? Well, they can find me in a couple of places if the website is managing conflict.com, where there are links to sign up for my conflict tip of the day.
A tip, a trick, a technique to get people more conflict competent because whatever your situation, you gotta develop grit. And not only grit, but skillsets to be able to navigate conflict and disappointment in working in personal relationships. My focus is work. they can also follow me on LinkedIn where a few years back someone said I was one of the top 30 people to follow on LinkedIn for conflict resolution.
And there's also other social media you can find me on. Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and again, all designed to be able to help people get more conflict competent. And if they're interested in more about me and my training and my services and my coaching, jump on the website managing conflict.com and hit that, conflict, book an appointment, or fill out the little, inquiry thing.
And I'm happy to talk. Spreading the gospel of managing conflict and empowering people.
Danielle Cobo: Well, for our listeners out there, if you're driving it's okay. I'll be sure to include the link in the show notes. So thanks for tuning in and have a great day. Bye everyone.