Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Danielle Cobo: Are you looking for a practical way to create positive change in your workplace, but aren't sure how to? In this episode, we discuss how to use your voice as a tool to positively impact workplace culture. Our guest today is Jess Petted. She's been stirring up difficult conversations for over a decade, performing as a standup comic, speaking on stage as a diversity expert, and moving teams from abstract to action.
Danielle Cobo: Jess, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. We have met in previous conferences through the National Speaker Association, but you were an expert on demystifying diversity. And before we get into how you demystify diversity, tell us a little bit about your background. Cause you definitely have a unique one and where you started into where you're at today.
Jess Pettit: First, thank you for having me. I did start primarily working as a college administrator doing different kinds of diversity programming, educational or social for students, faculty and staff. And in doing that, my job was to showcase how the college or university I was working at could be doing a better job.
Jess Pettitt: Right? And that's kind of what I mean by demystifying diversity. So you might be doing something, but there's still something else you should be doing. And I got fired a lot because they don't always hear that. So then after the third time of getting fired, I got a severance package. They paid me out the rest of my contract.
Jess Pettitt: So I used that time to create my own speaking business and then slowly pivoted out of the college market into more corporate and association markets as I aged and college students stayed the same age.
Danielle Cobo: It's funny how that happens, right? Somebody just keep getting older and older. Yet, I think in my mind, I'm still in my college
Jess Pettitt: years just a lot more, well, hundred percent still in my college years.
Jess Pettitt: But one day I realized one of these days I'm gonna be climbing up the stairs to get on the stage and the reaction of the audience is gonna be like, oh my God, is she okay? I'm gonna need a backup plan. So here I am. And for those of you listening,
Danielle Cobo: Jess has graced some of the largest stages. That are out there gracing the stage for Sherm and some of the top companies in the industry speaking on diversity.
Danielle Cobo: So let's dig in a little bit about, before we jumped in, we were talking kind of about some of the challenges that we see in the organization. And there's a lot of discussion right now on workplace toxicity. How do we approach it? What do we do? There's situations where we might be seeing and observing something in our organization and we may not know how to approach it, whether it be, do I go to my manager, do I go to my above my manager?
Danielle Cobo: What if the person that I'm observing is the challenge and I gotta make sure I follow that corporate escalation and ladder. What advice would you give if you're seeing a toxic environment? What advice would you give for those individuals listening right now as to how they might take that first step in approaching it?
Jess Pettitt: I appreciate the question, and I'm probably gonna be mildly annoying, but what I think is the most impactful way of addressing the question, right, is that, so if I'm experiencing a toxic work environment to your question, okay, so what am I supposed to do if I'm experiencing this? It's too complicated for the short window of time we have of what that person should do to protect themselves or maybe rest the people on their team that are like equal to them of how to navigate up.
Jess Pettitt: And it's always important to remember that hrs main goal is to protect the company, not the employee. So sometimes that feels part of the toxic environment. So here is what I would advise doing, but it's gonna make people mad. So there's your warning. Everyone who's gonna be mad grab a candy or something.
Jess Pettitt: So if you are experiencing a toxic environment and there is anyone in the company who is under you, not above you, but under you, you have an opportunity to have a conversation with them to find out what they would need to make it less toxic. You have the ability, they see you as having resources and access.
Jess Pettitt: Now, you may not feel like you have resources and access, but that person, the intern, the person in the mail room, the new employee on your team, somebody looks to you as if you are more resourced. The best thing to do is to have a conversation down and find out how do you see what's happening? Maybe they don't experience it.
Jess Pettitt: Maybe they do experience it if they do. Imagine what it would be like for you if someone above you said, Hey, I wanna check in with you and see how things are going. Well, now you would have a window to talk right then by providing the window to someone who's underneath you. One, you might actually find out that you have similar experiences, but now you've allied with someone else.
Jess Pettitt: So then they might be able to feel like they're being heard, which is automatically gonna make them feel like they have less of a toxic environment. But now you are also not alone, you're not crazy. You've seeked like validation. Now we can talk about confirmation bias at a different session, but like maybe this is what you needed to feel better about being able to voice and advocate for yourself to whoever that might be.
Danielle Cobo: Now what if you see and observe a situation? Maybe it is your manager is bullying someone. Maybe it is you have somebody on your team. When it comes to a group environment, the expectations for everybody contribute, but maybe somebody is not contributing into the level of the expectation of everybody else, and it's affecting the overall culture amongst the team.
Danielle Cobo: There's different scenarios that we possibly see within. Our culture and our organization, but it's always the, I don't know how to approach this. Who do I talk to, even if it's necessarily not affecting us, but maybe we're seeing affect somebody else.
Jess Pettitt: What's interesting about culture is that it's happening whether you're paying attention to it or not.
Jess Pettitt: You become very conscious of when you are going with the grain or against the grain, and you get to make choices. I have a monthly newsletter, and in my last month's newsletter, I wrote about this thing that came to me during my dream of people telling me, you can't do this, you can't do this. And my response to them finally saying like, you know, you're rubbing people the wrong way.
Jess Pettitt: My response was, and that is how we will both become polished stones. Now again, this was in my dream and I always remember my dream. So like it's a little woowoo for me. But I would invite people to remind themselves and others that you get better and other people get better by having these challenging conversations.
Jess Pettitt: If this is the case, so if it's merit-based or there's power dynamics, et cetera, you have the opportunity to open a window, an invitation if it's happening to someone else. Even just having the conversation with the target, that's not you of like, I'm noticing this. Is this something you are noticing? They might say like, oh no, it's totally fine.
Jess Pettitt: Like we're old friends and it just carries over. Sometimes in work, sometimes they might be like, yes, thank you. You've provided a chance for them to be seen. That's shifting their culture, they're experiencing at work where they can't talk about it. If you are noticing something, like it's just like, see something, say something.
Jess Pettitt: We are taught that to avoid terrorism or violence or bombs being left places, but that doesn't end bombs. It does make us collectively know that we are responsible for seeing something and saying something just like we are collectively under the impression that someone else will do something. That's where we're wrong.
Jess Pettitt: It is a very good possibility. No one else is doing anything, and so it's our opportunity to extend that conversation. So if you don't feel like you're in a place of power to extend the conversation up or address the bully, or address the bully supervisor, you can always extend it down to see if you can build comradery, build community.
Jess Pettitt: That shifts culture now in the moment where the person is doing the bullying and you are present. And I used the word safety on purpose. Because I don't mean discomfort. It's always uncomfortable to tell someone a superior, they're doing something wrong. But if you feel like you could say something and you are not going to now become a target of bullying and don't, that is also cementing the cultural norm that this behavior is okay.
Jess Pettitt: So you have to say something to keep the culture changes evolving to where that behavior's not tolerated. Even if that person's fine with it, you can say You can't do that around me. I like
Danielle Cobo: that you can't do it around me. It doesn't align with the integrity of where I see it being, okay, whether it's in the workplace or without the workplace.
Danielle Cobo: Now, Bullying is sometimes a broad word, and I know I've the one that kind of initiated this word, bullying in our conversation, but let's define what is okay or not okay .
Danielle Cobo: within the workplace, because sometimes the lines get blurred. I would say there's, when I first started in corporate and I was very young, I did not always align.
Danielle Cobo: My actions with what I believe to align with my integrity and core values because I wanted to be part of the in crowd. The cool salespeople wanted to be part of the inner circle. I've learned as I've more matured and has become more confident within myself that to really check in with myself at all times with any actions that I do.
Danielle Cobo: But what are some actions that you observe where this is an opportunity for us to talk about what's okay and not okay in the workplace
Jess Pettitt: and get that line draw for us. What's beautiful is that it's like a line in pencil that varies and changes per person, per context. Before we started recording, I was telling you about this client I have, I'm working with her that are, it's one client with two different kinds of mechanics and it's very west side story.
Jess Pettitt: There's this kind of mechanic versus this kind of mechanic, and the only time they unify is when it's mechanics versus administrators. So the administrators have hired me to like go fix their communication problems. And what's interesting is at the mechanic house, they all work in the same building.
Jess Pettitt: They just have different kinds of mechanic work that they do. And then there's, they work four tens. So there's the Monday shift and the Friday shift, and that's how they identify. But they work together Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. It's fascinating to me. I love people. What is fascinating is that, let's take two guys individually.
Jess Pettitt: This actually just happened. They cuss at work, they call each other names, et cetera, and it's just the culture of what happens in the mechanic office. When they leave the mechanic space, they know that they have to like clean up and they wash their hands and they're going to a meeting or something. I did a training for them recently in person, everyone had, but mechanics all start working at 6:00 AM.
Jess Pettitt: And then my training started at nine, so they were all driving however they were going, or carpooling or whatever, from the mechanic shop to my house. They all came in different teams, and this side parked on this side of the building and this type or this side of the building, west side story is alive and well.
Jess Pettitt: And two of the people from the same kind of mechanic office that are having communication issues didn't carpool together. The one person brought like three or four people in a company car and the other person had to drive their own car and didn't wanna go to the training. They're coming up and the one who had to drive by themselves would like very confrontational, very emotionally expressive, lots of cuss words at the person who had carpooled and evidently didn't ask him to carpool.
Jess Pettitt: But in the context of the shop there, that same in group team language would've been fine, but because it was on the steps of a different building with different people from different offices to come to a different training, that guy getting written up by HR now. But had it been two miles away in their own office, it would've been like a Tuesday.
Jess Pettitt: No big deal. But the context really matters. And at the root of it, what he was angry about was that he had to leave the shop to come to my stupid training and he's in the middle of a really big fix and he had to like take time away from fixing the thing he really needs to fix. I was talking to the supervisors after the training because now they're gonna have to write this guy up and blah, blah, blah.
Jess Pettitt: And I just said, I just want you to notice that while you're writing him up, That if the location and the time had been different, that behavior would've been completely acceptable. And they were all like, yeah, absolutely, but you can't do that here. Not in front of other people from other offices. My training, things like that.
Jess Pettitt: And I was like, right, you are manifesting this culture divide. The training hadn't started yet. It was outside of the building. It was two people on their own team. But because there were other people around, you pulled this like HR paperwork process. Now it becomes a conversation. For me as the consultant, it becomes a conversation on the supervisor level of when do you use the HR tools and when do you not?
Jess Pettitt: Because you're also in control of these levers. We did the training, they sat together, everything was fine, and at the root of it, the one guy. Felt left out, didn't wanna come to the training, and was in the middle of a really big project that you have to stop in the middle of to come to my training. All of that was manifested by the supervisors, so who really needs to be written up.
Jess Pettitt: That's the conversation that real leadership, real managers, whether they have it on their TI job title or not, need to have a conversation of when are they outsourcing these challenging conversations. And when are they able to manifest them in real time? Part of this is about direct communication, being emotionally expressive.
Jess Pettitt: When is that acceptable? When is that not acceptable? When do you need to tap it down a little bit more because of context, time, or personality? And that depends, as we were saying beforehand, I know it's a very long answer, but as we were saying before we hit recorded, It depends on the context and the information that you're providing.
Jess Pettitt: And that group of mechanics, the big theme that came out was that they don't view emotions as facts, and emotions are factual. They exist, and they said like, tiptoeing around just makes the matter worse.
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Jess Pettitt: I used as an example, and this is to the group of leaders, is I want you to come up with an example where indirect communication is preferred, and they absolutely couldn't do it. So then I was like, all right, so they're like, this is dumb.
Jess Pettitt: Indirect communication's never appropriate. It's finally what they agreed to. So I said, fantastic. We live in a small town. I saw your wife with somebody else, and I think your wife is having an affair on you. How do you want me to have that conversation with you? And they were like, well, we would have no idea.
Jess Pettitt: Like you can't just like blurt it out like that. And I was like, right, cuz like more indirect would be more effective. Or what if I'm a doctor and I think you're in an abusive relationship and your partner is sitting in the room. So I need to talk about like this history of fractures in your bones. I am planning a surprise party for you.
Jess Pettitt: And there's a reason I can't tell you what I'm doing Thursday after work. There's a lot of reasons to how we communicate, and the more we're in a leadership position, the more it's our responsibility to shift. And then going back to the previous stuff is that sometimes we're views as leaders, even if it's not our job title, can we take it upon ourself to shift for someone else and also pay attention to when we need to shift up as well.
Danielle Cobo: There is a lot to unpack with that, but those are real examples, not only in our everyday lives, but in these leadership roles, whether it's within the title or not, where we are seeing these conversations happen. What resonated with what you said is, as leaders, what culture are we. From what I heard with that particular scenario with the mechanics, it's like, in this particular building, it's okay.
Danielle Cobo: That culture is okay, it's allowed, it's a safe environment, but wait, all of a sudden you're moving to a completely different building and we've gotta shift our language a little bit, but is leadership. Setting the tone, are they sharing with them that that's the changes that need to be made when they go into that building?
Danielle Cobo: It's how is it coming from the top level down on where that is being
Jess Pettitt: taught and modeled? And is that lesson gonna come out of the actual manager, administrators writing them up in hr? No. I
Danielle Cobo: feel like if that was in a situation, if I were that manager, then it would've been, hey, have a conversation outside the building with that particular individual.
Danielle Cobo: And it could be along the lines of, Hey, I know that this way may be the way that we talk to each other in the building because we've agreed that that's okay in how we talk to each other, but while we're in front of this building, That perception might be perceived a much different way, but it's a matter of shifting our language when we're going into a different building.
Jess Pettitt: And even the liminal space between the training hadn't started yet. Like we were all out on the street waiting for the door to get unlocked cuz the person was late. So it was that in between space, you have people who are like, no, no, do not let people see what our actual workplace culture is like. And then you have other people who knew this going in, so they're not remotely surprised.
Jess Pettitt: So at the break in the training, I asked the supervisor, the, the, not the highest ranking person in the room, but the supervisor related to those two men. Can I use this as an example in the training afterwards and like use it and work through it now instead of you writing the person up in hr and the supervisor was like, I've already contacted hr.
Jess Pettitt: The process has already started. And I was like to get it done versus actually developing the culture has now caused a problem. Now I'm supposed to go up, I do a follow up training in April, who wants to come to my follow up training? They might get written up. They've just made this even more complicated, and they hired me to work with this group of people on their communication skills.
Jess Pettitt: Without even realizing it, they've actually made this even more difficult. And it's
Danielle Cobo: interesting that you gave him the opportunity to say, can we make this a coaching opportunity, a training opportunity while we're in this session together? But he had responded by saying, well, I've already contacted hr, so it's done.
Danielle Cobo: Versus just cuz you've contacted HR doesn't mean that that could potentially open up a discussion as to a verbal warning. Does it need to be a written warning? I mean, there's so much opportunity here,
Jess Pettitt: so much opportunity and HR was in the room. I invited HR and I invited the union rep to the training so that nobody could triangulate what happened.
Jess Pettitt: So it's an awesome opportunity. I'm not saying I could have fixed it. But I feel in the moment example that all of the leadership saw didn't get addressed by the communication consultant because it got outsourced to paperwork. That told me more about the culture of the organization than anything I'm gonna get from a listening session.
Jess Pettitt: A lot to
Danielle Cobo: unpack there. What are some other examples where you see some breakdown in. Communication and possibly how might individuals approach it where you're seeing like some other examples? I think before we had jumped on, we had talked about you had read a case on the military, a military scenario.
Danielle Cobo: Where there were some people that were contributing more to the project than other people. And that feeling sometimes that we get where it's like, here we are doing all of this work, but we're getting paid the same, and there's other people that aren't holding their weight, and how do we approach that?
Danielle Cobo: Because that can create a very toxic workplace culture as well. And if management isn't doing anything about it, then it can
Jess Pettitt: be very frustrating. A lot of that has to do with just kind of the individual versus the collective. I don't do that much military work, but my sense of commonalities of the work that I have done is that it's very collective mentality in that as long as X gets completed and it's been assigned to this small subgroup, it is irrelevant.
Jess Pettitt: Who in that group did it? But the individuals in that subgroup, it is incredibly relevant. Who did it and who didn't do it, but it's not a merit-based organization. X got done. That's all that matters. X got done. Now, I would imagine, and like ER nurses are very similar when they are in a crisis, they are synchronized swimmers, but in between there is all kinds of toxic business going on because they got time and they're bored.
Jess Pettitt: And they're very aware of who's not doing it and who's not pulling their weight, and then who's overworking or possibly even making fun of people for being like overly ambitious, overly eager, they're too new to the job, yet they haven't gotten jaded yet, or it's part of like a hazing process for new people.
Jess Pettitt: So then again, the managing supervisor needs to be conscious of that experience, and what tends to happen is they survived it and got elevated to manager. And now they don't want to deal with it anymore because they quote unquote got out, except now they're in a position that is perceived to have the resources to do something about it.
Jess Pettitt: But when you get elevated into a leadership position, you're now the new kid at the table overworking and getting hazed at that table so you don't have time to remember what it was like down there. Like you guys duke it out. I'm dealing with different stuff now cuz you feel all isolated and all by yourself.
Jess Pettitt: All this is doing is creating my own job security. But in theory, what you could do is work your way back down. We constantly are looking up, and I think that that's by design, because we're intimidated to always do work up or it's too much risk for us. But doing work down, there's no risk. You are perceived to be more powerful and have more resources, so do something with them, even if it's not true.
Jess Pettitt: You're still perceived that way by somebody. And not doing something with that opportunity is sending a message of what
Danielle Cobo: happens. Yeah, I've definitely seen that before within organizations where when it's not addressed, it actually causes more of a toxic work environment, because then the perception is, oh, well, if Susie isn't gonna be doing the job, then I'm not gonna try either.
Danielle Cobo: Why would I do it if they're not, or here this person is creating a toxic work environment, but if no one addresses it, then it sends the message that us as an organization are okay
Jess Pettitt: with it. Doing nothing is the equivalent of endorsing something. That's a really important thing to understand because you think of the amount of time a committee.
Jess Pettitt: Has spent on how to say they are doing something. The reality is the most efficient way is to do nothing. And that is exactly how you're telling people what you're doing. Part of the reason the committee has to wordsmith it is because they're wordsmithing what they ought to be doing because we won't take the time to articulate what we are actually doing.
Danielle Cobo: And the challenge too, I've noticed from being this in a leadership role is there have been times. Where I did not approve of the behavior from an individual on my team. I was working with HR on the situation. However, it was taking time to gather all of the information, the customer complaints, the frustrations from the team, and the way that this particular person was talking, not only to customers, but people on the team.
Danielle Cobo: But it was taking longer than anybody wanted. So the perception was that I wasn't doing anything even though I was. And that can be a very challenging situation to be in. As a manager
Jess Pettitt: too, and that's what came up actually in the one-on-ones, if we go back to the mechanics, is there's this loud message of like, you know, we've been complaining about communication here for forever, and nothing ever happens.
Jess Pettitt: Nothing ever happens. It's so bureaucratic. They're making sausage, nothing happens. And I was like, hi, I'm here. Something has happened. Maybe it took a long time. Yes, it's a bureaucratic thing. You work for the state. You're estate employee that by definition you work for the county is going to be bureaucratic.
Jess Pettitt: But enough complaints came in, that funding was found, a consultant was found, and I am sitting here listening to you telling me that no one is listening to you. I'm right here. I am here to listen to you. I am evidence that you have been heard. What do you want to say? And that I think that it becomes part of their identity to be unheard.
Jess Pettitt: So then when they have the opportunity to be heard, they don't know what to say. What ends up, like, part of the reason why I think consulting work can be kind of pricey is that I now have to dig and dig to find the patterns to then tell them what they have known all along. They just haven't been able to articulate.
Jess Pettitt: Now that we've identified the problem, now what are we gonna do?
Danielle Cobo: Lots of digging. What I'm hearing from you is, number one, if you're observing something that doesn't align with. Your values, your morals, your integrity, speak up. Don't just internalize it cuz by doing nothing that doesn't help the situation at all.
Danielle Cobo: And also in addition to speaking up, it's about taking action
Jess Pettitt: as well and never underestimates somebody looks at you like you're a leader. You are probably complaining about the people you look to as a leader. So break the cycle. You can do what you're doing and try and change them, which is not happening.
Jess Pettitt: Yeah. Or you can do something different and be a different leader. For people who look to you for leadership, for guidance, for management, that's a conversation that you can have at zero risk. Be
Danielle Cobo: the leader for somebody else. It's not a matter of having the title to do it. We can show up as a leader in all areas of our life and reach down and be the leader to somebody.
Danielle Cobo: Well, thank you Jess, so much for joining our podcast. You are such a valuable wisdom that you get to share again on demystifying diversity and how to have these difficult conversations in the workplace.
Jess Pettitt: I love it and I love the approach that you're bringing to people to create better spaces. I'm honored to be a part of it, and here is to grit, resilience, and courage so that all of us can thrive.
Jess Pettitt: Thank you. And
Danielle Cobo: before we jump off, tell us a little about your book, cuz I'm gonna include the link in the show notes.
Jess Pettitt: Sure. So good enough. Now is my website as well as the name of the book. Good enough Now. And if you are interested, the second edition that came out inside Covid, because what else was I gonna do as discussion questions at the back?
Jess Pettitt: And so I also created a book club for folks. Which a lot of times small staffs or kind of the choir practice of the people who are interested in more, then we can do a book club for it as well. And that information is at good enough now book.com.
Danielle Cobo: So I will include the link in the show notes for those of you that are listening, I invite you to encourage you to go click on that link, get the tools and resources to have these difficult conversations.
Danielle Cobo: And thank you so much for joining. Absolutely.
Jess Pettitt: Thank you so much.