Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies
Danielle Cobo: Jen, I am so excited to have you on today's podcast. The previous episode that we just aired was episode 1 0 3, and we were talking about understanding behavior types with Dr. Robert Rom. And now we're gonna be kind of digging in a little bit more on behavior types and how they correlate with stress.
And burnout. You've had a unique background, going from marketing to being a fitness coach and for the past 10 years you've been doing leadership, but please share with our audience where did this journey lead you to being an expert on behavior types.
Jen Hope: it's a great question. I got my start working in the agency world in marketing, which you saw and, along the way, I worked in startup organizations and landed in Seattle, about 15 years ago now, and was working in startup companies and really seeing what it looked.
Myself around me, what it looked like when there were leaders who were put in positions they were definitely skilled in, but not ready necessarily, or even provided the resource of leadership education and not provide Self included in mistakes made along the way in leadership journey of not understanding self.
And that comes from not having the self-awareness, not having the leadership maturity, not having the professional maturity to understand self-awareness. And for some of us, this happens really early, happens in our education, it happens at home for some of us. We're out here bumping into all kinds of stuff in in our career, and that's how we figure out that we need to go on this journey.
Inward. And that was, my own experience, learning, looking around, seeing the leaders around me at the time I was, working in startup organizations were given a lot of responsibility, a lot of complexity. Not necessarily the tools or, the experience to really handle the, the complexity in front of us in leadership.
manag. a rocket ship, managing a team of 15, managing, a thing that is, filled with ambiguity on top of it, as you're, building a plane flying in at the same time, which also, happens a lot in startup organizations. how does it relate to fitness? it maybe does, it maybe doesn't.
I think it does. I think there's a lot of behavior change that happens in the fitness world and being a fitness instructor and seeing that there is a process that all of us go through to create behavior change from. The pre consideration stage of, wow, I think I should join a gym all the way through to the high fives and the building of community that keeps us coming back.
Right? All of that, the positive reinforcement that happens when we become someone who decides to keep walking into the gym, every day. And then I got to study, I got to study, tools like disk. I got to study leadership assessments. I got to really dive into what it means with some of the most recent research around what we know about leadership, what we know about effective leadership and geek out on data.
we talked a little bit before this about that, about how I started as an internet marketer back Way early two thousands. I got my start there in data and I think it's, really informed a lot about who I am as a coach today, the leadership development work that I do today.
Jen Hope: using information, to guide that process. The, the human being who sits in front of me is always the keeper of the truth. That's how I, set up. Feedback and, the way we look at data. but it helps inform and, we go from there
Danielle Cobo: before jumping on, you and I were both geeking out about the certifications that we received and all the different courses that we've taken and.
we have both had that experience where there's been times in our career where maybe we didn't necessarily have the training and development. And then there's the moments when you as you say, geek out on the data and the research, and you really dive into what makes us tick and how we can learn to thrive as leaders when we have the tools at our fingertips.
And. There's just so much that we get to unpacked with this, and I'm so excited to dive in because, leadership is so complex. Leading people is very complex, but also, even if we're not leading people, there is a direct correlation and research shows this, that people that have a high level of self-awareness, Are more successful.
Most of the CEOs out there that are successful have a high level of self-awareness, and it starts by understanding our different behavioral types and how we can use our behaviors to improve communication, level up our I'm gonna have you dive in a little bit, and we wanna understand, in the last episode we talked a lot about the different behavior types, but how does that behavior affect our stress?
How does it affect when we get to burnout, how does it affect when we have those emotions of overwhelm and frustration and we are feeling we're rushed all the time. share with our listeners your expertise on. Behavior types and burnout. Yeah,
Jen Hope: I'll start with, an example of what we mean by that.
Right. I, I have leaders show up who have roles in all different parts of organizations, and they have responsibility that looks like, leading a sales team, we have folks who are leading a product organization, folks who lead, performance of a global organization,
And, for each of those, there are the innate strengths that that individual likely needs to bring to their role For. If I'm in a role and part of my responsibility is to be engaged with people all day long, I'm in a sales role, I'm in a customer facing role, I'm spending a lot of time in market. even if I'm leading large organization, I'm spending a lot of my day doing one-on-ones, And if I am a person who is truly introverted, where we like, some level of the extroversion and then really get, our rest or fill our cup in, isolation. and I mean that in a good way. really understanding.
What we need and how we fill our cup. And if I'm somebody who wants to spend my time out in the world, And I'm raising my hand because this is like a lot of who I am. I really function this way with people. And that person is in a role where they're looking at a spreadsheet all day long,
and really having to be in this. Reflective internal, not getting the feedback of an individual's, that they're connecting with doing their relational opportunity or even spending time in a role where they need to be, even pessimistic. Would be a really hard challenge. This is somebody who, I'm giving an example of somebody who's high in influence right above the line, in influence.
Jen Hope: and they need to be in a role all day where they're quite factual, really logical, even going all the way to pessimistic. So if I need to be somebody who spends time just analyzing risk, that may not be the role that fills. And it may be the role that feels, because I'm adapting, call it a 85 on influence, and my role requires that I'm out of 15.
We have a mismatch in a way that will feel stressful for that individual to the point where, in early days it's tolerable its most difficult days. We get to a point where, we start to. and it's most challenging. we get to a point where we will permanently avoid and we will quit,
that's the starting point, Where it just feels like we can get into this place where we are forced to either buy the role, the culture of the organization. This can happen as well if we're a super optimist, almost borderline, overly optimistic, that happens. raising my own hand here, sometimes can happen.
Jen Hope: And we are asked to be in a position where, that's not our strength. The culture of the organization, the, season of the organization is requiring something different from us that can lead to this stressful feeling. And it's one of the questions that I'm looking for when I'm talking to a leader.
Danielle Cobo: A lot of us will think that, okay, they're an extrovert, so therefore they thrive when they're in round people. I, am one of those. You spoke. Extrovert, but also introvert and understanding that just resonated so much because. in sales, we would go to these conferences and we would go to these trade shows and we'd be on the trade show four for four days straight, and we would be talking all day, and I would always come home exhausted.
I, Had the energy while I was there and it was this motivation, it filled my cup cuz it, helped with that, extrovert type behavior that I am. And at the same time, I would always come home and block out the next day and I would curl up on the couch with my beige.
Snugly soft, velvety blanket. And I would be in my PJs the whole next day because I knew that if I didn't fill my cup up with that time of being that introvert and just relaxing on my own, and I just kept going, I wouldn't give myself that time to recharge. understanding our different behaviors where you're saying is that can help us understanding.
When we want to be in certain roles or doing certain tasks so that we are not bogged down, and we can actually put ourselves in situations where we can thrive.
Jen Hope: Absolutely. I have great examples of this too in working with CEOs around, their, board presentations around, being out fundraising,
It's an exhausting, can be grinding, moment where we're getting constant feedback if we're out there and we're high influence even if we're not. the exhaustion that comes from being out. Doing fundraising, telling our story, That's another place where even if it's the story of the organization, even more so, if it's our own story, raising my hand here as somebody who, did a lot of public speaking.
Jen Hope: very similar story to yours, where even the lead up, right? so much preparation, so much using, Problem solving and structural skills and executive functioning to get the story right and the creative muscle to flex and be that vulnerable, Also can create this downward, feeling.
once it's complete, We've birthed this thing out into the world, and then we go, internal and go into that reflective state and say, I've put myself so out there and now I'm gonna, spend a little bit of time in. Build our cup, do those things that nurture us. but yeah, I think your story is, like so many folks that I work with where we're out there, part of our role is to, be so publicly facing and to put ourselves out there in a way and be so relational.
Like when you were telling the story, I was thinking about the strengths of somebody high influence, Such a relational skillset. innately someone who, is. Quite trusting and is, likely to give that to others if I could make some leaps maybe about how people feel in your presence, but I'm guessing it's pretty comfortable, you put folks at ease.
I'm here with you right now, so I can tell you that's my experience of you with that. You put folks at ease, that you can hear it in, your interviews too, You're really conversational. That also comes sometimes at a cost, We then have to. Take care of ourselves and do that, nurturing of, self that you talked about in the big snugly blanket.
Danielle Cobo: what would you recommend, so our listeners, you and I we understand the disk behavioral assessment very well, but what advice would you leave for our listeners who maybe not know it into the depth that we do, but they're trying to understand, well, where do I fit in and where can I.
Understand maybe my behavioral traits and characteristics, my how and my why, so that I can take the steps to when I am stressed, to pivot and to reevaluate or even increase our self-awareness so we don't get to that point of overwhelm, stress.
Jen Hope: it's starting with disk, We can look at the strengths, based on a couple hundred years of studying human behavior,
folks came up with disk and particularly like a, digital version of disk. and it's a great tool in that we can start looking at. Strengths and potential limitations. what can help us in a leadership environment is understanding our strengths and how they relate to our team.
Jen Hope: that will tell us a lot if I'm in a conversation with someone, if I'm building a team or around a table, building a conversation around the table, knowing that there are folks who are going to be, task-oriented let's get to talking about the task, knowing that there are folks who are going to be relationship-oriented people-oriented sitting around the table.
Jen Hope: and I'm never suggesting that somebody hires specifically for that balance, but knowing the balance, knowing that I've got a, table full of task-oriented individuals that we might not have The moment to pause, innately to pause and think about how does this change that we're talking about or how does this impact the people of our organization?
How does it impact the people of the team that this may be affecting? same thing with, pace, So are we slow paced? Do we prefer faster pace? If we're sitting around a table and we've got a group of folks knowing that there are folks who may be slower paced and may prefer time to come to the table, with ideas.
we're sitting around a table. How do we give time to folks to say, I'm gonna go think about solutions and bring something back to you that's practical, that's well thought out. That may not be happening in the moment. If everyone at the table isn't the same style as maybe you are. Or maybe you're that leader who's saying, Hey, time out.
I'd like to pause. Think about we're talking about here, and I'd like to come back to you tomorrow after I've walked on my treadmill and fed my dog and had a long hot shower where I do my best. Does that
Danielle Cobo: helping folks, do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think about, as a team, one of the things I did as a leader, Everybody took the assessment.
and I do this too, when I'm doing my consulting with my clients, when I'm leading leadership, programs, we always start with the assessment, understanding our different behavior traits and characteristics. And what I did when I was leading a team is I actually put their primary and secondary as a picture so that every time they called, I was like, okay, this person leads with a conscientious.
Type behavior or this one leads with a steadiness. I have some, employees. They asked a lot of questions. They wanted a lot of details. They wanted to analyze it, and I say, okay. I would look at my phone and go, do I have the time right now to be a hundred percent attentive?
Knowing that that conversation's probably gonna be a little bit longer than a personality who is a little bit more directive and just wants quick answers right off the bat. And then the same goes to. When it came to our region meetings and leading presentations, and there would be individuals who thrived on the business acumen they loved to dig in the data, they loved to understand where's their business coming from, who is growing within their business, who's declining, what are the strategies to get everybody back on track?
And they would present that section of our region meeting. And then there's other people who are like, okay. Now that we understand the data, how can we make our trainings really fun for our customers? And so I'd put somebody who's in the influencing type behavioral, and they would be leading the fun part of how to take a training and make it really fun.
Danielle Cobo: when we understand our team and where they're at, we can help lead them in different tasks or responsibilities where they get to thrive. That's what I'm hearing you say, and that's what I did it when I was a leader.
Jen Hope: Absolutely. I think it gives us too an opportunity where if you are thinking about your preferences and, if you're debriefing with an individual who's taking you really a step further than just understanding self and thinking about the folks opposite to you.
I really like to have folks, spend time as we go deeper together, thinking about the folks around them. We sometimes find that there's a rub, I can tell a quick story about working with a colleague who. I'm a like mid-level seek, which is compliance,
closer to the mid, the energy line where I can play above the energy line, which is, more higher compliance, more data orientation, detail orientation. and there's below the line compliance, which is somebody who's gonna be really comfortable with ambiguity, big picture thinking, likes to play outside the box, right?
That kind of thinking. And even my midpoint. So I was. 40 something and this person was like a five on compliance. And we had rubbed because that individual, based on the way that I. Thought and went into details on projects, felt really, boxed in by my leadership style, asking questions that were detailed right at digging into how the process would work of an idea, right?
And not immediately into the weeds, cuz I'm not
Danielle Cobo: even that. I'm pretty low compliance,
Jen Hope: By, the big picture But it really led to some areas where there was rub around this compression, around this boxing in of ideas. and it took the disk to really, surface it and give us language to say, oh, that's your compliance.
I'm lower on compliance than you are. And here is. , we can work together and see, oh, this really truly feels like nails on a chalkboard to me, when you put me in this box, when you put ideas into a box and to be able to create empathy around it. Same thing for somebody who wants to work at a really fast paced and they've got a somebody on their team who prefers a methodical thought through know, more.
Conservative with change approach, and to them it feels like nails on a chalkboard when we're, foot on the gas pedal. And it really helps. to see, oh, this is your stance. this is where I can, I think you mentioned this earlier, creating empathy, creating connection for this is truly painful for this person.
It's not just them. trying to get the best of me, or, they didn't wake up today trying to rub me the wrong way. This is truly their gift. This is truly their strength. It's truly what they show up with and how do we, harness, collaborate, create that empathy for one another and say, Hey, thanks I, have the language now to understand the how of your why.
This is how you do what you do, and we can respect it. Still be driven slightly batty by it sometimes.
Danielle Cobo: We did an episode and I was trying to look at the, number back. It was about career defining moments to showcase your leadership potential. So even if you're not in a leadership role, this can still apply for a variety of ways. One of them being thinking about understanding your behavior and understanding.
Danielle Cobo: the tasks that you like to do, because those are the moments when you get to raise your hand if there's particular projects to get involved in and raising your hand for those particular projects, you know that if you like to be more compliance, you like to be more analytical detailed, then raise your hand for those particular projects.
If you're saying. I really thrive with that relationship, that communication, that connection. I've got a lot of energy. Then raise your hand for those opportunities where you get to lead presentations and maybe get the team involved in things. And then also if you are, I wanna take it a step further just because coming from medical sales and having, 20 years of medical sales experience, the same applies to understanding your customers.
Danielle Cobo: If you have a physician who wants all the data in our world they wanted the journals, they wanted the publications. They wanted to know the details of what the side effects were for every single product. And knowing when you understand your customers to that level, you can tailor your approach to support their behaviors and where the detail, or maybe the not so much detail that they wanting.
Jen Hope: It's so true. I have experienced something quite similar, doing development and consulting for an organization that is, led by folks who are really relational and they're selling into engineering organizations.
and it can be right, not always, but it can be a really logic, data-driven, organization. And so really helping folks to understand that when we're creating marketing material, when we're building in sales teams, Even building in customer success, the balance of having these folks in our org who really can help us translate our optimism, our, incredible sales pitch into.
This really logic driven, data driven, message, to your point so the audience can receive it, and to, your ideal customer, who you're really trying to help, right? But we need to speak the same language, definitely.
Danielle Cobo: You talk about optimism, I think that sometimes when people are asking, let's say in the tech world, you've got an engineer and they're asking a lot of questions.
Sometimes the perception may be pessimistic. they're asking all the questions cuz they're trying to find the holes in the particular product. And it has nothing to do with that. they're asking the questions because they want a lot of detail because they wanna know that they're making the right decision.
They wanna anticipate all the, problems could or could not take place by implementing a particular product. And that's understanding. It's not so much with certain personalities that they're pessimistic. Those questions just be their behavioral. Factual,
Jen Hope: logical, right? I talk about this with folks sometimes, and sometimes it resonates where they say, there's a, individual who is going to read the TV manual and there's the individual who's gonna throw it away,
And this is truly like, I'm not even gonna open it and I'm gonna put it directly in the recycling. And then there's somebody who's reading it, truly cover to cover. And that is how far we have to go to understand the spectrum of behavior. And this is where bias shows up.
this is my own story on bias and, being in a sales and marketing. Role for so long I was surrounded by a lot of folks like me, really rewarded for extroversion, really rewarded for this influence style, high influence style. And it wasn't until DISC came along for me that I got a real eye-opener around.
How that can really push folks away. you brought up Orange Theory as this example, Where you're in this room and folks are motivated so differently. For some folks, it's a big old High five. For some folks it's a shout out on the mic, and for others they barely want. Me to acknowledge their presence in the room.
It may be an elbow bump or a wink or a, nice job in private, And that is of those areas we're really learning that I could go in with all of my extroversion. Same thing in a sales call, You show up in a sales call and you can go in with all over extroversion and we're shutting folks down, and it was a big eye-opener for me
knock you over the head eye opener that that could really be getting in my way and really did. That same, thing with the optimism. Not being able to have some flexibility, which can happen when we have really high or really low scores, really, clear preferences. we don't necessarily have an opportunity to flex and to enter an environment with that as our starting.
and to be able to adapt this information gives us the moment of pause that. That person's leaning back in their chair. What do I need to know? How can I lower my voice? How can I change my stance? How can I make this where the energy that sometimes builds trust and builds relationship also can work really against me, right?
it can erode trust. It isn't what it's gonna take for this person to build trust with me. They need information. they need facts, they need data. And that's gonna be so different that's gonna give them what they need to come with me to come closer.
Danielle Cobo: There was an episode that I did, it was all about languages of appreciation in the workplace, and let's just use words of affirmation.
For example, there was some people on my team where they wanted the public. Hey, great job. Congratulations. here's where your successes were. They wanted that. And then there's some people that did not want the spotlight on them. They actually appreciated more the words of affirmation when it was picking up the phone, calling them directly and saying, Hey, thank you so much.
Congratulations on your successes. There's the people that want to be on stage. Receiving the awards. And then there's some people that's like, don't put me on stage. Just give me the award. I'll go celebrate on my own. And that just really speaks to versus the introvert and how it applies.
We've talked a lot about building teams and understanding behaviors. We've talked a lot about, where. We can put ourselves in different roles, how we can raise our hand when it comes to opportunities within our career and, flexing our behaviorsto go for those particular opportunities.
And then also, understanding your team and individuals when it comes to celebrating their successes. So much to unpack in this episode, and there's some episodes where I'm like, okay, lot of content in here, but I think thatwith you and I. We can talk for a whole nother hour, but we've also already talked about possibly having you on another episode.
We're gonna be going over some, 360 reviews and, possibly diving into that as well. So thank you so much for joining our episode today in the podcast. great conversation. Thank
Jen Hope: you so much. Great to be with you.