S2 – INTERVIEW 4: Nancy Rubin Stuart

National Book Association. Researcher at Carl Nellis talked with Nancy about her book on Maggie Fox, The Reluctant Spiritualist, which retells Maggie's life in dramatic detail. About halfway through the conversation, a storm rose up around the studio and forced us

to make some changes to the recording set up. It made us wonder whether Maggie was pleased with the project, but I think that you'll want to hear Nancy's side of the story anyway, So we begin with Nancy's perspective on what it took to be a spiritualist in the nineteenth century. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season two. I'm Aaron Mankey. To be a spiritualist in the nineteenth century,

I think would take quite a bit of pluck and bravery. Um, depends on where you are, because you would either be revered, adored, admired, or you would be despised and connected with all the evil things in the world and all of the fears in religion about communion with the devil. Mm hmm. So what were the motivations then, So you say it would take pluck and bravery. Uh, And that's that's so clear in the lives of the people who were involved. But what would motivate someone to to become a medium or

to go to a seance? Well, to become a medium, I think, I mean the movement itself had huge residence through society. You have to understand that in the nineteenth century, especially in the early years and up to the Civil War, there was great religious ferment and change. Um. Started with the Second Great Awakening, which was sort of a refutation in a way of many of the Enlightenment ideas of

reason and logic um. And so the Second Great Awakening looked at the Romance really evolves from Romanticism English romanticism, where um, you know that there's emotion and that human beings, Um,

there's something magical and mysterious about us. And so there's a revival at that point of different and really transformation of many different religious ideas, so that you have new sex forming, you have revival meetings, you have camp meetings, you have charismatic preachers, um, and you have questioning of the old calvinistic ideas. That man was you know, imbued with original sin and he must suffer and if he didn't live a certain kind of a life, he would

he would burn in hell fire. All of this with the changes that are going on around it in nineteenth century American industrialism, cities, urbanization and so on, UM made people think that, you know, there were there were other ways to be a good person and other ways to embrace the world. And so brotherhood and abolition and co education,

all of these themes start to come in. So questions about religion, the old religion, and then questions about the afterlife prevail and so there's sort of, I say, a breakdown of the old, very old values and a look at well maybe death, which by the way, was you know, the life expectancy was short for children, um, for women and for men. I mean in Massachusetts, for instance, the life expectancy for a man was fifty For a woman this is average was forty two. So death is all

around us every moment. So what is death? Is it to be feared? Are we to burn in hell fire for our sins um or? You know? Is death something that is benevolent and kind and you know and infects all of us and that therefore we shouldn't fear it.

So given that as a long background, um, so spiritualism becomes the idea that one could commune with that the human being is not just a body, just a logical, rational, you know, set of tissues and cells and whatnot, but is rather there's something higher, There's a spirit, and that spirit cannot be quelled or die with with the body's death. And so spiritualism is a communion with the spirits of those who have gone, and a happy communion in general,

a positive one. So another kind of big picture question, but that reframes the conversation just a bit. Is how significant is spiritualism as a chapter in American history, particularly for women in American maybe in American women's history. Well it's yes, it's extremely significant for women. I'll come back to that in a moment. But it's also UM. I

would say that it is. It is a conduit for many things that are today greatly transformed from that because it encompasses many different social movements UH, and encompasses early psychology, It encompasses early political UM means of UM, you know, looking to get rid of slavery. UM. It's it UM.

It has a whole whole. But besides what we know about today, when we think about spiritualism, and I'm talking now in the vernacular, psychics and crystals and all the previous new age that went on in the in then UM and so on, all of that really goes back to what happened with spiritualism and this whole resurgence of this idea of communing with spirits. So it's very important movement UM, which we just really don't even think that

much about today except in certain circles. But as to women, it's very important because women were very much involved in UM in the very early days, with the pro social movements of abolition in particular and brotherhood and obviously the beginnings of women's rights, where you want to have equal rights for everybody, that all souls are equal. I mean we get into that whole aspect of religion, which I'll

come back to later. But UM, where all souls are equal, therefore all people in a way, all all people of all colors and races and creeds are equal, and so abolition, which is which is sort of the driving force. People like William Lloyd Garrison, for instance, was a spiritualist. So there's a belief on that that spirits can should be all spirits should be respected, and therefore so women in their early, very early women's rights many of those people UM actually sat at at some of the saying very

early sayance tables. In fact, you know, it's been said that some of the early founders, by the way, people like Elizabeth Katie stanton Um for instance, there are others to them at Clintock's UM and some of the others, the very early ones that that those tables that that you know, this is all all blended in in the in the very early days before the Seneca Falls Convention, before we dive into the life of Maggie Fox, the

people that she knew, the events she was a part of. UM. I wanted to ask one more question kind of about about your work and your perspective, because in addition to writing a biography of Maggie Fox, you've also written historical biographies of Marjorie Meryweather Post and Merciotis Warren and Isabel of Castile. And it made me wonder if there's a common thread between the women that you've chosen to write

these long book length studies about. Yes, there is not that it was ever, I guess in the beginning intentional, Um, but I mean the first biography, well, I've written other journalistic books before. They're on social trends and women. But the first biography I wrote was on Isabella of cass Stile, Queen Isabella. But you've mentioned the other books, so I won't be labor that. But more importantly, I was curious, and this is going way back. But really this is

going back now. You know in in you know earlier that what what about women in power? And what happened to the women in power? Much earlier than our time? I mean right now we're having a great deal about this again. Um but um, then, particularly with what's going on within Me Too movement, But what happened to women who had power? There were women occasionally in history who had power and what happened to those who didn't have power and why so my biographies all reflect that. That's

the link MHM. So let's step back into the eighteen forties. M And you mentioned that it's this period of religious ferment, uh, And some of what we're seeing in the history is um some young traditions, some young denominations are starting to grow in power and conflict with each other. Methodists, Universalists, they're Shaker communities. And you mentioned the revivallest kind of practices of camp meetings and circuit preaching and that kind

of thing. How did this kind of religious atmosphere open space for spiritualism in particular, and which traditions in this ferment were the strongest influences on Spiritualism's origin. Well, I think it's it's again, it's a it's a mix. It was what we'd call this eight guest of of the time,

the flavor of the time. What was sort of in the air, what was being discussed, because all of this was being discussed and experienced in Upstate New York in particular, which by the way, was a very prosperous area because the very canal had opened and so all the produce and all the furs and all kinds of other things that were coming from the North could now come down through the canal uh into the Hudson and down to

New York City. So places like Rochester, New York, which is near with the spiritualism, the official start of American Spiritualism supposedly begins. UM. And I'll explain that in a minute. Supposedly because there's a lot of other threads that feed into that. Um so. So it's also Rochester, New York is a very sophisticated at that point area. It's a city, and it's prospering, and it has filled with ideas and people have come in because again it's one of the

conduits for the early early the Erie Canal. And it's it's um, you know, in its own way, quite sophisticated in terms of ideas. But as it turns out, also it's Rochester's in the middle of what was then in western New York. And um, all of the sort of the leading new religions UM. The Miller Rights would predict at the end of the world, UM, you know, which

eventually becomes the Seven day Adventists. UM. The Shakers had come from England, the Shakers were a branch of the Quakers, but they called Shakers because they shook during their religious ecstasy UM pronouncements. So the Shakers come from England, but they also are settling up state in New York. And of course the Mormons, UM the Book of Maroney and UM Joseph Smith all start an upstate New York. So

there's enormous religious ferment. And out of that religious ferment, by the way, also comes a skepticism eventually, because there's so much of it. In fact, it's been called Western New York at that time the burnt out area that people were really burnt out with all of these camp meetings, in these different religious expressions and meetings and and so on, and so there's a sort of a quest for a

return to the simplicity. And you know, not that spiritualism is simple, but the idea of it is that again will come back to the all souls and the UM pushes underground. Real road is really important in upstate New York. Many many women in particular are helping UM, but men too are helping slaves escape so they can escape up to Canada and be free. So in all of that the idea comes out. Now there's a man called Andrew

Jackson Davis. And Andrew Jackson Davis had based his ideas on this idea of communion with the spirits UM with an earlier UM European philosopher sweden Borg so sweden borgi ism and Andrew Jackson. He then promotes a book UM just before the Fox Sisters sort of begin and they know nothing about they the girls know nothing about it, but he promotes the idea of spirit communication again and that one can communicate with spirits. Spirit communication is is ancient.

It's probably as old as mankind. I mean, it goes way back into the Greek philosophers. It's it's in many Asian religions. Um. The the Native Americans continued to worship spirits. So this is not new, but he's given it kind of a new twist. Uh So UM. That is the bad ground for how this book, this book, The Divine Revelations of Nature UM comes out as a best selling book and it sweeps the country UM. And one of the people who reads it is none other than than

the girls older sister Leah fox Fish. But the girls don't know anything about this. They begin spiritualism in such a humble way um by first trying to play tricks on their mother that they're little farmhouse which is in um, it's about thirty miles from Rochester, is haunted. I mean it begins in such an incredibly folksy homey way um and that's part of its appeal. Um. And they are they Maggie Fox, the heroine of the main character in my book is is fifteen and her sister Katie is twelve.

I mean, they know nothing about the other part. It's just fantastic coincidence that that really ignites the beginning of spiritualism. And can you describe in brief what it is that they do that kicks this whole thing off? Sure? Well, their mother is very superstitious. The girls had come, the whole family had come from Rochester. So you have this fifteen year old board Maggie Fox, she wants to be back in Rochester. She's a teenager obviously, uh. And Katie,

who will a little sister, will follow her. And their mother is so superstitious, and they live in this old farmhouse and they start thinking about, well, who lived there before? People lived here before, did people die here before? And then they decided they're going to play jokes on their mother. And so at first they're doing all kinds of things somehow or other, and I've by the way, I've tried this,

it doesn't work for me. They have tried to make sounds with their toes, um popping their toes, popping their ankles and so on, um, to make these raps, these ghostly raps that would occur at night. And then to sort of hype this up, I mean, they keep practicing it. They have a cousin actually Leah's daughter. Their their sisters, their older sisters daughter who's with them at first, and then to kind of rev this up, they tie strings on apples and they mimic footsteps in the middle of

the night and scare them mother. Um. So that's really how it begins, and she becomes convinced, and then they they go too far with it. Then mother becomes so convinced that they continue with it. They're they're thrilled by it. And then they they say they think there's a spirit they can communicate with, and they talk to it, and then one will talk to it and the other other one will make quietly wraps with her feet, and pretty soon Mrs Fox becomes so excited and hysterical that she

invites in the neighbors. And now they're caught. So they continue on with the seances, and of course the church, the local method Methodist couple of churches not too happy with him. But anyway, this becomes a crowd of sensation and and people start coming from all over. And as a man who I guess would be an investigative reporter today who starts writing about them and visiting them, and it gets promoted in newspapers in Rochester, and it really

becomes quite a sensation. And meanwhile Leiah, their oldest sister, who is a single mother at this point in the piano teacher in Rochester, who has read the Sweating the Andrew Jackson Davis Um book and knows that all these ideas that are going on when she's a piano teacher to the wealthy in Rochester. She comes to find out what is going on with her with this seance. By now there are crowds of people, the people lining up the whole Fox householders and cannot function this just it's

they can't control these scances. And every night they do these seances. Um and Mrs Fox kind of sort of announces them, and the girls are caught in this terrible sort of why but they can't. You know, they're going to be disgraced. Their parents will be disgraced if they they refuted. And Leiah needs money. Um, and she's quite a promoter. She's really a very good pr person. Um. She brings them to Rochester and she she has them,

she forces them, she's sort of blackmails them. Actually she's not the kindest person, and she blackmails them, um that she's going to expose them if they don't continue these seances. And then she tries to learn how to do these movements with their toes. But she's older, she's in her thirties. She can't move her feet the way they did. Um, so she depends on them for that. And of course

eventually there's this newspaper hubbub continues. It ends up that there it reaches I mean, there are people like Horace Greeley in the New York Tribune and others, but he in particular, who gets wind of it. He sends up a reporter too to witness it. They attend all these seances.

You know, there's a lot of funny stories and strange stories one can make the argument that these girls, through Leah, would know about the people whose whose families so loved ones had died, and so they learned a lot of information. And when they sit in a darkened room and hold hands and and sort of do a religious ceremony, you know, blessing everyone with peace and contentment that they're going to reach one of these deceased people. Um. And then suddenly

the raps come um. And then either Leiah interprets them as to what it's about and relates intimate details about this beloved one's lost one's life. People are amazed and believe it. Um. But you know, there are many accounts, not just then, but later on where you really have to wonder whether there's whether they develop a clairvoyance, because some of them are inexplicable, and it's threaded throughout the book,

but there are those other incidents. But anyway, it finally gets to be so big, and meanwhile the church is of course a horrified they think these girls are, which is, they are communing with something they shouldn't be communing with the dead. So that there, you know, again, as I said earlier, they're they're you know, they're death threats against them, and they have to be you know, very careful where

they go. Um, and some very religious clergy and people in Rochester threatened to kill them and run them out of town or tar tar and feather them at the least. Anyway, they end up in November of forty forty eight, UM, they end up on a huge stage um in Corinthian Hall, which is a grand hall in Rochester at that time, and they give a seance, but other reps are just very vaguely heard, and it's obviously a rather large auditorium. The presses there, one of Horace Greeley's reporters there from

New York. There are other reporters there and um from the Rochester papers and elsewhere and upstate New York and UM. So there's outcry, are they frauds? Are they hoaxes? What what's happening? And there's a committee appointed to examine the girls, particularly Leiah and Maggie at this point, to find out what they're making these sons with their body that they must be. So these these examinations go on for four

or five days, um, several of them. Because it's an age of modesty for women with the women, um, you know, having them be basically underressed down to their underwear and examining them. And and there's all kinds of prominent people who are now believers, um, everything from you know, city officials to judges and even senators because they have had the opportunity to be in a seance and communicate with

a loved one. And most of the time the messages, by the way, are reassuring, um to the people who are still grieving. So that that goes on for five days with these examinations, but nothing is is determined, and the publicity on this spreads is they continue to do these seances, which by the way, layers pocketing most of the money, um, which Maggie and one of her books um later on the missing link to spiritualism um you

know later much later in life bitterly describes. But anyway, it grows, the movement grows, and within a year or two, um, I mean they're they're nationally known. There are child mediums springing up in other places. There are spirit circles that are now in seven or eight cities across America. Um, you know, from Philadelphia to San Francisco. People become believes there are new mediums. I mean the idea for a medium was you had a pretty untainted spirit that you

could commune with yourself. You were a living person who had you know, you were innocent, you were able, and you were able to receive these these perceptions in these messages. So there are many many child mediums, and then of course in particular women mediums because they were so much more protected from quotes the real hustle bustle male world

in the nineteenth century. And eventually they get to New York where Horace Greeley again um is kind of watching them and promoting them and being kind to them and meeting them, and they're staying in you know, wonderful hotels, their Broadway Broadway doll song written about them. There were dolls that have made replica. You know. It was became

a rage all over um. So now you have these country girls who were being brought up into this, this entire venue h this this whole way of thinking about people and learning about them and trying to interpret what what the what these spirits are saying when there are

these seances. It's an incredible movement. Um. By by eighteen fifty four, there are fifteen thousand petitions signed signed in the petition by some very prominent senators and judges and so on, and it's brought to Congress because now it's become this outrage. I mean, the religions are all up

in the air about the standard religions. But you know, there's a funny discussion that goes on about how to how to do this in Congress, but ultimately it's it's it's tabled for the moment um, but it I just want to mention that because it just shows you the enormity of the popularity of it, and UM, the the fantastic publicity that surrounded this early movement, and you mentioned that some of that publicity is is positive and they

make friends among the press like Horse Greeley. At the same time, some of the doubts, right that started at the very beginning, like you mentioned, continue on after that first investigation in UM, there's also an eighteen fifty one investigation where they bring in Buffalo University faculty and and they have a relative, Mrs Culver, who publishes an account saying that Maggie admitted to her how they made the raps and the fact that they were staged and that

kind of thing. What effect did the these kind of personal pushbacks are the constant scrutiny have on Maggie box Say in particular, Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, she doesn't she at least in the beginning, does not love this. She's kind of roped into it. She's kind of caught in it. You know, she's one of the she's really more in the beginning, more the one who does it more than Katie. Katie learns. Katie seems to

become quite clairvoyant. Um. But Maggie at times has gone on strike with her sister Leia because she resents the fact that Laya is so overbearing and grasping, and she seems to keep all the money to herself. And while they live well in there, you know they probably have bodyguards, um, dressed well and their celebrities. Um, she's just not completely pleased with it. You know. I just want to say, there are there are distinguished people who all sort of

weigh in on this. Besides doctors and senators in Congress and so, and they're distinguished writers and thinkers who also weigh in on this. People like Ralph Waldo Emerson, who, while transcendentalism is is his his pet philosophy, transcendentalism, meaning that this world is only a shadow what was this physical world is only a shadow of a larger spiritual one. I mean again, this is part of the whole, the

whole aura of the time. But but you know, he becomes disgusted, and he finally he calls it a rat revelation, that the gospel that comes in by raps in the wall, uh and bumps in the table drawer. And James Russell Lowett, the poet, condemns it. And Henry David throw says and he thinks people who believed it were idiots inspired by the crackling of a restless board. Um. And yet there are famous professors like like um uh professor emeritus of

University Pennsylvania, chemist Robert Harry becomes a believer. Um so. But anyway, so Maggie at times um has rebelled and this has not worked too well, and she's again caught up in this this whole kind of a whirlwind of publicity and fame and celebrityhood and attention and so on. But she's she and I I'll call it the reluctant spiritual because she's again she's kind of she's kind of forced into keep keep doing this, and she has she has at least a sense activity to people and maybe

some clairvoyance. It would seem that way from some of the later reports Um in my book, I I really don't judge who I tell the story because I'm a storyteller, but I don't judge whether I mean there are clairvoyance, there are people who work for the police department today, and and other things that have happened that there are occasionally people who you know, who seem to be able to predict or understand UM something that isn't obvious to

the rest of us. So Maggie has become by now she's she's an eighteen nineteen and she's Leah wants to spread out the people who do the science, as Katie is already fifteen or sixteen. So she's got Katie in New York to work with her, and they do tours really all over by railroad. But Katie UM, and Katie seems is now a beautiful young woman. Also they're both very good looking, which certainly helped Um have both men and women admire them on the in the seance circle

and be close to these celebrities. But Maggie finally goes to the Web Hotel in Philadelphia and she's giving she gives seances there. I'm going to stop there because it starts her her whole other story, right, and I want to actually I want to jump to that in just a minute. But there's an episode, there's a there's a kind of dramatic episode in Troy, New York as well for Maggie. Um, right before she gets to Philadelphia. Do you remember the details of that. She is remarkable, is

all I can say. It's it's it's very strange. Um. But again, there are terrible death threats that are made for them, towards them, and and so so it is with with Maggie, and she just doesn't want to go on. I mean, she's she's kind of a nervous character where you can understand why she's kind of nervous and she just doesn't want to go on. But she's again she's caught up in this forced to go on. It's it's

too late to refute it. Too many now thousands of people and too many things that have happened, and so she must continue. Well, then let's jump to Philadelphia and that other part of her life that opens up when she meets Elisha. Yeah, Elishah Cancaine was a from an elite Philadelphia family. His father was a judge UM, and mother, you know, was you know, from a very wealth, well to do Philadelphia family and the very distinguished, upstanding citizens.

And Elisha Cancine is a physician, um, but he's also an explorer. Uh. He has rheumatic fever. So I remember his father said to him, well, your life may be short, but make it really useful. And Elisha, knowing he had rheumatic fever UM, which was fairly common in those days, uh, did exactly what his father said. Besides being a physician, he he had he wanted to learn more about the world,

and he wanted to help people in other ways. And one of the one of the things that intrigued him was the the the disappearance of Sir John Franklin, who was a British explorer went to the Arctic with a crew of men, and they disappeared and nobody could find them.

And he was determined that that he he could, and so he went with his own crew of people on the Resolute Uh, and he went to the Arctic had already been to the Arctic once and I'm not funded enough, even though UM major universities and major funders, including I believe UM part of the Smithsonian, the early Smithsonian, had helped UH fund that expedition. Well, he came back and in UM eighteen fifty two. He I don't know why, but I think he was intrigued did everything. He's intrigued

with ideas. He decides he's going to investigate, and he's extremely dubious. Being a physician, he's dubious about the reality of this seance. So he goes to a seance with Maggie Fox. Both Maggie and Katie were very beautiful young women, So that certainly did help UM in terms of people being popular and amazed. And you know, this was a time when women didn't speak out in public, and we're doing that, and so were mediums around the country now

for the first time. So it's pretty interesting. But anyway, Maggie, it's eighteen fifty two, it's Webb's hotel in Philadelphia. She's there by herself doing seances, and he appears, and he's dubious, but that he comes back again a few more times, and of course they have discussions and he becomes intrigued and pretty soon they're in love. And this is not going to go too well with Leia because Leia wants

to keep Maggie's sort of a cash cow. UM. She certainly doesn't want to getting involved with somebody like him. And he, uh, he's, as I say, from this, this really elite family. His father is a district judge, his mother is an important society matron in UM Philadelphia, and they're distinguished couple, UM. And they have a very um, politically prominent family in Philadelphia. Nevertheless, he continues to court her, and when Maggie goes back to New York, there's all

kinds of scenes. There are many different episodes that happen, UM, and they she does have to go to Washington d c UM, where again she's you know, doing seance. Is very prominent people, senators and so on. And he wants to marry her. And there are bitter fights with UM with Leia, and this is going to really I mean, and moreover, he wants to make her into his wife. Well, she's not going to be a medium, which was considered at that time. Again, there's a great deal of skepticism.

You know, who are these people? I mean, they're like actors. They've fraud us. There, actors and actresses weren't considered among the highest level, no matter how gifted, in the middle of nineteenth century America, and it's great disdain and contempt for these people on their their roguish. Um. So this is not going to happen. But he has an idea that he's going to turn Maggie into quotes a lady,

and he'll do so by sending her. He'll educate her, and she of course had not had much education from the time she was about fifteen once they started to become popular. So um, he she agrees to marry him, and as an enormous breach with Leia and even with Katie because Katie is now sort of the main um

spiritualist along with Leia. Um that Maggie is, you know, at Maggie's and madly in love with him, and he with her, so he has to He is about to take yet another expedition to the Arctic, and um before he does, he sets Maggie up in a school. Actually it's in it's in a place called Crookville, Pennsylvania, which always amuses me. But it's with a woman who has is a teacher and it's all actually almost I think

it's a private situation. And she lives there and the woman sort of make sure she isn't doing anything improper, and she's keeping her, you know, making her study all the time. This is not good for Maggie. And she's out in the country. She's bored out of her just bored to tears. And um. She returns a few times to New York City. Meanwhile, on May eighteen fifty three, Um, Alicia Cancine departs with a crew and he's funded by the Smithsonian and all kinds of other people. In this fanfare,

there's a huge salutes, um um. He's not remember that he's not, you know, part of the navy, but there's navy escorts and so on and newspapers and so on, and off he goes to the Arctic again, and Maggie is stuck with this woman Mrs Turner and Crookville and runs keep coming back to New York and he is gone for um he's actually gone for over two years. And she waits for him, not happily. She um actually

sends let us to Greenland several times. A few times there's a couple of uncanny things where she senses he's in danger even though she isn't hearing from him, and indeed he is actually the the the ship gets frozen in the ice, which is disastrous for the crew. Um, and through all kinds of heroics, he walks hundreds of miles and is freezing cold and learns how to reach other people and some of the Some of the crew now begin to work and live with the Native Americans,

the Eskimos up there. Um. Some of the stories are pretty grim. He's also an artist, which is fascinating because of a great book that he does later, which the in which there are wonderful drawings of what the Arctic looked like. They're pretty ferocious. Anyway, he finally comes back, and the odd thing is living in cold, cold air, yes, away from the impurities of whatever chimneys, smoke and whatever his rheumatic fevers is. Um. You know, he's much better,

he's stronger, he's he looks great. And then she waits for him, and here is about his arrival, of course, and she's waiting and waiting and he doesn't come, and she becomes hysterical. Finally, two days later he comes to her. She basally, and she's at that point in New York

and living at her mother's home. Her mother's home, by the way, is it's Horace Creeley's home in his townhouse, but he lives in the country then, and she's actually living to her other person that came a family had helped a friend who was trying to look after her. And he comes to her and she's so happy to see him, and she can't understand why he didn't come and see her right away, and she's waited two years and he says to her, Maggie, I can't marry you.

And you know, she's given up spiritualism, she's alienated most of her family, she has no income. Um, he had funded her up until now. Why can't you marry me? Because I came to proof of you a rapper which is what they called them, Um, and UM, I can't marry you. And um. She she of course becomes hysterical. Um,

she's just not considered good enough for him. And she says, well, you know, you say you love me and no matter what, and he says as well, UM, yeah, but my family says they're going to disown me if I marry you. So there are months and months of all kinds of um attempts to get back together again and so on and break off. And meanwhile Leiah of course and Katie.

I mean, there's a lot of tension with the Fox family and even Mrs Fox because this is something they'd signed on and spent now quite a few years invested in, were known for that. Finally, finally, um In late um in. But he's going to know he he's back from the Arctic. He's he's a hero. He's a hero. He is. He's writing a book about this last trip. He did not, by the way, find Sir John Franklin and his crew.

That is somewhat later than that is found that they find the remains of those people, but that's another story. Excuse me. So um finally, Uh, he's supposed to go to England to be honored by the Royal Society and to have reception all Whitehall and all kinds of other dignitaries because it's fantastic that he did this, and his health is failing, but um, he's going to go anyway.

And a few nights before he leaves, he suggests to her that they get married, but he can't marry her in a church because his family disapproves, and they will find out there in Philadelphia. But they communication and newspapers and everything very quick between Philadelia, railroad very quick between Philadelphia and New York. And so finally before Mrs Fox and Katie in an unidentified friend, they exchange vows in what would be called a Quaker ceremony. Now, if you

know about the Quakers, they often becomes a legitimate marriage. However, there's in this case, there are no civil certificates or registrations. This is just quotes the marriage UM. And she is thrilled. And several days later he leaves Um for Liverpool, England, and he arrives there in October eighteen fifty six. UM. And his plan is, now that he's married her, he's going to support Maggie with the proceeds from his book. As first book was popular, but this one, the Arctic Explorations,

is going to be even more popular. He's going to be able to support Maggie on that money and not worry about his family disinheriting him. And there's, you know, a way that they have secretly they have an intermediary who can get her letters to him in England and so on, because his money is still watching very carefully.

Um it's just really heartbreaking and um so. But what happens is he's in England and if you know about England and nineteenth century chimney smoke, coal burning fireplaces in the air is really terribly polluted in his war since

his rheumatic fever. He finally becomes so ill he cannot go on to do some of the other things he was supposed to do, and the doctors, royal physicians hustle him off to a warm, sunny climate and that turns out to be Cuba, and there are a couple of communications where he writes to her or she she doesn't get most of his, and he doesn't get any really almost any of her letters because the family is always interfering.

And he gets to Cuba and he's almost dying, and a couple of the members somehow get down to Cuba for his last days and she reads about she before he Before he there, he told her he would leave her something in his legacy if anything happened, because he knew he was terribly ill in his days were numbered anyway. I mean, he always had these scary pneumatic fever text, but this one was deadly. This one was fatal, and so he dies, but she doesn't learn about it till

she reads about in the newspaper. So now she's without a way to make a living and she's technically a widow. Um and uh, they're very unhappy years that fall um, and she she still has his letters. She um tries to get the family to provide for her through quotes

his legacy. He left five thousand dollars in a legacy, but it's not really pinpointed for her, and she tries to prove with the family that she was his wife and she should at least received dour rights, and they get involved with attorneys and it was a protracted lawsuit Um that goes on. Now the lawsuit takes place in yes where philadel of course, where he's from and his

father had been a district court judge. And the family keeps making these bargains and if she'll give the letters because they don't want anyone to know he was married to quotes the rapper um Um, then they'll provide for her for a nuity out of this five thou dollars. And there's a struggle that goes on for a long long time. But ultimately and somebody else, neutral party holds

the letters. But she gets a little bit of money, but it's not enough, and it goes lawsuit goes on, and finally the lawsuit just they just um, they just don't believe her. The lawsuit is discounted. She's discounted. Um. She's made to feel ashamed, um that she's just nothing more than an opportunist and a promoter and nobody they don't even know if she really married him, and you know, she and being another illicit woman here and uh, finally

she falls into depressions. She also lashes out at them in letters and other behavior, and so she becomes known as a very unstable, emotionally disturbed person, which doesn't help with the lawsuit or her public image. And finally, out of desperation, and it's not until May eighteen sixty two that she finally co has co authors with his book

with a prominent social prominent spiritualist, and a journalist. It's called The Love Life of Dr Caine, in which she publishes the letters and thinks this is going to make her money and also justify and and validate your love affair with Dr Kane you know, but by then nobody gets Look, it's after the Civil War. Um. Actually it's right sort of in the minute, sort of in the middle of the Civil War, and nobody really is two involved with this old spiritual scandal that had gone on beforehand,

and she's been forgotten. So basically there's really no money, um, that's left for her to live on. The family really does never come through with the rest of of that that settlement. Do we know what the Fox sisters thought of the Civil War? I mean, it seems pretty clear that this was really what occupied Maggie's attention, But do we have any other kind of indication, you know, the records.

First of all, I should probably have said earlier on the records, um on some of this are all you know, they're all They're obviously contradictory records everywhere, but they're not all that well documented. So we don't have and we don't have everything that we wish we did to verify as as one would do today. UM. I don't. I would assume given their long history with abolition earlier on in their lives, they would um, you know, be in

favor of the the offering of the slaves. Um. But I can't tell you that in any definite way, but I do know that the Civil War revived still more interest in spiritualism because unfortunately, there was so many deaths from it that people again sought to communicate with their lost loved ones. Mhm. You write so beautifully about Maggie's real sense of suffering and loss, and she also starts to drink more and more and more at this time.

Can you talk about um alcoholism for Maggie and for Kate. Yeah, let me just say that, let's just back up for a minute, and let's just say first of all, her father had been an alcoholic and at one point that her parents had separated until he reformed. So this alcohol and his family and is that we know today that happens to be a hereditary tenets for this, but that

wasn't knowing that. UM. Also, by the eighteen thirties, along with all of this reform that was going on, there was the beginnings of a real big time temperance movement. So alcohol is um frowned upon by many religious groups and in the public in general, even though it's extremely common. Maggie in the midst of her breakdowns and so on, after Alisha's death, on finally actually becomes a Catholic, which is interesting, but it was something that Elishah had expressed

interest in. UM. But you know, the good Catholics do not believe that one should be communing with the dead um. In any case, she does become a Catholic. She does drinking more and more. And by the way, her sister, who has become quite a famous and now beautiful, lovely young woman um so is drinking. The two of them are drinking and and there are various efforts to put them on the wagon, so to speak, especially Katie, who, as I say, has become extremely prominent as a medium.

And Maggie is at this point still forced to live off her sister and the money her sister's broken from Leah to UM that that she's making and her mother the money that that you know supports them is also used to help support Maggie for quite a few years. Mhm uh. And Katie actually goes into the Swedish movement Cura Hospital in the sixties, right and and builds this

relationship with the tailors. Yes she does now the Swedish who was one of those many and there were many, you know, health reform movements going on at that point, in the beginning of the sanitarium um movements, or at least the acceleration of them, and water cures and die cures. It was very popular in the mid nineteenth century. You see,

things never changed, do they, um? But anyway, yes, So the Swedish movement Cure was run by this doctor George Taylor and his wife Sarah and uh in New York City. And um, they care for Katie and they try to keep her sober and teach her about this. But every time, because she's and she also does sciences at the same time. And by the way, her science is continuing, her clairvoyance and I put that in quotes continues to be extraordinary. I mean there are many accounts. Uh. And even with

the tailor's um, she's able to call up spirits. But they lovingly monitor her and take care of her. But every time she goes to a party, which they don't allow it to do till she seems to be, you know, having having removed the addiction. Um. You know, their dinner parties and say and whatnot. She's offered wine and and

she drinks it, and then she's she's back again. So it's a sort of a ping pong situation for them, but they really adopt her like a daughter and take care of her in unloving way, and eventually, eventually, UM Katie too, UM, Maggie too. UM. Maggie won't go to the to the tailor's at least initially she resists it um, and she um slowly is beginning to go back to spiritualism. Leiah, of course, Leiah is amazing. Um. Leiah is a very bright, opportunistic, dynamic,

uh and charismatic if tricky person. And she finally she marries a very prominent man um. You know, this is a later in life thing. His last name is Underhill, and he's wealthy, and he is really trying to help

Katie and Maggie supports them. He sets them up an apartment by themselves in West forty fourth Street and then considered a pretty nice area in in Manhattan, and he is funding both Katie's rehab and Maggie's support for quite a long time, even though there's you know, just really ugly feelings and a rift between Leah and her younger sisters. And then in the early seventies, h Katie Beeves she goes to London. Yes she does. How is she received there?

She's wildly received, because of course spiritualism is long since crossed the channel ever actually, since the eighteen fifties has become a sensation. There are spirit circles there. Uh, there are, by the way, scientists looking into all of this trying to figure it out. Um. And she's very well received and very popular. And um, she too married. She marries a man named Henry Jenkins who was well to do. Um. And they seem to have a happy marriage. Um. They're

all kinds of things. She has two children, the first one Ferdinand, the baby they say is psychic. I mean they have all these stories about him being able to predict things and quite a bit. And then she has a second childhood named Henry Jr. Um. And she's still drinking. I think. Um, again, some of this is a little fuzzy in terms of the records. She's still drinking, but she's it's not terrible and they seem to be happy. And then suddenly he dies and then she discovers that

his legacy is money, as he's originally from Germany. I mean, uh, it has to go back there. She's not going to get me money for um, and she comes to the United States and back to New York with her two children. Maggie meanwhile, is become a spiritualist again because it's the only way she can make a living, and she is good at it. She's become quite popular and she is um moving along with that. How does Maggie go from re entering spiritualism to the point where she publishes through

another writer? She works with another writer to publish this confession, saying that her seances are fraud M well, the quick on. I will be quick on it because there's something else I want to say afterwards, but which is important about the impact of spiritualism on psychology. But um, very quickly. Um. Katie has come back with these children and she's drinking again, and the children neglected, or at least they're seized by the authorities, and she's accused of being an unfit mother.

And Maggie Memo has gone to England and is doing seances there, and she is extremely upset about Katie, and she decides that she has got to confess, and so even before she comes back to New York, she um. She confesses, she makes she starts to make comments and newspaper articles about how she's going to refute spiritualism, and indeed, Um she comes back and there's a few interviews with some New York newspapers that are hyping what she's going to say. And then she and Katie Um do an

interview together. Uh and finally, um, yeah, she Maggie says, I'm going to exposed corruption in the Spiritualist in this Spiritualist ulcer. Now, I mean, Spiritualism has not become very florid. You know, there are spirit cabinets, there are flowers that fall down during things. There are people who reappear this ghostly hands. I mean, the Spiritualist now association is very large and all over the all over the country and international. It has become quite elaborate. Some of them are hoaxes,

some of them are not all anyway. October twenty one, she appears but for three thousand people in the New York Academy of Music, and she gets up on the stage. She confesses, and she says, and this is how it happens, and she and hikes up her skirts and shows how she makes these sounds with her feet with her toes. Um. And you know, by now there's a national association of spiritualists and so on, and they are just outraged. What

follows UM is in a normal mis controversy. UM that goes on for a long time, and then a year later because nobody by then, even though she got money for this performance, and she's now written a book actually co audit this book, UM that uh about spiritualism. But then she refutes it. She refutes her her refutation. UM. Long story show it. It's it's kind of sad, but UM it leaves a lot of questions about her. She's towards the end of her life, Katie's is dying and

does die of alcoholism. Ultimately, Maggie does die two and they're all kinds of mysterious knocks and sounds. A person who is her nurse, it was not a spiritualist, cannot explain them at the time of her death. UM much more to say, but we're going to run out of time, so I only say that this this. The psychologists have

become intrigued. This leads into William James Howard, UM, psychologist actually in the philosophy department at Harvard, starts investigating some clairvoyance and one of them is Lenora piper is never explained. You cannot. And so this this starts the whole investigation into what we would call parapsychology today, what we would call looking into bipolar UM. All kinds of things that happened thereafter that become a lot more complex. UM. So it's it's a gateway, UM, if you will into UM.

What we know today is a modern psych modern psycho psychology and understandings about psychiatric states and trance states and illnesses and and so on. I think that's all pretty familiar to people today. But then was brand new investigation and lots of investigations, among them the American Society for Psychical Research, which was bona fide um scientists, which was sort of a carrier from the earlier British Society for

Psychical Research, and UM. Much much later, the National the National Spiritualist Association of Churches with nysak UM was was finally recognized UM as a as a legitimate religion and used to be centered in upstate New York near cassaday Or. It's now called the lily Dale Assembly. And I've had the privilege to go there UM and UH can meet with some of the real spiritualists. I mean there's a whole process that isn't you can just be kind of

spiritualist into a seance as a whole registration. It's it's very strict and fascinating. I'll just say that. One more thing. The you know, people have laughed about this, well, people like m Artacon and Doyle. Here we are the most rational detective. Um writer, he's a spiritualist. Houdini started out being believing in it, and then he got to debunk it as a musician, as a magician. Um. You know,

it just kind of goes on. This This leads later and much later into investigations by people like William McDougall, Harvard psychology professor was the chairman at Duke, his disciple Dr Joseph Banks Ryan, who look into esp um. After World War Two. Parapsychology labs um morphed into the Parapsychology Association, which is now part by the way of the American

Association for the Advancement of Science. So that's just kind of a quick study, um well, quick um run through on some of the impacts of of this spiritualism that started with these two girls and a little these two little girls teenage girls in a little farmhouse in Hydesville, New or Eight. Hey, folks, it's Aaron here. I hope today's interview helped you deepen your understanding of everything involved in the world of spiritualism. But we're not done yet.

We have more interviews to share with you, so stick around after this brief sponsor break to hear a preview of next week's interview. Next time on un Obscured. The kind of spiritualism that a woman like Victoria Woodhall would practice as she traveled around the country was a much more basic kind of almost like a advice columnists that you might have in a newspaper today. She would set up in a hotel and she didn't have seances per se.

She had one on one encounters with people who would come in with maybe physical maladies or problems in their marriage, problems with their children's by financial problems, you know, just the basic things that a person would go to a priest or a therapist or a politician if they so

dared and described their situation and ask for help. These people knew Victoria wasn't equipped to provide them with actual help, but in many cases it was enough for just to have someone to listen to what they had to say, and that in itself was empowering both for them and

for her. For spiritualists, that kind of conversation, you can imagine after a few years, the experience they would build, you know, and the kind of advice that they could then offer, and how it became very social and very political because they knew so many people were suffering from the same problem. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Mankey and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane

in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this season is all the work of my right hand man Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad Lawson composed the brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material and links to our other shows over at History unobscured dot com and until next time, thanks for listening Unobscured as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Monkey.

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