S2 – INTERVIEW 3: Emily Clark

in New Orleans. She sat down to talk with researcher Carl Nellis about this fascinating circle of spiritualists and what their story tells us about spiritualism in America. But their conversation didn't stop there. Her deep understanding of spiritualism was invaluable for putting our story together, and we're so glad she could join us. We begin with her perspective on what it meant to be a spiritualist in nineteenth century America. This is the Unobscured interview series for season two. I'm

Aaron Manky. To be a spiritualist meant that you one of the central things guiding your understanding of the religious and spiritual world was a belief in a spirit world beyond this material, earthly one. Uh. And additionally that communication with spirits in that world was possible um, and not just possible, but was something that you know, if you could do, you should do. Um. Spiritualism was completely compatible

with various forms of Christianity, especially liberal Protestantism. You'd find in lots of Unitarians, Anglicans, Congregationalists who were also spiritualists. And for many spiritualists, God and Jesus resided in the spirit world. Um. In fact, the group I study they received messages from Jesus. Um. The spirit world. It could have heaven, it could have um sort of an understanding of hell for some. For some spiritualists the spirit world

had multiple heavens or multiple hells. Um. But I think the thing that really unites a lot of them together is this belief in a spirit world beyond this one, and that we can communicate with those who were in the spirit world. So there were people from all kinds of especially Christian traditions, who were involved in the practice of spiritualism. Um. What kinds of things were people looking for when they attended a spiritualist seyance beyond what they

were getting from their religious traditions already answers. People went to a seance for answers um. For many of them, it was answers about the nature of reality um, the nature of the material world, the spirit world, the relationship between the material world and the world beyond this one. Um. You know, answers for answers for questions that Christianity sort of answered, but also for many answered in a way that didn't feel complete. Um. So an understanding of the

world beyond this one. In many cases, people went to sciences for closure. You know, maybe it was shortly after a family member or a friend had died and you know, you wanted to hear from them one last time, or you wanted assurance that wherever you know their entity now was was okay. UM. So seiunds could provide closure. And in a lot of cases, people wanted to say their curiosity UM. For those more casual science goers, spiritualism offered

a really interesting form of leisure activity. You know, how better to spice up a Thursday evening than going to a seance UM. And you know, maybe something really interesting and exciting will happen. So for some people it was about curiosity, um, and for some people it was to try to debunk supposed Charlatan's. So it could be entertainment, but it could also be, you know, a really deep

spiritual experience. And in that variety of reasons and motivations that someone might come to a science um in conversation with the idea of people who are a part of a religious traation coming. There's also all kinds of people who were involved in scientific investigation or the horizons of scientific knowledge, UM, who were involved at the beginning with spiritualism.

Can you talk a little bit about how in the early eight hundreds mesmerism and related pact this is that we're considered kind of new horizons of applied science of a human mind, of a human person trying to observe and measure what was going on with our bodies and our minds. How did those new horizons of science lay the groundwork for what became spiritualism. So mesmerism um is a great sort of religious spiritual movement idea to put

in conversation with spiritualism. So mesmerism was developed by a German physician, Frand's Antoine mesmer UM. And he writes this absolutely fabulous doctoral dissertation. UM that's throwing around terms like animal magnetism and animal gravity and planetary gravity, and it's just it's an absolutely fabulous read for anyone who has

spare time. UM. And what he ends up coming through is is you know this thing that we call mesmerism, which more or less argues that there were invisible fluids coursing through the bodies of humans, connecting them to a larger world around them. UM. And that good health, you know, physical health, mental health, emotional health, spiritual health. Good health was the result of keeping those fluids in harmony. UM. So accessing and manipulating these fluids UM, both mesmerists but

also spirits could affect and influence people's bodies UM. And magnetizers that's what mesmerists would call those who could manipulate the fluids. Magnetizers could use the powers of their minds to harmonize the fluids and others. UH. A number of spiritualists would first go into a mesmeric trance before communicating

with spirits. A number of spiritualists done it UM. But either way, mesmerism really paved the way for spiritualism by offering this understanding of invisible spiritual forces that connected us to the world around us, and more importantly, that we could tap into those spiritual for says, and there were other invisible forces being harnessed and tapped in, controlled and manipulated. Uh in the mid nineteenth century, right with things like

the telegraph and with new applications of electricity. Can you talk a little bit about the way that in early spiritualism there was kind of this conversation between religious discourses and science and technologies like the telegraph that all fed into what it meant to be a medium. Oh yeah, so spiritualists were incredibly interested in technology. UM. Technology was a way of showing legitimacy. Many spirituals understood the communication process with the spirit world to be akin to electricity

or the telegraph UM. The beloved spiritualist theologian Andrew Jackson Davis, nicknamed the Poughkeepsie Seer because he's from Poughkeepsie, UM and upstate New York, regularly talked about the spiritual telegraph um and used use the the understanding of the telegraph to explain either, you know, it's totally possible that messages can

be communicated without us seeing it happening. Um. You know, when a message is going through a telegraph wire, you don't necessarily know that you know it's it's it's happening without you being aware or being able to notice that something's happening. And spiritualism can be the same way. Messages can be communicated through these unseen but very powerful forces that you know, scientifically we can measure and spiritually we can measure. Um. It wasn't just things like the telegraph

and electricity. There is this absolutely fabulous chemist uh turned spiritualist, Robert Hare, who invented these fantastic um machines that he called spiritoscopes, which would be used by a medium and they would have all of these dials UM, and wheels and pulleys and some names on the dials would letters and numbers, and through the communication of a spirit, a medium would manipulate this machine and they wouldn't be able to see what the message was saying, which was proof

because the messages being not only mediated through the medium but also through the machine. Like it's this is a way of saying, there's no fraud here. They're just doing as the spirit wills them. UM. And so you know, machines like that could help UM show the legitimacy of

spiritualism photography too. As photography really takes off in the eighteen fifties, you've got the development of what gets photography, which is UM people taking photographs during seances or um after trying to call forth a spirit, and you would get these really eerie photographs with sort of these disembodied very UM kind of light figures in photographs UM that many people get exposed as fraud in what they're doing

is double exposure to some film. Uh, there's the whole scandal of William Mummler who's making tons of money off of fake spirit photography. And then you've got planned shots and Weuiji boards coming later. So there's always this interest in UM the way in which technology where whether it's simple machines or something more complicated like how electricity works. Spiritualists are engaging with that world and you know, using

it to help facilitate conversation with the spirit world. And those are some of the high tech kind of solutions of the day. UM. There are some other aspects of spiritualist material culture that play large roles in some turning points in spiritualist history. Can you talk a little bit about the spirit cabinet and how that functioned in seances. Spirit cabinets were fascinating. Um. They could be these fantastic

pieces of equipment or really really simple. Um. So some spirit cabinets, especially the ones that you would see in public seances, were like these edited furniture wardrobes um that might have a seat or a bench inside for the medium to sit. UM. So imagine you know a wardrobe that's sort of empty on the inside, with the exception of this little seat for the medium to sit. Often the medium would be tied up um to prove that, you know, sounds or manifested spirits were clearly not them

duping the people because they were tied up um. For example, the Davenport brothers, the famous Davenport brothers, William and Ira, had this large cabinet in which both of them would be bound, and then the audience would hear musical instruments being played um after they were closed in the cabinets. They're even tests to prove that they weren't playing the

instruments themselves. One one of their tours, I think it was in Ireland, someone put blue paint on their hands um and then expected, you know, to find all these blue handprints all over the trumpets and the trombones um, and there was nothing. Or other people would sprinkle flower on their laps um and so you know, the idea was, you know, it would be very obvious if they had moved,

because there would be flower everywhere. UM. And at the end of the seance, you know, they would open the cabinet and they're still they're all tied up UM with the flower being intact, or you know, the blue paint isn't everywhere. In other cases, spirit cabinets were really simple UM. In homes. Sometimes people would refer to their spirit cabinet when really it was just a curtain pulled across the

dead corner of a parlor UM. And so sometimes these would be called spirit curtains, but they would frequently get referred to a spirit cabinets, and they were super common. Materialization seances UM, which were increasingly in the nineteenth century quite popular UM. At the at home seance, where a materialization spirit or a materialization seance, you would have people interact in some cases with the material body of a

spirit that would emerge. So you'd find these descriptions um, from people who are at a materialization seance, and they might notice by their feet what looks like a small white handkerchief has appeared, and very slowly the handkerchief grows and it turns into something bigger and bigger and bigger. And the next thing you know, the spirit of your deceased wife has materialized right next to you. UM. And then she hugs you, or she kisses you, she grabs you.

You can feel her material body. There's so many reports of these recently, UM, these widowers whose wives had recently died, and they interact with their wife at a materialization seance at someone's spirit cabinet in their home. You would also have a materialization seance is sometimes the spirit giving gifts. UM. There was this one, this one medium who frequently would call forth this spirit that she called Katie, and Katie would give plants and flowers to people, UM that they

could then take home. M hm. And so let's with all these kind of pieces in place, some religion, some technology, some science. Uh, some of the practices of what happened in the science. UM, let's start talking a little bit about some social context. UM. Spiritualism became a global movement fairly quickly, and the Catholic Church in France and Spain cracked down on spiritualism. Uh. There even uh some some

accounts of spiritualist books being burned and that kind of thing. Um, do you have any comments on what made spiritualism is kind of distinctive set of beliefs and practices attractive outside of America where it began, for instance, in France or in the Caribbean, some of those cultures that were interacting with the people that you write about in your book. Yeah, so there was something very countercultural about spiritualism, especially in any place that had a history of church and state

being connected. Um. So, you know, spiritual them really issues denominational institutional structure. While there were some attempts in places to make you know, churches of spiritualism or a denomination of spiritualism, it really sort of, um, it's practiced in a way that works against that that kind of formalization. So especially in a place like um, Great Britain, where there's a lot of spiritualists, or even in France, these countries that have a much longer history of church and

state being connected. Here you've got this this new countercultural religious movement that doesn't seem to fit in any neat little container or church. You know, it's hard to categorize exactly what's being um done and what's going on because there's not a formal hierarchy. There's not a formal structure that you can interrogate. Um. So in that way, spiritualism really democratized religious authority in a completely new way. So many women were mediums, and you know, God for a

big women have religious authority. UM. People who weren't white, uh, could become mediums, and so you've got spiritual power in the hands of the bodies of marginalized identities. This made incredibly powerful for the people and thus pretty dangerous for the state. Mm hmm. And that was not at all

lost on early spiritualists or observers of spiritualism. UM. From very early on, spirits like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington, William Penn another American states when we're appearing at say on circles in America and you know, speaking through translectors and sometimes uh, maybe just addressing one or two people in a home. Science UM. The Fox sisters in the posts spread at the beginning, we're talking with you know,

the founding fathers. Um, can you talk about a little bit about how those kinds of engagements with political ideas and in particular statesmen and historical figure years, what they say about spiritualism's relationship to history. So, I think, for one, it tells us that spiritualists had a very keen sense of history. You know. Obviously they were very well educated. They had read about these figures, they had read the

writings of these figures. But I think the thing that really strikes me about the appearance of people like Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, William Penn, all these other important political figures, it stands is what really strikes me is that by communicating with famous spirits, spiritualists inserted themselves into history. You know, they were in conversation then with Franklin, with Washington, with Penn,

they were in conversation with their ideas. Um. They were receiving information direct from the source, even if that source had died decades centuries before Um. So spiritualists could become part of that story. They could become part of that story of human progress, even if it was just a small group that maybe no one would ever hear of them.

You know, Benjamin Franklin knew who they were, or the spirit of Benjamin Franklin knew who they were, and so they got to feel like they were part of something so much bigger than themselves. M and as spiritualists right from the get go late fourteen, late eighteen forties, early eighteen fifties, as they did insert themselves into these histories and into conversations and discourses in the church, in science, Um, what were some of the early responses to spiritualism? How

did how did historians? How did politicians? How did churchmen or other believers respond to these insertions of spiritualisms and spiritualists into their stories? So I guess the easy the easy answers. It varied UM with its association with things like liberal politics. You know, so many a lot of the mediums, especially in the US on the East Coast, were women, who received a lot of messages that had to do with UM, women's rights, received a lot of

messages that had to do with abolition. So, with its association with liberal politics, spiritualism was banned in some places. UH. Southern states like Alabama actually tried to make spiritualism illegal UM by taking religious authority away from formal church structures, and you know, the the traditional purveyors of religious authority, you know, more or less white educated men, white educated

um in seminaries men. By taking religious authority away from UM these more formal structures and placing it in the bodies the hands of mediums themselves. I mean, there were a lot of churches really didn't like about spiritualism. They could see it as a dangerous threat. There were a number of ministers who worried that spiritualism was dangerous because

perhaps it was encouraging interaction with demonic spirits. UM. There was some liberal Protestant communities and liberal political communities, UM, especially in the Northeast, that found that spiritualism could be compatible with their politics, UM, with their theology. That you know, why not have spirits like Jesus also up there. Why why wouldn't the spirit of you know, assassinated President Abraham

Lincoln continue to share his political ideas with us. UM. But then you also have those who saw it as just so so dangerous. UM. So there's this great article in America, a Catholic Jesuit publication that's still around today, that came out and I think it was the early nineteen hundreds and it it said that spiritualism and weuiji boards were dangerous because spirits in heaven would have so many other things to do then communicate with people through

a board game. You know this, this priest is writing like, come on, I mean, spirits in heaven, they they got so many other things to do, dancing around on clouds. They're not going to commune keeps people through a board game. And so the only spirits that are probably interacting with

people through these boards are hellish spirits. Um. And what I just think is funny, as I imagined the priest who wrote that article would be so pleased with the movie The Exorcist, which you know auiji board invites the demonic possession and then a priest saves the day. Um. So, even in there there were exceptions to this. Um. So, the Catholic Church in New Orleans in the eighteen forties UM for a little while was actually totally okay with

the development of this mesmerist society. There's this mesmerism idea that begins in New Orleans and a couple of local priests were actually members, and they would sometimes recommend mesmeric healings to some of their personers who weren't doing well the leader get told that they need to stop doing that.

And they were a small minority anyways. But even in a setting like the Catholic Church, which is seeing spiritualism, seeing mesmerism as a credibly dangerous there are actual Catholics in some cases even Catholic clerics who are like, I don't know, there might actually be something to this. H And it wasn't just the church responding, like you said,

the state of Alabama at one point banded spiritualism. What are the kinds of responses were spiritualists getting, maybe like in the southern press or you know, kind of in general discourses through the South around New Orleans, But in the other states, what were people saying about spiritualism. So one of the really interesting places, um where spiritualism gets talked about in Louisiana and the broader Gulf region is

the the secular New Orleans papers. UM. So, papers like the Daily Pickyune and the Daily Pickyune regularly advertised spiritualist lectures UM. You would find all the time in the you know, the calendar provided by the paper upcoming lectures um, which were actually pretty common in eighteen fifties through the eighteen fifties, tons of people are coming to New Orleans

to talk about spiritualism. You also find articles in the secular papers about the alleged medicinal value of mesmerism and spiritualism. But you can also find a lot of stories that are trying to expose um mesmerism or spiritualism. UM. There's a number of stories that are trying to expose it as a wag which is just a nineteenth century term for fraud. That you know, spiritualism is a total wag UM.

And so you have a variety of responses just coming in people's newspapers which sort of left it up to the reader what they wanted to conclude about spiritualism. Now, if all you read was the UM official Catholic newspaper, you would think spiritualism was, you know, basically the devil on earth UM. But if you were just reading the secular paper, you would see a variety of responses about it MHM. What led to something like a whole state outlying the practice. What that ends up coming down to

is the association of spiritualism with liberal politics. So, especially since so many spiritualists coming out of the East Coast, are pretty outspoken about abolition, are pretty outspoken about women's rights. Um. You even have a number of spiritualists who are communicating with the spirits of deceased Native Americans and the receiving messages that acknowledge the fact that we white Americans have stolen land and we have dispossessed them of not just

their land but also their culture. UM. Now it's important to note that a lot of those messages are also pretty tinged with racism, because the medium is talking in at times guttural sounds. Um. But there's this very interesting acknowledgement of the fact that America is not fair when it comes to all of the inhabitants of the country.

And so, if you've got a religious practice that is frequently identifying injustices, and you're in a state that is making a lot of money off of injustice, namely slavery, spiritual um is going to be persona non grata there. So let's move to the community that you focus your book on and go to New Orleans in the forties and the fifties. Can you tell us about the Afro Creole community and the spiritualist group that grew up in

that community in those early years of spiritualism. Yeah, so New Orleans in the eighteen fifties was full of life. I mean, this is a place that is racially an ethnical, ethnically diverse, with its history as a French colony, than a Spanish colony, than briefly a French colony again before being purchased by the United States. It is a center

of cultural exchange. It's a place of cultural innovation. Just look at the food traditions, UM, with all the cultural blending and the significant influence of African diasporic culture and things like gumbo. UM. It was a progressive place with

a very large free black population. Under Spanish rule. UM, there were very lax manumission laws, and so the population of free black men and women in New Orleans grows incredibly fast and quickly, and it is one of the um the sites of one of the biggest populations of UM free black men and women in North America. UM. But also with that, it's a very violent place. It had been home to the Deep South's largest slave market. So the city has a lot of tensions because of

all of that diversity. UM. In some cases, certain streets were basically dividing lines between different ethnic populations in the

nineteenth century. So you'll hear New Orleanans or two Lane talking about things like the neutral ground, which typically just refers to the grassy median on the city's boulevards, especially along street car lines, But originally the term neutral ground referred to the medium of Canal Street that was basically the dividing line between what was known as the American District of the city where a lot of the new

Um Anglo American arrivals to the city we're living. It's now the Central Business District, an old Creole part of town, what we now call the French Quarters. You've got you've got a lot of tension going on with all of this racial and ethnic diversity, and so kind of in the heart of all of that, you've got the city's Afro Creol community, which was it is a vibrant one

in large part because of all this history. Uh. These were families that typically had a mixed background African, French, Spanish, Haitian, Native American UM. They were often educated in large part because of that longer history of freedom UM. But at the same time you would have some Afro Creol families who would still have some members who were enslaved that they might be trying to, you know, save up the

money to purchase that family member's freedom. H There were a few members of the Sir Harmonique whose fathers owned slaves. No members of the group I looked at UM owned slaves, but they had fathers and grandfathers who owned slaves, sometimes extended family members. UM. The Afro Creol community was aflic They were incredibly Catholic. The Catholic Church offered a a sense of home and family UM for New Orleans black and mixed race population starting in the eighteenth century UM,

back when the church was a little more liberal. There in its earlier days, there were all these rules about how priests were not supposed to baptize UM children born out of wedlock. Well, when you think about slavery, one of slavery's goals is to tear down families and make it impossible to have a family. UM. These priests would often baptize kids that they technically weren't supposed to because

they were trying to help rebuild a sense of family. UM. So many an Afro Creole community were very very Catholic, and so there's this way in which they very much belonged to New Orleans. They reflect and represent so much of all of that racial and ethnic diversity, but they also didn't belong. Um. Many historians talk of the Afro Creol community as one that was between the racialized categories

of white and slave. Neither of those categories really described them, though elements of each category might mhm in in this city so rich with life, but riven with these conflicts. Um, you talk about the circle Manique rising up, and you describe how it comes together around the work of a medium named JB. Valmore and a man named Henri Ray who becomes a medium in his own right. Who were Valmore and Henri Ray? So? JB. Valmore and Rie Louis Ray were two members of the Afro Creole community with

a pretty extensive network within the Afro Creol community. So Valmore was a blacksmith and a well known healer. His home was also his blacksmith shop was also his say on meeting location. UM. He kept his seances public too, which made him a bit of a target. The police rated at least one of his seances on charge that he was practicing voodoo. But he also made friends in high places. He UM. In the eighteen fifties, he heals

this Italian bishop who was traveling through the city. This bishop had seen the finest doctors in Europe and none of them could cure him. This bishop had completely lost his voice, and through just simple laying on of hands, Balmore cured him. UM. So Baltmore is kind of the center of for the Afro Creole practice of spiritualism. He's at the center of it for the earlier part of its history. UM. He died in nineteen sixty nine before

the Sir Carmonique, the group I look at reached their heyday. UM. In fact, about a month before he died, the group received a message which Valmore took to be a prophecy about his death UM. And after he died, his spirit began to communicate with the group. So he remains a leader from the other side, and his leadership from the spirit world actually reveals a lot of really interesting social things about the Sir Carminique. Apparently, Valmore and Henri disagreed

on whether or not the seances should be public. Valmore's republic um and Henri apparently didn't agree with that. After Valmore dies his spirit delivers messages that more or less say, yeah, I think you're right, we should probably keep these private. UM. And I just find it really interesting how after Valmore dies he now agrees with those who are still alive. UM. So the man he's agreeing with is Henri louis Ri. Uh on Re is the son of Haitian refugees. He's educated.

He serves a term in the Louisiana Legislature during the tenure of the Sir Carminique Um. He's a husband, he's a father. He was a soldier during the Civil War, and his parents are really well connected in the city's Afro Creol community. Um. His father, bartholomy Um is a pretty important guy. He serves on a really important school board, which may not sound like a big deal, but the school board was for the first free school for the city's black population. It was supported by an Afro Creol

Catholic board. Um and some of the city's most beloved writers thinkers served on the school Boarder taught in the school. Unlike his father, though on Re would leave Catholicism behind. Um. His seance records reveal so many messages about the greed

and the vanity of Catholicism and its priests. Uh. In fact, he gets this really at least me funny message this one day from the spirit of a French revolutionary priest, Hugh Felicity, the laman A who tells Henri, Yeah, I know your wife, Adele is wanting your son to be raised in the Catholic Church. And I know you're concerned about that, but don't worry. Your son is going to laugh at the absurdities of the church and it's gonna

be fine, and he's going to follow your path. So both of Almore and Henri are well known in the Afro Creole community, either because of their own status as a healer or because of their familial connections. Um and so they they're really good guides for us working through you know, this very tumultualist, tumultualist time of reconstruction New Orleans. And you mentioned that one of the grounds for rating

about Marseillance was a charge of practicing voodoo. Can can you talk a little bit about the religious life of New Orleans and the Antebello years, what aspects of it were maybe racialized or criminalized. When we when we think about kind of occult New Orleans. Maybe we do think of Voodoo and Marie Va Vow and some of those

figures who've stuck around in our public consciousness. UM. Can you describe that kind of religious life of New Orleans maybe through ray H and his his connection to sisters of the Holy Family, and what the social status of these groups that his family was a part of. Um. What it was like for for for Black, for Afro Creole, for white New Orleanians. So the religious world of nineteenth century New Orleans is a diverse one. UM. So obviously you've got Voodoo and Marina and Marie Levo who are

a huge part of the occulton nineteenth century New Orleans. UM. The woman known as Marie Levo was actually two women, mother and a daughter, which is why she, you know, shockingly lives for almost a hundred years, because it's actually two women. UM. Voodoo wise, it is a religion with really old the roots leading to Africa. It's similar but different from the voodoo practice in Haiti and in the nineteenth century, it was different from what most people think

of when they hear the term voodoo today. When you hear the term voodoo today, people think of just nothing but voodoo dolls, which actually, we're not really much of a thing. Um in nineteenth century voodoo. Voodoo had a cosmology and a pantheon of spirits with both African and Catholic influence, UM, but it wasn't an institutionalized religion. It didn't have you know, a formal institution, hierarchy, whatnot. So it holds that in common with spiritualism, and it's actually,

it's me really interesting that voodoo develops. But it's also not surprising that voodoo develops um in part because it was illegal for so much of its history. UM. Under French colonial rule, Catholicism was the only legally allowed religion. But you also had the development of voodoo. You also had a piety of African religious traditions being practiced throughout the Gulf. Throughout Louisiana. Uh Congo Square now Louis Armstrong Park was well known for its weekend African music and dancing.

So even with you know this law that states that everyone needs to be converted to Catholicism, the religious world of Black New Orleanans is a diverse one with a lot of spiritual alternatives. And even within Catholicism, Black New Orleanians didn't always find a welcoming home. Um. Some priests were more politically and socially progressive than others. Um. Most

white Catholics were fine worshiping alongside Black Catholics. There's a lot of tourists and visitors to New Orleans and the Antebellum period who write a lot about how surprised they were to see, you know, places like St. Louis Cathedral being completely into grated and you've got white personers sitting next to black parishioners. So it's a Catholicism is integrated.

But that doesn't mean that it was always welcoming. Um. So like you weren't supposed to baptize children born outside of marriage, um, but some priests did, which would endear them to the black Catholic population. Um. But you know, there were a lot of places in the Catholic Church that were closed off to black Catholics. So, for example, mixed race women were not allowed to join the local orders of women religious nuns or sisters. UM. So actually

a group of Catholic women founded their own order. UM. This was the Sisters of the Holy Family, an active community of women religious still today. The group took their initial vows in the Antebellum period, but they were denied

the right to wear a habit for thirty years. And that might sound like a small thing, not being able to wear a habit, But by wearing a habit, you know, America and culture had long denied black women the right to respectability, and by wearing a habit, it marked the wearer as a good woman of God and was a good critique to that denial of respectability. Now the bishop who didn't let the Sisters of the Holy Family wear a habit for thirty years, um was this this bishop

named Napoleon Parchet. And Parche didn't only have some issues some runnings with the Sisters of the Holy Family. He also hated spiritualism. Uh. He wrote a number of editorials in the New Orleans Catholic paper that were all about the dangers of spiritualism. And so there's this interesting way in which Bishop Parche wanted to be the sole religious

authority in town. He was wary of any black citizens gaining spiritual power, be it through his own church with the Sisters of the Holy Family, or be it through communication with the spirits through spiritualism. So let's jump to um. When Bartholom May dies. Can you describe the encounter that that Ari has with his father's spirit that kind of shocked him out of his previous opinion of spiritualism, which was a little bit, a little bit of mockery, a

little bit of dismissal. But then he has this encounter that makes him want to seek out a spiritualist medium. Can you describe that for us? Yeah? So, um on Re, I find it hilarious that on Ri was originally really skeptical of spiritualism. Um. And he writes about this in this really long, like twenty page long autobiographical essay that he put in one of the seance record books, where

he talks about his own history with spiritualism. He talks about a couple of his siblings also dabbling in a little bit, and sort of the prolog before that powerful experience is in eighteen fifty two, his father dies. Here's just twenty one or two years old, and just an hour after Bartholomy's death, and re sees his father's spirit and he goes to embrace him, and just as that happens,

the spirit disappears, and Henri chocks this up to grief. Um. Later on, his father's spirit would reference this experience at the seance table to sort of remind on re you've known for a long time about the presence of spirits. So he has that experience when he's twenty one. He kind of chalks it up to grieving and remains skeptical of spiritualism despite that, and despite apparently in his essay he talks about how he successfully levitated a table one

day and he's like, I don't know, I'm still not convinced. Um. He goes to a seance and he mocks it, but the spirits have a sense of humor. UM. So Henri puts his hand down on the table and he says in a mocking way, I'm a medium, and a spirit shakes him and that sort of wakes him up. He later identifies the spirit as um, the spirit of his

deceased father in law, UM, and he's like, WHOA. So he seeks out a local um spiritualists woman by the name of Sister Louise and attends some training with her, gets some guidance with her, and at his first meeting with Louise, he just writes and writes and writes and writes and rites, all under the powerful influence of spirits. And as he starts to get tired, I mean, we don't do a lot of handwriting anymore. We're always on our computers. But handwriting pages and pages and pages, you know,

your your arm gets tired. Um, he gets begins, he begins to get tired. In the spirit of his father, Bartholomy comes to him and assures him, you know, you can keep writing. You're not really tired. Me and the other spirits will sustain you. And so it's sort of this progression of experiences that convinced him. And then the really funny thing is his wife goes through the exact same experience. She's pretty skeptical at first. Um Adele Rose um three. She was from the Crocker family, which is

also pretty well connected in religious life. It's possible that her father was um. It's possible that her father kept a mistress, that mistress being Marie Levo Um. But Adele Rose so she's you know, seeing her husband develop all of these um abilities of a medium. He's a clairvoyant, you know, he sees spirits all the time, including on their you know, uh, their front porch. But she's still

not convinced herself. And then this one evening they're laying in bed and you know, he's trying to talk to her about spiritualism and convince her, and he says, okay, you know, if there's a spirit in the room, knock somewhere, and shortly after that they feel this loud thump on their headboard, and on returns to Adele and says, do

you believe in spiritualism now? And all of this is cataloged in this long autobiographical essay that he wrote um and so you get this like it wasn't an easy conversion to spiritualism for him, you know, he had to

be convinced. M On JB. Valdor's side, there is a really dramatic story that you tell in the book when the spiritualist who's becoming better and better known originally from London and then came to New York as an actress and then became active in spiritualist circles and started touring Emma Harding who would later be Ema Harding Britain. She comes on the Southern tour and arrives in New Orleans and gives a salience and has an encounter with J.

B Abolt Moore. Can you describe that encounter for us? Oh? Yeah, that encounters great. Um. So in the late Antebellum period, famous spiritualist Emma Harding Britain, she's delivering a lecture in New Orleans at one of the Fraternal Lodges. She's one of the most well known spiritualists of the nineteenth century. Um. Her name pops up quite a bit in the local paper advertising some of the other lectures that she's given. I can't remember this is her first lecture in town

or one of the later ones. Um. But she comes to New Orleans more than a few times. She writes this huge encyclopedic book on spiritualism in the eighteen seventies, which is honestly one of our best resources on the practice because it contains all these letters and reports from all around the country. So anyway, she's delivering this lecture in eighteen fifty nine or so, and she begins to

get tired. Um. Now, she'd been lecturing on spiritualism and demonstrating for a while now, and UM, you know, I can tell you, as a college for fessor, lecturing is more tiring than people might think, especially if you've got a performative element to it. So she's tiring and her spiritualist demonstrations are suffering. As this is going on, a black creole man was walking by and he's supposedly seized

by a spiritual force that pulls him into the auditorium. Uh. Emma invites him to come up on the stage, as she says, because he is full of electricity. Um. And this black creole man is Valmore and he and Emma Harding have the spiritual affinity, it seemed. So he remains with her on stage and she uses that connection between them to draw power and she continues these demonstrations for a couple more hours, just leaving the audience enthralled. So for a lot of people like this isn't a big

surprise for them. Um. You know, this was a guy who was a pretty well known healer, who was known for being a bit of an expert in these alternative religious practices. Um. And you know it certainly isn't surprising those who end up becoming involved with the Sir Carminique. In one of their sands record books, there is this little not really a notepad, but it's a couple of pieces of scrap paper that describes some of the curative practices of Balmore, um, some of the cures that he

would use. So for many it was just sort of like, well, obviously he could do that, Obviously he could be her battery. And so what are the events that lead up to the formation of the Circumbinique with Valmore and with Ree and with the other people that they brought together to form this group. So there were some other spiritualists in

New Orleans at the time. There were white Creole who are practicing spiritualism, who are doing their own thing that are pretty separate from the Sir Carminique, the Afro Creal spiritualists.

Valmore sort of goes between the two groups a little bit. Um. It seems like what brings the Sir Carminique originally together and it's kind of not clear who all is a member at what time, UM, but it seems like on reason conversion and sort of this famous interaction between Valmore and Emma Harding sort of galvanized a small group of Afro Creole men to start practicing, um to getting to get together, hold seances and have through that process. Um,

these really rich, politically infused conversations about the world. And you mentioned that in that early Sunds with Sister Louise or really starts writing and writing and writing. Can you talk about the way that receiving those messages through writing was really significant for the circumnique. So the Sir Carminique, over the course of their roughly twenty years of practice,

bill something like thirty five or thirty seven books with messages. Um. If you stack all of the Sciunce record books up, um, it reaches around my rib cage. And I'm not overly short. I'm not super tall, but I'm not that short. Um. So we're talking thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of messages from the world beyond this one, and writing all of that out takes time, and so the process of writing all of that out is clearly

very important. Um, there's a way in which the spirits messages don't become really real and tell they're written down and tell there's a material record of them that can then later be consulted and referred to. But there's something very important about that process of cataloging what the spirits had to say, And in part, the spirits tell them that there are a number of messages where the spirits say, write all of this down. Uh, so you know, okay, Chief,

we will. And in terms of the message that was being communicated, one of the things that you emphasize in your book is that so many of these figures were the spirits that we're appearing. We're giving the messages about what they came to call the idea, which was politically charged and inspiration motivate shan really addressing the social and political world of the carmonique. What was the idea to

this group of spiritualists. So what they would call the idea was a concept that their messages never straightforwardly defined, but it's referenced frequently, and that element alone is really significant. The fact that they didn't need to ever define it meant that it was very clear to everybody involved what the idea was. So they received so many messages that made mention of the idea, and when you put all these together, it becomes clear that this was a concept

that meant humanitarian progress, brotherhood, egalitarianism, equality, harmony, UM. It was similar to some other ideas that are going around nineteenth century America, UM ideas of millennial progress, This desire to build the Kingdom of God here on earth in the US. Um, the idea, the idea would require work, um, you know, to make the idea of reality on earth would would not just happen. Um. The triumph of the

idea would require free thought, democracy, equality, um. You know, the progressive march of humanity is not going to happen on its own. And the idea, the idea could be trusted. The idea was what structured the spirit world and thus should be the foundation of our own. It was, as one spirit called it, a blazing torch um. You know, it's light, it's luminous um. For example, a few spirits describe the Emancipation Proclamation as a manifestation of the idea

on earth. Um. And so it's it's an idea that comes from the spirit world, and it's an idea that needs to become manifest here in our world. Yeah, so through something like the idea, And you talked about how this was similar to other concepts or movements in progressive discourse. We end up with the debates over the expansion of slave power and the conflict leading up to the Civil War.

When when the Civil War breaks out, you talk about how the sir Carminique broke up for a time kind of Uh, what was a redoing during the war and what was it that convinced them that they couldn't keep meeting. Yeah, So the very first book of the Sir Carmonique Science Records covers four years UM and actually no, it covers like five years in part because you've got on res

service the Civil War UM breaking it up. So Ri and his brother Octave Uh and others many other Afro Creole men in the city joined the war effort UM, but Untel New Orleans was seized by the Union in eighteen sixty two. When they joined the Louisiana Native Guards the Black regimen for the city, they had to muster for the Confederacy, which was not what they wanted. They joined the war effort because they felt strongly about defending

their home UM, but they disobeyed the Confederacy's orders. As the Union was approaching the city UM in eighteen sixty two, the Confederacy orders all of the troops out and the Black troops stay. Uh. They disobey, and they want to stay with their homes and protect their homes and protect their families. UM. A committee of four in the Louisiana Native Guards, including on Ri and his brother Octave, were the group that surrendered their weapons to the Union when

the Union comes into New Orleans. But then they quickly got them back because now they were able to serve on the side. Wanted to unreserved in the Union Army until he was discharged due to illness in eighteen sixty three. He's discharged before one of the big battles um in terms of the action that the Louisiana Native Guards saw,

which was the battle at Port Hudson Um. While he was serving in the army, on RhE and others didn't seem to keep much in terms of spiritualist records, but it seems pretty clear that on Re at least practice some AH. He received a message while at Camp Strong that he later transcribed in his records. It's a message that he gets in eighteen sixty two from the spirit of French revolutionary priest Hugh Felicite de Laminae, who more or less tells them, you know, like keeping the struggle AH.

He also publishes a poem in the local liberal newspaper in sixty two while he's serving in the army, and this poem sounds so so so much like the science records Um and the poem he commends a number of figures Jesus, Um, the theologian, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Joan of Arc. These are all figures that come up in the Science records,

either as spirit to appear or figures to admire. And the poem heralded all the ideals that the sort of carmenique in the spirits held, dear liberty, peace, progress, fraternity. So while there's not a lot of formal messages being received, there's these couple little things going on and on Ree's world, um, his immediate world, during his time in the Union Army, that would indicate that spiritualism is never out of his mind.

And I read that Colonel Daniels, who was a white officer put in charge of the Native Guards, in his reports and in his diary, he talks about as a spiritualist, as a great medium Um, And I was fascinated when I found that too, meaning he was practicing. And and there are a couple of times when Colonel Daniels in his diary notes that he sat for a science with Are, which is awesome. So he wasn't meeting with the Sir Carminique.

But clearly he was, as you say, still practicing as a medium and following these spirits and listening to their messages and those kinds of things. That was that was really fascinating to learn. Yeah, I mean there's when you're a spiritualist. You're a spiritualist. You're not only doing this, you know, one or two days a week. This is this is the way you understand the world. Yeah. Um, So you you talked about the Union Army taking New Orleans.

That was under the direction of General Benjamin Butler, and he becomes a major figure for the life in New Orleans under Union Army rule because he's the commanding officer and sets all kinds of policies. Can you talk about who Benjamin Butler was and he did handle the administration of New Orleans. I'm interested in this in part become because he becomes uh it comes back into the story of spiritualism. Later as a political advisor for Victoria wood

Hall in New York. So who he was, what his political thinking was like really influence his spiritualism and a couple of key points here for the strike Harminique and later for Victoria Woodhall. So who was Benjamin Butler and what was life in New Orleans like under his governorship. So General Benjamin Butler is the Union general who oversees New Orleans while it is being um occupied by the

Union as the Civil Wars going on. He serves later in the US Congress, And one's opinion of Butler was very much influenced by one's opinion of the Civil War. And he also made a lot of decisions in New Orleans that also just made him a little unpopular to the locals. Um. Honestly, it kind of seems like he wasn't really cut out for military rule. UM. So his order to enlist black men in the Union army is met with much acclaim. Um. You know, he's seen as

then a friend of the southern black population. But then he didn't really know what to do with escaped enslaved still enslaved men and women who left Louisiana plantations and sought refuge in the Union occupied city. UM. And he describes them as contraband, not people, and so many of them back to where they had just escaped. Um. And his his occupation of the city was described as a scourge uh for white Confederate leaning Uh. Confederate supporting New Orleanans,

they give him the nickname of Beast. He was known as Beast Butler. One of the decisions that made him really unpopular UM with the Confederate loyalist in UM New Orleans was he pas us is this um, this rule that allows him and others in charge to treat any woman who insults a Union soldier as a prostitute. So any woman, any Confederate UM woman who says something disparaging to a Union soldier will now be treated as a woman of loose morals. Um. He also said some really

terrible anti Semitic things about the city's Jewish population. UM. So we should always keep that in mind when thinking about Butler, especially with his later work in the U. S. Congress to pass legislation like the ku Klux Klanak which outlawed the group. So he's he's a complicated figure, UM, and I feel like anyone's opinion of him would change with every decision that man made. And he was followed

in the administration over New Orleans by General Banks. UM. Can you mention or or maybe describe the influence that Banks had on the sixty four Constitutional Convention When Ah they were trying to figure out under what laws and under what policies New Orleans would be governed going forward. So the Constitutional Convention of eighteen sixty four was, you know, something that brought a lot of people hope and something

that brought a lot of people disappointment. I mean, it's just in many ways, the constitutional conventions of the eighteen sixties in Louisiana are a hot mess. UM. You've got you've got people obviously hoping for things like, um, the outlawing of slavery to be put into the constitution. UM. And you've got people who are serving that are pretty pretty staunch in support of slavery continuing. UM. You've got throughout the eighteen sixties and seventies dual governments at times

working in the state. UM. So in eighteen sixty four, there's a lot of questions about what exactly is going to be made law, UM, which then impacts who is allowed to vote, who is allowed to serve in UM, the state and in local political governing bodies. UM. You've

got people hooting and hollering during the constitutional convention. UM. And it's not really until the Constitutional Convention of eighteen sixty six that things start to become a little more clear about where the state's constitution is going to end up. And it's it's in the spring of eighteen sixty five that the Confederate Army surrenders at Appomatics and we can his assassinated. Can you talk about the science where the

spirit of Abraham Lincoln first appears to the Sard Carminique. Yeah, so, Abraham Lincoln's first appearance to the Sara Carminique is on December seven, about seven months after his assassination. It wasn't a particularly busy science. Uh, He's not the only spirit who delivers a message. That day. St. Vincent de Paul and a few others also appeared, and he delivers the kind of message that you would expect. He identified that particular day as one of fasting, prayer, and thanksgiving for

post war peace and freedom. He would do stuff like that during his term as president as well, declaring, you know, days of fasting and thanksgiving. His spirit noted how he was glad that they had broken the chains of slavery, but he also recognized that there was a lot of work still to be done. Um, you know, we shouldn't

start patting ourselves on the back just yet. He also talks about how those who tried to stop the progress of freedom would regret those decisions after death, where you know, those who had suffered for righteous causes would be blessed by God and happy in the spirit world. You know, freedom was something that was created and ordained by God.

And while freedom originated in heaven, his spirit talks about how it's intended to reign on earth to UM and then he signs off the message like he does many of them with your brother and friend Abraham Lincoln. M And that idea that there are people opposing because of freedom is not abstract to the companique and two Afro creoles in the black community New Orleans, UM. You describe in your book the Mechanics Institute riot in sixty six.

Can you relay those events to us now and talk a little bit about how that's tied into sixty four Constitutional Convention, but then also how it became kind of a touchstone for the Star Carmonique in the following years. Yeah. So, so the Civil War and reconstruction changes a lot about life in New Orleans, UM. You know, as with the end of the Civil War. UM, you've got a very interesting thing that starts happening in the South, and that

is you have black local and state politicians. Um. You had the long vote over whether or not black men could vote. Um. Which there's this really interesting moment. I think it's in the I can't remember which constitutional convention it's in, but um, black repert senatives who were elected are in the chamber and they're not allowed to vote

because the neo Confederate white politicians aren't letting them vote. Um. And so you've got a little bit of a hullabaloo going on there in the Constitutional convention because you have people who are not being allowed to sit down and you know, do their jobs. Um. But you know, this starts to get settled a little bit. So you've got

black men in the legislative chambers making important decisions. Um. In fact, Louisiana would be the first state to have a black governor when PBS Pinchback took over after Henry Clay Warmuth's impeachment. Henry Clay Warmath is an interesting political figure in New Orleans history. He presents himself as a friend to the New Orleans black population, and then after he's elected, he begins to court favor with former Confederates to try to keep in power. He was just a

really power hungry dude. Um. And so you've got this interesting, hopeful, auspicious feel um of you know, we might actually get get some rights. Um. But with this new political power, white supremacy doesn't go away. It continues really strong, and it continues with violence. UM. In the eighteen sixty six Mechanics Institute riot, which really, historians, we need to just rename this thing a massacre um, is a horrible example

of this. So on July sixty six, a group of primarily black delegates meet to revise the state constitution um because they want to make sure that it definitely includes black male suffrage um. And so this is intended to be a constitutional convention session at the Mechanics Institute. And the day begins with, you know, some fanfare. There's like a little parade um of black New Orleanans marching to the Mechanics and Institute to celebrate this. This is gonna

be a great day, but it's not. It ends up being an absolutely horrid, horrid day because a white mob, aided by local police and firefighters, storm the building and massacre many of the delegates inside UM. Most of the delegates were were unarmed, but that white supremacist mob was heavily armed. Over forty people died that day, almost all

of them black. Three local white allies at the meeting also died that day, including a minister and a local dentist, Dr. A. P. Doasty, who is a well known UM thinker of liberal politics and in violence. That, like the Mechanics Institute right, was not alone. You know, in eighteen seventy four of the Battle of Liberty Place, during which the White League UM, a white supremacist organization takes control of New Orleans and is like cutting telegraph wires and so that messages can't

get out. UM, they slaughter the At that point, integrated police UM kill some people who are just walking by. There's a black carpenter who's killed with his own hatchet UM by white leaguers who are just like marauding through the city. UM. And so the Mechanics Institute violence is

not alone. Also, in the summer of eighteen sixty six, you have the Memphis Massacre, which is just this horrendous white supremacist slaughter of black Memphis citizens and destruction of black owned property UM and violence like this in eighteen sixty six ended up galvanizing a new brand of reconstruction politics nationally, which then worked harder to promote black civil rights. But even those politics are short lived and end in eighteen seventy seven with the close of reconstruction for the

ark Harmonique. The Mechanics Institute riot became an incredibly important event. The martyrs of that day's violence often delivered messages the spirit of one martyr, Victor, and they call themselves martyrs, and other spirits refer to these men who died at the Mechanics Institute martyrs, their martyrs for the idea um. One of these spirits, Victor Lacroix Um, a very well connected Afro Creole man, whose body was mutilated by some of the white mob, and his and his valuables were

stolen watch that he had inherited with stolen. His spirit afterwards noted how their blood, the blood of the martyrs, flooded the streets of New Orleans that day, but that their suffering was not in vain because it prompted a response from the US Congress. Um Another one, Dr A. P. Dosty, that white dentist who supported black suffrage. He delivers a number of messages over the years, many of which recall how he was killed like an animal. His death was

particularly gruesome. The white mob was particularly not happy seeing UM fellow white men supporting black liberty. UM ghosties body is just he's like shot and stabbed, but he doesn't die during the violence. He dies about a week later when they take his um dying body out of the building. UM a police officer sits on his head as his body is taken away, like it's just insult to injury.

Doesn't even come close to describing this. So it's not surprising that doost spirit talks about how he was killed like an animal. UM, but also he reports how he was glad to die for such a righteous cause. On one occasion, even his spirit noted how he would grant forgiveness to the spirits of the perpetrators when they joined the spirit world, and like, that's an interesting thing to think about that, you know, he's he dies in such

a gruesome, gruesome way. And one of the things that his spirit says is that, you know, when the spirits of those who did this to me come to the spirit world, I well grant them forgiveness and I will ask for them to be you know, treated well in the spirit world, because progress needed to include everybody m in. In the years after that Mechanics Institute massacre, this our carminique h held lots of their silences. You mentioned that it even reaches the group reaches Heyda even after Balmer

dies in those years. What what was their corminique science like, what was it like to be there? What do we know about those those seances? Yes, I'll go and warny this is gonna be a long answer. There's a there's a lot to say about trying to figure out a typical sort carmonique science meeting. Um So, as a historian, it's annoying that it's actually impossible to know exactly what a seance was like. Um. I suppose we could hold

a seance and ask on re um. But there's a lot of things that we can figure out from their records. Their records, you know, sadly never give a play by play of how a seance happened. Um But it seems like, especially as they got into a groove, the salances were pretty well organized. Um So you can you know, glean a lot of things from just little things that are

noted in the margins. UM. They have this one um list of rules for the Sir Carmonique UM that give a sense of sort of how these salences are going to go. UM. It seems like they would spend the first part of any meeting preparing for communication with the spirit world. UH. They would read a message or two that they were received at an earlier meeting. UH, they

would discuss that message. And this process of reading previous messages discussing previous messages was intended to create harmony amongst the group. And this is a really common spiritualist idea that in order to successfully communicate with the spirit world, those who are trying to communicate first need to get into a harmonious groove. UM. So you know, it's not surprising that the Sir Harmonique calls themselves what they do sir Carminique is French for harmonic circle and so UM.

You know, you would create harmony, and it was then important to keep that harmony going UM, and so punctuality was very important. There's actually this fabulous message that I adore from one medium's mother who opens her message with something like I thought we had well established that punctuality was important, and I just love it because it's like

mom shames from beyond the grave. UM. The spirit of another member's father admonished him one day because it seemed as he was thinking about ladies during one of the meetings rather than keeping on tasks. So you know, it's not just that you need to establish harmony at the beginning of the meeting, but then you know you've got to keep in tune with each other. UM. The spirits are going to communicate with us best if we're a very receptive um community for them. So once that harmony

was established, you could begin to receive messages. Uh. It seems like sometimes the medium might have been the one who recorded the messages in the seiance records. In their cases, it seems like the medium was clearly the person writing the records was not the medium, but the medium was

relaying what they were told. But this is part of the stuff that's not ever clearly detailed in their seiance records, like so so and so was getting this message, and so and so wrote this down, but they might like make little notes about how this is um by the hand of honree in terms of like who's writing UM. The records themselves are really neat and tidy. There's not

much in the records that looks like automatic writing. There's a couple of pages scattered throughout that look like automatic writing, but I think that's pretty I'm pretty sure that's on Red by himself, not at one of the meetings. UM. The messages are written down on neat and tidy with dates at the top, uh to note what day the message came on, and then at the end of the message it's UM. There's like a sign off from the spirit on the right hand side of the page. They

almost look like letters. UM. Some of these meetings were definitely very, very long. You've got in some cases pages UM recording a specific seance, which you know that takes a long time to hand rite out twenty five pages. UM. You know there's some clear sincerity of belief going on here. You're not going to spend hours doing something that you don't think is true. UM. And so these are long meetings, they're organized meetings. The spirits who appear is a huge

array of people. It includes religious leaders, Jesus Confucius, Franz Mesmer of Mesmerism, Emmanuel Swedenborg, another visionary writer, all appear. It includes political leaders. Former presidents like Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson appear as well as other political figures like John Brown and Daniel Webster. French revolutionary thinkers and actors appear all the time, such as Ropes, Pierre, Montesquieu, Jean

Jacques Rousseau. Figures from the Haitian Revolution to Salt Leopa Tour makes a few appearances. Beloved local Catholic clerics appeared, as well as Saint Vincent de Paul. Spirits who needed to apologize appeared. John Wilkes Booth gives a very brief message once that's basically like I regret it um. Former Confederate leaders, including Robert E. Lee appear and apologize for

their role during the Civil War. The spirit of Napoleon appears a couple of times, and he gives this one great message about how he his spirits not doing that great in the spirit world. He's got a lot to get over before he can progress um. And he talks about how people who thought they were so big on earth find that they are quite small here and considering people love to make jokes about, you know, Napoleon's heightened stature. I just find that really funny that his spirit calls

himself small UM. Other notable spirits like Pocahonas and Mrs Washington appear a few times. Local friends and family appear, local politicians appear UM. Local celebrities for lack of a better term, also appear, such as UM Captain Andre Cayu, a formally enslaved man who died fighting in the Union Army. He has this massive funeral that attracted thou sins of people, and his bravery on the battlefield helped convince naysayers the Black soldiers were courageous fighters. So he appears a few

times and then. Unnamed spirits were also very common UM those who signed their messages your friend, a brother, or just with the letter X. And with such an array of spirits, the messages broached a variety of topics. There were personal ones from family members. These were quite common. Family members wanted to confirm that they were well in the spirit world. Many spirits developed delivered messages that explain

the nature of the spirit world and reality. More generally, they described what happened to a spirit after death, which would help the sur carminique prepare themselves for entering the spirit world, and political messages were very frequent. UM. Messages that discussed the idea and the progress of humanity are all over the records, messages from martyrs, from things like the Mechanics Institute Riot. They almost exclusively delivered political messages.

John Brown never says anything that is not about black liberty. The cornerstones of French revolutionary thought, you know, liberty, allote fraternity run throughout the records. So so so many messages denounced materialism, greed, and desire for power, you know, harmonies of very common theme. UM. And so even when it's not overtly political things, these more subtly political ideas, things like, you know, materialism is something to be avoided, harmony is

something to aspire to. I would say these are a little more subtly political, um, because they're giving some instruction about how society should be, how people should act with one another. These are all over the records. M hm. How strong you mentioned French revolutionary thought. How strong was the influence of French revolutionary thought on And there were other thinkers and writers at the time, like Frederick Douglas who had a kind of big transnational vision for liberty

and freedom, which was evident in The North Star. The kinds of stories he was publishing that we're following radical thought, radical writers at various places around the world. How how kind of global or transnational was the Star Carminique's thinking,

The Sir Carminique thinking was incredibly transnational. Um. French revolutionary thought is hugely influential on them, and they're they're receiving messages from French revolutionary thinkers and writers, and they're receiving messages that are clearly influenced by French revolutionary thinkers and writers.

And it makes sense. Um. You know, the kinds of some of the books that were very popular in New Orleans in the late Antebellum period were books about the French Revolution, were histories of Haiti that included descriptions of the Haitian revolution. Henri himself, you know, as the son of Haitian refugees. Um. They're they're thinking is always very

local but also very global. Um. So there the ideas of the French revolutionaries thinkers are both in their messages and they're visited by spirits of French revolutionaries themselves, like Montesquieu, Rousseau, Robespierre, the Haitian revolutionary leader to sult Labatur, and the idea of these men too, are present in so many of

the Spirit's messages. You know, spiritualism has this great ability to mediate the memory of the French Revolution and its promises for republican society, and that act of mediation offers answers to the politics and violence of post war New Orleans. You know, when we think about the French Revolution, this is a revolution to take power from the land owning elite,

the Asal regime and put it with the people. Um the French Revolution was so much more than the storming of the Bastille in seventeen eighty nine and the guillotine. It sparked a new way of thinking about political systems in the organization of society. You know, spirits referenced things like the Genius of eighty nine, which is a reference to the storming of the Bastille. Many of them will conclude messages with things like vive la libertay, you know,

the very famous battle cry of the French Revolution. And it makes sense that these Francophone ideas would find such resonance with the Sir Harmonique because the cir Harmonique saw themselves as dealing with their own aristocracy. You know, whites who had become powerful from slavery where their own as she all regime to deal with. And as long as that aristocracy ruled, the people couldn't be liberated and no

one would have real equality. So, you know, the Spirit's espouse ideals like living by a social contract, divine friendship, brotherhood. These are ideas that come up in the writings of these French revolutionary thinkers. Um. And in a true republic, the people's voice mattered. Um. It's it's important though, to note that there was some regret to Robespierre's Spirit regrets the terror. You know, he's like, yeah, maybe we spilled

a little too much blood with the guillotine. But he also saw that violence is necessary for the success of the people. Um. And to your point about Frederick Douglas, you know, Frederick Douglas and the Cirque had a lot of similar views. You know, they both viewed slavery as immoral tyranny. They both believed that real religion endorsed love and equality. But it goes deeper than that too. Um. You know, Douglas, in one of his letters to William

Lloyd Garrison. He writes something like, um, as to nation, I belong to none. As to nation, I belong to none, And the circule reminds me of that. You know, because of America's racial hierarchy and relationship to slavery, members of the Cirque had not been allowed to be full citizens, and they received messages that a shoe national identity in favor of humanity in general. Um, there's this great message from the Spirit of George Washington in which he says,

I'm not American, I am of humanity. It's flag is mine. And that coming from the US as first president and an owner of slaves people, you know that holds weight. One's main allegiance should be to humanity and the uplift of human equality. Both the Cirque and Douglas thought, you know, America could be a place of progress, but it will never be with slavery. I'm In that same letter to Garrison, Douglas says something like America will not allow her children

to love her. But the idea that the spirit's dedication of those French revolutionary ideas um of liberty, egalite fraternity. If the idea could take hold in America, we might be able to change it to where America might let her children love her mhm. And when you're talking about Robespierre believing that violence was necessary to achieve republican democracy, Uh, did the Sir Harmonique kind of share that idea about

the Civil War? How did they? How did they think about the Civil War in the in the decades after, when they were going through the throes of reconstruction and the ongoing struggle and violence that kind of continued the war in their local frame? Um, how did they think about the fighting that had been done? So the spirits and the Sir Carminique, they didn't want there to ever be a war. Um. They didn't like violence of any kind. But they also solve the necessity of the Civil war

in order to rid the country of slavery. Slavery was horrid um. And the spirits of both formally enslaved persons and the spirits of former slavers told them this. So in order to in order for the idea to take root in the world, slavery would have to be abolished. And if it required war, then it required war. Um. And after the Civil War, spirits of many who were involved appear. So the spirit of Roberty Lee apologizes for his leadership in the war. And he's not the only

Confederate soldier to do to to do that. A number of Confederate soldiers apologize. UM. The spirits of Union soldiers delivered messages to about how they were continuing the march forward in the world beyond Um. The spirit of Captain Andre Cayu, that formerly enslave New Orleans man who dies on the battlefield of Port Hudson. He said again and again and again how he was glad to have died for the cause. So, while violence should be avoided, fighting

for a just cause was itself justice. M You mentioned kind of at the top of our conversation that there were a number of spiritualist mediums who spoke from you know, claimed to be speaking from Native spirit guides. That there were people from native tribes. Sometimes they were leaders, sometimes they were young girls, you know, and they were saying, Okay, now I'm speaking in the voice of a of a four year old Native girl, and this is what you know,

territorial expansion or massacre she suffered. Um. Did the Sir Carmenique ever received messages from Native spirit gigs they did. The Curuk received a couple of messages from Native American spirits. They receive one or two from Pocahonas, they receive one or two from Montezuma, and they receive a couple from a few other spirits that they come right after a message from Pocahonas. And their names are things like Pacoa, which kind of sounds like an attempt at a Native

American name. What's really interesting is they'll allude to things like monte Zuma has one where he sort of alludes to, you know, the the old days of um. It's just like Barbary. But their messages are actually kind of bland uh, which when compared with some of the white women on the Northeast coast who are almost doing these performances of uh so called Indian squaws, it sort of makes the Sir Carminique's interaction with Native American spirits seemed kind of boring.

M Um. We also talked to the top kind of about in general, what statesmen and political figures appearing in silence is meant for spiritualists and their relationship to the past.

But you've mentioned now all kinds of different figures who spoke to the star harmony in particular, Was there anything that was unique about the way they start harmonique related to these historical figures, whether it's George Washington or I mean, in the case of Henrie h getting a message from Toussaint Levature about, you know, about the French Revolution, thinking about his place in the revolution, all of that would

have taken on a particular charge, right. Um, Is there anything that distinguishes maybe what was going on with the Sir Carminique from the other kinds of general things we could say about spiritualism and its relationship to the past. Yeah, I think, um, I think so. I think the Sir Carminique's own flavor of spiritualism is deeply influenced by where they are and deeply influenced by the kind of society

that they want to build. Um. They're pretty unique in the sense that the spirits taught the Sir Carminique that race didn't exist in the spirit world. Um, one's race only exists with the body. They call the body the material envelope. And this is something you leave behind when you die, you know, It's just something that houses your spirit for its short time on earth. And so when you think about it, then the spirits taught, racial identity

isn't what's important. The value that you have, the value that you have as a spirit that continues on um. So the Sir Carminique is pretty unique in this since that they didn't see race as something that structured the world beyond this one. In fact, the spirit world would be a racial utopia in the sense the racial identity and you know, the hierarchy that comes with it doesn't

exist there Um and spirits reference this a lot. Uh. Confucius spirit affirmed that there's said something like on one occasion, how there's no different races really because we're all children

of the same father. Um. There's another spirit who got pretty theological on this um and he claimed that, you know, if Jesus had been black, or to put it in the spirits um own words, you know, he said that if Jesus had possessed a black envelope meaning body, He said that, you know, Jesus would have been disowned by many people. And what a poignant thing to say. I mean, so many of these white Christians, he was arguing, would deny their own savior if he appeared before them as

a black man. And so the spirits taught that race should not matter, but they also recognized that it did here in the material world, and they lamented that fact. It's sad in them that Americans place so much value on racial identity. UM. In Abraham Lincoln's first spirit message, he he asked the rhetorical question at one point, is it your fault if God created his children with different colors?

And so the practice of this or Carmenique, the their particular interaction with these major political figures, is deeply influenced by the kind of society that they want to build, and by interacting with you know, spirits like US President George Washington, Haitian revolutionary leader to sult ly of a tour radical abolitionist John Brown. You know, they're able to put themselves in part of a long history of progress. You know, the idea progressed and you could track its

progress in history. UM. And the Sir Carminique, I think would have liked to have imagined themselves as a step in that progress. UM. Let me use an idea of the sord harmoniques here. So they understood that spirits UM. After they died, they ascended what they called the ladder of progress Um. The spirit world was organized by the ladder of progress. You continued to learn and become better in the world beyond this one um. So, for example, the spirit of Napoleon shared that he was stuck groaning

at the foot of the ladder of progress. Well, other more luminous spirits were moving along, uh. And one of their record books, there's this little drawing of the ladder of progress tucked in the pages. UM. And as you move up the ladder you see good characteristics develop, things like persistence and patients. And at the top of the ladder is this little drawing that looks a lot like

contemporary images of Jesus. So to use the circus own concept of the ladder of progress um to explain or to think about the particular weight of people like John Brown Intusultan Overtour appearing to them. You know, they believe that humanity writ large was also on a ladder of progress, and figures like John Brown into Sultan Overtour, they helped push humanity along the ladder of progress. And the Sir

Carminique wanted to be a part of that story. They wanted to be one of the wrongs on that big ladder of progress of humanity. That's moved thing us along closer and closer to the idea m the thing that I've been thinking about. You know, we're asking a number of people to talk about spiritualism and gender, gender and power, but I didn't ask you to reflect on gender in the Sircarminique. Um, would you be able to just kind

of off the cuff riff on that a little bit? Yeah, totally. Um. So, I think one of the really interesting things when it comes to gender in the Sircarminique is for monique is composed primarily of Afro Creol men. There's occasionally um female guests, you know, maybe someone's wife, a friend's widow, a sister um at the meeting, but the Sircarminique's core membership is all men um. The overwhelming majority of spirits that they are act with, at least those who are gendered, you know,

the unknown spirits. I guess we can't know their gender, but the overwhelming majority of spirits they interact with our men um, which you know, they're interacting with public figures that they knew, so I guess that's not a big surprise. But there's then sort of this you know, there's on the few occasions that they received messages that you know,

bluntly said something about gender. And this usually had to do with messages that would say something about the proper relationship between men and women, um, which was things like, you know, a couple of messages about how men should take care of women. Uh. They would receive a few messages about how I can't remember who these came from, but they get they get a couple of messages that talk about oh so Jean, the spirit of Jean Jacques Rouche Rousseau tells them that women are not to be

treated as play things. Um. The spirit of Thomas Jefferson also says this, which, considering his rape of Sally Hemmings, is always very interesting. Um. They also get a couple of messages from spirits that talk about how women should be, which is interesting considering that the Sir Carmonique is all

men and they're getting messages about how women should be. Uh. The spirit of Valmore has this one message where he more or less reiterates what's known as the Madonna Hoore complex that women are either these beautiful, wonderful virginal mothers, which is what they should be or they fall into loose behavior and prostitution, um, which doesn't give you know, a whole lot of agency for women to make their own identity. They've got a few messages from this um

French romantic writer. Um she was a noble woman, and I'm blanking on her name. Um. She was a noble woman and always signed off with her her title. And she wrote these letters with her daughter that were later published and sort of held up as this um ideal of what women Romantic era women should be. She delivers a couple of messages to this sir Carmonique which usually kind of told them, hey, don't forget about women. Women have some pretty cool ideas to women should be a

part of the conversation. Um, treat women well, don't treat us like material objects and playthings. Um. And the spirit of Mrs Washington. She has this one message. It's one line long, and she more or less just says like remember the ladies, um, which is a famous line of Jane Adams to her husband during the you know, early

Constitutional Congresses, where she tells him remember the ladies. And the spirit of Mrs Washington echoes that to the Sarcarmonique though it seems like they don't take those messages necessarily to heart because women occasionally attend meetings of the Sarcarmonique. But um, because when they do have guests there, they'll usually they usually make some sort of mention of it. But it's not all that common. Um. It seems like

adele On Reese, why if attends some of them. But you know, she's also wanting her son to be educated in the local Catholic school. So it seems like it's a primarily male enterprise for the SARCARMONIQ. What was a redoing with his life outside the cirque uh in the late sixties, early seventies, so he serves a term in the Louisiana legislature. UH. He serves on a school board, not the school board of his father, but for public schools. Who works at a hardware store. Um. He his house

catches on fire in the mid seventies. UM, and it seems like he loses everything. It's not clear if the seiance records were at his home at that point or someone else's home, because I sometimes wonder if he ran back into his burning home to save his silence records. UM. But he's they've got a pretty respectable home UM in the Tremay neighborhood. Uh, kind of living a New Orleans middle class what we might call middle class for the reconstruction period UM life. You mentioned that early on we

had his his struggles with the Catholic Church. Did the Cirque in general have an approach to the Catholic Church in New Orleans and did it change at all over the decades when they were meeting together. So most members of the Cirque would have grown up in the Catholic Church.

They were baptized, they were married in the Catholic Church. UM. In fact, there's a couple of members of the cir Carmonique that the only places that I've been able to find a mention of their name outside of you know, scribbled in the margins of the science records, is in the UM like baptismal records. So they grow up in the Catholic Church. UM. But they have a very i

would say interesting relationship with the Catholic Church. You know, the Catholic Church in New Orleans supports the Confederacy very strongly. During the Civil War. UM, there's this one very outspoken abolitionist priests who's threatened with excommunication UM and has his church shut down. UH priests regularly would refuse to give Eucharist to UM Black Catholic men in Union UH uniforms. There would be ceremonies. The Spirit would refer to these

ceremonies blessing Confederate flags UM during the Catholic Mass. So the Catholic Church locally is in support of the Confederacy. Even during the Union occupation of the city UM and the spirits delivered tons of messages about the materialism and greed of the Catholic Church and its priests, that the Catholic Church and wants money and secrets, money and secrets,

money and secrets, and that's what priests went to. They come to your door and they want you to tell them all of your family secrets, so then they have all of your personal information and then they want your money to UM. And so the institutionalism of the Catholic Church, you know, which was something that made it politically progress so early on, is sort of offering this place where you could rebuild family despite slavery's attempt to destroy black families.

It become the Catholic Church then becomes this power hungry, greedy thing that's trying to destroy um black agency. So they've got this very critical view of the Catholic Church. But then one of the most common spirit guides who appears throughout the tenure of the cur Carmonique is the spirit of St. Vincent but DePaul UM, which when you

think about it more, is not all that surprising. You know. St. Vincent DePaul is a champion for the marginalized, He's a champion for charity, so it it's not all that surprising that he would remain a saint for UM the Sura Carminique as well. And there was a pretty active St. Vincent de Paul Society in New Orleans at this time, so you know, it's a name that had cache for

progressive Catholic thought. UM. And so you've got Catholic spirits who are appearing French revolutionary priests are appearing UM and

being critical of their own institution. UM. So there was this way in which like the institution of Catholicism was severely criticized in the spirits m messages, but radical Catholic figures were celebrated as UM, you know, beloved spirit guides into the seventies as the White League Uh Caesar his power in New Orleans starts to dismantle any kind of gains that had been made under reconstruction in New Orleans. Did that inflect the kinds of spirit messages that the

sarkarmunique was getting. It did? Um. So there's the what I would call sort of the heyday of the Sarcarmonique, which is in the early eighteen seventies, where they're receiving political messages frequently after the Battle of Liberty Place, which is in September of eighteen seventy four, this horrible three day rogue rule of New Orleans by a white supremacist

terrorist organization. UM. During that the spirits of Mechanics Institute riot martyrs appear to the Sarcarminique and encourage them to keep the faith that their rights will be maintained. Um. But there's a spirit I can't remember who it is now, but there's a spirit that tells them the sort of paraphrise kind of also tells them to be careful, um that looking for retribution is definitely not a good idea.

And I think there's sort of a warning in that of we're holding dangerous ideas and it's this is a place that is increasingly becoming more and more dangerous to hold two ideas of equality and so in it seems like actually starting in late eight most of the seance records for the last two years are mainly just on re Um, And that's something that actually makes me really

sad to think about. Other members had joined the spirit world, some had moved Um, some fell away from the group, And there's a way in which the spirits promise that the idea could take hold and blossom in our world. That was a dream that was slipping further and further away as Reconstruction began to really demonstrate the failure that

it wise. And so as that's happening, there's the messages are less and less politically potent, especially when it seems like it's it's just on re Um sitting there by himself. The messages lack so much of the bite of earlier years. Instead, he receives a lot of messages that reinforce that he's not alone Um, that the spirits are still with him.

Some of them might contain these sort of bland calls for progress Um, but actually it's really just sad to me I think about him sometimes just sitting by himself at a table, a table that used to be full of vibrant conversation about the potential of what the spirit spoke of, and now it's just him. Um. I'm sure the science records offered some comfort, um, but in the end, it's just him and the records end in November eight as reconstruction itself comes to a close. Mhm, it's a

sobering note. Um. In the following decades, spiritualists were still practicing, and there were attempts to formalize spiritualism across the US, to build institutions. Uh, you know the Morest Pratt Institute in the Midwest, the the National Association of Spiritualists, or

maybe got that wrong. I think it's the National Spiritualist Association. Um. What did it look like towards the end of the century from from your perspective studying spiritualism broadly and studying the Star Carmonique Um, in the later years of the nineteenth century, what was spiritualism's significance or or position kind of in the American religious landscape? Two? Around the turn of the century, spiritualism is still pretty strong, but it's in the process of changing. Um, it's taking on a

little bit of a different flavor. I think. So you still have people practicing at home, but increasingly I would say spiritualism is sort of leaving the home parlor and more. I mean, it had always had a public element to it, but the public element seemed like it was becoming more and more important. Um. So you've got like the rise of psychical research, including the work of William James, impacting spiritualism.

Where you've got some people who are doing psychical research who are identifying spiritualism as a hoax, others who are saying there might be something to this. Um. You've got people reading the work of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, both the Sherlock Holmes books, but then also some of his other writings on spiritualism. The particular sort of taste I think that spiritual some at least leaves in my mouth around on a century is it's much more public and it has less of that sort of private in home

feel to its. Um. I think it's a big bump in popularity after World War One. Um. You know, as as with the Civil War, people look for continued relationships with the dead after so much death plagues you. But you've also got the rise of you know, all of the the flurry of patterns that are coming through the U. S.

Patent Office for what would become the Luigi Board. So there's this m I don't want to sound like I'm saying there was no sincerity and spiritualism anymore, because I'm certainly not saying that, but it increasingly in what I'm looking at, has a little less of that closed, private

quiet feel mhm. And I think there there's been an experience for a lot of religious communities of seeing, whether they would say it's commercialization or co option, seeing something that is earnest and devotional becomes something that is public and marketable, um experienced as a loss, right, a degrading. Is that a dynamic that you see in the later decades of the nineteenth century and spiritualism. I think there, I think there is some of that, But then there's

also this really savvy response to that. You have the development of spiritualist communities UM in places like upstate New York or Florida. Yeah, that that take what might sound is like this nostalgic lament for you know, back when spiritualism was you know, not commercialized, and they've actually had some of the their success and maintain the longevity of their communities in part because of that public facing element of their practice. UM So, I think maybe just the

main thing to always remembers spiritualists are they're innovative. Um you know, spiritual experimentation is one of the most American things that there is, and spiritualists innovated on that and continue to innovate on that and remain relevant because of it. That's beautiful. Hey, folks, it's Aaron here. I hope today's in your you helped you deepen your understanding of everything involved in the world of spiritualism. But we're not done yet.

We have more interviews to share with you, so stick around after this brief sponsor break to hear a preview of next week's interview. Next time on Unobscured, there are many accounts, not just then but later on where you really have to wonder whether they develop a clairvoyance, because some of them are inexplicable, and it's threaded throughout the book,

but there are those other incidents. But anyway, it finally gets to be so big, and meanwhile the church is of course a horrified They think these girls are, which is they are communing with something they shouldn't be communing with the dead. Their death threats against them, and they have to be very careful where they go, and some very religious clergy and peep in Rochester threatened to kill them and run them out of town a tar and

feather them at the least. Unobscured was created by me Aaron Manky and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and Josh Thane in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research and writing for this season is all the work of my right hand man Carl Nellis, and the brilliant Chad Lawson

composed the brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our contributing historians, source material and links to our other shows over at history unobscured dot com and until next time, thanks for listening Unobscured as a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Monkey. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit th Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H