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Hi everyone, I'm Brane Brown and this is Unlockingass. I'm super excited about the podcasts plural this week. We have a two-part special this week Wednesday and Friday, and it's all about apologizing. This is a personal one for me, and for many reasons, I'll start with this. I have apologized more since we've been in quarantine, and we've been in this pandemic. I think I've apologized more during this period of time than I have in probably the last five years added together.
I don't know about you, but I have not been my best self. I've been kind of my shitty self more than once. My tired self, my anxious self, my plagued with feelings of like I've gotten used to being like kind of the half-ass.
I can't do it all perfect. Sometimes I feel like a half-ass mom, a half-ass partner, a half-ass professor. This has been the quarter-eighth ass problem that I've been up against since the pandemic started. I find myself apologizing a lot, and I find myself deeply grateful to Harriet Learner who taught me how to apologize.
So in 2017, she wrote a book called Why Won't You Apologize. And the two of us taught a class together on apologizing. For Unlocking Us, we have taken that class and turned it into two podcasts that we're going to drop this week on what is an apology? How do you do it and why is it important?
There is a lot of good stuff in this podcast. Let me tell you, we go there. I mean, we really go there. And you can expect some honest, hard conversations. You can expect me to resist what she's trying to tell me and teach me because she tells me to get my butt out of my apology.
Because I have a chance to say, look, I'm really sorry, but we do a role play that I can tell you when we did it in person, we had to take a break after it was so intense. So you probably heard me talk about Dr. Harriet Learner a lot. I know what I talked about when I talked about over and under-functioning because she taught me about that as well.
She is one of the most respected voices in psychology in terms of helping us navigate the swamps and quicksands of difficult relationships. She's the author of 12 books published in 35 languages. They include New York Times bestseller, the dance of anger, the first book I ever read about emotion and how our feelings, choices and thinking all interact together.
And her latest book is Why Won't You Apologize? Healing Big Betrayals in Everyday Hurts. She did her undergraduate work at the University of Wisconsin at Madison where she majored in psychology and East Indian studies. She received her MA in Educational Psychology from Teachers College at Columbia and a PhD in Clinical Psychology from the City University of New York.
She completed her pre-doctoral internship at Mount Zion Hospital in San Francisco and then moved to Topeka, Kansas, in 1972 for a two-year postdoctoral training program at Minninger. She then joined the staff at Minninger where she was a teacher and supervisor in the Carl Minninger School of Psychiatry for over two decades.
After Minninger left Topeka, she came here to Houston, Lucky S, She and her husband Steve, who's also a psychologist, moved to Lawrence, Kansas, where they currently have a private practice. Two grown sons, Matt and Ben, Ben as an amazing writer, FYI, and Harriet continues to lecture and consults nationally while her psychotherapy practice remains at the heart of her work.
She's a life changer for me. Her work changed my life, shaped my career. Harriet has a real stance on forgiveness. It's different than a lot of people, which is sometimes forgiveness in her mind is not warranted. And so I think apologizing and forgiving and what we're talking about in these lessons, you have to take that into context. Are you in a safe, healthy relationship where making mistakes and apologizing are a part of how you grow and change and stretch? And if so, this is great.
And sometimes I think Harriet would say, you don't always have to forgive to be healthy. But when it's time to say, I'm sorry, do we know how and do we know why and do we know what works. So let's dig in to this first episode with me and Harriet talking about apologizing, how you do it. Friday will drop part two. This podcast covers the first two lessons that she teaches and then the Friday podcast will cover the next two.
Strap yourselves in friends, buckle up. It's going to be a bumpy ride. But as Harriet says, I'm sorry, if you love other people and you want to tend to relationships, they're probably the two most important words. We are going to jump into one of the topics that I think is probably one of the most misunderstood, scary for some and important topics that I've covered in my work with you. And that's apologizing.
So here's the thing, when you spend 15 years studying vulnerability, courage, shame and empathy, you start to hear the same questions and the same struggles over and over again. And one of the biggest questions that I get is, tell me about apologizing. Tell me about asking for an apology. Tell me what it takes to give a meaningful apology. I don't know how to do that, to be honest with you. And I'm not great at it. And I don't know about you, but I want to be better at it.
I'm the kind of person that when someone is telling me something I've done that's possibly hurt them. I don't listen to anything they're saying after you hurt my feelings because I'm preparing my defense as they're speaking. And also when I try to ask for an apology sometimes, I often go straight to, you were wrong, you're a jerk, which is the PG version of what I actually usually say. And I need an apology from you right now.
That doesn't work either. And so there was only one person that came to my mind and that's Harriet Lerner. I had to say over 20 years ago, the very first book, and I've written about this, but the very first book I ever received that really invited me to think about myself and how I showed up in my life was the dance of anger from Harriet. And my mom sent it to me with a note that said, I think you'll like this or at the least need it.
I didn't read it. She kept talking to me with me and then finally she sent it to me on cassette tape. And I listened to it and it actually changed my life because we're human. We hurt each other. We get hurt. And there's a way through that, but that way through depends on the ability to deliver an accepted powerful apology. And that's what we're going to do in this course.
Let's strap yourself in. We're going to have some fun and we're going to work with Harriet to try to understand what is the heart of a heartfelt apology. Okay, let's get started. Lesson one, the profound power of the apology. I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad I'm here too. I had to tell you all honestly. I've made a commitment to not fan girl during the whole time, but I just want to say just wants to get it out of my system.
This is freaking Harriet learner. And it's such an honor to be sitting here with you. I mean, I have to say, and this is true and I've told a lot of people this because I have bought the dance of anger for probably everybody I know. I don't think I'd be married if it weren't for you. Honestly. Wow. What you've taught me. Thank you. Just about myself. And now we're going to talk about apologizing. Thank you, Renee. I'm so looking forward to this.
Let me ask you this question before we get started. This is not an easy topic. Right. And it's really balzy to come out with a book on apologizing. This is important to you. It's very important to me. Tell me why it's important to you. Because I believe that the words, the two words I'm sorry are the most important words in our language. We're all connected. We all screw up. We're all imperfect human beings.
And for this reason, the need to give and receive apologies will be with us until our very last breath. And when they're done right, apologies are very healing, but when apologies are absent or they go south, it will compromise a relationship or it can lead to the end of a relationship. So apologizing is essential to everything we hold dear to family, to marriage, to leadership, to parenting, to our ability to love ourselves and love other people.
Apologizing is at the heart of it. So this really matters. I said in the introduction to the course, this is the question. There are three or four topics that just come up in my career over and over and over again. And apologizing is one of them. Let me ask you this before we get started because here's the thing. I know this community. We're not afraid of hard things. That's why most of you break people show up to begin with. Why are we afraid to talk about apologizing?
Well, if you ask people, they'll just say, well, I know how to apologize. Or they'll say, I think it's a boring topic. And I think it's very hard to talk about because as we'll see later, it gets to the subject of defensiveness, it gets to the subject of how hard it is when someone is criticizing us to not be making our case as the other person is talking. It gets to the issue of accountability and responsibility. Can we be accountable and responsible for the errors we make?
And that's very tough stuff because we all have a favored image of ourselves and we want to see ourselves in a certain way. And we don't want to look at certain things like how we hurt people, how we operate their expense, how we've been insensitive. It's difficult. I just put this course in front of me for very specific reasons. So have you become like an expert apologizer? Are you good at this?
Well, I'm glad you asked for a name because it's the author of the Dents of Anger and a new book on Apologies. I am a relationship expert. So I get all of my apologies exactly right. You might say perfectly. So I moved through my whole relational world with perfect clarity and calm and wisdom and which, much like a saint or a highly evolved Zen Buddhist. But actually, I'm just kidding. Oh my god, if she's not bullshitting me, I'm going to run. I'm just going to go right under this table.
Really, I'm totally, of course, teasing. Apologizing is really difficult. And one of the things like with Steve, for example, my husband, I like to apologize for exactly my percent, like 47%. 47% to blame. And I'm very good at apologizing for how I work out my percentage. And I also insist that Steve apologize for his percentage. 43. Well, yes, exactly as I calculated as well. I calculate out his percentage and avoid his to blame.
And since we don't always do the same math, this can lead to the theater of the absurd. But I do think having been putting my energy into apologies for the past few years that I have gotten better at it. I have gotten better at it. I love that question because people always say, so you don't experience shame anymore because you study shame. I'm like, I wish it worked that way. You say that there are three really important gifts of a heartfelt apology. Tell me what those gifts are.
Okay. First, it's a gift to the other person. It's a gift to the person that we hurt. We all know this firsthand. When I receive an apology, I feel soothed and calmed. And my leftover resentment and anger and bitterness can melt away. So it's a gift to the hurt party because it can release them from obsessing. That's sort of obsessive anger and bitterness. Self-righteousness. Right. It also is a gift to the hurt party because it allows them to feel safe and comfortable in the relationship again.
They can feel safe knowing that their feelings affect us. Their anger and pain affects us and that we are going to care about their feelings and listen and feel remorse and set things right. I love that piece. It will allow me if I receive a heartfelt apology. I want to make sure I'm getting this right. I'm with y'all. I'm a student here of Harriet's and the apologizing. This is not a strong suit for me because I have the words. I don't have the heartfelt part. And so this is important for me.
The first gift is, as someone who's been hurt, I can let go. The resentment, the self-righteousness, the blame, the anger. The waking up, the three in the morning, obsessing. How could you do this? How could you do this to me? I've got a blue. She said that and not see it. Right. How could they not have seen what they did? How could they not see it? Yes. The second gift to me sounds like it's emotional safety.
Right. Exactly. I can be in this relationship again with you and know that my safety and this relationship is also important to you. Right. And that your pain and your feelings and your voice can affect me, can reach me. What's the third gift? The third gift. And we're still on the first gift, which is the gift to the other person. Okay, so over and over again. Not in sub-gifts within the gift to me.
Okay. Is that it validates the hurt party sense of reality that the whole hearted apology says to the hurt person, I get it, you're right, your feelings make sense, I screwed up, it validates your reality. And that's so important to people because we all grew up in families where bad things happened and we were hurt. And the important people in our life, like our parents or siblings, did not say to us, this is real, this is happening, it's not good for you, your feelings make sense.
So it's very important that we hear that as adults. So that's the first gift, which is all of these gifts to the hurt party. Oh my God, so that's a big honking gift to me as a part of the party. So if you did something that hurt me and you deliver a heartfelt apology to me, I want to go through what that first gift is. It is, I can let go of the anger, resentment, all the kind of dark emotion, I can let go of that.
I have a sense of emotional safety, my feelings matter to you, you'll recognize them and acknowledge them. And you're validating my reality, which is huge. Huge. Right. Because you know what, so many times in an apology, I hear people say, I have said, well that's not how I see it. Or I could say, you know, I apologize for now, your feelings make sense, but they're a little exaggerated. You know, you may need to work on your sensitivity, they're a little exaggerated. So that's not validating.
That's not validating. So a heartfelt, validates my experience as real. Right. Okay, so first gift, big. What's the second gift? The second gift is less obvious. It's a gift to the self. When I apologize to you, it's a gift to myself. And I know it doesn't feel that way because when we apologize or consider it, we may feel small and vulnerable. And I might have all kinds of fears. I might fear that you won't accept my apology. Because we have no control over how an apology will be received.
I have a fear that in saying, I'm sorry, I'm going to unleash more anger and criticism, which often. Which often happens, you'll have a lot more to tell me when I say, I'm sorry about why I should be even more sorry. Some people feel when they apologize that they are losing something, they're giving up their edge to the other person. And you're somehow going to use it against me. This is somewhat more common in men than in women.
And of course, an apologizing, we have to admit that we're not perfect people that we screwed up. And some of us don't want to see that. So it doesn't feel like it's a gift to the self, but it's the greatest gift to the self. Because in the long term, we grow in maturity and self worth. I will grow in maturity and self worth. When I can see myself objectively, I can orient toward reality. I can take responsibility for operating at your expense.
This is the basis of good self-esteem. This is the basis of self-respect. So to sum it up, although we may feel vulnerable and small and apologizing, or I might feel that I'll lose the respect of the other person. Parents tell me I don't want to apologize to my kids, they won't respect my authority. It's the opposite. I will be more respected with a good apology. So we actually grow in resilience, in happiness, in maturity, and integrity. We grow in these things. One heartfelt apology at a time.
Oh my god. Okay. So that is so counterintuitive, but so true. I am thinking of a very specific example where I had to really show up and hear how bad something, a choice I had made, had hurt someone. And I offered a really heartfelt apology, and it was so vulnerable and so scary. But I have to say, when it was over and I was back at home, I felt so brave. And I had so much respect for the fact that I was willing to do that. Right. It changed me in a really fundamental way.
Wow, that's a great understanding. I mean, like it did. It changed how I thought about myself. You can do this. And you stand on firm ground, however the other person responds. I mean, that's something we don't have control of. We don't have control. I hate that part. Right. I hate that part too. Okay. Maybe we get smarter. Maybe after this. Well, not only have control over ourselves, but of course about all these other stories. The world at large. You heard it here first. Yes. Right.
Okay. What is the third gift of the apology? The really heartfelt apology? The third gift is that the heartfelt apology is a gift to the relationship. That relationships just can't function. If we don't trust that we will try to heal the disconnection after we mess up. So intimacy and being able to have a good relationship, they just rest on our ability to repair that hurt.
Because we will. We will mess up, especially in the long term, interring relationship, where we're not always going to be our best self. Okay. So along with the power of a good apology, there's also the negative consequences of a bad apology. Right. Tell me. The negative consequences of a bad apology are pretty profound, because relationships suffer and people actually will cut off from each other.
Especially by the way, if it's an anxious family life cycle time, caring for an elderly parent, a parent's death, the funeral, the aftermath of death, and there is an injury, and it's not repaired. Someone is very insensitive, and they say a really stupid thing, and we're not at our best at life cycle events, even happy ones like marriages, and it's not repaired. This is where I see people cut off.
This is where I see sisters cut off and stop speaking to each other, say around the impending death or funeral of their mom, because someone has said something very insensitive or insulting, and they have not tried to repair it. And the other person is pretty unforgiving and doesn't soften up, because it's a very anxious time. Because everybody's covered up. Exactly. So, you know, the cost of not apologizing or a bad apology at its worst would be total cut off.
And at its best, there's like this little river of something wrong between you and I. It can be very subtle, because we still love each other, we're friends. But there's something different that this thing has never... You've never been able to see it or repair it, even when I've mentioned it. How many of us are in relationships where that river flows through it? I mean, like that happens.
It's just that unspoken thing that we've settled into it not being what it could be, because we don't know how to get there. Right. Or the other person is just not going to see that thing. Not going to get it. Right? Yeah. Can I tell the story better, really bad apology that just came to me? Oh my God, yes. It happened just recently. And a bad apology, the deep into the original injury is worse than no apology. So I was at a reception at about six o'clock at the university by where I lived.
And I hadn't eaten all day and I was very hungry. And I get to the reception and there's this table with cheese. And there was one thing of bree and I have a weakness for soft cheese. I was with hard cheese. I behaved myself and I was soft cheese. So I get there and admittedly I probably was improper in the amount of cheese I was eating. I mean, I was eating the bree like I was taking slices of pizza.
And a woman who was there who I've known for a long time, but I don't know her well in front of a whole group of people said to me, I'm not a pariette, you know, there are other people here. There are other people who would like that cheese. I felt really badly and I stopped eating the cheese. But it was actually very inappropriate. And she said it so sternly and there are all these people around. I didn't know and some I knew.
So it just so happened that a couple of days later I ran into her at our local co-op. And she said, you know, I'm sorry I made that comment and I shouldn't have made that comment. And I said, holding the connection, I said, thank you for the apology. I appreciate it. It's very hard for people to say that. It's a powerful thing to say. Because in saying that I was saying yes, you know, you really should apologize. And I accept it.
Because very often people will say, oh, it was not going to worry about it. It's okay, you know. So I said, thank you for the apology. I really appreciate it. Holding the connection. She then said, well, you know, the reason I apologized is if I had been in your shoes eating that cheese, I mean, if I had been you, I really would have wanted someone to tell me how to behave and she said, you know, because there were other people who had noticed and were also talking about it.
I said, really, I said, what other people who were those other people? Because by the way, nameless, faceless criticism. The invisible army. Oh, please. Don't pull that shit with Harriet Larner. People would just tell you right now. Exactly. So I said, well, who, you know, who are those people? And she said, oh, I don't remember it's not important. And she walked away. But if she had just left it there saying, I'm sorry, I made that comment. And instead, she went on to sort of further shame.
And not only that, like that it was inappropriate in it. If she'd been me, she certainly would have網ed it to be corrected with such behavior. But there were other nameless, faceless people who were probably still talking about my cheesy thing behavior. I mean, I think I read it in the paper. You've probably heard about it. So some apologies. It would be better if she hadn't apologized at all. OK, this is a good example. I had to do it. I had to go with the pun. I just had to. It's terrible.
But no, wait, this is what I make up. This is a story I make up. So I make up, if you would have looked at her and said, no, really, it's OK. Which most people do, by the way, don't worry about it. Yeah, don't worry about it. It's OK. And I really was overboard on the tree. Which I was, by the way, but that's beside the point. That's in her freaking business. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I think if you would have said to her, this is what I make up. Oh my god, it's OK.
I totally like, I just, I shouldn't have done that. She was saying, well, we all fault her sometimes. Yeah. But when you said, because one of the things I have done with my children religiously, since they were old enough to offer apologies and accept them, is you are not allowed in my house to say, that's OK. You have to say, thank you. I appreciate it. That means something to me.
Uh-huh. And when Ellen does that with school, like my daughter, who's a senior in high school, when someone else I am really sorry about that. And she said, I appreciate your apology. That was a really hard thing for me. She said, they almost look like they're going to be sick. Right. It's really interesting. And by the way, do you want to know the number one reason for my research, the children do not apologize? Why?
Children learn not to apologize as adults, because their parents cannot say, thank you for the apology I appreciate it. Without all these add-ons, thank you for the apology I appreciate it. But I really hope you'll think a lot more about how you excluded your brother. And I don't know if you really mean that apology. And I don't know if it's sincere. Maybe next time you can apologize before I ask you to. So the parent, rather than saying thank you for the apology, goes on and on.
And the kid wants to stick their fingers in their ears. And you know, it sounds like a very simple thing. It is really hard for parents to say thank you for the apology I appreciate it without the little add-ons that I want to put on. Like why do you take you so long? Yeah, and you better think twice about that. And let's not have it again. Really? And say it like you really mean it. I would like you know, you do apologize. Like you were holding your arms like this.
Stand up straight and look me in the eye when you do it. Yes. Yes. Yeah, anyway, just do it. Yeah, no. If you want to teach your children to apologize, forget that look me in the eye. You know, say it like you mean it. Think about that more. You can have that conversation later. Yeah, for sure. OK. OK. We did that. We did the parenting piece. Yeah, no, because I mean it's very important.
It's so important because the people I've interviewed over the years who can't apologize when I'll talk to them what's scary. A lot of times I've heard that sometimes while apologizing to my parents was always a mistake because they use it as a discipline moment. But the other thing is they will say, I never saw my parents model what an apology look like with me or to each other. Right. Right.
You know, it's so important to model good apologizing for your children because if you can't apologize to them, why should they apologize to you? In my experience as a therapist though, when the parents don't, you know, kids look at their parents' limitations and mistakes. And they think I'm going to do that differently. Yeah. And they do. So that's the number two reason why kids learn that to apologize. The number one reason is that when they do apologize, something icky happens.
And the same with adults, like in marriage, like, you know, people will tell me, I don't want to apologize to my wife because she'll just like, you know, lay it on me more. Who's against me later? Right. Right. It'll unleash an ocean of more criticism. So it's tough to give the apology despite all of the things that the receiver of the apology might do wrong and to be able to accept an apology just with the words, thank you for the apology. And you can save the rest for another conversation.
Yeah. A lot of times I'll tell people, I think I got this either. I probably got this from either your book or my therapist, which is, wholeheartedly apologize, receive with a whole heart. And some of the other works that needs to follow up, that's a different conversation. Exactly. Just sink into the moment of the apology. Right.
All right, lesson two, this is where we're going to start to put the lessons that Harriet's teaching us into practice by learning the nine essential ingredients to a heart-felt apology. This is from Harriet's book, Why Won't You Apologize? This is the moment for me in the book where I got my big aha. I saw what I did well and I saw what I did not do well. So we're going to go through the nine and here's how we're going to do it. I'm going to read it, help me understand it. Is that OK?
OK. All right, number one, a true apology does not, it's hard right off the bat, y'all. OK, a true apology does not include the word but. This actually, I think, is the easiest to understand because it's the most common apology error. When you say I'm sorry but, whatever follows that but is going to be a criticism, a justification, or an excuse. Like, Rune, I'm really sorry that I forgot your birthday. I totally spaced it out but it was a really busy time for me.
Everything was falling through the cracks. So once you say I'm sorry but, it doesn't matter if what you say after the but is true, it will cancel out your apology. So drop the but. What if you say like I'm really sorry but you were being asshole. How does that work? It's an apology. That's one of my favorites, does it not? What if it's true? It doesn't matter. Well, you can tell someone they're an asshole but don't pretend it's an apology. In other words, if you're, did y'all get that?
Wait. Right. So if your intention is to give an apology, don't use the add-on but because it makes your apology. False. I'm really sorry, Brune, that I spoke to you so harshly but you were provoking me a little bit. Drop the apology. Drop the apology. That's good. Drop the but. And notice other people's butts as well. But I mean that in the correct sense of that word. I'm pretty sure that our folks will find you very appropriate if I can do this. But here's the thing.
What I love that you said is if I want to say that to you and I want to call out your behavior and some way you hurt me or showed up in some crappy way that was not okay for me, that's okay. You're saying that's okay for me to do that. Just don't call an apology. Right. Right. Wow. No. Okay. My mind is blown. I want number one. Okay. A true apology, number two. A true apology keeps a focus on your actions and not on the other person's response. This is a very important one.
And it's very difficult for people. If I say to you, Brunei, I'm sorry that you felt hurt that I corrected your stories at the party. That is not an apology. I'm sorry you felt hurt. Okay. I don't know. I'm pissed off just hearing that. There's no accountability there. The accountability would be saying, I'm sorry I corrected your stories at the party. I know you don't like that. It was out of line. And I will not do it again.
Actually, I have a great example of from the workplace, a guy who was consulting with me. And he told me that at a meeting, he had made an unfortunate joke about women having smaller brains. He made some kind of smart ass comment about that. His boss is a woman. And after the meeting, he said to her, I want to apologize. I'm sorry if you felt hurt by the stupid joke that I made. And she said to him, you know, my feelings are not that easily hurt. And it was clear that she was irritated.
And he didn't understand why. That rather than saying to her, I'm sorry that I made that stupid joke. It was out of line. It was an appropriate. I won't do it again. You said, I'm sorry if you felt hurt by the joke. Is if her sensitivity or her over-sensitivity might have been the problem. So it's very important when you apologize, you are apologizing clearly, unequivocally, for what you have said or done, or not said or done, and not on the other person's feelings. You get it? Oh, no, I get it.
I get it. I have to take a moment. OK. Let me run some practice ones by you. OK. I'm sorry you were offended by that. I don't feel apologized to, because I don't know what you're apologizing for. You're apologizing that I'm offended? No, I have a right to be offended. Why are you apologizing? Why don't you talk about, Renee, the offensive thing that you said? That's my just- Roku got reaction to that. Yeah, that's so good. OK. OK. I'm really sorry for what I said.
I know that's a real area of sensitivity for you. Oh, god. I want to give you a smack. Right. No, I've had someone say that to me. I know that you're really sensitive in that area. That happened to me. I put this in my, why won't you apologize to me on this book where someone kept using the wrong photo of me? I had asked for a current photo. He was using one from 20 years ago. Maybe he thought a younger-looking photo would attract more participants.
And it was really difficult, because he wouldn't correct the photo. And he ended up saying, well, I apologize. I didn't realize that you were so sensitive about this. And Harriet, you know, I really don't think the participants care as much as you do about how you look. And I was saying, this is not the issue. The issue is I want you to use the current photo that I supplied for you. But I felt so insulted that he turned it into, I'm sorry, that you're so sensitive about this photo issue.
That felt shaming to me. It very shaming. It was awful. OK. So number two is a true apology keeps the focus on your actions, not on the other person's response. Right, in feelings. In feelings. OK. Number three, a good apology includes an offer of reparation or restitution that fits the situation. Absolutely. If I borrow your scarf and I lose it, it's not enough to say, Bernam, really sorry that I lost your scarf. I mean, obviously, I need to buy you a new scarf or for it to pay for the scarf.
And that's a very simple example. I don't know if you relate to that one. Can you think of an example where you needed to make a reparation or? Yeah, I'm sure I can come up with an example where I need to make a reparation. Or someone else did. Well, I don't know if this is a good example, but I'm going to use it because it's a hard thing in my life right now. There's a person who I had a really good friendship with. And it was about very reciprocal and very connected.
And since my platform and visibility has changed, and the last ten times this person has reached out to me, everyone has been a request to do something for either him or someone related to him or someone that knows him that needs something. And so I never mind like signing it, but it's always what can you do for me? Right. And it's maybe it shouldn't hurt my feelings. I don't know. Now I'm getting like vulnerable talking about it.
But it really hurts my feelings because it makes me feel like you don't care about me, you care about what I can do for you. And so I don't think I'd be able to be back in deep connection with that person if that was not acknowledged and there was some amends made. And also a corrective behavior. So, do you understand what we're talking about? Exactly.
Have you been able to find the courage to tell the person what you just told us that it's hard for them that they're asking so much because it makes you feel like things are at a balance and that they don't really care about you as a person. Have you told them? That's good commercial break. No, no, actually, I'm just accumulating all the offenses. I see. I see. So you can say you have done this 23 times. No, I'm literally accumulating them and numbering them. Well, and then what's your question?
So, I think the thing is, so what would it be? So if you were that person, let's say, and I said to you, and pretend like I'm going to say it right because I don't have to rehearse this. But I always say to you, here's how I feel. Right. That housing system. Thank you. Here's how I feel about the directional relationship has taken over the last six months. It's hurtful to me because I felt before then our relationship was very reciprocal. I was there for you. You were there for me.
And now it doesn't feel like that anymore for me. I've documented the last 20 times you've taken it. No, I won't say that. That's where you lost me. Yeah, I feel, you know, I would probably say what I make up is every time you reach out to me recently, it's for me to do something for you. Now, as soon as you've said every time, you've lost me too because I'm going to think of a time when we were in connection and I wasn't asking for a favor. No, I like those big words.
Right. No. Okay, so I'll get defensive. Okay. So it feels like often when you reach out, it's to ask me to do something not so much for you, but for people who are coming to you saying, can you get Bernadie to do this for us? Can you get Bernadie to speak here? Can you get Bernadie to sign this or donate this? And it's just hurting my feelings. Wow. I wasn't aware at all that it was hurting your feelings and I'm really sorry and I'm going to think about it and I'm not going to do that again.
Because I'm in need. I know what you're trying, but that's because so let me tell you what I'm feeling. Yeah. I'm feeling like that's really kind and that's exactly the right thing, but I'm not going to be able to bash you over the head with my list. Well, you're also going to be seeing whether the apology was heartfelt because it depends on what happens now. It was totally depends on what happens.
Right. So if I call you tomorrow, and I say, Bernadie, someone really important to me wants you to speak at this event. Yeah. I could do the apology means nothing. So I don't think I could repair it in terms of repair and restitution, but I could show you through corrective action that I meant the apology. Let me give an example of this where I number three, right? A good apology includes an offer of reparation or restitution.
So in this case, the reparation would really be that moving forward, his actions reflect his deep understanding of my hurt and they are not about getting things from me. Right. And let me give you an example more concretely of reparation and repair. Okay. I just thought of something that was very painful for me where I was working at a psychiatric hospital over a number of decades.
And I did a lot of publishing and I published very early and I felt undervalued because I was very interested in the psychology of women. Feminism had not yet come to this institution and I felt in general ignored. And I went around complaining to my colleagues that I was not being valued, which is a very bad thing to do in the workplace. You go around complaining that you're not valued. But I was young and I didn't know any better.
So anyway, something happened that was enormously painful for me sometime later, which is that they compiled all of the publications of the staff and circulated it to all of the staff and I was left out. My publications were left out or rather like one was mentioned, but I was really pretty devastated. So it took all my courage, but I went to the chief, whatever. And I said how terrible I felt.
And I said, you know, can you help me to understand this that all of my scholarly publications aren't on here? And he was fabulous. And it seemed very heartfelt. He said, I am so sorry. I will find out who did this. There's no excuse for it. You've published more than everybody. He was very kind. I left his office feeling very good. I later, over the next week or weeks, started feeling less good.
And the reason that I felt less good has to do with reparation and restitution, which is that he never sent around a new list. He never made a new list with my publications. He never said to the group of the psychologists, you know, we left Harriet off the list, you'll get a new list. We know that, you know, her publications are so valued. So it became empty because leaving me as a staff person off that list needed a reparation. Oh, yeah. In front of the group, do you understand?
Oh, yeah, I totally understand. Right. I think this is really helpful because I get the scarf for sure. Because I borrow someone's umbrella and lost it or scarred. It isn't even, to me, it almost falls under manners. Like I apologize here's the new scarf. But it's easy when you're at it.
The reparations around the publication and then also for me, I think the example I shared is that the reparations, sometimes it's going back and making, but it also, you cannot separate action and behavior from heartfelt apology, can you? Right. Dang. Support for this show comes from SACS. At SACS.com, it's easy to find your new vibe. Like making vacation your whole personality with a camp shirt from Casa Blanca that screams Italian holiday.
You can shop SACS.com for everything on your agenda, whether it's Swade Prada loafers for a dinner party or a bright theory blizzard for the office. Find inspiration for your new vibe every day at SACS.com. Support for this show comes from Sylvan Learning. As a parent, you want your child to have every opportunity. But giving them the tools they need to tackle every challenge, that takes a team.
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So 360 degree view into your child's learning that you can't find anywhere else. And helps ensure that your child didn't miss something in school that might put them at a disadvantage in the future. And right now, it's the best price of the year at $29. Go to Sylvan29.com to learn more and get your child's assessment for only $29. This is Sylvan, V-A-N-29.com. Okay. Let's go number four. A true apology does not overdo. Okay. Well, we know that a true apology doesn't underdo.
Right. Like if, for example, I have really done something damaging to you, really hurtful. You know, I don't want to sort of underdo it. Like if I broke your coffee cup, I'm sorry. You didn't mean that. But you can also overdo an apology. And there are two kinds of overdoing. One is what, you know, women are so famous for. Like my generation of women like apologized for taking up oxygen in the room. And we're taught to feel guilty and responsible for everything.
We were guilty about leaving our work for our children. We were guilty about leaving our children for our work. We were guilty if we didn't have work. We were guilty if we didn't have children. We were guilty about feeling guilty. So we did everything. We apologize for everything. And you know, we still see this and it's not helpful to women. But oh, Brunei, I'm so sorry.
Did I like knock your coffee cup or, oh, did you want to sit in this chair or, I'm so sorry or, oh, I've been talking so much. I'm so sorry, Brunei. I always say, how you always end up like sort of talking too much on. So if you over-apologize in this way, it disrupts the flow of conversation and it irritates your friends. Yes. So if you're apologizing for failing to return your friends' top aware, you know, don't apologize like you've run over her kitten or don't, like, don't overdo it.
And it's funny because if you're an over-apologizer, it seems very self-effacing, but it really makes everyone pay attention to you. Like if you're always over-apologizing rather than my talking about what I want to talk about, I have to say, no, it's okay, Brunei. I'm already bad at Brunei, you know. So okay. So we don't want to do that. Okay. There's a more serious kind of over-apologizing.
And it's where I see it a lot between mothers and daughters where a daughter gets the courage to confront her mother about something very painful in the past. And then the mother gets so full of her own pain and remorse. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. I'm such a bad mother and the mother starts to cry. So then the daughter has to take care of the mother. So yes, you know, if you're confronting me with something that I really hurt you, I want to show that I carry some of that pain.
But if I overdo it, I am hijacking your pain. Oh, sure. I'm hijacking your story, for sure. So the moral is, if someone has the courage to confront you with their grief, don't act like they just rub your face in a plate of dog food. And now you can never say another word because you're such a bad person and you realize that everything you do is wrong and you're a bad mother and don't overdo it in that way. Is that clear? That's a better one. Oh, yeah. It's clear and it makes me crazy.
Let me ask you this. Why does that behavior? Because that's a behavior that I'm sure I need to look into for some therapeutic reason because it really makes me crazy. Why does that feel so passive aggressive to me? I don't think it but it's passive aggressive. I don't use that word very much. But I understand you're thinking of that word because if you're confronting me that I did something very hurtful.
And it turns out that I'm so regretful and so remorseful that you feel that you're opposing now. I apologize now. Right, you're feeling badly. Like you really hurt me and now I feel really badly by whatever we call it. It's not an apology anymore. It's not an apology because it's an invitation that you should take care of me and focus on my pain. An apology serves only to come and soothe the hurt party.
It's not for me to turn the tables and invite you to take care of me because now I feel so terrible and filled with guilt and remorse that you're going to go home and worry about me. What about this behavior work? What about this behavior work? Let's roleplay this real quick. You say to me, I know we talked about the fact that you're struggling with this.
You're saying I really need you to give me an accurate estimate when you're going to have this deliverable wet ready because a lot of people down the line are counting on it. Right. Let's just say that. Okay. It's very important to me that you give me an accurate. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're right. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Are you mad? I would think you're very immature. But what happens when it's that over-kind of light? I'm so sorry. I can't do anything right. I'm so sorry.
Well, in a work situation, my reaction would be no need for the apology. It's important as that you're responsible with this because in the past, there have been two episodes where you haven't gotten things in a time. It's like I feel that my message, which has to do with you being accountable and responsible is getting, because this is a work system, that it's getting turned into a sort of emotional, I don't know what. So, yeah, it does stay on. I would want to stand target.
I would say you don't need to apologize. My point is, it's really important that you get it done by this stage. Okay. Right. It's very helpful because I hear, I mean, I work with a lot of leaders who say they'll get through feedback and they're trying to be, you know, not emotional, just very tactically back, but people start profoundly apologizing and apologizing and then they just stop all the feedback and stop talking about the issue and start taking care of the person. Exactly.
And that's the mistake of the leader because the person in charge needs to say, you know, this is not a combination or anything, let's just go through this. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So now we're going to go to essential ingredient number five. I feel like you put this in there just to piss me off. Oh, I did, Bernie. I really hate this one. Okay. A true apology doesn't get caught up in who's more to blame or who started it.
You apologize for your part of the problem even if the other person can't see their part. Right. This is the hardest one for me because I feel that if I'm less than 50% to blame that the other person should apologize first because they're more to blame and that I don't feel like apologizing if they haven't apologized. But by the way, you know, it is a recipe for relationship failure to wait for the other person to change first, to wait for the other person to apologize first.
So this is a very hard one for me. Like, you know, I could give many examples, trivial and serious. You want a trivial one? Yeah, because actually I'm not on board. You're not. Why not? You're not on board because you don't get it or you don't like it. No, I get it like it. I get what you're saying. I'm just calling. Okay. Let me read this again. A true apology does not get caught up in who's more to blame or who started it.
You apologize for your part of the problem even if the other person can't see their part. Okay. I'm going to give you an example that's actually a failure of this. Okay. This is like my problem with this and it's a stupid example, but it's very common, especially. Okay. So this is with my husband, Steve. So he comes home from the grocery store with five totally ripe bananas. I immediately demand an apology. They're just two of us in the house.
I don't need a lot of bananas, I don't even like bananas. This means three of them are going to end up in the compost bin. We have talked about this banana thing before. So I'm angry. It demands an apology. And when he doesn't apologize for bringing home these five totally ripe bananas, I was in a bad mood. I was having a low self esteem day to which I respond by getting critical. So I went at him like a trial attorney.
You know, like how can he bring home five overly, not overly, but totally ripe bananas, knowing that they're, but then when I, when he's still didn't apologize, I said, you know, what kind of person, like what kind of person? I say to Steve, doesn't care about letting food rot in a world where people are going hungry. And that's good. Right? Then you know, I go on from there. So he gets defensive, surprise, surprise.
He tells me I should do the shopping myself if I'm going to criticize how he does it. I get furious because why am I suddenly the bad guy? I would never come home with five totally ripe bananas, which makes me the better person, have not the more highly evolved world citizen.
So you know, I argue with him and then I stomp off and no one wants to apologize because, you know, and this gets at this one, I don't want to apologize because I feel like he's making me the bad guy when he did the wrong thing. I mean, he came home with five bananas at the same level of ripeness. What's wrong with him? I don't understand it either unless you're making banana that bread. I don't get it. You don't make banana bread.
Well, by the way, I added that at the end of my demand for an apology. I said, what's wrong with you? By the way, what's wrong with you are the four words that will drive any conversation downhill. When I said, what's wrong with you then he said, you know, then he said, you can do the shopping yourself. But I'm not going to apologize because he started it and he did the wrong thing. And we've talked about this banana thing.
So he should apologize and there's no way he's going to apologize when I leap from how many bananas are going to end up in the compass bin. I leap to, you know, that he's not a good person. Like, what kind of person does such a thing? Really? What kind of person? So, you know, we're like stuck in this thing because I think he started it and he feels that I have been absolutely awful and ridiculous, you know, he's not good. So no one's going to apologize. So what's the solution?
Well, the solution is for Steve to apologize. Right. Now we're on to something. Now I'm making sense to make all the way to it. This is a class for my husband Steve. Yeah. Exactly. So since Steve was not a good enough person to apologize, I eventually calm down. And I went to him and I said, I'm really sorry that I overreacted to those five right bananas. And that's all. I wanted to say, but don't do it again. Right. Jerk. But I just said, I'm really sorry. And what he's saying to him.
He said, it's a bad time, you apologize. But I left it at that. I felt in thinking about it that I had a bit overreacted to the bananas. But that happens a lot in a relationship where... Oh my God. Shut up every day. Guys. Things go from zero to 100 and then each person is mad and wants the other to apologize. So this rule means apologize first for the part that you can agree with, even if it's only 5%. Do the right thing. Be a stand-up citizen in the relationship.
If you apologize for your part first, even if it's smaller. And really, I need to know this. And then they in turn don't apologize. Can you retract your earlier apology? Can you... I guess you could. You could say, I take my apology back since you're being such a jerk and you won't apologize. You can, but since we are in this difficult subject, learning about being our best self in a relationship, you would not then take your apology back.
You know, a colleague of mine has a great thing, she says, to couples. She says, it's just when the other person is being the biggest jerk that you're called upon to be your best self. So even though I knew Steve was being the bigger jerk with his five-right bananas, I come down enough to want to be my best self and I apologize. Okay, I'm going to have to work on five. Yeah, because it's not a miracle. But I could give my banana lecture later to him. That's okay. Yes, just not an apology.
Not an apology for her. Not an apology for her. Okay. That's hard, I mean, tell you something, people are going to have a really hard time with me first. Six, a true apology requires that you do your best to avoid a repeat performance. That's an obvious one. Yeah. You know, that an apology is not going to have meaning if you continue with that behavior. Do you repeat the behavior? Right.
And that can be very, very tough because, for example, if I'm apologizing to you for being so distant, but I'm a distancer, it's very hard to modify that. Or if I'm apologizing to you for being a pursuer instead of hovering and being a sort of boss that delegates, but then has to look over. It's hard to modify these habitual styles. But as we've talked about before, an apology has no meaning if you're repeating what your behavior is. But the behavior, it doesn't hurt.
Exactly. Okay. Seven, a true apology should not serve to silence another person. An example, I said, I'm sorry, ten times. Let's not bring it up anymore. Right. Right. Exactly. I hear that a lot. For example, in my work as a therapist around infidelity, where, for example, he says, I have told you, I'm sorry, over and over again, and you keep bringing it up. Are you going to punish me forever? And what did they say? They say, no. I'm just going to keep punishing you until I stop hurting.
That would be a very good thing to say. Right. It came up with that. I hope you don't have to use it. No, me either. But it's a good thing to say. Right. But very often, we do use an apology to silence people. So often, we use it to get out of a conversation. In fact, there's a joke among men. The joke is that, let me try to remember, I actually heard it first in Spanish.
So this must be a cross-cultural issue in this joke, where the joke is that the man should always have the last word in any argument or fight. And the last word should be, I'm sorry. I was wrong. You were right, dear. Something like that. I mean, it's not really a funny joke, but it has in it what we're talking about, that the woman is so difficult to deal with. She's going to over-talk it so much that the man is told just to apologize. I just say, I'm so sorry. Shut the hell up.
Shut the hell up. You know, I'm sorry, dear. I'm really sorry, I'm sorry. And that you're really saying that because you don't want to listen. Rather than saying what the man might need to say, because many women do over-talk things, you know, or over-criticize, that he might say, you know, I really want to hear your criticism, but I'm feeling flooded. So let's find another time to talk about it.
And I want you to bring it up with respect, and not like I'm a big jerk, but I can't talk about it right now and not in this way. But instead, it's easier to just say, I'm really sorry, I'm sorry. Did I complicate that? No, you didn't. I'm just some painfully close. Okay. Eight, a true apology should not be offered to make you feel better if it risks making the hurt party feel worse. All apologies are not welcome. Right. It's not an apology if you're apologizing because you need to heal.
You need to lower your guilt quotient, or you're working the steps, you know, in AA. But the other person really does not want to see you and doesn't want to hear from you. And that's what needs to be respected. And apology is not for you. It's not to help soothe you. It's not to lower your guilt question.
If I've said to you, let's say we're a boy, you know, boyfriend and girlfriend, you were my boyfriend, and I'm breaking up with you and I'm saying to you, you're having a hard time hearing it, it is over. And at this point in time, I need space and I do not want to hear from you. You're feeling so anxious, you're wanting to send me emails of apology and flowers and slip notes under my door. No. When someone really doesn't want to hear from you, be respectful.
Be respectful and that includes not apologizing and explaining yourself and saying you're so sorry when the other person really doesn't want to hear. God, you know, I'm going to go back to lesson one when we talked about the three gifts of the apology. I can't decide whether it's amazing and I love it or it's pissing me off. I cannot get over how much apologizing for the apologizer is about self-respect and integrity. It is not about what you get back. Right.
It's about doing the right damn thing. Right. And the right thing, if someone says, you know, contact or I don't want to. Is respecting no contact? Exactly. All right, last one, this should be in like kindergarten curricula across the world. Okay. The apology, shoot. Let me do it again. Last one. Do you want me to do this? Yes, you do the last one. Let me do the last one. I can barely speak it. A true apology does not ask the hurt party to do anything, not even to forgive. Not even to forgive.
Okay. I want to take the forgive part off for a second and just go before we even talk about forgive. A true heartfelt apology does not ask the hurt party to do anything. So what about this? I apologize. I made that shitty comment when we were getting ready for dinner tonight. It was insensitive and it wasn't thoughtful. Now, let's go to dinner. Get ready. Well, I would like you to leave a little more space because I felt I didn't even have time to react to your apology.
I felt you just wanted to go to dinner. Because we're not at the end. Right. So you wanted, you did that because you wanted to go to dinner. So I'm not going to go to dinner with you, Brené. You have to do better. But we're late for dinner. They're expecting us. I'm just going to get to dinner without you. Well, actually, I might get to pens. You know, I might, you know, for me, the mature thing might be that I'll talk with you about this later and we're going to go to dinner.
But apologizing to get the hurt person to do something. Well, for example, when I apologized to Steve for overreacting to the five ripe bananas, I really wanted him to say at that point, yeah, you overreacted, but I made a stupid mistake and I won't do it again. I wanted an apology back. That was an example of wanting something. But you can't set that up as a prerequisite in your heart. You can set it up in your heart. For example, when we give an apology, of course, we would like forgiveness.
We want the other person to forgive us. An apology is not a bargaining tool for which we get something back like forgiveness. Very commonly, if I apologize to you and then I too quickly, do you forgive me, Bernadie, you forgive me, you don't have time. I'm cutting your process short to sit with it and to see whether you have some leftover anger or pain. So you know, that is a hard one too. The true apology doesn't ask for anything back for oneself. How did that corner of apology get?
I like your term corner of apology. An apology is not an end to the conversation. That's what's huge here. An apology is what de-intensifies the situation so that two people can move forward and we will have room for further conversations. You know what really drives nine home for me? Because I kind of get the forgiveness piece. I get that I can apologize. It's important for me to apologize and disconnect forgiveness from that. That I just need to apologize whether forgiveness is coming or not.
The part that really is hard for me that I think I actually do sometimes is when you said apologizing is not a bargaining tool. Sometimes I think I apologize to get some shit done that we need to get done. I'm sorry. Now let's go do this. I'm bargaining. I will apologize if in turn you will get back to normal so we can go to the movies or you can get back to normal so we can do this. As opposed to saying I'm apologizing for true heartfelt reasons regardless of what happens next. Right.
There can be both. You can give a heartfelt apology. And of course you can also feel I really want to de-intensify the situation so that we can move forward and go to the movies and not be stuck on this. So one can do both. But in the purity of being in the apology corner, one doesn't ask for anything. It's a bad giving. It's not your intention. Your intention for the apology is not to get something you want. Right. In a heartfelt apology is that true? It's not your primary intention.
It's not your primary intention. So I could say I really apologize for making that critical remark and we were getting ready to hear it. Right. It's heartfelt. Right. Exactly. And then I could say I hope we can move through this and find a way to go to have dinner tonight because I think it would be fun. Right. Absolutely. But if we can't, I understand that too. Right. Absolutely. That's good. Brunei, wow. Wow. You can teach me. You're good. Yeah. But you know what? That's really good.
Yeah. Okay. Brunei, we have to take a break because I want to teach the audience proper banana buying because this is what I try to teach Steve and all of you. Okay. And it's worth the price of admission. Okay. I want to tell you what I do when I buy bananas. Five bananas, I take them off different like banana bunches. So once going to I can eat tomorrow for breakfast and then the other, I figure out how they're going to ripen and I pull them off the stem.
I've said the way this is not unethical. This is not like a wrong thing to do. You don't have to buy them in the bunch. So this is like an extra thing that I would like to teach. All right. So you have the nine greatest challenges of your life and a quick tutorial on bananas. So it takes the banana tutorial and run like the wind. This is so good because you know what this makes me excited about this and this is probably really selfish and somewhat maybe not.
It makes me excited about not what I can do for my relationships but who I can be. Yes. Who I can live in alignment with my values. Right. Exactly. I hope you got as much out of that as I did. I was worn out when we taught it the first time and I'm reinvigorated and recommitted. I mean, I just have to keep hearing this stuff over and over. When I'm learning it, I'm like, I get it. I'm going to do it like this forever.
And then I'm listening to it now again and I'm thinking, man, talk about the backslide. Whoa. Part two will be this Friday. So get ready for that. Stay tuned. It will be coming in a couple days. Do some deep breathing between now and then. We got this. Unlocking us is produced by Brunei Brown, Education and Research Group. The music is by Carrie Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. New episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app.
We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. Support for this show comes from SACS. At SACS.com, it's easy to find your new vibe, like making vacation your whole personality with a camp shirt from Casablanca that screams Italian holiday. You can shop SACS.com for everything on your agenda, whether it's Swade Prada loafers for a dinner party or a bright theory blazer for the office.
Find inspiration for your new vibe every day at SACS.com.