Hello, hello, hello, Typology friends, Ian Cron here. Once again, as you know, the podcast on which we explore the mystery of the human personality and the human adventure through the lens of the Enneagram. I'm joined by the inimitable, the wonderful, the exotic, Anthony Skinner. Well, you got it right when you said exotic. I don't know about living Exotic. How are you doing, Ian? You got some family in
Yeah. We celebrated Thanksgiving late and Christmas early this year because we didn't want to ask our adult children to endure traveling on those weekends. So, we brought them all in this past week, and it was a hoot, right? You know my family. So, we have me, an Enneagram 4, my wife, an Enneagram 9. You have my son, Aiden, who is an Enneagram 7. We have my oldest, Cale, who is an 8. We have my middle, Maddie, who is a 9. And we had Maddie's husband, Paul, who is a 7. And Cale's partner,
Buddy, who is a 6. So it's, it's really like an Enneagram salad here during the holidays. You know what I'm saying? It's like dress and toss. It's crazy. It is It just depended on the day. Okay. Because we played, we did, we played pickleball. We went and played indoor putt, putt. If you want to see the Enneagram in action, go play indoor putt, putt with your family. Okay. And I'm going to have to take you to this place. Cause it was insanely great. I have to
say it was insanely great in downtown Nashville, total win. Um, and this leads me into the reason I'm so excited about our conversation today, because we have on with us today a person who has written two books about the Enneagram and the first is "Take Care of Your Type: An Enneagram Guide to Self-care." And their latest book is "Take Care of Your Friends: An Enneagram Guide to Interpersonal
Relationships." And I thought, this is a great opportunity to talk about how to take care of family, friends, and yourself during Christmas. What Perfect topic. I think it's the perfect way to, have you said the name yet? Did I miss it? Not yet. I'm coming up on it right now. It's And with no further ado then, let us welcome Christina Wilcox, author of Take Care of Your Type, Take Care of Your Friends. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to...
The segue from indoor putt-putt to me is just how I want to be introduced from here on out. Good. I am a putt-putt champion within my family, so it actually worked very You'll be happy to know that I dominated in putt-putt this year. I won. That's amazing. It was a big moment. Big It feels, it's one of those things that feels good to win. Yes. Well, I'm a self-preservation four so winning actually does
Yeah. It's, it's real. All right. So Christina, you are an Enneagram six and we always begin by asking our guests how they discovered their type and what, what difference it made in their Yeah, so I mistyped originally. I became exposed to the Enneagram through a worship leader at the church I was also singing at growing up, and he was a four. And he knew that I was very much interested in psychology or just personality type stuff. And he was like, you're
definitely a four. You need to take it. You're definitely a four. And so I took the test, and I actually did get a four. And I always caution this to say this has nothing to do with fours or four traits. But when I read the description of a four, I think it was honestly very upsetting to me at first. But again, not because of fours. It was because I realized that who I was internally wasn't being understood by the people around me. I didn't realize that that's how people were interpreting me,
and it didn't feel very authentic to who I was. So I actually swore off of the Enneagram for a long time because it upset me so much. But then I eventually found my way back to it, and also mistyped again as a three. And once I actually started putting in the work for like just started going to therapy and really digging into just some things I was working through. That is when I discovered my true type of being a 6. And also, throughout that time, I had moved away
from a very stressful environment that I was in. And I found that that roadmap of 6 to 3 in stress, it explained the mistype for me in that regard. Because when I do get stressed, I do tend to very much lean into a lot of 3 energy. So I felt very relieved to finally experience the Enneagram and the impact it can have for me as an individual because before, throughout all this time, I was like mistyping and trying to figure out
my own type. I really became hyper fixated on how it was helping the people around me and how it was helping me understand those around me, how, I don't know, just even relationships I saw that started implementing it as a tool in their life. I just became hyper fixated on it, which is why it's, I just want to say really cool for me to be on this podcast. I've been a long time listener, like way before I even started having any sort of digital footprint in relation to the Enneagram. So
it's very full circle for me to be here and I'm very grateful. But yeah, I have found that now that I know my true type is a six, It really felt like a mirror, and that I was finally seeing things that I hadn't been able to see previously when I was mistyping. So the mystery to me still is why this person who ostensibly knew you well
mistyped you as a 4, and it sounds like this person wasn't alone. It sounds like some other people jumped on that bandwagon as Yeah, I think so far my curiosity towards that has been because I tend to lean into a lot of three traits when I'm stressed. I would say the main one being the adaptability of the three to be a social
chameleon in a lot of ways, or just like acting. I found myself in a lot of groups, probably just due to social anxiety, to be honest, of just taking on traits of other people in the moment. And so once I also started working through some of my social anxiety, I found that I wasn't mirroring the people
around me as much. I think the stereotype that a lot of people hear about in regards to four, and even with this person that I was around who was a four, I think just simply the fact that I was I am a very creative person and I enjoy art, I enjoy media conception, and I love to share deeply and go deep with people, be emotional, feel
emotions deeply, and share that with others. I think that in his understanding of what a four was at the time, I think he just thought that because I was willing to sit with him in certain places that I had to be the same, I think. Or it could have just been because we were both on Anthony can tell you from personal experience that being on It is. Oh my gosh. I could do Truly. So you're not the first six who's talked to me about social anxiety. How did that show up for you and how have you
I came out of the womb with social anxiety. I remember when I first started going to therapy and actually like seeking answers for some for the struggles I was facing in my life mentally. I remember people asking me, whether it was a psychiatrist or a therapist, when do you remember your anxiety beginning? And I was like, I have no recollection of a
life without it. And I think with Some other things, I have ADHD, I am neurodivergent, and there's a lot of social anxiety that comes into misunderstanding social cues or being misunderstood in general with just living with certain setbacks. I think that how the six and diving into being a six has helped me unravel that social anxiety is how much of it is based on the lack of trust within myself because of those challenges. Right.
In situations growing up, even within childhood, of realizing, even in that, that because of my social anxiety, how I wanted to come across wasn't actually what I was desiring. I think that knowing I was a six helped me to see the root of why a lot of that social anxiety manifests. It really does at least come down for me with relating So how have you worked on developing... Can
you give me a specific example of something that you do? This is for our sixes who are listening or for anyone wrestling with social anxiety. What are some, I don't want to say hacks because I hate the word, but The first thing that comes to mind, honestly, and it's not a fun strategy, unfortunately. It's very difficult and not always enjoyable. But the biggest help for me in my social anxiety has been exposing myself to uncomfortable situations and almost exposure therapy to things in a
way. Because I think the issue with me with confidence and trust in myself, it's believing that when I enter certain situations, one, if something bad happens, I don't have the tools within myself to know what to do or to overcome the situation or to feel OK or to regulate. And so I would say, again, it's definitely, I wish I had a less,
like, it's hard. It can be so painful to do this and it has been painful, but it's been the most rewarding of just actually exposing myself to the things that I'm afraid of or just in social situations of challenging myself. Whether it's to speak up or to kind of derail the thought train of how I'm being interpreted by someone, too. Just like everyone else in the world, I've been in a lot of uncomfortable social situations
where things happened that I wasn't prepared for. And I think, I guess twofold, putting myself in those situations on purpose to show myself that I do have the tools to overcome, or if I didn't in the moment that now I do. Almost like building a case for myself of evidence. Great. Just proving Yeah, well, I like it because what you're doing is you're practicing the virtue of courage and faith by thrusting yourself into those situations, which is antidotal to the
passion of fear. So yeah, it is hard, and a lot of the work of the Enneagram is hard. It's not easy. It's not comfortable because we're going in direct opposition to our patterns. And so when we do that, it's like resistance training in the weight room, right? We build muscle and we build confidence and we start to experience some of the fruits of it. All right. Well, speaking of social situations, lots of folks are coming up on Christmas and I want to talk about what is it like to take care of
friends, family, and self at the holidays? Okay. So what I'd love to do is maybe just do a quick, and I mean a pretty quick, because for time's sake, one thing that we can do to help each of our nine-type friends, right? One way of caring for them at Christmas. And if we have time, we'll circle back and talk about some self-care things. But I really want to talk about how do we love our family and friends at Christmas of each type. So let's just, we'll just actually
go in order. We'll just go in order. We don't need to do this in Yeah. I think something that, and I also would love to hear your perspective on this, just would love for you to chime in at any point because I want to
learn from you in this as well. But I think with ones and what I've seen with the ones in my life and especially digging into when I was writing this book about friendship and taking care of Friends, I noticed with ones just the amount of weight that they, just the belief that the whole world is on their shoulders sometimes and all responsibility falls onto them. They're the only ones who are going to notice the things that need to be done or notice, I
don't know, just walking into a room. I think you might've even said this and just seeing, thinking like what needs to be fixed or what needs to be repaired? What do I need to restore? And I think that for ones, whether it's an emotional load, a mental load, an actual like task, I think a way to take care of them during the holidays in any capacity is noticing what you could do to lighten that load and then just taking action on
it. Whether that be through a specific gift that you know that they would want, even like treating them to something they would never buy for themselves, but they've mentioned, or in a more, again, like emotional, mental sense of just finding ways to alleviate some of that
responsibility, I would say. It's cliche, but I do think You know, I think a mantra for ones at the holidays comes from the Buddhist teacher Thich Nhat Hanh, and Thich Nhat Hanh has a great quote or a great mantra that I encourage ones to use a lot. It is this, he says, smile, period. breathe, period, go slowly, period. So I'm always telling you Ones I want you to repeat after me, smile, breathe, go slowly, smile,
breathe, go slowly. And I find that for some ones, they can get out like other types, if they're particularly torqued, they get out over their skis, And it's going all too fast. It's all going too fast for them. So I'm always like, smile, breathe, go slowly. And if you can help a one do that at the holidays, that's Yes, for twos, a way to take care of them in any capacity during the
holidays. Again, some of these may sound repetitive or cliche, but I just, just, I think creating a space for them to share with you what their expectations are of you or from you, I think is very impactful. A lot of twos, again, just they hold a lot of expectations of the people around them, just because they're expecting people to have the same capacity for empathy that comes so naturally to them or compassion that comes so naturally to
them. Just that clear communication of expectations during the holidays for twos I think is a great way to take care of those friendships and make sure that they're I don't know, holding up okay. Not every two is a host, obviously, but a lot of those types of responsibilities, even because
they enjoy it, I've noticed tend to fall on them. So I think just being able to create a space where they feel safe to check in and be So one of the things I was going to say with my, my two mother, one of the things that I. do that I find really helpful is telling her that what makes me feel really good and loved is time with her as opposed to acts of service. That really helps her loosen her grip on having to do all these activities and frees her up to
be really present with me. So I find that to be really helpful in my So I have another quote. Yes. Because I think this happens with twos. So twos oftentimes harbor in their imaginations how things ought to be, right? And then they try to create the environment and the relational connections that will produce the outcome in their mind. Like this Christmas, you know, it's going
to be this, it's going to be that. And there's a great expression and you know it, it's that, you know, expectations are resentments waiting to happen. Yeah. Expectations are resentments waiting to happen. And if you can just say, I'm going to let go of my expectations of this being the most loving, wonderful Christmas that ever happened. I'm responsible for hosting it. It's like, let go of your expectations, right? There's so much you don't have control over, so just let it go. Just
Threes. I think with threes, something that I found to be super interesting in trying to figure out how to take care of them as a friend, a lot of the threes that I was even talking to online of just trying to understand how they approach friendships, I think there is in a way that's similar to ones, but not exactly. A lot of threes were saying, I feel like my friends don't keep up with me, or we're not going at the same pace, and I just wish they would catch up to me. And if they don't catch up
to me, I'm just not going to be able to think about them. It's very much like pace is very on the top of their mind in what I was
uncovering for this book. And so I think, I guess my challenge to threes and also friends that are threes, similarly with the theme of expectation of just threes being able to slow their pace a bit to allow the people they love to catch up with them in a way because I think that that's what a lot of threes want and crave but there is that fear of slowing the pace and I think that also friends and family being understanding towards them in that way, and being flexible with what they're expecting
from threes as well, emotionally even maybe, is super The Oscar Wilde quote we used to end this show with all the time, "Be yourself, Be yourself, everybody else is already taken. So one of the things, one challenge to threes that Christmas could be, do not post on social media the pictures of your perfect, incredibly successful Christmas. Do not, you know what I mean? Do not post photos of your family that give the appearance that you're just living your best life
ever. But just maybe just decide that no social media at Christmas. As you said, slow down your pace and be yourself. Everybody else Oh, no. I was actually about to ask you, as a four, what is something that you wish friends and family, even during the holidays or during this time, better understood about
you? Or what is something that would be helpful as Yeah, so fours, social fours in particular, can get all hung up on thinking about Christmas past, and idealizing Christmas past, and then sometimes idealizing Christmas future, and then not experiencing Christmas present because it's kind of always a little disappointing. Yeah. Unlike a one, they're not thinking about, oh, this is what's wrong with this Christmas.
They're thinking, this is what's missing this Christmas. So I think that's one thing that for sure fours can be like, I'm going to actually be present and grateful for this Yeah, that's wonderful. I did a post recently about the practice of gratitude
for fours of just, I 100% agree. I do think there is this way to appreciate the very mundane, simplistic things of whatever reality looks like for you this holiday season Yeah, I had the same thing, like honor the longing, that sort of sense of longing for maybe what was past or what was missed or what's missing while helping the four enter into the present and appreciate what it is. Well, I was just gonna say, fours have an exquisite connection
or sense of the passage of time. And so they can be very, you know, Anthony, I always think about the Japanese, I don't know if it's the Wabi-Sabi tradition, but the picture of the what are those trees? Oh, cherry blossoms. In the Japanese tradition, cherry blossoms just falling off the tree is a sign of shift and change. And how foresee of cherry blossom tree shedding, and they go, oh, the passage of time. They get all caught up in the reverie of it. And it's like,
all right, let's just get here now. Let's just Yeah. I think quickly with fours too, something I would love to challenge friends of fours even is kind of what you were saying, Anthony, is honoring that longing and passage of time. Because I know for me, as someone who is not a four, entering into that space would actually be very beneficial for someone like me during the holidays to connect to that longing or even just like missing someone who I've lost or
something I've lost. Those feelings come up for everyone, regardless of type during the holidays. And so I think something that could mean a lot to fours, I imagine would be acknowledging, not just honoring, but just acknowledging that longing of like, yeah, that is extremely valid. That's something I admire about Forrest and would love to incorporate for myself, for Yeah, that's actually well said. I think Advent is the season of longing. It is the season of
waiting. It is the season of, and most people don't get this in non-denominational churches, but in liturgical churches, we really focus on the idea of darkness, actually, at Christmas. Waiting for the light. That's why so many fours love the old carol, in the bleak of midwinter. There's something to that, actually, that fours are very attuned to. Great. That's a great question. I am a very strong wing five. So I feel, I guess, more confident in talking about what exactly would be helpful
for them during the holiday season. But I think, of course, they are very much in their head. But I feel like with something I don't think people realize with fives and with them being in their head is that it's not just in a, contemplative or reflective way. It's in a like almost problem solving all the time in their mind, but not actually doing
those things in real life. This is a random example, but my husband's aunt during Christmas, if you go over to her house or any holiday, regardless of who you are, whether you're the most extroverted person in the room or you are like the angsty teen in the corner who is annoyed at everyone, she'll have
a theme for the holiday party. pick a hat from the box and you have to wear a hat like there's not it doesn't matter who you are you have to kind of step into this laughing at yourself in a little little bit like leveling the playing field and I think something that's really impactful for fives, but also I guess as someone with a really strong five wing, I always appreciate opportunities from friends and family that just allow me to like get in my
body. And that could be something as simple as like, let's all take a walk or let's all, I don't know, just something to enter into the more physical aspects of Christmas, I think is a great mental break for fives during No. Well, yes I am. Uh, but I would say this is something I've found to be true. Cause I've done, I've done little surveys along the way, but I think one of the most common phrases regarding a five during holiday season, let's call our Enneagram five,
Bob. It's like, where is Bob? Because Bob disappears all the time. And I'll say this, I have a brother who I suspect is a five, and I think he catches a lot of hell for disappearing. And I think it's good just to give fives grace, like,
Yeah, I think there's always a fine balance, right? Like if I know a five really well, maybe I might say to them, so know that privacy is really important for you for recharging and that there's a lot of stimulation in terms of music and sound and lights and all this stuff going on at Christmas and lots of people around. It's very draining, right? At the same time, sometimes I might say to a five, are Well, ouch. Got
Yes, sixes, my fellow sixes. I always think it's so funny how it's always said that there are so many sixes in the world, and yet I don't see a lot of six representation often. So I'm happy to be here to talk on behalf of my fellow sixes. And this is very specific, more specific than the other tips so far. I think I recently read a book called Wintering by Catherine May.
And not only do I highly recommend that as a gift for sixes, because it is all about leaning into the solitude of winter, kind of as you were relating to fours. It leans into how to prepare for winter physically, emotionally, spiritually, but then how to allow yourself to simply be
in winter. I think for me as a six, I feel very anxious about being prepared for what's next or even understanding what is happening around me all the time, this need to like fully compute all the relational information, all the physical information, just so much input. I think as a six, this book was super helpful just because it did lean into that need for preparedness, but it really challenged me to what if you took moments in full solitude and didn't try to, I don't know, mentally do
gymnastics while being in the solitude. It's crazy how fast and alive a six's mind is. And so my friends growing up used to say that my spirit animal would be a duck because on the surface I come across very, like I'm just gliding on the water, but underneath my feet are going a hundred miles per hour. And so I think just with friends and family, the acknowledgment that that is happening, that even if, because not all sixes, I think, are visibly anxious
in the way that people would expect. So I think making space for yourself to be in solitude and to process and to not prepare or brace yourself all You know? Great. We've got to move. We've got to move. So let's get Yes, sevens. I think with friends and family, a way to take care of sevens is to honestly really lean into their love of celebration. My best friend is a seven and she is so genuinely interested in doing all of the things that would, she
wants to knock off everything on her holiday bucket list. She wants to experience Christmas to the full. And I think for a lot of types that can be very daunting and overwhelming. And I think leaning into that joy with them is something that's very appreciated, but also helping them remember, um, that if they do feel nostalgic or sad or grieved, that there's space for both the joy and the grief. Nice.
Eights. You know what? Just in the theme of straightforwardness with eights, I think just letting someone else take the lead this Christmas, whatever that looks like, whether that's someone doing the tradition that you've always done, or someone volunteers to do something that you would prefer to just do yourself. I think one, as friends and family, having grace for that being difficult for them to let go of
is very crucial. But I think just as an eight, yeah, just allow yourself to let go of the reins and see what happens. I think that there's a lot of hypervigilance with eights as well, similarly to six. So I think Yeah, allowing You know, I think too with Eights, now I'm just giving tips a little bit to each type, right? But at the holidays, I would remind Eights that not everyone needs to know their opinions. Like sometimes with an eight, you know, like I've seen this in the dynamic of
my own family, right? Sometimes, especially if they get bored, they can get provocative. Yeah. And begin to stir the pot more than everybody else wants it Oh my gosh. Well, so my daughter May is, she's either a seven with a hardcore eight wing or eight with a hardcore seven wing. I don't, But I just, and she's just
such a leader. I have so many examples of this, but I remember one 4th of July, we were all watching the fireworks and it's, and it's these two, my family at large and my best friend, his family at large, the kids have grown up going to the lake together for decades. We're all sitting there, we've done this for years. We're on 4th of July, we're watching this huge fireworks show. Boom, boom, and everybody's, oh, oh, oh. And all of a sudden, Mae just starts, she
just starts talking and everybody gets quiet. She's just owning the moment and she's just, I let her go for a minute and then I just let her say, that's enough, Mae. She goes, but I'm so bored. It was 100% out of her boredom. She was just dominating the moment and stealing this. And then once she goes, okay, and she gets quiet, and all of a sudden it's like, ooh, oh, everybody's acknowledging the fireworks again. That's so good. That is
Yes, nines. I think similarly to fours and perhaps just withdrawn types in general, a lot of the nines I know love nostalgia at Christmas and bringing out the photo albums, watching through home movies. And I think that as a friend or family member of a nine, like a level of honoring this for them, I think is very important because I think it just genuinely means a lot to them to look
back. But I think similarly to the tip for the four, would be finding ways to bring them into the present, but also not simply merge into the background of the holiday season. I think finding ways to stay grounded in moments that, again, whether you have the most beautiful, peaceful holiday gathering in the world or something unexpected happens, I think just finding ways to Be grounded, not abandon
yourself. And as a family member or friend, being aware of if a Nine is abandoning themselves, I think Yes. Wow, this has been so helpful, everybody. We've been talking with Christina Wilcox, author of the books, Take
An Enneagram Guide to Self-Care, and her most recent book, Take Care of Your Friends: An Enneagram Guide to Interpersonal Relationships. Christina, thank you for Yeah, thank you so much for having me. You can primarily find me over on Instagram at Christina S. Wilcox. I have a couple other social platforms as well, but it's all the same username, Christina S. Wilcox. So yeah, come say hi. I love chatting in the comments and DMs. And yeah, would love to
Our pleasure. And listen up, everybody. I'm closing out today with an oldie but a goodie. Be yourself. Everybody else