Welcome to another episode of Turning the Table, sponsored by Benchmark 60, Turning the table as the most progressive weekly podcast for today's food and beverage industry, featuring staff centric operating solutions for restaurants in the hashtag new hospitality culture. My name is Adam Lamb and I'm a career coach for chefs and hospitality professionals. This episode is one 15. How do you put the pieces back together?
We ask that you share the show with someone you care about who can find this. Useful and leave a review. And I'd like to welcome my co-host, Jim Taylor, Benchmark 60 morning Adam. How are you Jim? How are you Ben?
I'm good.
And I'm glad, I'm glad to hear you finally got some rest, cuz you've been running the candle at both ends with the new child and Yeah. You know, running the business and everything and I thought we would start with some listener mail that we got That's, Yeah, it's pretty potent stuff so. The male goes like, Hi, I came across your podcast this morning while looking for some hope in the hospitality industry. First off, that's a really powerful, that's a really powerful first, mm-hmm.
statement, you know, looking for hope in the hospitality industry. I love the hospitality industry so much. I've been in it about every position in the restaurant business. Your most recent podcast made me feel vindicated after feeling defeated, something I don't feel very often. I stepped into a situation where blank. Her direct report has treated the team so poorly that everyone is ready. I was beginning to think that maybe my expectations were too high. I don't mean of the staff.
I mean expectations for upper management to just care a little bit about the employees and about training staff to succeed at their jobs mostly. I just really wanted to thank you guys for doing a podcast that speaks so openly about the mental health issues and the restaurant industry and retention of good employees and the importance of good management. Wishing you all the best. So first off we wanted to say thank you very much. Mm-hmm. , it's kind of a courageous email to.
Because Jim, I know right before the show we were talking about, both of us have actually been in this similar situation, and I think that, yeah, if you've been in the industry long enough, you will run into this situation while you're you know, either have to clean up a mess that someone has left or to be kind of wedged in the middle of the situation where you see obviously a deficit in, in leadership such that the staff has been kind of traumatized.
And that person is probably still on staff somewhere very often. You direct reports. So there's a lot of there's a lot of needles to thread in this conversation, so I just wanted to first start by saying or asking you, have you ever been in a situation where you had to walk into an operation that had clearly been mismanaged or misled? And what were a couple of the first things that you did while you were. Yeah, I, I
mean it's, there's lots of scenarios that, and I think we need to address the fact that, you know, sometimes as in in management positions, we go into a scenario where, you know, we could either think it's been mismanaged or the team thinks that it's been mismanaged. Right? And I think what we're trying to chat about today is those scenarios where the team feels like it's been mismanaged because everybody's got opinion on how on operations should run. Right.
. You know, I think there's a couple of scenarios that I was involved in in my operations career where, you know, you start a new position and the team comes forward and just says this, you know, things need to change or we need help, or, you know, we're happy there's someone new here. You know, whether you know them or not. And you know, I think that my approach to trying to work through and navigate those types of situations was always just based.
, nothing matters more than making sure that the team is comfortable and feels supported and happy coming to work every day. Mm-hmm. and I, I think that that's, you know, more, more apparent now than ever with, there's places that are already tight for staff and losing more people, you know, isn't an option. So, you know, I think, yeah, I've been in that situation a few times and it's never easy to work through because it doesn't hap, it doesn't change overnight.
It doesn't, Those wounds don't heal over. You know, I think you mentioned you've been involved in some of that before
too. Yeah. And I guess that's a great point that you're making. You know, how do you make a differentiation between say, you know, they often say the squeaky wheel gets the grease, so there might be a couple team members who you might not necessarily feel familiar with yet that are very often the first ones to kind of like talk. Meetings and say, Hey, you know, we really need help. We need this, we need that.
And it's hard to differentiate whether or not that's the truth or that that's just their opinion. Do, do you know what I mean?
For sure. And, and, yeah, it's, it's interesting to go through that process and trying to differentiate, like you said, between the person who's just. Vocal and the person who genuinely cares about, about the rest of the team and change and, and, you know, moving the business forward. Right. And, you know, I think that this is something that we talk about pretty much every week. You talk about it in your business.
I talk about it in my business and just trying to find ways to do a better job of protecting the employee experience and the career experience in hospitality. Right. And, and in this case, this is exactly a, a, you know, applaud her for sending through that comment because she's speaking about the exact same thing, but from her experience.
So let's, let's take the listener's position that she's been around the operation enough to know that there's, you know, that people are walking around with their, their heads down, their shoulders bowed, that there's not a lot of pride in the team.
That there's, you know, clearly a lack of, you know, You know, it's not, It's not for nothing that we say Retention is the new cool, because very often you can look at the statistics and know whether or not someone's been managing an operation well enough. And I've been known to say once or twice that you know, you can tell a good chef by his leaving.
Meaning that once he, he or she leaves and you take stock of where the team is, both emotionally and operationally, you can very often make a very clear distinction about whether or not they were really good at their job or not. Because let's face it, some people are very charismatic and very personally forceful and they can keep an operation running. Mm-hmm. although probably not to what we would consider to be the best form of, you know, Efficiency or productivity.
But you know, once that person is gone and they're out of that situation, then there's nothing kind of holding all those people together other than, you know, I guess in a certain situation would be either fear. But let's, let's say she's pretty clear about what's been going on mm-hmm. and yet that person that was responsible for that is still in the management structure somewhere. How does she even start to have a convers.
First off with, with her direct report and a, not make them wrong for what they did because that's probably the start of a very short conversation, but to be able to look at the operation holistically and neutrally such that they can come to some type of consensus about what it would look like to move the team forward in a cohesive manner. Yeah.
You know, we, we were having this discussion with a, an operations team the other day about, You know, looking at the business in terms of the feedback that's come forward, the ideas that have come forward, the concerns that have come forward and actually trying to paint a picture of what would the perfect operation look like and, and be really objective about the feedback that they're receiving and try to, you know, create.
Specific you know, ideas and things that we can work on every day in order to get to that perfect operation, you know? Mm-hmm. and remove, you know, the, there, I always found that when I was in that mid-level management type position, my job was to filter information filter. You know, negative feedback, constructive criticism from the upper levels of management that maybe, you know, and not their own fault, sometimes slightly disconnected with exactly what's going on. Right.
My job was to filter at some of that so that the team didn't feel it. Hmm. Right. And then, you know, like I said, really work on what does the perfect scenario look like every day, and work with the team on the, you know, in the field, on the ground every day to try to build towards that. Because it's, it's so tricky when the person or the people in the senior levels of leadership have one idea about what's going on and then sort of
gets filtered down, right? Yeah. I have some pretty specific experience around this that we'll get to in a, in a second with a story. But ultimately it comes down to if I'm hearing it correctly, wanting to protect the team. And I also get that the team may not necessarily be aware of those efforts to protect.
And I say this because I always felt that it was important for me to own the company line no matter what it was, because it's way too easy to go into an operation, say as well, the general manager wants to do this or upper level wants to do that, da da, da, and always kind of pushing off responsibility about what there is to do off to some unseen or unheard. entity. Yeah. Because I wanted to save my ass in front of my associates and not want to look bad. Mm-hmm.
yet I also got that, that's pretty much a victim conversation because there's no way I can ever influence what's going on. And pretty soon they're gonna start looking at me going like, Well dude, if you can't protect us, then what the hell you here for? Right. So sometimes it means owning that, that that bad news. As a decision that I was involved in.
Mm-hmm. , But I remember clearly plenty of conversations that I had with upper management, hr regional directors about specific staff members that those staff members never ever know and nor do I need to go there and, you know, You know, Hey, look at me. Look what I did. Because , that's to the opposite side of mm-hmm. , like making it all about hubris and me. And I've always wanted to make sure that there was a clear line of rateable performance.
Like, what are the standards and are you living up to those standards or not? And so that meant that I couldn't manage by, by personality, whether I was, you know, winning one for the team or taking one for the team. Does that, does that resonate? . Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. And I think the, you know, the things that we're talking about right now about protecting the team and about, you know, filtering information or how you, you know, what types of conversations you're having about the operation or the, the individuals working in it, you know, this stuff applies to every level of the business.
And I know I, I, you know, I speak for both of us when I see that we've been, we've both experienced all those different levels of management and leadership and, you know, in, in lots of different environments. So, I mean, myself, I'm not I'm fully comfortable saying that this applies to every single level of management. That it's about the team. It's about making sure we deliver messages in a positive as positive way as possible.
That, you know, everything that we go through in the industry, especially right now with the labor shortages, has to be. People centric. It has to be people focused. Cuz if it's not, it's only gonna get
harder. I I love the questions that are starting to come up in some posts that I'm reading. People advocating you know deeper sense of mentorship as opposed to leadership. And, you know, one of the first questions is, you know, how can I, what can I do to make your job? . And I, I know that that's a tricky question and I know that some operators don't want to ask that because either they've never had it easy and don't necessarily feel responsibility to like, make anyone else's life easy.
But I keep coming back to this idea of what it would be like to actually be in the operation by myself, . Because, because that's all that's left. And so I think speaking to our listeners quandary. It's like when you go to speak to your direct reports and saying, Okay, so what kind of operation do you see that's possible? And, you know, I don't want to necessarily have to make a call around to the other departments because I'm short bus boys and, and I need somebody on the floor. Mm-hmm.
. And so painting a picture of what the possibilities are probably lends itself to a bigger conversation about, okay, so if that's what's possible, what do we actually need to. Yeah. What support do we need? Right? Yeah. Right. And you know, there's another part to this entire conversation that, that I'll get to in a minute. But this is one of the reasons why you and I talk so consistently about values. Mm-hmm. and standards. Not necessarily as.
From an organizational standpoint, but from an individual's standpoint, you know, this person as a hospitality professional. Yeah. Next week we're gonna be lucky enough to have been able to wrangle Jensen Cum. Onto the show, which is always a gas. And the topic of the show is what do you stand for? So in a lot of my coaching, that's exactly where we need to start, is what do you stand for? What's important to you? What are those incorruptible values that you have?
And then how do you match that with an employer? So now this particular associate is in this position where she probably feels like her hands are tied a little bit. She stated quite clearly that, you know, she's been coming home and feeling kind of defeated. Mm-hmm. which is a feeling that I know very well. And just say, I'm sorry that you're going through that right now. , and there are a couple ways in which you can turn this, not necessarily to your advantage, but your team's advantage.
But the only way that that's actually gonna work is if you're focused entirely on the team and what you can do to so assist them. And it may be as simple as, , you know, having more shift meetings, you know? Mm-hmm. and saying, Listen, times are tough. During Covid I had several meetings a day with shift personnel and there was very little information that I could share, cuz none of us knew what the hell was going on. Mm-hmm.
, and yet the job still needed to be d. So I think that, , like putting yourself out there as a barometer for what's happening in the operation and in the community is important because where else are they gonna get that information? And even if you don't have the answers mm-hmm. that you ask the questions. Because very often what we're finding is that one of the very top reasons that people leave an organization is because of communication or lack thereof.
So. What would you suggest as far as like trying to hold this team together for the short term? Like what, what do those conversations sound like? Well, in,
in that level, you know, where this individual is at, they're in a, it seems to me like they're in a, in a mid-level management mm-hmm. position, right? Yep. And one of the hardest things that I was found in that position is the, the balance between. I'm reporting to somebody whether I agree with what they, the direction they wanna see the business go or not. And then there's all of these people that are relying on me every day. You know, deliver for them. Mm-hmm.
and, you know, that only gets harder when you know you're in a position like she's describing where she's feeling defeated and that type of thing. And, you know, me personally, the way that I always tried to, to work through those situations cuz they happen and mm-hmm , they come up. Was that, you know, to recognize that my wins were the team's wins. Right?
If an employee had a great day and I had anything to do with that, or I, I talked them through it, or we worked on something together, we provided training or development or mentorship for them, then that was a win for me. You know, and, and I sort of tried to feed off of that type of stuff. because looking. In a scenario, like she's talking about looking upwards for that motivation apparent. It's not happening right now. Right, Right.
So there needs to be other ways to stay, you know, stay, stay focused, and stay centered and stay, you know, with your, with your eye on the price kind of thing. Right. And I think in that scenario, that's really tricky in that position where you've got, you know, that mid-level type
responsibility. Yeah. I think. And this is not the first time that this type of conversation has come up for us especially since the show started. And unfortunately for some folks when the disconnect is so significant and the polarities are so far apart, then it becomes a time of really thinking about yourself. Yeah, About your, your own mental health, your own physical health, your own emotional health. And it may be necessary to seek that type of. Congruent employment elsewhere. Mm-hmm.
. And I hate to say that because I, I even spoke to a chef the other night where, I asked him, what does he really like about being there at this particular organization? And his answer was, he would feel guilty leaving his team. So he never really, he never really gave me a positive, but what was, what was present for him was this feeling of like, guilt and maybe shame about the fact that he, he's, you know, done the good, done the good job. Brought this team together.
He's had family members bring other family members there to work with him. Yet his first emotion was not wanting to leave because he felt guilty. Yeah. And I so resonate with that, especially after a time spent really coming from your heart and building a team because you know that that's what's best for them. And their own emotional security or emotional. But at some point, man, you, you have to be clear-eyed about the fact that, that you've gone about as far as you can and, Yeah.
Yeah. Just a quick story. I took over a I was asked to, I'm sorry. I was gonna apply for a particular position at a, at a retirement community here in Asheville. And at the time, the person that was in the. Position currently wasn't leaving for a while, so I was asked to go in and do an assessment of the culinary operation. So after about a week, I spoke to everybody involved and it was clear that there was some really let's say unproductive behavior going on.
So the chef and the food and beverage director who shared an office space didn't. Rest of the organization to know if there was any dysfunction in their department. So very often they'd say, Okay, understand the problem, we're gonna take care of it, and it would never go any further. As a consequence, none of the sta, none of the staff felt comfortable going to human resources, which is there for a particular function, and none of the problems ever got solved.
So these two individuals were kind of codependent with one. and they ran the department so tight that it was a Chinese fire drill every day and people were just walking around with their heads bow. I mean it was really sad. Yeah. The way everybody was. And about a week after I put my assessment in, I got a text from the chef saying, Haha, I got a new job. And bailed on the tire operation. So I was asked, Hey, can you come in and bridge us from chef to.
Hmm. Just to let you know, food and beverage director position is we found somebody for that. So I'm like, fine. And then about three weeks later they told me that that person had ghosted them and I ended up doing both jobs. So they said, Hey, do you wanna stay here and do the job anyway? And I said, Sure. Formally, and this organization had grown from, you know, basically a hundred residents to 650 residents in the space of about six.
So they were operating it as a kind of mom and pop, yet it was large enough, a hundred people in the department. Yeah. But there had to be certain structures in place that didn't exist before. So there was no standardized job classifications. There was no standardized pay. Everybody pays was going all over the place. So for me, the first thing that was going in there and just getting everybody around a table and saying, Okay, so these are the issues. This is kind of like the line of.
And this is what we can get done. And it took long time to get, say, job classifications done, because everybody wants to have their two sense in. But during that process somehow I lost the faith of my direct report. She started shopping outside the organization for someone to take my position and then not telling me about it. But the point being is that once I lost her confidence, then it was virtually impossible for me to move the operation.
One of the most important things that we were able to introduce and, and still happens, there is a complete second day orientation. So, an orientation period might be something that's easily doable. You don't, necess don't necessarily need a lot of buy-in from everybody to make that happen. But from the standpoint of the new hires, they knew exactly where they were gonna slot in and what was expected. and how they could move through the organization.
And those three things were really, really important for people to just kind of like, not worry about where they were and what was possible. Yeah. And that's why I say, you know, this is a great time for everyone in the industry to really consider what's important to them. You know, what's kind of in volatile, like things that they're not gonna give up. Like, I need transparency, vulnerability, and honesty. . Yep. And you.
Remembering that you're not the one that's, you know, yes, they're interviewing you, but you're also interviewing them. So maybe stick around and talk to a few people, you know, as the shift ends and talk to some employees that are still working there. And they're platforms out there, employment platforms that have reviews of employers.
And so these are all kind of part and parcel of the, of the coaching moving forward as people start to figure out where they most want to be and, and, and looking for the organizations that are gonna take them there. That's the one piece, like being very, very clear about what you stand for and where you're gonna go to, to be able to be incongruence with that, and then finding yourself in a situation where, Jim, like you said, it could always be that it's been just a rough couple years, right?
? Sure. It doesn't, doesn't necessarily always need to be mismanagement or poor leadership. It could be the supply chain has been broken. It could have been covid, it could have been a bunch of different things, and now you're, you're presented with a situation where you've got anywhere from 10 to 30 to 50 to a hundred people who are looking to you to bring them all together. And again, what's step number one,
Yeah, I think, I think we're on the same page that step number one is talk to your people. Step number one is check in. Step number one is, you know, ask people what they need and ask yourself what you need. You know, you made a comment a few minutes ago that I feel like I can't not touch on, and that was the, I feel guilty if I leave my team. Yes. Right. We, we talk about retention being the new cool all the time. Stick around out of guilt, that's not cool. Stick around out of fear.
That's not cool. You know, stick around because it aligns with values. Stick align because you, or stick around because you feel protected by your employer. Stick around because you know you're passionate about the mission. That's the, the part of retention that's cool. Right. You know, I think that we need to, that goes for both employees making sure that they are aligned with the values and the mission of the organization they work for. And that goes for.
People who run the organization, making sure that they're doing what they can to protect their people so they don't feel guilty staying, I mean, that's not good for anybody,
right? Aaron Fish is just chiming in, good friend of ours. Transparency and honesty, It seems obvious, but it's not always there. And mm-hmm. yeah, this idea of over-communication I, I don't think can be understated. And yet you might have some people in your team who are. Like, dude, that's just a bunch of words. Like really, where's the action?
And unless we're throwing ourselves into the breach of a particular operation, it's very hard for people to, I should say, it's hard to gain their trust and confidence if you're not willing to jump in and do the things that are the most. You know, uncomfortable for you. And you know, I'm a big fan of mopping. I love a good mopping . Jim Taylor: I didn't know that about you. No, I, listen, it's good to know.
It's kind of kind of the the movie with Jim Carey about meeting God and he's just, you know, a janitor mopping this perennial floor. There is something to be said about manual labor, especially in times of great change. You know, there may not be a whole lot that you can. Operationally to change things, but if you're willing to roll up your elbows and grab a mop or do whatever that looks like, it's it's empowering to your staff.
Yeah. And at the same time, you're going through this discovery process about what's important to you. You know, you could also be doing that with your staff, and it may be that that means some of your staff leave and that's okay. People leaving an organization can be a, an incredibly positive act and reinvigorate the organization with people who are coming in with a much more enthusiastic attitude. And I, I liken it to, you know, infecting the organism with positivity, right?
? Yeah. You get enough people in there of the same mind connected to the same thing. Again, this can be done through, you know, really great hiring processes and, and really in depth conversations with potential staff members. But it could very well be that you start bringing in staff members that are more aligned to how you view running an operation. And after a while they start infecting everyone around them. . Yeah.
That, that mopping thing, I mean, I have, again, I have to go back and comment on that. I can't be without . I can't, I can't let you get away with that one. Okay. For one, If I ever have a chance to come to your house, I'm gonna expect that you have really clean floors. Yeah, you gotta but that, you know, to me, that that speaks to a certain approach around the, you know, the whole concept of servant leadership, right?
You're doing something that you don't have to do that nobody expects you to do, but it's gonna make your team's life easier. And sometimes it's the simplest things.
You know, the one that, and for anybody who might listen to this that ever worked with me, the one that I, the thing I always tried to do was and another partner of ours, Doug New Hill, Kim and I were talking about this yesterday, taking tray trays full of dirty dishes away from staff and just taking them to the dish area so that they can spend time with their customer. That was, I always used to find it so funny, the look that I would get if I took a tray of dirty dishes away from an.
They would look at me like, What are you doing? What planet are you from? You know, and, and it wasn't anything really serious that was going, you know, change their day dramatically, but it just made their life a little bit easier. So that was something I always tried to do. I don't like mopping, so that was never my, my go to . Adam Lamb: No, but I mean, you bring up an excellent point and I know that look that you're talking about, you know, all of a sudden they feel that arm get really.
They're not expecting that and the trade disappears in their head. Like, what? Yeah, they gotta turn around. And I, I feel it's necessary to kind of hammer this point. None of this stuff costs money, right? And none of this, none of this costs any time getting it approved by upper management, right? And it could be that you start a relationship with a staff member that extends beyond this particular location and employment. It could be that you start.
You know, pulling together a cadre of people who really respect you and will follow you to the wall, as they say. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, they, they're waiting for your call three months later. Hey, I've landed on my feet. Here we go. And are you ready to make a move? A hundred percent. And you know what, the funny thing about it that I always was, I shouldn't, you know, this might be the wrong word, but I was always entertained mildly by the conversation that that.
You know, and Aaron Fish is now saying his was jumping in the dish, in the dish area to help clean that up or mopping or grabbing the tray. You know, it wasn't about, I, I can't tell you how many times I had to explain to staff, I'm not doing this because you didn't do it right. I'm doing this because, So you don't have to, Right, right. I'm not mopping cuz the floor's dirty and I'm annoyed that you're not doing it. I'm mopping. So you don't. I'm trying to help make your day easier.
I'm trying to help make your job easier. Right, Right. It's different. There's a difference there.
Well, and after, and after a staff has been beat down and thought that everything was an indictment on their work performance, to have somebody come in that just wants to help might be an initial shock, and to be able to have that second, Hey, listen, if I'm, you know, busting your tables or whatever, it's not because you can't get to it, it's because I want to make your. And so you don't have to, right? And Doug's just chime in, sail, nailed it.
You know, bend an extra arm, leg, even brain if you need to. Whatever you can do to alleviate their stress and smile while you're doing it. And to Doug's point, I haven't always been really good about smiling while I'm doing it because I'm feeling the pressure, like they're feeling the pressure. And I might be, you know, dripping down for that second, you know, and making more of a point of buzzing around the dining.
Grabbing trays or busing tables so that my staff can actually reset those tables, reset those tables, and take care of the guest. And it's not always intu as intuitive as, as as doing the dirtiest job. Sometimes it's looking and see where the greatest need is. Absolutely.
But it's all about protecting your people. Yeah.
Yeah. And you know, to just to. Again, kind of hit hammer the nail. You know, Benchmark 60 and its productivity metric is one of the best ways to protect staff, especially if they know that you're actually doing it. Because again, there are some things that you're gonna be doing as a manager that's not necessarily important to share with your staff. But if your staff knows that you are actually deploying a technology that will protect their workload such.
The opportunities for them to be overworked, become less and less. And not only that gives us an opportunity to staff the restaurant appropriately. That's gonna go a long way into making sure that that staff feels comfortable, protected, and, you know, they're not gonna jump ship to a quarter or 50 cents because they probably can't find that anywhere else. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, we, we've had lots of interesting discussion with, with restaurant operators lately. , there's so much conversation happening about work life balance. Mm. Great. Resignation, work from home, all these different things. Most of that conversation is on the life side of the conversation, but that workload thing that you're talking about is, is focusing on the work part of it. Mm-hmm.
, because it's, it's kind of a loss if you go on vacation, you know, let's say there's an unlimited vacation. , which is awesome, but every time you go on vacation, you come back to work and you're stressed the minute you get back,
right? Because everything's just been piled up on your desk, , right? If we can
prevent that through managing workload and looking at things differently that way, it's gonna make the employee experience that much better and, you know, improve retention. Yeah. So that's a, that's a discussion for
another day though. Another day and chiming in Jemma's focus has always been the lobby and bathrooms. Because as a customer, that's my first point of contact. And yes, it doesn't really matter whose name is on the checklist, , to go in there and to make sure that not only that it's getting done, but that you might. Actually do something to alleviate someone else's rounds. And I'm really grateful for all our friends and listeners, Aaron Fish, Doug Jemiah.
We actually had a first time listener Lathan, Sandy Gumby from From Africa, Cape Town, South Africa. So the message is getting out there. Like our listener who wrote into us, Please dm. Either Jim or I send us an email. We'd love to know what's going on and how we can provide content that's really going to serve you. Because this show is all about solutions. Yet, we know that sometimes you can't talk about a solution until you can identify the problem.
So thank you very much for joining us for this episode of Benchmark, Our sixties, Turning the Table, and just some programming notes. So next week we're gonna have Jensen Cummings. We're also gonna have Michelle Moreno and and Kelly feathering him is has confirmed. Second episode with us for the ABCs. So we're really looking forward to that. So we've got a busy November, December, just like you guys and we're all in this together, so thank you very much. 1