110: Building Highly Effective Hospitality Teams

But before we bring them on, I want to introduce my cohost, Jim Taylor Benchmark Sixty.

And so I think we'll end, end up in some interesting discussion about one of those, or both of those types of you know, opposite ends of the spectrum today. So, looking forward to the discussion.

Because we've been dealing this, you know, probably I I, as far as I know since the eighties and I know chef Ryan had. An industry interesting comment that, you know, this has been going on for centuries and has its roots in the masculine feminine. So without any further ado, I want to add both Chef Ryan Dodge and Doug Newkirk. Yeah,

Because you've got teams that you lead. . Doug Newhook: Mm-hmm. . Well, I mean, there's a couple of different components. Motivation is obviously personal to that, that individual, right? You gotta dig a little deep to find out what gets them out of bed. You gotta dig a little deep to find out what are the things that kind of excites them.

And, and, and ironically, when I do my hiring process, I actually go right into that and I, and I really try to, Understand these people from the minute I meet them and I don't wanna understand them inside of a restaurant, I wanna understand them in their real life. So the things that motivate them aren't the service aspect of inside of a dining room. It's not the cocktails that they're pouring, it's, it's the things that they do outside of that establishment.

So they're able to bring a hundred percent of themselves into the room. So I start, the minute I meet people, my interview process starts with making it a conversation about them. And I want to know everything I can about them with within a certain parameter so that I could inevitably use that to help them grow. Nine times outta 10. People don't even know that they have that ability. They just, they just start talking.

And then there's the folks that tell you that they do meditation, you ask 'em about it, and then they kind of say, Well, I'm gonna, And then there's the folks that tell you, I like, I like to read and I read 13 books in the last month. And then you start talking about a book that they love, and then you're always able to reference that sort of dialogue later. Excellent. Chef, the question as you popped off was insofar as your professional experience.

What's the difference between motivation and inspiration?

Then there's the follow up to excitement, which feels like a juxtaposition, which is frustration and the reason that the frustration. is there is because the pitch that they were given that they were excited about isn't what it actually is, and I think that it does people a disservice to over bill the profound lessons that will be learned within hospitality or within this industry.

As easy or something that's gonna come, like a light strike of lightning to them in any circumstance, or elevate them immediately without putting in the work. And I don't think that we honestly do a good representation of allowing the process of work and allowing the process of learning to be a part of what we're sincerely selling in this industry. And so I would say the difference between motivation. motivation. You can motivate someone with money. You can motivate somebody financially.

You can motivate them with a future place in their career. If you do this, you'll earn that. Inspiration is living and demonstrating the example, showing what's possible. Inspiring that if I actually participate, listen and. I can achieve what this person is able to achieve through sheer grit will and determination. And so I think that motivation can be manipulation. Inspiration is genuine and authentic. . Adam Lamb: That's, that's pretty juicy.

And Jim, you know, you've spent 20 years, you know, building highly effective teams for one of the most progressive restaurant companies in Canada. What's your take on it?

That kind of comes along with that. But that, that thought process of when they see my name on the schedule running the shift, or when they know that I'm the general manager of the restaurant or whatever that might be, if they're not excited about that part, about working alongside, then there's a gonna be a problem.

That became a filter for me through my whole career and, and you know, still does around, if people don't love working with you, then you're gonna have a problem because it changes For me, it changed the way that I asked questions, gave feedback, promoted people, hired people, terminated, I mean, everything. Right? It was, and actually the challenge at the beginning was, B posed me in a way where I actually had to terminate somebody one day when I was a fairly new manager.

And this mentor of mine said, You know, I bet you can't. Well, maybe not, I bet. But I challenge you to go into that conversation with that person, with the intention that when you're con, when you're finished with that meeting where you're terminating this person's employment, that they stand up, they shake your hand and they say thank you. And for me, I was going. How is that even possible?

But I think that, anyway, that became a filter for me for my whole career around motivating, trying to motivate and inspire people to have a positive work environment and enjoy working

And I want to be conscious of, you know, our time, but I think it really would serve this conversation for you to kind of go into that a little bit, if you're willing.

And how that maturity shifts your outlook, not only as you as a professional, but the way you're connecting with everybody else. And you were talking about, you know, climbing this mountain of, because you motivate currently how many people are under that you are responsible for

I mean, you look at everything from grocery to fast casual to fine dining. These one off locations, these corporate locations, these, these places that do the same sandwich, day in, day out, the same salad, day in, day out. And essentially when we go to hire a lot of the time, what we've created is we've created a margin. Profitability margin that is so narrow and we can only afford labor. At a really opening rate.

I mean, it is, it is a disservice because we can't afford a lot of the experience or quality experience that comes in time with the industry. And as you acquire more experience, you grow. So we, we bring in a very base level, entry level experience, which ultimately leads to what's popular, which is. The fast casual simplicity is make it simple, stupid Doug, new hook term monkey with a football like that. Easy . And it's really dumbed down really the, the.

Other proposition of the dining etiquette for people to endure those experiences and say, I wanna stay in this industry. I wanna stay doing this. We've done. Industry a disservice because there's no attraction, there's no future, there's no feeling of tangible.

Like I've acquired a new skill that I want to grow off of where you can take it to another environment where people like myself and you guys have, have grown our, our livelihoods or our, in, in this industry where we've had experiences in the, the highest level, Milan, you name it, across the country, across the, the, the world and experience those kind of experiences.

That that isn't being realized in this kind of modern quick service, fast casual environment that is, is showing people what other, We talked about this to a length yesterday, and I think maybe this is where you were taking me, was like mentorship, somebody that you learned under, somebody that you learned this skill, The etiquette, the verbiage, the technique. I mean, when I watched Joon and, and Julia Child, I imagine.

No one in, in this generation's interested in listening to these two people like fumble through this old classic technique and, and building a bouquet garney and spiking pearl onions with clothes. I mean, I, I don't, It's, it's gone, It's lost. Completely lost in translation. Shit. Comes in a bag and you heat it in a microwave. Mm-hmm. , like, I don't, I'm not getting juiced up by, . Yeah. Yeah. That the bare minimum.

So here you have somebody who's worked his tail off from the ground up, still throwing on the apron, still working the line with the team, still getting to know their names, and then remembering them when he comes back. You know, I think one of the things that we have done a poor job as an industry is that we don't make the. The roles that we hold look good.

And it's something that do, and I used to say all the time, like, you know when, when you have a leader or a manager or somebody in the zone who just doesn't enjoy it and just allows their mental state to take over, they're not glorifying the role and making it attractive to the people that may have it in the back of their head. Hey, I think I'm gonna be good.

One of the things that Dodge and I used to really just bring to the table was like, you gotta figure out a way to navigate around yourself so that you can make this feel and look appealing to not only, you know, the, the team members, but the, the customers or the members. And then internally it's gonna make you feel good in the long run cuz you know, you do, there's a certain component of acting and fake it till you make it that you have to provide.

But there is a level of, in order to motivate or inspire someone, You gotta, you gotta battle through the adversity and you gotta make it look good. And then you got a guy like Dodge, who at any level of his career, slaps on an APR and, and goes into the back and stands next to the, the, the guy that just started two days ago and remembers his name two months later.

And that's a certain thing that a lot of people, when they get to a certain level, they won't even think about the na, the apron, the name tag, the uniform, and him, And I remember we drove up to Boston four hour car drive from new. And we just spent two days working his own with a bunch of kids from Massachusetts and it was the greatest two days ever. He was on the line, I was in the front.

We were just doing our thing and, but what that brought was a level of inspiration to the people around us. I mean, there's a guy that we worked with that day who's currently a director of operations with, with Ryan. So I think that there's a certain level of ownership that managers and leaders inside of these four walls need to understand. You gotta figure out how to make it look good if you want to grow people with you. And then ultimately, It's gonna help you battle through those tough times.

And how do you make them feel as, as valuable as say, you know, the sous chef or the first cook who's the sharpest knife in the, in the drawer, but might be, you know, Exhibiting some uninitiated behavior, right? Mm-hmm. and might need to have somebody pull him underneath his wing and say, Hey it's time to smarten up brother. Cuz you know, your skill's only gonna take you that far. Mm-hmm. chef.

Listen, if somebody's completely satisfied, In their life, and they're satisfied in their hours that they work and they're consistent in their job. And the only time that you need to like really check in on them is just in passing because they've got it on lock and they're not looking for anymore, which I've had those employees and I, and I love them, and they're the backbone. They're the under, they're the underdog, like superheroes of our industry.

People don't see that, don't, don't, aren't looking for accolades, but you, you find a way to include them in your own journey and in your own life. And I think that for me, continuing to be curious, continuing to be a seeker and an understanding of different concepts, different. Process different for me recently, and I've shared this with you in, in Adam, you and I connected on this experience where you did 75 hard and had this profound kind of you doing 75 hard.

And sharing that experience with somebody, like in the process of the Daily Connect and where you're at with that, we, we have no idea how impactful that is for that person to think about their own life and outside of work, what's important and the value that they take forward and challenging themselves to do other things. And I think that my personal, what I've been successful with Feeling successful with, with myself is continuing to grow.

And as I grow, I can observe around me an environment that's created, that's a nurturing environment for others

Well, it, it

So I looked at these people thinking, A, I want to be like that, and B, I'm terrified of this person or this image, or whatever it might be. Whether it was the chef or the owner or something. Right. So I'm actually curious about how. With 3,500 employees. I mean, if I'm a new employee in your environment, I'm terrified. Right. Just knowing that. Mm-hmm. How do you, how do you bring that down?

What, what do you have actual go to things that you try to do to, you know, soften that experience for people so they don't tiptoe

You may turn off the gas, but you it's, it's something that's coming for you every time. And it goes to the front. It goes to the back. There's theft, there's an, there's relationships, there's harassment, there's, I mean, you name it, we, we deal with every element of life from human resources to internal. Problems and, and we deal with people as they come. They, they don't necessarily leave their shit at the door.

And so one of the most difficult things I think for us is these elder statement is to remain humble. And the story that you were talking about, Adam, I believe you mentioned it or touched on it, is like, I started in the dish room, I remember at 14 years old in the pizza place coming in, getting trained in by a guy who, who was more interested in smoking heaters on the back dock than doing any of the dishes. And I remember thinking, Man, that that's gross and I don't wanna do dishes.

And I remember. All the waitresses and waiters and people coming back that were like looking at me like, Aren't you gonna do the dishes? And I was like, Not only am I gonna do the dishes, but I'm gonna fucking throw down on this space. Like I'm gonna make it so that you wanna come back here. I'm gonna make it so that this is the coolest little area to hang out. Not, not that back dock. We're all used , so.

There's an unhealthy aspect to the industry that's almost encouraged, whether that's the alcoholism, the drugs, the, you know, some of my best experiences where my, my, my experiences with those things. Don't get me wrong, I wanna acknowledge that that's a rite of passage. I believe in some certain, in a certain . Thank you realm. I mean, it's a R of passage. I don't want to be over, over like, Saying that I'm judgemental toward that at all because I'm not.

I'm actually, I encourage everyone to experience what the industry is so that they know that there's a future beyond it. Because the burnout ratio, again, like I said, is high and it is in every aspect from dive bars to American standard cuisine to the fines. Five star Michelin restaurants from standards to execution to just the overall amount of hours of sleep you get from being on your feet for 16 hours.

I mean, you're looking for the, you're looking for the pill, you're looking for the relief. And I get it. Once you graduate from that and you can find like health and balance within boundaries that you create, you trust other people. Because what I've done in that looming large piece that you were just touching on and I wanna address is, If I'm there, like all, eventually people will be like, Well, he's here so he'll take care of it. He has the answer.

So it's almost as if I'm keeping them from making the mistake or making the decision, or learning how to make a solution oriented decision on the spot. Because if I'm there, then my voice is gonna be louder than everybody else's. My solution's gonna be the stamp. I, I've been here, I I have this, You need it and it's your turn. And so you graduate to a, from a certain level. And if you don't trust people, then you don't allow.

If you don't trust that, they're gonna fail and figure it out from the failure which is in, which is our industry. And a nutshell, failure and figuring it out. Go give somebody a rib eye and tell 'em to cook a medium rare for the first time. It doesn't. They don't know New York strip versus rib I versus filet versus terrace versus short ribs. Like they don't know these techniques. They gotta teach 'em. So how they get, and we gotta trust 'em. That's a big risk for us. That's cost.

So we wanna overman this solution all the time because we don't wanna risk it. But then we never move forward and they don't grow and we continue to kind of have that looming where that looming figure. We should be a looming figure in that. What would he do based off of what I've seen, but allow them to grow and learn. Well put,

But if each of you were to give one particular tip that's worked for you, maybe somebody's got an operation, they're short staffed, people are starting to get burnt you can feel the threads starting to spin apart. What's one or two actions that they can actually take going back in and pulling everybody together if, if only for the short term. Knowing the risks the problems.

I spoke to Scott Turner yesterday from Aden Hospitality where he's telling me that the, the energy crisis in England is so bad that these coffee shops are going from $2,000 a month in energy costs to 9,000 if they can find, And these guys are like, I, you know, I'm losing $4,000 a month. I might as well just close my doors. Mm-hmm. . So there's a lot going against us. There always has been.

Doug, what's one or two things that you could probably offer that might prove beneficial to bringing everybody together, if not in service to the mission and ins, service to one another? I, I

Every single person's name shakes, every single person's hand when they get there says goodbye to every single person when they leave. A lot of people just sneak out the back door and they're. And the reality is, I think that we have to start going back to humanity. Treat people like humans. Just be kind and be friendly. It's not gonna pay your rent quicker, but it's sure is, sure is. You're gonna make a, the environment better for those folks inside.

They all have to move this direction toward the, toward the same target. And if they don't know the ob, they don't know the obstacle. If they're not aware that we're up against prices that are gonna erode our margin, that may potentially keep us from having a business at all, then then. For whatever reason, they're just kind of going to continue to go through the motions.

But if you can, you gotta be able to share in a way that doesn't create fear or create competitive nature within the group, but you've gotta be able to be transparent. And I think the transparency of what we're all up against is one of the, being vulnerable to the transparency, not being a victim to it, but bringing everybody in so that they can offer up what their solution is, be heard by the group without judgment, without fear.

And if that's something that you're able to do and you have a group of people that are actually able to sit in a room and have a conversation, and this is an investment, again, like I said, you got, if you're gonna make an investment in energy, you better make an investment in your people. If the people that are working together can't communicate in a room talking about what we're up against, then they sure shit aren't gonna be able to do it.

When the, when the fire is on and when the orders are coming in, how are you gonna be able to do it then if you can't do it? So I would bring the people together. I would offer up what we're up against. I would allow them to understand and articulate back what's at stake and what are we gonna do about it.

And I would empower them and give them the autonomy to make a decision that moment, whether they're gonna go into this thing with me, or if they're gonna hit the street now because we are not going into this thing with weak links. We're going into this thing or we're not. You're with me or you. And I think it's that easy. I think people get to make the choice. We're desperate. If we let people come in that are dragging us down, we're desperate. We've given up.

So you're either gonna go in this weekend and fight with a group of people that are there to fight with you, that have your six, you're 12, you're three, you're nine, or you're going in blind. And if you don't have Hammerhead 360 peripheral, then you're gonna get.

And my name is Ryan Dodge, and you can, I, I guess that I, I'm not on anything other than LinkedIn, but yeah, to your point, you can get ahold of Doug, but I, I literally intentionally do that. I'm not trying to personify some sort of fraud, and I, and I worked for Gary Danko back in the day, and one of the most profound things, we went to the Masters of Food and Wine. It was the 21st annual Masters of Food and Wine in Carmel, California, and it was the last one.

That they did and it was a great experience and it was early in the days of Top Chef. Do you guys know the show? Top Chef? Sure. Mm-hmm. . There was a contestant that had gotten booted from Top Chef early in the, like, first or second season that was there, and literally was making a fool of themselves. And I'll never forget coming off of the initial, like we did a cooking demonstration for Gary's lobster, Chef, Chef Deco's lobster dish in front of 500 people. He was signing autographs.

And then I went into the kitchen and I literally set the tone for that day of how we were gonna do 500 plates of this lobster dish with a bunch of volunteers and interns and different things. But I, I will never forget that night as we were talking, cuz I was watching this person make a fool of themselves. And I said, Hey, you know, What do you think of that show? Top Chef? And he said, you know, Dodge, I, I try to avoid too much television.

I try to avoid too much of this these things that are asked to me because if I don't have control over my editing, then I may be giving off the wrong impression. And so that kind of stuck with me. And so I like to have control over my, my editing. So I, I don't have. Somebody else influencing my, or taking out of my message out of the, the intent of the narrative. So, Well, it's also,

But, you know, I think that I've had some interesting conversations in the last few days, you know, with everything from corporate to single unit restaurant operators. . It's really interesting as we head into the fall and into the winter in some, you know, parts of the world that this employee retention thing just doesn't go away. And it's actually, I think in some markets getting harder.

And you know, we say retention is the new cool all the time, but a lot of people have been starting to say back to me, it's not new and we need to find better ways and continue to build on this, you know, take good care of your people. And so, you know, going into the weekend, It's always like Chef Dodge has said a few times, it's, you know, if people aren't with you when you're going into the fire, you're, you're in trouble. And the fire starts probably around 5:00 PM tonight, Thursday evening.

Right. So, you know, I think just as much as we can influence the industry to just find ways to take better care of the people that are in it, inspire them, protect them. It can be, as the four of us know, a pretty awesome career, if you can, you know, figure out how to navigate through it. So start the weekend off right. I.

They're looking for the emotional cues on how they're supposed to react to their environment and to be able to stand up and say, you know, I thought I knew what the hell I was doing, but you know, I, I, I don't like, I think I have an idea, but I need, but I actually need you. You have a seat at the table, and I know that we're gonna be going into this over the course of the weekend and we're gonna be hanging on by our fingernails, but the dust is gonna settle.

And if we're not together then you know, it's gonna be much harder on everybody. So I couldn't agree more transparency, vulnerability, having these conversations. And again, to reference a lot of the, the recent studies, especially during the great resignation, one of the top two reasons that people chose to leave their current position was communication or lack their of mm-hmm. like, treat me like goddamn human being. Man. I'm not just a pair of hands, I'm not a shift on a schedule.

I have other things going on in my life and I'm not sitting here trying to encourage people to. You know, ex accept unreasonable accommodations from their staff because it comes down to we're in service. Mm-hmm. . But grounding that in a, in a respectful and I say, you know, a sanctified way cuz what we do really is really is a special thing and there's not a lot of people that are called to this. So the people who are called, I think we owe it to them to.

To be as humble and to be as transparent and vulnerable to them to know that, you know, as you progress in your career, you'll also see this. And so we've gotten some really great comments from folks Darren chimed in. Agreed. If you have a great culture, one of support, respect, and opportunity, you'll not struggle. Valentine said, I agree with Ryan on humility. Humility PAs a way to learn about people around you, feeling experienced shames another great conversation. Thanks.

So there is definitely. There's definitely an ear for this type of conversation, so I just wanted to say thank you. I know that we're over time, but I wasn't gonna stop it because God juicy. And I look forward, we look forward to having you both back. And I just can't tell you how grateful you know, speak for Jim, how grateful we feel that you took the time out of your day to be with us and to share your experience and your wisdom. So thank you very. Thank you.