[Upbeat theme music plays]
[0:00:02] Female Voice: Welcome to the Triple Bottom Line, where we reveal how today’s business leaders are reaching a new level of success with a people-planet-profit approach. And here is your host, Taylor Martin!
Taylor Martin: Hello! This is Taylor Martin with the Triple Bottom Line. For our first podcast ever, I wanted to tell you a little bit more about the triple bottom line and what it means to me because when you Google the “triple bottom line,” you can find a lot of different things and a lot of different definitions. But, you know, when I heard about it shortly after 2000… It was coined by Jonathan Elkington in 1994, I believe. But, when I found out about in 2000, I guess 3, I was blown away by the idea of really looking at a company in a holistic view. Even back then, I was thinking about sustainability. Sustainability and then the… the social part, the person, the people part was something I hadn't really thought about that well. But it opened my mind to that, and ever since then I always thought about it as like a three-legged stool, you know? I always felt like if a company had a really good sustainability process in place, of course they're going to have a good financial structure in place to be profitable to run a business. And then, if they also focus on people in the community in which that product or that company revolves around then I feel like that company is gonna be really successful in… in so many more ways than just… just money. I could see a company like that, you know, being what we call now, some timeless company- a company for the long term.
One thing I have always been blown away by is how it never really caught on. This is what, 26 years later, after John coined that phrase? And here we are startin’ a podcast talking about it. One of the reasons why I started this podcast is I wanted to talk to people that are in field, talking about it. People in the trenches. You know, business leaders, thought leaders, industry leaders that really are talking and working in that space, and maybe they don’t even know it. And maybe they are really focused on one niche of it. Maybe they are just sustainable or maybe they are just talking about profit, you know? But, when I hear conversations talked about, you know, the sustainability or ESG reports, CSR reports… I always feel like it’s such a high-level approach that it’s somewhat removed from what’s really boots-on-the ground… what’s happening there. The Triple Bottom Line podcast was born out of that because I know a lot of people in the industry. I have worked with a lot of different companies. I have been in the industry of graphic design, communications, marketing, investor relations, advertising, advocacy for 25 years now. And, I have helped all different types of organizations communicate and do all kinds of things whether it’s designing logos, brand building or brand rebuilding, restructuring, doing ads or advocacy campaigns on political hill. Sometimes within a 24-hour window when I was living in D.C. And working with corporations on doing annual reports, you know, or CSRs, ESGs… We can talk about that at another time.
But, anyway, I wanted to start this podcast to get that conversation rolling. Today, I am extremely happy to have Frank Tyneski with us. He is an industrial designer that I have known over the years. We always get in these really deep discussions about those three items, about the Triple Bottom Line. And, I thought, you know… Frank, I want you to be my first person to interview because we have already had these conversations so many, so many times over. Let’s invite the world into our conversations, and let’s get this ball rolling. But, first, I want to have Frank tell you a little bit about himself. I think he is like an industrial design genius guru. He is always talking about technology and what’s, you know, the latest thing happening, and I always enjoy our conversations. So, Frank tell everybody a little bit about yourself, would you?
Frank Tyneski: Hey, Taylor. First of all, I have to say how honored I am to be the first person that you invited to do this because I hold you to such high esteem. I mean, you not only talk about it, I mean, you live it. It’s part of the ethos., and I am perpetually inspired by you. You have been a big influence on my work, in fact, so I think we have this symbiotic relationship. This kind of push-pull relationship. We don’t always agree, but we always exit with provocative conversation. So, when we go to dinner, and our wives get along brilliantly so they’re, you know, they have to pull us away from the table… So, this an extension of that, and I am really excited to share our thoughts and ideas with, you know, whoever is on here. And just… I have to say just crazy respect for what you do and the quality of work you produce and the inspiration you give, not just to me, but to so many people, so ,thank you very much for having me on.
You know when I think about the triple bottom line… You were describing it as a stool, which, you know, is… I actually inverted it in my head where I was thinking of it like a pyramid, right? Like, these three pillars kind of lean on each other to form this, like, diamond shape, which is, you know, which is the strongest shape! So it is kind of, sort of indicative of the way we see our different camera views on things and but, you know, different but complimentary.
Taylor Martin: Agreed. Thank you for that.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just to kind of, for the audience, I mean… I am a designer of things and experiences, and I won’t go on a lot about what I have done. But, you know, while I have a mix of experience that includes everything from designing toys, to automobiles, to medical equipment for large multi-nationals and startups, and a lot of UIUX work and experience work. So, you know, throughout the ages, I have been, you know, grappling with a lot of the things that we talk about. We thought that, hey, how fun would it be to sort of share this in more of a spread spectrum sort of approach like this here with this podcast. So, yeah, you are going to fire questions at me, and I am going to stumble and try not to make an idiot of myself.
[Both Laughing]
[0:05:32] Taylor Martin: No, man. It’s all good. It’s all good. Thank you for being here and thank you for those kind words. And I am a little embarrassed by it, but I am just so happy to have you on here because, like I said, the things that we have talked about over the ages… And I know that I’m going to have you back for another episode later because, again, we are going to be talking about so many different things. But one of the things I wanted to ask you… And, this has been, you know, something I have been thinking about because it’s not so much you but what you think. I want to know, like, what are the top three things that I.D., directors, or designers are challenged with to make more sustainable products? Like, what are those three things, like those big three things, that they have to, you know, work against, you know? That they grind against…
Frank Tyneski: Yeah.
Taylor Martin: …to make it more sustainable?
Frank Tyneski: Okay. Well, hey, just to be clear… This is not, you know… This is very indicative of the natural conversation we had. Because when we touched base on this just moments ago, I haven’t given this deep, deep thought, right? Because it is not well-rehearsed. But three things do surface almost immediately in my mind, and I will talk about them a little bit.
It’s, you know… quality, cost, and location. So, I will take the first one on. You know, there is not a designer I know out there that doesn’t care a lot about the environment. There is this duality between, like, real high numbers… Like, wow I designed this product! And there is millions of them out there and then you are haunted with this thing and, you go, “oh my gosh! There is millions of them out there!” And then you start to think about that, volumetrically. Like, how many of those things are out there. What would it fill? What’s the, you know, footprint? Am I doing the world a service or a disservice by making things? And it’s a struggle not just I have. Every designer has this sort of haunting duality because we love to design beautiful things. We want to see our stuff out there. We want to enrich lives and experiences for people but then there is just the backend consequences about what we are doing. So, there is always this propensity. This sort of… I don’t whether its inherent to our nature or it’s born out of guilt? I’m not exactly sure. But we always want to put better products in play. Throughout the ages, I think, or ages… I think throughout, at least throughout my career… Both myself and my colleagues, we try to put sustainability products in the pipeline, right? Materials in the pipeline. The biggest challenge is that designers don’t own quality. And… And what does that mean exactly? I will try to explain it.
If I try to change a material that’s common in play, like, for example: If you are designing a vacuum cleaner, for example, like that might be made out of CYCOLOY, right? It’s just a material. It’s a version of ABS plastic and you don’t really have to know what that is, except the characteristics of that material is that you can run it into the baseboard of your wall, right? And your vacuum cleaner is not gonna fracture. It’s very flexible, very malleable, hides scratches, etc. Very different than, say, polycarbonate, which you would use in, like, your eyeglass frames or maybe the shield of a motorcycle helmet or something. So, the idea of just saying we are going to use a corn-based, you know, starch resin or something… It sounds good, and it might be good, but the challenge there is… The development cycle times for products are usually very short, which means there is not a lot of runway for the… for the mechanical engineers and the procurement people, who own quality, to get those products in play. So they are, like,” Look. We got 28 weeks of designing this product, Frank, and you’re coming at me with this poly-razzmatazzstuff that you want to use, and I get it. It’s green and we all want to do that, but you don’t understand. Like, if the product fails in the field, it’s on me” or “I don’t know that I can make that material optically clear” or “I don’t know if I can make that material behave in the way that you need it to behave to meet the design criteria we are designing for”….flexible, malleable, whatever the case may be… rigid or impact resistant, what have you.
And then there is the other overlay that you have sort of existing systems in place. You know, when you are molding products, and we are talking about plastics obviously, but you have things like mold flow and… And pressure and cycle time, like how fast the mold opens and closes and how fast those parts can be pushed out. And part of the total calculated cost, commonly call the BOM cost or base of material is, you know, anchored to existing information. Someone could look at that a part. It’s kind of like guessing someone’s weight at the circus, you know? If you do that all the time, you could look at somebody…
Taylor Martin: [Laughing]
Frank Tyneski: … up and down and go, “You know, you’re a 140 pounds. [Laughs] And be pretty close! You know… you’re gonna get close. But when you have these blind corners that you can’t predict… That is one of the biggest challenges.
Taylor Martin: What about the other two? You said… You said quality.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, so quality. That is one of the big ones. You know, designers’ kind of run their good ideas up the flagpole and they get so far as… They get to the people where they’re like, “Look. We are on a tight timeline. We can’t get it done in time. We don’t know the material characteristics. It’s high risk, and it’s not on you, designer, if the product fails in the field. It’s on me the engineer…” Or the quality engineer, so there are risks averse, right? Even though everyone is well-meaning. The second one is cost.
[0:10:20] Taylor Martin: Always, right? Always cost.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, I mean, you know… Obviously, like… For example, there are some great stuff happening where… One thing I am investigating currently is a powder coating material. And if anyone is not familiar with powder coating… imagine it like talcum powder. You… you take a metal part, and you charge it, and it’s charged with a negative or positive charge and…. And then the powder is the opposite charge, so it actually clings. The powder… You shake it. And the powder, like, clings to the material and then it goes down a paint line and its baked in an oven. And it gives you a perfect paint job. Very durable finish. Really great. It’s not very environmental, you know? If you have a barbeque grill, for example, it might be powder coated, and metal parts are typically powder coated. Very durable, like your old refrigerator in whatever olive green it might have been. It would have been a powder coated finished, right? The material now can be made out of recycled soda bottles and it could go, it could travel down the same paint line so unlike, you know, molding something that might require different mold pressures, different procurements and so forth and maybe different machinery. You know, powder coating is, for example, a sustainable option with recycled green material, but its gonna add cost, right? So, what that comes down to is peoples’ willingness to pay. What is unclear… You know, especially now… I think one of the things that we are gonna to be feeling… I am kind of adlibbing this right now. This kind of… sort of new idea that just popped in my head… Is that it might be more difficult than ever when we get into more cost containment economy with certainly everything that is happening. People are becoming more cost conscious.
Taylor Martin: Mmhmm.
Frank Tyneski: So, they are looking for value and unfortunately, you know… Value comes with, you know, what’s already been commoditized so lots of competition for materials. There’s, you know, mature supply chains in abundance, and everyone is competing. It’s those other, you know… It’s those other green materials that often carry a premium. I often have been an advocate, personally. Although, I don’t know. [Laughing] I’m sure material people would argue with me, but if you could make virgin materials that are not recycled… The… At a cost premium, right? To make recycled materials more attractive.
Taylor Martin: Right.
Frank Tyneski: Then you could achieve a balance. So, you know, if I am going to buy a brand-new Mercedes or something, a high-end automobile, maybe I don’t want my wheels to be made out of, you know, recycled aluminum, right? Maybe I have… Maybe there’s a cost premium for, you know, virgin materials.
Taylor Martin: You’re talking about, like, a tax? Like a tax on…
Frank Tyneski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, potentially, sure. I mean, you know… We have to do something about it. We… we are on a spinning rock with finite resources and, you know, and there isn’t sort of… I feel the same way, by the way, about architecture. I mean, it’s cheaper to go tear down a forest and put up a new building then it is… The tax incentives are… are… are better than it is to, you know, regentrify a community that it’s in decay, right? So, you know, it’s another illustration of how we really need to re-think, in my opinion, underscore in my opinion, how we should, you know, consider how we might do that. And then the third one is location. Location. Location. Location.
Taylor Martin: Mmmhm. Of course!
Frank Tyneski: Here is a real-life scenario. You know, one of my first careers was designing toys for Fisher Price, which is ironic because all these years later, I am designing… I am designing products and leading design for Kids2, another toy and gear company. I love doing the work because it’s so challenging, but when I was a young guy at Fisher Price and junior designer, the factory that made the stuff we were designing was across the street.
Taylor Martin: Hmm.
Frank Tyneski: So, you know… We would… We would go grab lunch and, like, go across the street and, like, go see our stuff going down the line. It was exciting, you know? To be a junior guy, you know, and see your stuff converting ideas into raw materials. And I remember one time… This was in a different location at Motorola where I later went. Same, same thing. Still pretty junior in my career. I thought I was a hero because I took some snaps out of the assembly or actually I took screws out and added snaps. But, you know, the guys with the red rags in their back pocket, working on the assembly line… They were like, “hey, are you the designer? And I was like, “yeah.” You know, I was really proud of myself, like, I’m the guy, right? And, they go, “come here,” you know? And they showed me how the decisions I was making as a designer had an impact on their assembly process. It was really hard to do that. You know, you had to snap one of these things together. You do, like, three of them. No problem. You do it for eight hours, and your hands want to bleed, right? So, there was this direct corollarybetween designing and manufacturing, this sort of ying and yang of thinking and doing, right?
Taylor Martin: Mmmhm.
Frank Tyneski: The challenge I have now is I am hard-pressed to find a designer, like, hire a designer out of school, design school, that’s even seen a factor factory. [Laughter] You know, they might have… You know, where my generation, a Gen Xer… I spent time working in and out sort of Cleveland, you know, different odd jobs and picking up factory work or whatever, getting experience. You know, the factories were around. So, even if… even if you didn’t work in them, you were at least in proximity to a factory.
Taylor Martin: Right.
[0:15:00] Frank Tyneski: But, today, I just can’t afford to send a junior designer to Xiamen, Dongguan, Shenzhen, wherever the case may be… Taeipei. You know, to see where these factories are. It’s… It’s, you know, 19 hours away, respectfully, and it’s probably a rolled-up cost of, like, you know… If you figure 2 weeks, you got, you know… You got hotel, and you got travel. It’s 10 grand, right? So that’s… you know. Op ex wise, that’s really expensive, so… You’re… You’re young designers don’t really carry the opportunity to sort of trading and interfacing with the factory to learn how to design sustainable products.
Taylor Martin: Well… what about, like, 3D printing? Doesn’t that allow some sort of mid-road view of a product or is it just not the same?
Frank Tyneski: Absolutely. It’s a great topic. 3D printing is… I’m really passionate about 3D printing. I was involved with 3D printing while at Motorola when… when a 3D printer that was kind of terrible [Laughing]. I mean, it was… You can buy a MakerBot now for like 400 bucks that is way better than what we paid $1,500,000 for in 1993 and that sounds like a long time ago, but it’s really not. So additive manufacturing really is 3D printing and addictive manufacturing is really happening, but right now 3D printing is really more about 3D prototyping because the post processing involved in taking the 3D printed a part… I want you to think of 3D printing in like almost like a deck of cards. It is like many layers of cards, which means it kind of like has a grain to it like wood, right? So it could be very strong in the Z axis but not so much in the Y so you know it has it’s own limitations, but 3D printing has definitely reduced the cycle time and the subsequent waste because you can print parts and validate your designs with less machine time, less waste, less shipping, etc. We have got a 3D printer that prints a full-size highchair, right? It is pretty shocking and pretty good fidelity, too.
Taylor Martin: Wow.
Frank Tyneski: So, we can validate and test our parts. Now I really think the… the… the golden nugget, and there is… of 3D printing. Is when… If I astral project what the future might be, and this kind of science fiction, but it is actually starting to happen… is that when you are able to re-grind the material… when you are able to take your winter saucer sled, right?... at home and re-grind and turn it into an Adirondack chair, right?
Taylor Martin: Right. Right.
Frank Tyneski: Now, it’s like… Now you’re like oh wow we need more chairs this weekend what don’t we need? What could we? Then then the actual material becomes a form of currency, right? So, you can image how cool that would be when you could re-grind the material and re-print it. But there is companies doing amazing stuff with 3D printing, but it is corner-case in terms of 3D printing for manufacturing. There is some really great stuff happening, but it still got a long way to go.
Taylor Martin: Yeah, so… But in terms of, you know the location aspect of it… Does it shrink the problem? Like, you mentioned earlier, like, how you walked across the street and you checked out this product and you took 2 screws out of it and added 2 snaps instead. If you prototype something, would you know that? Would you have known that fact?
Frank Tyneski: Absolutely. Yeah. And 3D printing… It’s not unlike when I learned how to design. I had to learn how to draft. [Laughing] When I was at Fisher Price, I remember… I had to draft a roller skate. Now if you have never drafted before maybe this won’t be… It is really hard to draft a roller skate because it’s organic, right? So, then CAD came along, and it was, like, didn’t want to learn it. Really hard. And, like, you know… I was, like, but you got to learn now. Learn Japanese, right? [Laughs] Well, I didn’t go to school… I like a pencil, and I like my eraser guide, and I like my drafting table... But it turned out that, you know… I want you to think of like, you know… 3D printing is like what CAD is to drafting, right? The displacement. But 3D printing has certainly closed the gap, made things more efficient, and validate designs much more. But, you know, the other element of location, and I think the big game changer for location is going to robotics. I think the future is going to be build where you sell. And there is some grumblings of, you know, some indication that, you know, some offshore investments of Chinese and so forth are buying up burnt out factory spaces in Detroit, in Buffalo, in Cleveland, my hometown. Where the Russ Belt might be re-thought… where your Nike shoes might be built in the town you live in, right? By a robot.
Taylor Martin: So… So, they’re buying these buildings in anticipation of something like this? Where we can have things built more locally and they wouldn’t be all, you know, shipped over to China and then manufacturing, moving parts all over the place and raw materials?
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, I’m… That’s what I’m hearing. I’m hearing that people are quietly investing in what that opportunity is. I don’t have any direct connections there, but what I think is… You know, factory space that can be bought really cheap, burnt out factory space, you know, in the Russ Belt area where you’re on a waterway, right? Where you have what could be a really effective distribution center could be the places where they get re-hydrated with…with robots…
Taylor Martin: Mmhmm.
Frank Tyneski: And they become lights-out factories because, look… Right now, actually a few years ago, probably five years ago, I came across a robot that could de-bone a chicken.
Taylor Martin: [Laughing]
[0:19:54] Frank Tyneski: Now, when you think about that… Tons of variability, right? So, you got chickens that are generally, you know… That’s a messy business. It has a high rate of turnover, you know, in the workforce and it’s dangerous and sloppy and there’s tons of variability. So, once you can do that, right? Then it becomes, like… Well, are you gonna have a FANUC or an ABD robot, you know, replacing what is now known as cheap labor offshore? Because when I look at the FOB or freight on board costs in the lead times of doing stuff, right?... just in time manufacturing that you see in your grocery is gonna come to the supply chain of your local Target and Wal-Mart or your local Amazon, right? It is going to be, like, wow these things are made… Not only to do they come to ya in like, you know, 24 hours, [Laughter] they are still warm from the factory, right? Because it’s not that far away.
Taylor Martin: Right, you know… I mean, they are doing it with, like, food now with vertical farming indoors so there’s no pesticides, insecticides, and things like that. But, you know, I always worry about, you know, what kind of air environment are these plants growing in? Because, you know, I get into the… the weeds, if you will. No pun intended. But…
Frank Tyneski: [Laughing] Yeah.
Taylor Martin: You know, like, the bacteria that’s in buildings because, you know… That is whole another topic in terms of like I wouldn’t call it sick buildings, but you know… different buildings and different interior spaces that don’t always have different types of natural bacteria and if those indoor growing zones don’t have good air flow from outside then they’re not gonna get a well-balanced bacteria that ends up going on the on the plant, in the plant, and of course being digested from you.
Frank Tyneski: Mmhmm.
Taylor Martin: Before we go another further on that because I know we can just keep talkin’ and talkin’ and talkin’, and I love that. But I… I wanted to ask you, like, you know… If you could wish… If you could just wave your magic wand, what one thing would you change in your industry to make things more sustainable?
Frank Tyneski: How to make things more sustainable? Well, I kind of brought up this analogy in a talk I was… I just gave recently so maybe I will re-hydrate it. If there were some way for us to be more conscious… I watched this movie called Free Solo. It’s about this guy, Alex Honnold. I think it’s Honnold, I think, his name is? Anyway, he climbs… He climbs El Capitan without a rope [Laughs]. It’s terrifying to watch, right?
Taylor Martin: Yes, I have seen that.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, and, and… The thing is it’s a really incredible movie because, you know, he goes up as high as he can until he hits an impasse and then he has to sideways and down, right?... to find another way. You know, not being a mountain climber, I thought you just keep going up. How hard can it be, right? Turns out, it’s a lot harder than that. I think our economy, our ecology is headed into that impasse where, you know, we can’t go any higher, right? We can’t… We can’t consume any more, and I think as a globe, as a… As a nation, it’s not gonna be comfortable for anyone to go sideways and down, right? Which means…
Taylor Martin: Right.
Frank Tyneski: We might have to take some compromises. We might have to take it in the shorts and maybe think about how we have fewer things of better quality. You know, I think there are some… some shocking metrics out there. I don’t have the data in front of me but, you know, there are more mini storages now to store peoples’ extra stuff than there are McDonald’s or… [Laughs] It’s like a tremendous business! People have too much stuff. We have too much stuff, so I think, you know… What does it take to go sideways and down to find a new path up to a greater height, you know? So, we can soar… And, you know, but that’s a very visceral connection, right? That’s a very visual thing and when you watch that movie, there is a visceral response to watching that because the consequences are very visible. You know, one wrong…The guy’s got nothing but a bag of chalk in his hands, right? He is free climbing this thing without a rope so if he slips, we are done, right? I think… I think if the consequences of our global ecology were somehow more visible, right? Like, I want you to imagine, like… What would it be like if every tailpipe in a traffic jam was emitting, like, lime green smoke, right?
Taylor Martin: [Laughing] Right.
Frank Tyneski: What would a traffic jam look like, right? You know, suddenly you would go, “wow, oh my gosh!” [Laughing] That’s a pretty bad situation. I think that if we could just somehow become more visibly aware of the impact we have, but we… I think sort of psychologically, we live in a bubble that we hope everything will be okay, and we hope everything will be alright, and we are going to continue… you know, to keep the party goin’. That’s what we want to do, but there is a reality to the consequences of that. So, if I could change anything, I think, I would like people to become more aware or more conscious of those decisions they are making about… about buying fewer things of better quality. And really push a quality standard and also make things more serviceable. Things that are built to last can actually be… There could be a great revenue system. I know when you go to a restaurant these days, there is… you know, there is this new phenomenon with, you know, wireless menus. There is a like a QR code on the table, right? Now I want you to imagine…
Taylor Martin: Right.
Frank Tyneski: … imagine that every product has a QR code on it and… and I am at the dispatch center, right? And… and you wave this thing, and it tells you that you don’t need software. It tells you that you own the… You’ve got the XK529 whatever, right? I… And it connects you to me in a distribution center, and you need a new castor wheel, or you need a new piece or part. I can drop ship that to you but now I have an opportunity to make a direct connection with you, right? The user. A direct a connection.
Taylor Martin: A direct connection with its user.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah. So, you may…You might have bought the product at Target or whatever. Who cares, right? Or anywhere. But, now when you…when you… when you go to service that product, now I have an opportunity to form a direct relationship with you the owner of that product, and you are going to use that product. You know, you might off it and sell it on Craigslist or you might Ebay it or you might get rid of it in a garage sale, right? The next person picks it up, right? They have an opportunity to service that product, to refresh that product if it has, you know, fabrics or soft goods or something. So now I can drop ship a refresh kit or parts that you need to keep that product in life and service and form a direct connection, but I can also track logistics of that product, right? So, I might say, “wow you bought it… you bought it in Seattle and now it’s in Vancouver!” right?
Taylor Martin: You could end up with, like, a living history of a product from the manufacturer’s side, from the company’s side.
[0:25:35] Frank Tyneski: The whole life cycle! And then… and then if somebody, you know… and what… but here’s… but here’s where it hits the triple bottom line. Maybe I make a little bit of margin if you bought it on Target, right? Maybe as a factory owner or a business owner, I make a little bit of margin, but if I can form a direct connection to the end user through a service model to keep the product in service. Now, you know… you might want a… Maybe you want a different seat cushion or maybe you want a different color or something, right?
Taylor Martin: Yep.
Frank Tyneski: I drop ship that in a pizza box, right? It doesn’t have to have four color print. I don’t need to sell it to you in a big way. I just send it out to you in a recycled box. Now I made a little more margin on you. That is the profit part of the triple bottom line, right?
Taylor Martin: Mmhmm.
Frank Tyneski: And now I am keeping the product, right?... in service longer, right? …while I’m still making a profit, so it has… It impacts the planet. It’s good for the planet to keep a product in its life cycle. You know, there’s so many products, you’re like, you know, “the damn wheel is broken on this thing.” Well, what do we do? We throw it out instead of, like, you know… How hard would it be, you know, to put a new wheel on?
Taylor Martin: And then once you get into recycling something then it’s like all the energy that’s involved in dismantling it and puttin’ all the metal here and the rubber there or whatever there and…
Frank Tyneski: Exactly!
Taylor Martin: Then you gotta separate it all then it has to go through the process and be, you know, reconstructed into raw material and that’s a whole process itself. And then one thing that drives me crazy sometimes is, like, you know, a lot of our electronics, you know, you have… Like, anytime I… You know, an electronic goes out, I take it to Apple if it’s an Apple product but, otherwise, you know… I have to take it to specific places, and there’s not a lot of ‘em, to have them recycle an electronic, you know, piece of equipment. And… because you can’t fix it. Like, who fixes a DVD player?! You know? No one. [Laughing]
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, exactly. Then… The.. The third pillar is people, right? So, now I don’t know who… I don’t know who is buying our products at Target, but if I have a service model, right? And I am able to keep those products in service… Now I can make a meaningful connection with the end users and, you know, that includes the first time buyer, a second time buyer who might buy it on, you know, Craigslist or Ebay or the garage sale purchaser, and now there might 5-7 years of revenue coming in but also an opportunity to make a direct connection to those end users.
Taylor Martin: You know, I… That reminds me of a t-shirt that I once bought at this earthy, well-thought out sustainable shop, and I looked at the tag, and the tag had a QR code on it. And this is years ago. And, I was like, “wow, I have never seen a QR code there” and then I hit and then when I hit it, it pulled up the history of that product that was in my hand like the farmers that made the fabric, the material that made it and the families, the people that worked in the shop where it was made and built and constructed and then the shipping of it from whatever country and then here it is in front of me- BOOM. And then by doing so that connected me with the manufacturer of that product and then I was on their mailing list and now they had a connection with me. And like it’s exactly like you said, but, you know… I like where you took it a lot further in terms of, like, products that could breakdown and having that connection of fixing it and, you know, keeping it going and maybe making it last that much longer, even if you wanna, like you said, change the color or something or change the wheels or whatever. You know, customize it to what you want and the manufacturer of the company can then, you know, follow the product as opposed to just the consumer because if it changes hands, they’re still following the product and makin’ money on the product which is the bottom line, but it’s more sustainable that way and they’re focusing on people, you know?
Frank Tyneski: Yeah. Yeah, you have more points of life, right? You’re able to reach people as opposed…. Instead of just, you know, just retailers. Then when the product is out of service, you can ask them, you know, either send it back or recycle it responsibly and then incentivize them to buy a new one… Like, “hey, I’m really sorry you bought that thing but, you know… This is in its last year of life cycle. You really should buy a new one.” And then you can encourage them to buy your latest generation product with some discount code or what have you. So, you can form these meaningful relationships with their end users.
Taylor Martin: So, having talked about, you know, the challenges and your wishes… What do you strive for as a designer in your field? Like, what is the thing that drives you to get the goal, you know? The award, I guess?
Frank Tyneski: Oh, well… That is a great question because if you would have asked me this, you know, earlier in my career or even, you know, 10 years ago… I would have said, you know, I’m striving for an IDSA award or a Red Dot award or, you know, Fast Company… whatever. Those are sort of the industry accolades. They are like winning an Oscar, right? And you get one and you win one and you get bigger roles, right? You get leading roles. You get all those things. So, but those are very gratuitous. There is no shame in those. We still… We still campaign now and then but not with the veracity we used to. You know, what we strive for now is 5 stars on Amazon [Laughing]. It’s a bottom-line thing. Who we care about… We care about end users. Of course, I care a lot about my industry peers think or maybe a panel of judges, you know, appointed by a credible organization, but what I really care about is getting great reviews on Amazon. I mean, that is sort of the new benchmark- is a five star review.
[0:30:31] Taylor Martin: You know, it’s interesting you say that because, like, you know, I find myself doing this all the time. I’m in a shop in a store, and I pick up a product and it could be a food product or it could be a book or it could be anything and the first thing I do…. My mind is, like, “what’s the reviews on this product?’
Frank Tyneski: Mmhmm.
Taylor Martin: What do people say about this product? And I will whip out my phone and I will, like, you know, capture the… the code in my Amazon app and then I read the reviews and, you know… I… Yes, I will look at the price right then and there to see how much cheaper it might be on Amazon. Sometimes not.
Frank Tyneski: Mmhmm.
Taylor Martin: But, you know, I want to know the reviews! You know? That’s really what I’m going for. And I buy things, like, even if it’s, like, 5-10% more, but its right there and I can have it right that moment. I’ll buy it, but the one thing I want to know is it is worth buying? What are the reviews like?
Frank Tyneski: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that has sort of opened stores to evaluating the quality and integrity of product. It’s liberated it from, you know? Years ago, you had to have to had a Good Housekeeping seal of approval or whatever the case may might have been, right? To a handful of people who… who passed the judgment on quality and usability and acceptance of all those metrics, right? They… They… Somebody else decided. Now that its opened stores… You know, I… Gosh, what did I just buy? I just bought a straw cowboy hat on Amazon, right? [Laughs] ‘Cause it’s hot as blazes here in Atlanta. So, you know, I looked at a lot of reviews, and I saw ones I liked ornamentally. I thought, “yeah, that’s cool. That’s me.” And then I would go into the reviews, and it says, “yeah, you know, it didn’t last [inaudible] …whatever.” And I’m thinking, well okay… I… You know, I don’t want junk, right? I’m not… ‘Cause I’m conscious. And you’ll like this Taylor. Because I know… I know, like, I’m kind of a perpetual gear head. Like, I kind of live at the polarities of like I love, you know, performance automobiles, but I am conscious about green. But, you know, I think you’ve done a lot to transform my thinking so, I’m thinking about, you know, the carbon footprint of sending a cowboy hat in a box.
Taylor Martin: Right? [Laughing].
Frank Tyneski: It’s not a small item, right? So, it’s like, “can I get this locally cheaper,” right? You know, is this really… Is the juice worth the squeeze? Do I really… And if I am gonna do this, like… Yeah, of course, there is the price metric, for sure, but I don’t want to vote with my dollars on something that’s like a vapid product that might satisfy my ego for a small little window but then it doesn’t last, right? So, there’s more metrics coming into play, like… You know, what is the total life cycle of that? You know, where was it made? Will it last me, you know?And there’s more things that I think are coming into play there that are… And, you know, what is encouraging is I’m seeing… I’m seeing the reviews become less vapid, too. Like, the people who write reviews tend to be thoughtful consumers, and there doesn’t seem to be a lot of guardrail conditions around, you know, the honesty of that. So, I kind of think that there’s… It’s a good metric. So, yeah. I care what end users think more than anything. I think… I’m sure there’s others. I suppose if I had a restaurant then maybe it would be Yelp, but… But, I really… I like delighting people more than I like delighting my industry peers, so I strive for the real metrics that come from other sources than just, you know, design awards.
Taylor Martin: We’re taking about 2 things in 1. You said the Amazon review but that’s about people and it’s about bottom line because, I mean… When you see a five star product at Amazon, and it’s, you know, winning the Buy Box, and it’s, you know… It’s selling a lot of, it’s because people love the product whatever it is.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah.
Taylor Martin: You know? So, you’re… you’re delighting people. Now, if they can just do that and have that sustainable part to it then it’s the three-legged stool- the triple bottom line as far as I’m concerned.
Frank Tyneski: Exactly. You know… You know… And what makes me absolutely crazy and angers me, and I won’t say who the company is, but there’s a company that is part of a system…
Taylor Martin: [Laughing]
Frank Tyneski: And, they have… And it’s in a consumable industry, okay? And when I buy their consumables, I often get them sent in separate boxes, and they’ll be like one little part in a giant box. [Laughs] And then I’ll get another box and another box when everything could have fit in one box. And I just… I just... Ugh. It just makes me… It just makes me crazy.
Taylor Martin: You know, the part about that that makes me crazy is because I know paper so well, like, how it’s made and how it’s recycled. And the part that kills me is that every time I’m breaking down a box to recycle it… You can only breakdown pulp so many times. It’s the integrity… The… The strand of the pulp. And when those strands get so, so small because every time it recycles, it keeps getting smaller and smaller and smaller. That’s like sometimes when you see some, you know, cardboard boxes and you open it up and it basically just disintegrates on itself.
Frank Tyneski: [Laughing] Yeah. Yeah.
Taylor Martin: That’s because that… That is a very low-quality paper pulp, you know, product. And we are going to start finding new things to put it into, like… I don’t know this, but I keep thinking, like… You probably know the compressed fiberboard?
Frank Tyneski: Mmhmm.
Taylor Martin: Or not the compressed fiberboard. It’s the one that’s like really small. It’s mostly just glue with a little bit of fiber.
[0:35:15] Frank Tyneski: Yeah. Sure. Like MDF or something, yeah.
Taylor Martin: MDF! That’s what I’m thinking of. I would consider that probably the end, you know, location of where, you know, recycled paper goes to die, if you will.
Frank Tyneski: Sure. And... and... Also, you know… The same holds true, by the way, for plastic. Virgin material is pure and then they have what is called regrind. So, the ratio of regrind, right? Which is how much of the… And even, by the way, when they make parts, they might make parts in… The parts that don’t come off the line that don’t pass quality might get… Go into a hopper and get re-ground and squirted back in to make more parts. But you can only do that so many times and then the material loses it’s integrity.
Taylor Martin: So, the physical characteristics of the product aren’t just there anymore? It just starts to…
Frank Tyneski: Yeah, exactly. Like, the plastic will not be the same after you re-grind it so many times. It is very similar to what you described with paper and pulp. The same holds true for plastic. It can only be re-ground so many times.
Taylor Martin: I had no idea.
Frank Tyneski: Mmhmm. Yeah.
Taylor Martin: Sustainability is definitely… I mean, it’s kind of the part that got me… You know, when I first broke off on my company… When I started my company 13+ years ago, it was all about sustainability because that was a big thing back then, and people and companies just didn’t know how to communicate in that space. And with my advocacy, history, and investor relations, I have really had a good understanding of how to position people and their marketing materials and weave the two together into one piece. Whereas now, with, you know, the triple bottom line and focusing on people as well profit. Always profit. But people sustainability and profit. I feel like it’s… It’s a much more holistic approach and… You know, I have so many different people I want to reach out to to discuss those three different points. The three-legged stool, if you will, like I said.
Frank Tyneski: [Laughing]
Taylor Martin: And, again, some people are more involved in one than the other but, you know… I think we all just mentally need to have a better understanding of all three because even if your…your.. Your job is, you know, you are Chief of Sustainability Officer but, you know… It’s good… It’s important to know the bottom line and, you know, the cost and the profit of the company as well but also the aspect of how the company, you know, treats it’s employees, the community, and everybody along the chain of manufacturing to the end user. I think if we are all just cognizant of that, and we all play our part or we are all, you know, aware of everybody else’s responsibilities and actions… I feel like we’re covering all the bases if we do that, and that’s why I wanted to start this conversation because I really wanted to talk about boots-on-the-ground like I said earlier. I want to hear it from people that are actually doing it and thinking it and maybe leading it and maybe talking about and just having that discussion.
Frank Tyneski: What I find fascinating, and this just occurred to me right now in this moment. But it’s my A-ha moment from this conversation in that, you know, people, planet and profit- those are the three pillars that matter, but there is another P that almost everyone focuses on almost exclusively and that’s perception.
Taylor Martin: Mmhmm.
Frank Tyneski: Like, that… Perception is what people care about, you know? It’s the wrong P, you know?
[Both Laughing]
Taylor Martin: So, it’s a four-legged stool.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah. Well, look… You’ve seen it, c’mon. You’re looking at… You’re watching TV, and you see a company and, again, I don’t want to throw any companies under the bus, but you know what they make, right? And then they do a feelgood story, and there’s windmills in the background and happy babies and, you know, blah blah blah. And it’s like all…. But, you know, it’s really wrapped around the perception more than anything, right? At the end of the day, how committed are they really, right? …to really making a difference. Now, you know, maybe that’s a start. Maybe we are making incremental steps towards it, but I actually think we are at an inflexion point now where I am excited to move behind the perception and into the other triple bottom line. Like, let’s get real about it. ‘Cause, you know, unless we have that triple bottom line conversation then it will only be perception.
Taylor Martin: You know, that that… That was very interesting you say that because I remember back in the day when people were talking about green washing. Green washing because were just so, you know, upset about it but, like, I remember when… Everybody knows this story where they took 30% of the plastic out of a water bottle.
Frank Tyneski: Yeah.
Taylor Martin: And they said oh they’re green washing because its just still plastic, but it’s 30% less. And I said, yes, but it is in fact better because it’s using less material, less plastic, less plastic wherever that thing lands but it’s still better, and we just need to keep making things better. And then that was way before we were talking about, you know, corn-based plastics and biodegradable plastics, and things like that, but I think that’s it. I mean, like, even when people were flat out, you know, green washing… I’m just an optimist so I would say, you know, even though they’re doing that they are changing the perception that sustainability is needed, wanted, valued.
Frank Tyneski: And that is a noble thing. Yeah.
Taylor Martin: And that is a noble thing. And then… And then what’s gonna happen next after that? The competitor’s going to come out and they’re actually gonna do it. And then when they know they do it, you know, they are more sustainable and they actually accomplish what the other company is sayin’ they’re doing then that starts the struggle and then they… They… You know, who earns the market share?
[0:40:04] Frank Tyneski: Well, people like you are helping them do that and… And… That’s honorable, you know? I think that’s… That’s really important work. Noble work. Interestingly enough, you know, and… And… It’s also gonna have to convert to consumer behavior because, you know, the bottled water craze was actually created… You know, back when I was a kid, bottled water was, like… There was spring water and distilled water, and it was about a foot off the ground where the mop hit the floor at night, and it was holding 2-gallon jugs, right? And you put… And it wasn’t bottled water. What made bottled water popular was putting bottled water in water clear, optically clear plastic because cognitively that’s what it took. The absence of impurity…
Taylor Martin: [Laughing]
Frank Tyneski: … was the cognitive trip that made people think this water is valuable. Now, what does that mean in the future? Does it mean we have to become more comfortable with the fact that maybe, you know, the bottle doesn’t have to be optically clear to contain good water, right? Maybe we can use a re-ground plastic that isn’t optically clear and create a more sustainable water bottle, right? Or a new… But we have seen things like box water and stuff made, you know, tremendous strides towards converting people’s hearts and minds towards more sustainable solutions. So, I think we are coming around, and I am encouraged by all involved who are rolling the rock forward.
Taylor Martin: Yeah, I agree. You know, like I said… I mean, we have a long road to go and like you mentioned earlier the analogy of that climber. You know, that made me think about so many different things and its… You know, some people say that being sustainable, you know, “oh, it costs more.” You know, that’s not always the case nowadays. When we first started out, it was more the case than it is now. But nowadays people are becoming more innovative and coming up with different ideas and coming at, you know, problems in a totally different perspective. So, I don’t know if we have to go down and over like that like that climber, like you mentioned, but maybe. I don’t know. I mean, it’s… It’s… It’s to be seen. And you know what? Maybe I mean…. Of course, there’s so many different ways to do this but some people might have to do that. They might have to go down and over to go up and some people might find a way to get over, so there’s all different types of ways to getting to the solution. But I’m glad that the solution is startin’ to really focus more on, like I said, the triple bottom line. That’s why, you know, I’m doing this and when I started to understand the triple bottom line way back in, like, 2003 or 4, I would have really thought by now it would have just caught on like fire and I can’t believe how many people I talk about the triple bottom line and they’ll just be like, “what does that mean?” And I’m like, “oh, my God!”
Frank Tyneski: [Laughing] Yeah.
Taylor Martin: Because I’ve been living it and breathing it and reading it and, you know, all that stuff for so long that, to me, it’s just a daily part of my daily existence. So, I hope that this podcast starts to help open peoples mind and gets in front of people like you and hear their thoughts and their ideas. And, you know, I just hope it pushes the train forward a little bit.
Frank Tyneski: Me, too. This has been a lot of fun. You know, you know us. We could keep going and going!
[Both Laughing]
Taylor Martin: Yes, we can! So, I am going to wrap it up here. So, Frank…. How do people reach out to you and get connected with you if they wanna, you know, know more about what you’re doing and what’s going on in your world?
Frank Tyneski: Yeah. Hey, thanks for asking. I’ll try to make myself available to anyone who is curious about, you know, opening up the conversation or… or anything or any way I can help. You can find me on LinkedIn. You can also find me at cinderhousestudios.com. I actually have my own podcast, largely inspired by you and another friend of mine in Austin. You guys encouraged me to do it, and it’s call Frankify, so you can search for that. And the first one I did was on design portfolio.
Taylor Martin: That’s interesting. That’s cool. I can’t wait to listen to more of your podcasts. I know you got a lot of hits on that, one so I am looking forward to follow you up on that, so… Thank you for being our guest today on the very first podcast for the Triple Bottom Line, and I am so excited and I have so many people I just cannot wait to reach out to and get this thing rolling, so… Thank you, Frank, for being our first podcast interviewee, and I look forward to having you on again, so… Thank you, once again.
Frank Tyneski: Anytime. Thank you so much.
Taylor Martin: Alright. Over and out!
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Female Voice: Thanks for tuning into the Triple Bottom Line. Your host, Taylor Martin, is founder and Chief Creative of Design Positive, a strategic branding and accessibility agency. Interested in being interviewing on our podcast? Then visit designpositive.co and fill out our contact form. If you enjoyed today’s podcast, we would appreciate a review on Apple podcasts or whatever provider you are logging in from. This podcast is prepared by Design Positive and is not associated with any other entity. We look forward to having you back for another installment of the Triple Bottom Line.
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