When a Soccer Mom Tells You About Bitcoin Mining...

we we like talking to the people. Um. So much of the financial media is analysts and industry people talking to each other, and so usually when we do those episodes, it resonates a lot with people because they can relate to an actual investor doing it themselves. Um. And because you're listening to this, you're probably a do it yourself investor or an advisor. So I think it's a really good type of guess to have. And I agree with you Crypto. I mean, what can you say. Everybody's very

aware of what crypto is. But I will say I was at the kitty park the other day with my youngest and this one guy was like, oh, yeah, see that guy over there. He got into bitcoin or ether. I forget which coin it was, but you know, he was like, oh yeah, but back in like a you know, he's like, it's just like it's like a stuff of legends now if you got in early, and it's a

whole thing. So clearly this is a major area and it's taking over a lot of the e t F markets in other parts of the country, and soon it will be a big deal in the US when they approve a spot et F. But there's other ways to get access, which will look at today. So my friend's name is Shar Burger. I've known her since junior high. We also went to high school, uh and college together.

We're from Oregon originally she's in California and very specifically she's into bitcoin mining, which, um, there's a e t F that we also found that I also found out about through you and her, that we're also going to have the guy behind that eat e F, the co founder Ethan Vera at Pretty Funds, joined to talk about that side of the business. Look, this is going to be learning for both of us. We we know a

lot less than Ethan and a lot less than Schar. Yeah, I mean Shar to be clear as fully disclosed that she spends upwards of like eight hours a day researching bitcoin miners. So in effect, we're gonna have you and me and then Shar, who's basically the voice of a retail investor, along with somebody who's brought not only an e t F to market for bitcoin mining, but also does a mining pool. So this will be an interesting one because we've never had a retail investor out of

Mike with us doing some interviews. I'm going to learn a ton about bitpoint mining because I know almost nothing. I know I know Eric knows very little as well. It'll be a fun one this time on trillions bitcoin mining e t S Ethan Shar We can the trillions, thanks triving us on. Thank you, Ethan. I want to start with you because you've been into bitcoin mining longer than I knew it existed, I think. So, so what exactly do you do and talk to us about this

transition into the CTF. Yeah, so I'm not as o g as Eric alluded to. I didn't join the class, but I did start a bitcoin mining company in seventeen. I was still going to college at the time and basically spent the weekends flying down in Kansas City that set up a mining farm. So coming from like a finance software background, I wanted to get hands on and actually learned that the process of what it takes to set up one of these horns end up going terribly wrong.

I I often cite that there's two things you shouldn't do in this world. One is an attack Russia in the wintertime, and the second is launch of mining farm in Kansas City in the summer. And I happened to make that mistake. Um Shortly after that, I started focusing on mining pool software and along with some co founders, we we built lux Or mining Pool into one of the largest mining pools globally. It's currently number two. It's number ten in the world and number two in North America.

We also do things like basic brokerage, so we help investors get access to buy machines. We launch other software products, and then most recently in March of last year, we launched a new company called Greedy Funds, which is as a manager specifically focused on bitcoin miners, and launched the first bitcoin mining e f from the New York Stock Exchange. Okay, so let's just dig into mining for a minute. I would when someone says bitcoin mining. This is what I mean.

This is I did learn a little more about it. But when before I did, I just pictured a big like a bunch of computers, and I, you know, I actually thought that it was spitting out some kind of equation that you had to solve, like the chalkboard and goodwill hunting or something that like only a computer could do. And then I found out it's not really that. UM. And I know I'm probably get a lot of crap for saying that, but that's the truth. That's what I thought,

And my colleague James educated me to a degree. But can you just explain what are these computers doing and how do they get bitcoin for doing it? Yeah, So before I jump into the technology behind it and the calculation, um, bitcoin mining is the backbone and bitcoin. It serves as the consensus mechanism that allows for new transactions to be added to the network and blocks to be secured. And

so there is no bitcoin without the mining process. It's really pivotal to it in terms of what these machines are doing. So the machines that are securing the network are purpose built for one purpose only, which is mining bitcoin and other shot to five six variants, and so they're they're built what's called an application specific integrated circuit and a stick for short, and they can only solve

this one type of equation. What the machines are doing is they're running through a trapdoor function known as the hashing algorithm and guests and checking brute force guests and checking UH inputs in order to achieve an output that would result in a valid block. And so a new generation hardware can do a hundred and ten trillion guesses

per second you plug it in. It puts in a hundred and ten trillion inputs and shoots out a trillion outputs, and the goal is for one of those outputs to be a valid block and add a new block to the blockchain and older to add the new transactions and secure. Again, it's more about guessing. And that's where I Joe, I,

I really didn't realize that. I thought I kept hearing equation and solving, but it's really just guessing and just how many numbers can you different order of the numbers, and and I guess characters until you hit the exact match. It almost seems like like again code breaking or something out of a like trying to basically break upen a

safe or something correct. Yeah, and that's why the application specific integrated circuitsy A six are so much more powerful than GPUs or CPUs or any supercomputers for that matter, because they're so specific to this one task. Um that the hashing algorithm is a trapdoor function. So you know what you want to receive on the output, but you don't know which input would result in that, and so you're the only way to get through it is to root force. Okay, sure, I want to bring you in.

I've talked to you enough about this to know that you haven't gone full crypto. But what was it about bitcoin mining that made you go? You know, I can do stocks, I can do whatever I want, but like, I'm gonna I'm gonna double down on this bitcoin mining space. What what drew you in as a as a retail investor. So I was at the point in my portfolio where

I was looking for a little bit more risk. Um. I was actually just looking for emerging markets, and I went down, you know, the rabbit hole with genomics and you know, electric cars, um, and I ultimately landed on bitcoin mining and bitcoin At first, I you know, started stacking stats if you will. And then I just became completely fascinated with the economics and the emerging industry. There's literally never a dull moment. Something new happens every day.

In addition to yes, it being a lucrative investment for me, um, it's better than any stocker mom soap opera. You could be sitting on the couch and ping laundry. I've made so many good friends, and I've learned so much about bitcoin. Uh, I just I don't even I can't even explain the adventure I've been on in the last two and a half years. And as that pertains to eat, Yes, there

really weren't any back that. You know. I had to dig deep and figure out what miners were more efficient, which ones had better management, which ones had lower electricity costs, which one had newer miners. You know. Um, I have like a million questions for Ethan because he's kind of low key one of the probably most informed people on

bitcoin mining economics. Let's do this then, So you've invested in one company in particular, HUT eight, right, and I liken this to like the dilemma that in any investor faces is like, Okay, do you do you go long on on one company that you're especially fond of, or do you diverse find an instrument that you can diversify with. So you've got a ton of research on individual companies. What do you want to know about an et F for for Ethan? What kind of questions do you have

for him? I think for me is how well how do you weight your basket? Right? So there's certainly some economic factors you can look at when you're comparing these miners. What we've seen so far is that Twitter has loved the Halsh rate based metrics, So determining how much compute power these each of them own, or their revenue or the megawats deployed. What else is that you really want to start looking at a little bit further down the p m L, mostly because that really showcases two things. One,

the operational efficiency of the hardware that they're running. Miners that are running latest gen equipment released in you know, are are better suited than ones that are running twenty seen hardware. And second, it shows their their cost of power, which is a very important factor for these miners. And so looking at kind of metrics that are further down the p m L is quite important and not only

looking at pure compute power or revenue numbers. Um. There's there's certainly other economic decisions that we look at when when looking at determining the valuation of a miner and which miners are good to allocate to. But there's also a lot of qualitative factors. Right now, there is a two different real school of thoughts between miners. One is I want to own the entire stack and be vertically integrated from the energy production, the infrastructure to the mining.

And then the other school of thought is my best use of capital is deploying it only into miners. And to give tangible examples, maybe a Marathon Digital is in that camp where they allocate of their capital into basic machines, where somebody like bid farms are Riot owns their own farms and so they're investing capital into both infrastructure and a six And so depending on your views in the market and how it's going to play out, that will determine whether you think strategy or shrg B is going

to be the better long suit to play. I don't know if there is like a clear you know winner here in the long run. I would say that if you are allocating more capital to machines. You're going to do very well in a bowl market, but you're going

to be less resilient when that bitcoin price fall. So what are your thoughts on Iris and Iron and how they are basically just you know, selling all of their bitcoin to build infrastructure and so how that kind of they have a completely different strategy than you know, where Mara doesn't own the infrastructure, they just own the machines

and then they hoddle. And then you know, then there's HUT eight and bit farms where they they own some of the infrastructure and not all of it, and then you know, they own their machines and then they hoddle their bitcoin. What are your thoughts on those three different strategies. And I feel the same, I don't really think there's

going to be a clear winner. Maybe there will be, I don't know, um, but but I'm also seeing that with the e t s where like you know, you guys have the semi conductors as as the adjacent another what is it the Valkyrie one is uh green energy, and then the future of finance at gray scale is the one that is more sort of like financial payment plans. So what are your thoughts on that and how that

is going to evolve the different strategies. Yeah, so I think each trategy has its own validity talking to the first question, which is I was selling the bitcoin in which they mind every day. If you if you look at other commodity of producers, for example, gold producers, they don't hold gold on their balance sheet. Their exposure to gold is their ongoing revenue and then they sell that

to USD or Canadian every day. Um. And so there there is an approach from some of the bitcoin miners and bid farms was the early one where our exposure to bitcoin is in our future revue new and the machines on our balance sheet. We don't need to take a third risk, which is also our treasury. And so that tragedy is very useful in bear markets where the

bitcoin prices going down. But in bold markets like we saw over the past, the companies that held more bitcoin on their balance sheet ended up performing better because they you know, uh, were benefited from that you know, accumulating bitcoin and the appreciation of that asset. And so I think each strategy has its own merits, but they will perform differently in different markets. UM. One thing that people don't really look at is the value of the machines

on the balance sheet. One the value of a machine was forty dollars a tear hash. By the end of the year's ninety it actually outperformed the price of bitcoin itself. So here these miners are sitting with millions of dollars, if not hundreds of millions in hardware that is very closely tied to the price of bitcoin, and so that does represent significant exposure as well there. UM. So that kind of talks to like the points of like Marathon

and holding bitcoin and miners on their balance sheet. UM in terms of the semiconductor exposure and riggs, E t F so r R A t F invest in both bitcoin miners as well as adjacent markets like the semiconductors. UM. We did this for for two main reasons. One, ets have very strict diversification rules. The amount of bitcoin miners in the universe last year was not large enough to launch a specific bitcoin mining e t F, and so we had to include some bigger names in there for

the purpose of the e t F structure. But more than anything, we think it does represent a big part of the overall industry. Bitcoin mining is so fascinating because it sits in what I see is like the two most impactful and interesting markets of the next decade. On one hand, you have semiconductor manufacturers, which has all these

like geopolitical implications with China and Taiwan. And then the other side you have energy infrastructure build out with renewable energy, pushed battery storage, everything and kind of proof of work. Bitcoin mining sits like smack dab right in the middle of those two. UM. So it's a it's a really fascinating place for for bitcoin mind be a part of it. That's kind of why we allocated a bit to semiconductors there.

I love it. I guess that kind of leads into my another question I have UM in regards to supporting bitcoin mining and support reporting the grid energy grid UM

like like we're seeing with your AIRCT in Texas. I was telling Joel the other day, I think it's a really going to be interesting like test example on how how that can be done efficiently, And uh, I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are, like what you see moving forward with that maybe across the country in North American general, Almost every miner that we work with in North America is trying to participate in what we call demand response, where they're not acting as a stable load

on the grid. They're acting instead as an optional load on the grid. And so that means that when the grid has excess energy, um, they can sell that to the crypto minor. But when they have a lack of supply and over over demand, then they can take away from it. Um. Let me step in here. I want to go back to just sort of day in the life. If you're a minor and you have I mean, I guess there's all kinds of miners. But let's just say the company you have, what are you doing all day?

Obviously these computers are doing this as you call blunt force guesswork. Um, are you just making sure they stay on? Are you looking at the actual results? And what's it like when there's a hit, Like does everybody cheers like a siren that goes off? It's one of those red flashing lights like you're in a hockey, yeah, or like a Ghostbusters when they found a ghost or something, and like or I guess a fire a firehouse. Yeah. No, it's a really good question. So the companies that don't

own their own infrastructure run relatively lean teams. There's companies out there with a few billion dollar market caps with less than ten people and their entire staff. What those people mostly were where they're raising money in capital markets, talking to investors, legal work, making allocation decisions of which machines to buy. So it's a very low input business. If you're purely running your machines on somebody else's infrastructure, you'll make the decision, Okay, I want to buy ten

thousand machines from bit Maine. I'm going to send them to this farm in Texas. These guys are going to run them for me. Whereas if you own your own infrastructure, now you have this other layer of complexity where you need construction teams, you need on the ground operations teams that are monitoring the machines UM and and and of course the capital markets and legal side as well, and

so those types of companies will employ more people. UM. The machines, UH, the new generation machines are relatively stable. So if you plug in top of the line bit Maine machine and a good facility, you're not expecting that to go down immediately, but you can expect like a one percent failure rate across the year on these machines in which you need to start an r M A process, send it back to the manufacturer for warranty, replace the fans, whatever it may be. Um, so there is some amount

of babysitting to do it. Our our company isn't a minor per se because we run the software. But we do own six machines right now and we have one person that monitors all six d So, um, it doesn't require a ton of human capital, but it does require you know, a little bit. And then just back to the question, Um, if there is a hit and how often does it hit and how excited do people get? Like we just can you just take us into that moment? Yeah,

this is a rabbit hole for us to go down. Uh, well we want do we want to talk about the mining pool or do we want to go down that direction? Well, here we go, so go halfway down, halfway down. We don't want to go all the way. My my company, Luxur,

runs what's called the mining pool. What we do is we aggregate hash rate from multiple miners across the world so that the chances of a hitting block increases the chance of anyone singularly hitting a block by themselves is very low because there's only add four blocks per day, and so the four of us would pull together are each of our computers, and the chances we hit a block improves, and then we we dish out the reward equally between us um Now, to add one step of

complexity on top of that, what Luxury does as a minding pools we stabilize those earnings. So what we do is we pay you out based on the expected earnings rather than the actual. The simplest analogy I can do is a lottery. Imagine that you have one lottery ticket out of ten lottery tickets, and the total lotteries worth ten dollars. The expected value of your ticket is one dollar. Right, in reality, it'll be where's zero dollars nine times out

of ten, and then ten one time out of ten? Likely, But what Luxura will do is we'll buy that ticket from you right off the bat. We'll say, hey, we'll come to you. We'll buy that for ninety eight cents. So we take that two cents expected value and you get paid out regardless. That diminishes the excitement. Yeah, I wanted something. I wanted people jumping up and down, hugging each other. I guess you've ruined it with this system,

but it makes sense. I guess, well, now we're going to do that all internally, so we just we stole all the fun or or when the China. So this happened, all of our North American miners had a better statistical chance of winning the block, and so all of them made a lot of money. And now we're seeing all that hash come back on. It's kind of like wall wall,

But yeah, that was exciting. Yeah, mining economics still improved, Ethan, I want I want to just ask, like, when you talk to somebody who's not got exposure to to bitcoin or even bitcoin mining, how do you explain it to them that this is something that they should be maybe more aware of. How do you how do you how do you speak to the non crypto universe. Yeah, so when it comes to like talking to people about bitcoin,

I get very philosophical. Um, you know, I'm talking to them about independence when it comes to the financial system inclusion, Uh, it's really like the Internet but for the financial system. And are starting to see that play out across like various events like the go fund me and the truckers

and Canada and whatnot. So people are starting to really get it, even in the West where historically we haven't had a large distress for our government like they do in places like South America and some other parts of the world. Um So, I think that's the part that I really hit on with with investors into bitcoin is this is an entirely new financial system that isn't governed by any single individual or corporation, and that is extremely powerful to have as a backup to our existing system.

Maybe our existing system works, maybe it doesn't, but having a backup is valuable, um in case it fails. And what do you get with the mining exposure? Like what why why double down on rigs instead of something else that's crypto adjacent. So there's a few different ways to get exposure to bitcoin mining. There's buying a machine yourself, plugging it in, there's buying hash rate contracts, hash rate tokens, and then there's investing in the publicly listed minors. The

first three are more like dividend plays. So you buy a machine and you're earning bitcoin on day one that's flowing into your wallet, and so it's a very different investment profile than investing in the equity of a company, specifically on the equity of a company. I think it's valuable for a few reasons. One, it can be tax efficient, so you can put it in your four one K and these tax free savings accounts, and then to its access is actually a high leveled play on bitcoin itself.

What we've seen over the past a few years is that the public equities have some torque on the underlying commodity, much like senior gold producers do on gold um. And so if if bitcoin goes up, you know, two percent, we'll see the miners go up some multiple time, which is also true on the way down, by the way too, So it can be quite painful. And to that end, like I just want to talk about, you know, the past few weeks have been I'm sure your stomach, you know,

the roller coaster has gone down. You know, your your price in November was up close to fifty five it's now about you know, less than half that, And I'm just curious, like what's it like to take that, right? I mean, you've had this etf for for less than a year even, right, and you've you've sperience to high and now you're down to the low, Like, what's that like, It's tough. We've done it over the past four and

a half years. I remember in March bitcoin hit three and a half k I was in the gym just like looking at my phone. I called my co founder. I was like, is this all over? Like the past two and a half years, Like it's coming to an end here. So it's definitely not for the faint of heart. There's a lot of volatility now. The asset class is still very nascent. It's a small market cap, So I would just caution investors that there's going to be a lot of volatility and sometimes it doesn't work out in

your favor. But if you're a long term believer in the in this space, then you should start allocating it. So this is fascinating, this volatility. You know, we we would consider a bitcoin mining et f hot sauce, and typically it is applied on top of the very boring vanilla buy and hold portfolio in small portions. Therefore, you can stomach the heat because it's not your main thing. And I guess I'll go back to shar on this.

Obviously very into this, but this isn't your whole, like retirement savings, right, or is this a is this hot sauce for you? Or like what, I guess how much are you applying here? It's definitely UM my high risk portfolio, which is a very small percentage of my networth. That being said, I really do believe in in the industry, and I think that is it's more bitcoin. Is there more mass adoption of bitcoin that it will become less volatile.

I was listening I can't remember what podcast. I think it might have been the Fidelity one with Urine, and he said that the that it was just as uh was the sharp ratio was the same as a sixty forty because of the increase in value of bitcoin over time versus the volatility, it's actually the same, which I found fascinating. UM. And so I think like for me with the miners, I started buying them two and a half years ago, so I've argo for less than a dollar that had like a huge like up ticket brought

my net worth up a ton, and then I rebalanced. UM. There are times when it's very frustrating because you're like, oh, my portfolio was this and now it's that. UM. But over time that it inevitably just continues to go up. It's kind of like the same experience you have if you've been invested in bitcoin for many years. It's like you just get used to it and you don't really think. I don't think in terms of what the share prices.

I think in terms of how many shares I have, and then I've just disciplined myself to buy more on red days versus buy into the momentum, and then I

just hold and if if something gets really overweighted. At one point I had a lot of hut eight um, I have trimmed those positions and opened a position and core scientific Um, a position in Iris, a position in Marrow, which I never did because when I started investing, Morrow was a patentrol and they were involved in a lawsuit and I just was not quite sure where they were going or who their management was. And so well, so this is a This is an interesting thing because you

effectively spread capital before an et F was available. You were spreading your assets around a little bit right on things that you could research. So what what would keep you from from an e T F like Riggs as a retail incestor well, I actually do own some rigs, and as these e T s E T s has UH started to emerge, I'll probably contribute more to RIGGS and then as well. I really like the Great Scale Future of Finance UM. And they both offer exposure to

different areas in the market. UM, because it's nice someone else is doing the work for me. Finally I don't have to do it myself UM. And then I couldn't just learn more on Twitter. Sometimes, especially on financial Twitter, there's people who just seem to get a lot out of studying the markets, and some of the passive investors

are like, why would you do that? You're like, you can have all this free time now that there is an e t F for you found these ETFs that satisfy you know, what you think are good and providing a basket and obviously the diversification is good because some will win, some will lose, and this way your your volatility goes down and your risk goes down. Do you enjoy it enough where you actually I would like to keep doing it or does the eat or is the e t F gonna make like I guess free up

your time and you're happy about that? Yeah, you get eight hours a day back share. Yeah, that's a lot of time. I think I'm going to do with yourself.

I have. I've managed our families finances and our in our in our portfolio for fourteen years, and I've come to the realization that I'm actually actively interviewing a family office right now because I don't want to do all the other stuff, um and because I actually just love the bitcoin, bitcoin and bitcoin mining, and I spend so much time learning about it that I find myself less interested in like the day to day boring like money management.

So I'm going to take the majority of my net worth and just take it off my shoulders, which is really nice. And then as far as uh an e t F, it'll just be nice to have in the small amount of money that I my high risk portfolio I want to keep under my management, and I want to put chunks of that into the E t S but continue to research because it's changing every day so fast, so I think it will always be a mix for me,

and it's constantly evolving. And I think for me, like for me to buy Mara with a huge deal, because for so long I was like, no way, and then I they've really proved themselves to to have their sort of their strategy work for them and so I guess I've kind of trusted them a little bit more over time with my money. Um, so yeah, I know. Moving forward, I just I think it gives me more time to

research the things that I want to research. Like I have barely scratched the surface with mining pools because I've just been wrapping my head around mining in general and the economics behind you know, publicly traded companies. I feel like I could I'm going to spend the next year learning about that. Ethan real quick speaking of time, at some point that all the bitcoin will be mined, correct,

and then what happens to these miners? Yeah, so there will be no new block issuance, and so until then, the mining revenue is subsidized by the network in the form of newly minted coins. So that's in a hundred and eighteen years, but it every four years it decreases significantly, So in the next ten years it will be very small. After the only amount of revenue going to the miners will be through a transaction piece. If I send you bitcoin right now, we'll include a little bit of bitcoin,

then it that will go to the miners. And so in order for the network to continue the growth, that it has in security of compute power. We need to see an uptick in bitcoin price for for that to continuously be secured at the level it is today. So I want to bring it back to Riggs. Then, you know, if if we had been talking to you a couple of years ago, and you know, you could have forecast what where you've where you've gone now, right, just you know,

imagine fast forwarding into the future. What what do you think RIGGS is going to look like in you know, give it three years. What's the space going to look like? What are you gonna be investing in? So one of the reasons we chose to go active management was for that reason. We want a mandate to really react to

market cycles. And we hired West Fulford, who is the old CEO of bit Farms, knows the mining industry like pretty much no other and he is the portfolio manager of the fund um so it really allows him flexive ability to kind of attack some of these opportunities that we see in the market moving forward. I guess three years is hard to determine, but I think over the next year you'll start to see a lot of new

entrants come in. There's a lot of SPACs and i pos on their way um, as well as a lot of the Chinese mining giants moving over to the US. I think those represent really good opportunities because they typically traded a discount to their American peers, mostly because of their communication and another uh perceived notation of them. But they're massive companies with a lot of access to capital

and expertise in building over the past five years. So I think there's gonna be a lot of opportunity in the next year or so to invest in the Chinese names versus some of the American names are the ones that we all know today as the Marathons and the Core Size and the Riots of the world. Okay, I have one last one though, Joel completely off topic, but we got someone who went to high school with you, so I gotta I can't let this go. Sure, um, you know what was Joel like? Like, what group was

he in? And how much has he changed since high school? You know, Joel can really get along with any of the groups. He was definitely uh, the smart, the smart kid, but he also played sports and you know he didn't He was pretty straightlaced, but he in college could definitely rage. We had some good time. So he like in other words, he was he was one of those kids that was like kind of pent up, and he hit college and he went wild. Well from well from my point of view,

because I did my part. I did some partying in high school and I remember seeing and at at it he was in a fraternity. I remember seeing Metakager at his fraternity and he was having a good time, and I thought, wow, I got it. Okay, I've known guys like that. I started like junior of high school, so I kind of had a little head start into college, but definitely colleges where I think most people start to

go a little wild. It was completely healthy though for him he has always uh main pained h balance yeahs, which is why I co host a podcast called Trillions about E t F s. Okay, I want to I want to eatan. I want to give you m the final question. It's a question we often ask guests on on Trillions, what's your favorite E t F ticker other than your own favorite E t F ticker? UM, Maybe not to give one of our competitors to shadow, but w g M I is a is a nice one.

They got there and I love the like meme factor ones, which really speaks to like how the market is is looking these days. Um it's really easy for traditional investors to like overlook how impactful memes can be, and that's why we went with Riggs to um. So yeah, anyone with the meme I'm a fan of Alright, sre Ethan, thanks so much for joining us on Trillions. Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify,

and wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Baltunas. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Frincesca Levy is the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Bye o