Welcome to the World of VIX ETPs

of the E t P market. We covered TP is exchange traded product, right, Yeah, so the way we classified as a t P would be the broader umbrella umbrella of everything within that is E t F E t N S, and then in Europe you have E t c S. So I say a t P to cover because there are E t F S their cover VIX, and there's E t n S the cover VIX and

VIX being volatile, VIX is volatility. We'll go over what that is um for people who have heard of it, or we'll define it, and then we'll talk about the products tracking it and try to get into some of the minutia without getting too technical, because this is an area that can get complicated very quickly, but it is an area that is unbelievably resilient and has a loyal loyal fan base and when are we talking about it right now? Well, this year, vix E t p s

are flirting with record inflows and record volume. And this is after a year and a half ago when x I V which will go into his inverse fall, which had basically went away. It's almost like the Nats losing Bryce Harper and still making the World Series. Vix E TPS to be able to pull this off without x I V or s v x Y for that matter, is a pretty impressive feat. So I thought this is a good year to talk about it, or a good time to talk about it, um And we have never

gone into this area. We we flick at it sometimes with Mike Venuto, we had them on because it's vix E TPS are always in the conversation of how to hedge a portfolio. They are one way UM and he talked about that a little bit. But I thought, let's just go and do a primer on this area vix. We'll go full vix and we have the perfect two people from the joination. We have Luke Kawa from Bloomberg News, who I think probably covers vix the most and the best. I mean, am I wrong? I I'll leave that to you.

I can't get I can't give myself as ring a self endorsement, but I'll say I just feel like when I see a Good of All article, it's Luke's name there, um, welcome back to the show he's been on before. Yes, he had the heat, he was a sicker madness and he picked Boon which is now gone. It got replaced by a clean energy. Oh yeah, it was good well at last, and I'm still bitter about about the judging

that unceremoniously kicked out first round. First round. And we have Greg King who is now with micro Sectors, which will go into in a bit. That's his new venture. But Greg is pretty much like the George Washington of VIXI TPS. He was at Barkley's back when they started VXX that was the first one. So Greg in a way invented the vix E t P and the E t n UM. Him and Nick Churney who went off and they both started Velocity Shares, which old Ley Nick is still with. Janice bought and that's where x I

V was from. So you literally couldn't have a more perfect person to go through vix E TPS and the background this time on trillions, volatility and E t N S. Greg, welcome to the show. Great to be here, Thanks Eric. So, Greg, you've been doing this for about ten years. What what was the inception moment? Why did you think that the world needs e t NS? So, if you go back to two thousand nine when we launched, that was actually the third year that we had experienced building out the

iPath platform. You were talking about Barkley's and this is sort of ancient history now, but back then it was a partnership with Ice Shares, which Barkley's still owned. That was pre black Rock. So the idea for it actually came from the I share sales people. They were talking to clients and you know, VIX had been around for a while as an index, and then there were vicked futures, but nobody created an e t P and people wanted

it basically as a portfolio hedge. We actually got the idea in probably oh six and research it looked at it couldn't really figure out a way to do it in a way that risk was happy with um until two thousand nine. Oh those risk people, Yeah, So why couldn't have been an E T F well it could have been. I mean, our platform was an e t N that was essentially born out of the difficulty that comes with putting commodities into fort structures whole another podcast.

We've done that before, listeners are versed. Yeah, so the E t N actually was was you know, necessity is the mother of invention, right, So back then, UM commodities were kind of a hot idea in the investment sector, and how to get him into E t p s was the problem that we were solving with this E t N structure, which is Eric mentioned is different than

an E t F, so it was a workaround. And the E t N we're talking about his VXX, which came out in two thousand nine, U and lou If how would you define the VIX for, say, your mom. So basically, the VIX is something that it's you know, it's called Wall Streets fear gauge, but what it really is, it's a measure of how much investors expect stocks to swing,

the SP five to swing over the next month. And you get that by you know, telling up the prices of out of the money options and kind of making a comparative measure that will give you that and essentially, you know, your rule of thumb, rule of sixteen will be you know, if the VIX is around sixteen, that means Wall Street expects and moves of one percent in stocks per day over the next month. And in general, the long term trend has kind of been the rule

of thumb. It fixes around twenty or above twenty, people are really scared. People are you know, hunting for guns and ammo and below that, you know, generally normal trade and conditions. The environment that had prevailed right after the financial crisis is a lot of reason why there's a demand for a product like v X. Just the idea

that VALL was kind of persistently high. People were worried about hedging this and this is something that kind of did democratize a little more access to to ball and to hedging opportunities here and to add a little context there, VICK spiked in December and then has been relatively low, but then started to float again with the twenties over

the summer. Right. Yes, essentially, the VIX has been and you know, JP Morgan has commented on this recently, making that you know, the Ball Feavy index, the VIX has become in the Trump presidency, and since the trade war has kind of picked up and had its ebbs and flows, it's been very sensitive to presidential pronouncements. The kind of the degree of rotation we've had in the markets. You know, a lot of sectors not moving together, not swinging together.

The onset of earning season, which is something that keeps a lid on volatility because you know, stock swing for their own reasons and not necessarily all in harmony. That's something that's kind of kept a lid on balmore recently. So. The VIX, as Luke described, is basically a measure of something, right. It's this activity of options which tells you how much

of altility people expect stocks to have. You can't invest in that though, it's uninvestable, right, So they made futures on the VIX, right, So just explain how the futures on on the VIX work. Sure, The VIX features pretty simple instrument. It's just a strip of features like in in any futures contract. Uh, you know, one month at a time that are linked to the price of VIX at that point in time. So they'll settle to wherever VIX is trading when they expire and what you have.

What you typically see is an upward sloping curve because people think that you know, volatili and future is going to be a little higher than it is now. That's sort of just the general bias. It's it's interesting like in that way. It's volatility is a lot like life. The structure of the curve is pretty important when we

talk about vixed products as well. I'm sure we'll we'll get into more lately, but that upward sloping curve, it's like in life, you know when the bad times are here, you know, death in the family, divorced, something like that. You know when you're really stuck in it, and those periods, the VIX curve will flip on a lot of VIX spikes. You will see front front month futures traded a significant

premium to second month and further down the road. And it's these kind of relationships and these kind of flips, uh that are part of the investment thesis for a lot of people, and these products and a lot of kind of arbitrage opportunities that do present themselves. So VXX comes along, You've got this futures market, what how do

you track it? So with commodities um the general exchange trade product way of of tracking them is essentially to hold a portfolio of T bills as collateral and then put on a futures position equivalent to the entire size of that holding, and roll that position. Right. So roll means because futures contracts have expiry, uh, and you don't want to you know, if you think about corn or something, you don't want to get delivered a bunch of corn

because you held onto your features contract too long. Um. In this case, you just get cashed out to the VIX level. But you don't want to do that. You want this to be a perpetual exposure. So you're sitting there rolling these contracts as they expire. And this essentially is where you get. The dangerous part of v XX is that it's not the VIX itself, it's the futures rolling, right.

So vxx's constantly having to roll, and as Luke said, in normal times, that means you're going to sell low and buy high over and over and over, and that can be a year, right, And that's essentially the big danger with holding v XX. Correct. Yeah, I mean I think there's other risks the holding v x X, but that's the big one that impacts performance. Right, and people are always but if you think about it, take a

step back, it makes perfect sense. Essentially, you are taking a long volatility position, right, and and what that means is you're going to benefit from you know, big moves in the market. Um. However, you're not going to um in options. You pay a premium. You don't lose more than that, right, so your your losses are are limited. Um. But you have theoretically infinite upside if volatility really goes crazy. So there's a cost, basically a time cost theta to

holding this position. It should go down over time because you have this non normal potential set of returns that you're looking at. Data. I like that one. We even't I don't think we've dropped that one on the podcast before. I actually told Luke beforehand to like, you know, keep dumb it down a little, and he said, okay, he wouldn't use any Greek symbols that damn is broken. Okay. Um, how many people when you first came out with it, or in general today understand that it holds futures and

not the actual VIX index. Hard to say, you know, people are still confused by that, I think, um, but even the futures is not necessarily um, you know, answer all their questions that go, oh, it holds VIXED futures instead of VIX. Okay, got it. You know, there's still a lot to understand because when VIX goes up, let's say the VIX index goes up, if it's not even I know, that's not even quote in a percent, I

know he can't handle this. But if you do do an h cp D, which is the way to look daily percentage on the terminal, Let's say the VIX goes v xx will be up like nine of that twenty. Now, why is percentage bad in quoting the VIX again, So it's essentially it's the same reason why we you know, when the ten uere yield goes from you know to one fifty percent, we don't quote that as a percent of a percent move. It's the same thing. What what the VIX is tracking? And you know your rule of

sixteen in terms of implied volatility. When the VIX is at sixteen, we expect that means that uh, you know, stocks will move on average one percent per day per month. That goes up to eighteen that's not really a sixteen to eighteen percent increase. I would rather, you know, take the square root and go on and see what the actual change, and that if we reported that as the kind of the percent change and the implied move expected over the next month, that be a fine way to

use percent for this instance. But if not, it's just it's quoting something that doesn't exist and isn't even traded, can't be traded, and even in the forms in which it's been made tradeable, isn't really applicable. All right. So um, let's say VIX goes up and this is the jackpot potential we talked about. We write about v x X and why it's in a way critic proof because if you look at the reviews of v XX, especially in the retail media, they're like, oh, don't touch this thing.

It's because it goes down. It's basically down since it came out right. Always loses money long term. But when it works, boy does at work. Right. So let's say the markets down three percent, like it happened in August, VIX spikes. V XX might go up right twelve, maybe even more right, and that would be more than even a negative triple leveraged inverse SNP, so like kind of nothing goes up quite like a vix e TP on

those days. Are people buying them to capture that day or are they just sort of holding it to hedge their portfolio for a longer period. So that was the initial concept, right exactly, that people would hold this thing when they needed to to hedge out market risk UM. But there you have major timing issues, right. It costs money to be wrong on timing UM. And then you have sort of position sizing issues. You don't know exactly how much you need because you don't know exactly how

much mix is going to spike um. So so all of these dynamics and maybe I'm preempting your your next kind of where you're going, but lead to people looking at the opposite traite right the short side, recently activity that we have seen with regards to flows into the long vix complex, it does look to be being used as more kind of an opportunistic timing vehicle a k a. As volatility has retreated recently during earning season and your

stocks making a renewed push towards all time highs. JP Morgan's flag that you have had a large amount of flows into these long VAWL products. And yet what this does do, or what this does signal, is that, yes, people are trying to use this opportunistically positioning for the spike, but that when the spike happens, they're likely to monetize. And so what does that do. That's selling pressure that

kind to put a lid on the spike. So it's got it's a two way a fact, and it's a nice kind of self regulating feedback loop when people do use these appropriately. Yeah, I always seem vix E tps like the guys selling the umbrellas outside of penstation when it's raining. Um, everybody just the volume on them like triples on a bad day. I mean clearly everybody is like hitting those like it's like a frenzy. It's like a feeding frenzy. And it's because they go up way

more than anything else. I mean, there, you don't you get You just don't get that kind of juice elsewhere. And is this part of the reason why VXX tracks the short end of the curve right, which is closest to the actual VIX There are other products attract the whole All the futures were the middle part of the curve. But people tend to not really want those. Is that because they don't pop as much, but yet you don't lose as much long term if you hold those. Yeah,

that's right generally speaking. So you have v x X and v x right and UM tell you a quick story. We had uh, like I said, started in an OH six on this idea for v x X and are UM.

I came from Barclay's and our team was focused on the front end of the curve and that would be the most tradable UM in O eight, Barclay's essentially bought what was what was left of Lehman right UM, which included a team that was also working on a vix E t N As it turned out, right, So we got together and debated ideas, and they like the mid term kind of concept and we thought, well, that doesn't have enough juice for people are not gonna be as interested.

But their point was, you know, it's going to have less decay over time. So he said, why don't we launch them both and see what happens. And initially, actually there was a m there was a lot of interest in the v x C because I think some of the more UM buy and hold type crowd viewed it as a portfolio heads that they could sustain for longer periods of time. Eventually most of the interests moved to

the front end of the curve. I think just because you know, it's an unusual instrument, and if you're going to tie up parts of your portfolio to hedge, you kind of want the most bang for your buck. It's not like you're putting big chunks of your portfolio this.

So talk to me a little bit about when you're talking to the investors about how they're using the product, and we talked about hedging a little bit here, like how are especially institutional investors, how are they touching this this product, and how long are they holding it for and and uh at, you know what, what percentage of the portfolio typically are they exposing to it? So I think it's safe to say, across the years and across the different types of clients, you really get a little

bit of everything UM. I would say that the institutions these days UM that are trading these products have a evoll focus or some aspect of their portfolio management includes trading and options or volatility in some way, shape or form um. You know, there's they're they're fluent in the waters. Basically, yeah, they know what they're doing. They're using it in specific

ways for specific strategies. And then there's a whole contingent that are doing arbitrage right among VIX related instruments, whether they're E T p S or futures options and even the sp and let me give you a number here. So VXX currently has eight dred and sixty million, but it trades about six million a day, so almost a

d percent of the assets are turned over. So in our view, this is the right way that should be used as a hot potato U S O. And there's some others sometimes that have roll costs that track commodities where they don't. You can see they're not traded that much, and you wonder are people not getting what to do here?

But high turnover. This turnover would be scary if it was a van guard et F but it's good here because people are using a short term and that just one quick thing before we go to the inverse fall to get into E T S versus E T N S, I just want to go back about ten years ago ish I was in data covering this, and our job was to put the e t F s on the terminal. And you come along and you're like, we got this e t N thing and it's like half note half e t F half half. It's like half bond half equity.

And you guys pushed to put on the put it on the equity key, and we had some high her up saying no, it's a bond, it should be on the fixed income key. It was a right call. Yeah, I mean, you guys got it on equity. It's a little high profile. But ultimately this speaks to the credit risk of an e t N. Can you talk about that? And also Lehman had one and they went bankrupt and people didn't get all their money although there wasn't much

assets in it, right, right. So e t n s are an obligation issued by a bank, right and they have to be a certain tier bank. So that's why you don't see sort of regional banks issuing e t N s. Uh. They're significant requirements. And the sort of pro and con of the e t N is that the prospectus defines exactly what you're going to get, right, So if it's linked to an index, you have a formula. It's, you know, sometimes an ugly formula, but it's there and you can work out exactly what the E t N

is gonna pay out. The difference with an e t F is that you're going to get what you get. You know, hopefully the manager knows what he or she is doing in tracks the index, maybe even outperforms UM. But at the end of the day, if there's a mistake made and it goes against you, sorry that you know those are the results. So UM. The pro for the E t N there is you know, the bank mistracks the index, that's their problem, not yours, UM in terms of the you know ny V of the product um.

But the con is you're reliant on them to do it. So in other words, it's credit risk, and if the bank goes away, then you're standing in line like all the other creditors. There's also the tax issue because most E t N assets right now, People might choose E t F if they had an equal if it's all all else equal, but E t N s that UM. If it's futures, you get taxed a little differently if you actually hold them, whereas an e t N you don't actually hold them and you get taxed I guess normally, right.

That's another big reason people would go to the E t N if there was an equivalent E t F. Yeah, there's definitely tax differences, and in my experience, I found people were not as concerned with that, especially with these trading products where there's a short term time period. But there are definitely tax differences depending on the asset class. Two m LPs is one. We're not talking about that today, but it's totally different with e tns and e t

f s. So we brought up inverse volatility briefly. Let's come back to it. What is that? So back to the idea that going along vix or volatility cost you something. Um, you know, people started to say, well, wait a second, if I go short, do I just you know, harvest those benefits, and the short answers yes, right, so you can. It's the same as selling options. You can receive option premium and just you know, cross your fingers and hope

that those options expire worthless. You don't have to pay anything. That's great, you know, great, but to make a living until it's not right and um, something happens, you have to pay out. So the short volatility trade express through vix ETPs is essentially that UM just using the VIX index and the futures on it as a proxy for the overall volatility market. And how popular has that been

from a flow standpoint, It's been real popular. UM inverse products were launched i think in two thousand ten for the first time. Last years and launched x I V and that have been some others by pro shares, etcetera. UM. But also, and this is more difficult to calibrate, you know, there's a certain proportion of the long products that are actually just held for the short side UM, so they're they're they're held by dealers as inventory who lend them

out to people who are shorting. So it's it's hard to understand exactly what the numbers are. But certainly the last several years, before you know, February of the short ball trade was getting pretty popular. And why people would choose to short a long ball et F rather than hold a short ball et F will become pretty clear

as we continue this conversation. Because of as Greg said, we're kind of we are in the prospectus and some of the so called acceleration events where you can have a short ball product go to zero in a day, Well, that risk doesn't necessarily exist in the same fashion if you're just shorting along vall E t F. So kind of takes some dooms day out of it, but you know, still doomsday when it happens. So let's actually there's the

opposite risk. I mean not opposite really, but it's a continuation of the risk, right, because if you're shorting v xx and it goes to infinity, then they you know, they're going to call you up and say, hey, can you kindly wire us a few more dollars um? Whereas if you're long and inverse product, then yeah, I can go to zero, but if it goes to negative numbers, they don't call you up and and ask for that. Um, let's talk about X I V. I have a chart here showing I guess November it came out and then

up until the end of it returned. Sound about right, It sounds about right. So this is this has always been described as picking up Nichols in front of a steam roller, but this is more like five dollar bills. Because the FED had made volatility low, the market was great, and it just worked and worked until it didn't. Now, Luke take us through uh that faithful day in February. So so this is fun and to kind of look at the backdrop was pretty much the most tranquil year

for stocks on record that you could imagine. And yet if you looked at the VIX futures curve, so the spread between that first month and second month, that dynamic you were describing earlier, where long vix et f s are essentially you know, uh, buying high and selling low. That's working uh in the complete opposite direction for shortfall et f There was still a pretty nice contango there. And yet realize volatility was sinking lower and lower and lower.

So you're making money on both greeks. You're making money on your delta and you're making money on your data. What happened in the run up in in in early was that volatility got so low, you know, around to a ten level on the VIX or even below. And at the same time, the shape of that VIX futures curve, it was very slim in terms of the front month

the second month contango. So your delta possibility of it going even lower, of all going even lower probably you know, not great and At the same time, the traditional kind of decay money you're picking up from the structure of the VIX futures curve no longer as supportive, and yet people still loved it, and we're flooding into the product,

which brings us to February. Second, we have a pretty hot non farms payroll report, and you know, people start getting worried about inflation, People start getting worried about the bond market yield sell at there's a new fed share Oh yeah, oh geez. That was yeah, that long ago. But yeah, we've we've got j Powell wondering if he's

going to be more hawkish. Big sell off that day on a Friday that inverted the vic's futures curve, and you know, some folks took that as Okay, it's time to get out, it's time to sell, it's time to be worried. Selling continues on that Monday, February five, which you know Eric was who knows what Eric was doing then, but he was not in the office when he was needed. Let me let me tell you, and so about I

thinking about two, two or three pm. What happened was s Vixie was which is another SHORTFOLI et F was briefly halted, and what happened at that time was it's almost like people and and eelers and anyone who is hedging realized, oh my word, the amount of this VIC spike and ensuing action we're going to get in futures, how much I think stocks should sell off for this move. This has not been adequately priced in at all. It's like a dam burst and stocks started tumbling very hard.

And because of the way that these products are structured, the VIC spike lower stocks meant that from four to four or fifteen and their rebalancing activity there was going to be a heavy, heavy, heavy amount to buy that's

going to push volatility up further. So it's it's essentially gets to be a point where people are front running something they know is going to happen in terms of the VIC spike because of the mechanism and the popularity of these products, that continuing to get out of ahead of itself and cycle and cycle and cycle, and so what ended up happening is x I V Bay had an acceleration event which was very well defined in the prospectives, and that you know, if the indicative value of the

product was down by I think, you know, more than six in a day lost at the sixty in the day that it would be you know, possible and within the the issuers rights to just close up the note. And that's what happened. First of all, I was off that day because the Eagles had won the Super Bowl the day before, and I purposely took off to watch all the sports shows and just like revel in it. Plus, I was out late and I got a call from Luke at like three thirty. I remember I was in Mike.

I went to with my wife to pick up my kid from school. When I was in the passenger seat, He's like, what's going on with X I V. And I'm like, what do you mean. He's like, it's crapped out. I'm like, oh no, And that was the technical term. Yeah, I think that was something like that. UM. It was much more sophisticated UM. And the whole week I remember it was like a big deal. It was like in

the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal. Now X if you only had about eight hundred million dollars, maybe close to a billion, it wasn't a ton of money, but it X I V. Was like the tip of an Iceberg of a larger trade. A lot of people are shortfall just doing it the regular way without the et P right, and this is sort of everybody. It was an easy trade that got crowded and blew up basically, and Gregg, what were doing. I was sitting in my

office and we were watching it too. We had some small vixed funds at my new shop, rex shares Um, and we were definitely paying attention to what was going on. But you know, and and I'm you know, I guess semi proud to say it. I bought volatility uh you know, the I should say, I bought the inverse volatility um fund our fund that afternoon because I thought this thing

was overdone. What happened between four and four fifteen I think was at least for me and a lot of market participants that were watching the space really kind of the nail in the coffin of Wow, this thing really got away from everyone, which it obviously never happened before, even though moves of that size had happened before. How often do you eat your own cooking like that? Why cook unless you're willing to eat it? Um so from time to time, and so obviously this was a big,

big event. We quickly I had this idea for a rating system for ETFs anyway like movies, so we quickly pushed this out. All these get like a red light sort of leveraged um. But this got calls for like should E T F? Should should these be like not allowed? And it seems like it's all kind of died down. It does seem though, that the short vall complex pretty much, you know, kind of got neutered right S S V x Y went to what half inverse, so it's not quite the same trade. And then z I V still exists,

which is shorting the middle of the curve. But it's interesting nobody wants these products like they've made decent money, but that nobody cares like it was like they just don't have enough. Is it this juice issue again? It must be, you know, I don't I don't understand why that is. I I think products like z I V for example, are are great. I mean, it's it's a more conservative approach, but you know, it's less likely to have one of those events. And Luke Um, you're on

Twitter a lot as I am. Can you talk a little bit about the the Twitter sort of outrage, but then also the sort of mixed e motions people have about x I V not not being there, and now I put a pull out, like half the people seem to want a new one back. Can you just talk about the what people out there uh felt about x I V. So people on the internet, people who are extremely online, absolutely loved x I V. If you went to our Wall Street bets, like the subreddit for you know,

essentially pajama traders, they all love this thing. They were all very crazy, long long and holding x I V like you know you shouldn't be, but apparently too many people were, and the thirst is still there because I I think people are just very much attracted to that shiny object, to the kind of democratization of the ball space. I think it also, you know, makes a lot of sense in a very low yield environment that this, you know, was for a long time a reliable source of carry

until it wasn't. And like the question I would have for for Greg on this is then you know, if x I V were to be revived or launched in another form today, do you think what steps would be needed? Do you think to appease regulators or could you just do in the same form. I to my knowledge, some you know, a bank could just issue another X I V tomorrow if they wanted to. I don't think there's anything to to stop that. I think what's happened is back to the risk people we were talking about at

the beginning. Um, you know, something is a three sigmatic sigma event until until one of those happens, and then all of a sudden you move your you know, your volatility, of your volatility around and so this this couldn't happen until it did. Now it can. So you've got to think about that when you're creating new products. And I think that's why the existing products were levered down. I know that prime brokers, you know, increased limits on margins

and things. So it all kind of cascades through. Um, you know, back to seven that crash. You know, people still refer to that because it's the biggest move we had. But if that had never happened, we'd be referring to something, you know, half the size and scaling everything down and we might not have exchange products. UM. And just one

thing on X I V, which is interesting. We look, x I V made more money for people than it lost, Like on that day it might have lost eight hundred million, which was what was in it, But over the years it saw a couple of billion and outflows, meaning that people were taking their profits over and over, which is sort of what you should do. Not saying everybody to that, but that's an interesting point. On the flip. V xx has about eight million, but it's taking it about seven

billion dollars worth of flows in his lifetime. But that's I guess arguably more like you're buying insurance. But the cheeky, the cheeky argument to make is that v x X as a buy and hold has lost you more than x I V, even though x I V closed easily if you have about and held both. Yeah, but the idea of x I V though, was that you would take profits and not just hold it like and be

like naive. That would go up forever. But again, I think that there was an article in New York Times about a target manager doing the short ball trade, and I think that's when it got labeled as Okay, Grandma's in this. Even though that might have not been, it still ran for months and months after that, and surprisingly Seth Golden I saw he's that target manager I still talked all he is still trading and in trading options, so he was he got over it. He was like, yeah,

it was fine. I'm good merely as so bring us up to speed on what you're doing now. So I started a firm called rex Shares. You refer to microsectors, which is one of our product lines. We we do um leverage sector plays. So we have a product with the n y C that's a link to Fang stocks. So people love trading Fang stocks and they're kind of pure play on tech. Uh. Three times lever f n g U fungu, which apparently I'm not supposed to say on the air because it sounds like some you know,

bad phrase in Italian or something. Um, but f n g U is is like our main product. And then we've got a number of different sector plays, a fanged fanged f n g D, which I think will have its day in the sun because the Fang trade, Um, I mean it's not totally great now, but it's been so good for so long. This is triple leveraged Fang

plus tesla um some other I do. I'll yeah, Twitter and basically all the companies that have led this market, like the tip of the spear of tech in a way, it just isolates those to be clear that when you're talking about is the inverse right. So that's what I'm saying you is the is up and f g D is the down. Um. I just think f m g D is one of those that will have its day because obviously these stocks are up so much in the past ten years. Greg King, Luke Kawen, thanks for joining

us on Trillians. Always pleasure great to be here. Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear female. We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Webber Show, He's at Eric Faltunas. You can follow Luke at l j K A w A, and you can follow Greg at m Sectors. Trillions is produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesca Levy is the head of Bloomberg podcast by