This ETF is Rated R

But there's a lot of turbulence in the market right now, and a lot of investors, especially if you're new to investing, are seeing red in a way that they've never seen before because we've we've been in this epic bowl market for for almost a decade now. Yeah, it started to seem like utopia, like you're just especially with the FED and how they kind of had the markets back for a while. Then Trump won. That was another catalyst. Just been this nice perform Yeah, yeah, there's always some reason

to buy right and now we've gotten some shakiness. And for me, it was very unfortunate because I am in

Philly on Sunday night the Eagles win. I didn't get to bed until three in the morning on Sunday, and I took Monday off to sort of just relish the Eagles victory and I get start getting emails about some of these volatility tf So around three o'clock I kind of was woken from that Eagles dream and into reality and spent the last basically forty eight hours dealing with a lot of issues around to sell off and volatility products and what have you, which is is what we're

going to dedicate this whole episode too this week, because we've talked a lot about e t f s, but they have some cousins that are called e t n s, and these all fit under something called an e t P, which are exchange traded products. E t N stands for exchange traded notes, and ETFs are exchange traded funds. Those three things are very different things. Yeah. Look, I mean they went out and basically wrapped up everything you could possibly think of into an e t F or an

e t N. We call that e TPS. Imagine a zoo, right, There's different categories, and there's there's some stuff in there that's highly exotic, you know, the reptile area kingdom. Yeah, yeah, that area you can bite, you know. And I think there's some that happens every couple of years. You see investors who might have gotten a little too um naive. They went from the petting zoo to the reptile section, right, yes, exactly, straight from petting the sheep into playing with the python.

We also have joining us your colleague James Seffert, who's an E t F Associate analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence, and we're gonna talk about something I'm really excited to talk about because brand new. You guys just kicked it off. It's like available now on the Bloomberg terminal. It's hot, it's hot. The e t F stop flight system. We can say we dropped it, right, we dropped Okay, we dropped this week on Trilliance, the e t F stop flight systems to save you from yourself. Okay, Eric et

F stop light system, what is the genesis of that? Right? So, E t F s are a wild it's just a huge spectrum of products. And over the years I've been finding that if you talk to like a financial advisor network we call them wire houses where they have a large network of advisors, I found they'll put E t F into two categories. Either they're on the approved list where they're not right, and the media there tends to be they're safe or they're dangerous. But to me, there's

much more nuanced than that. And the other problem is what's dangerous to one person might be god send to another. You know, there could be a product that's triple leverage junior gold miners. Now I don't know what you just said, but triple leverage gold miners, okay, Just know you could lose or make a lot very quickly. These are products that I call trading tools, and for certain investors they're great. These are like power tools, and for other investors they

would be horrible. Right, But they're all kind of put into this big area we call e t F and some aren't even technically e t S. Will get to that in a minute, But arguably I thought movie ratings would be useful for e t F s. You did in your book, right, and I wrote this in my book. You know there's like five ratings GPG, PG thirteen, r A, n C seventeen. Right, Because look, at the end of the day, just because children exist doesn't mean people shouldn't

be allowed to see a Quentin Tarantino movie. Right. We want him to make his movies, but we don't want like my I don't want my son to see The Hateful Eight. Not until he's at least ten years old. He's like nine right now. Right, Well, my dad let me watch The Extorcists when I was eleven. I'm still

recovering that anyway. Look, movie ratings are great because the other problem with rating systems out there, for e. T. F is they might tell you by cell hold right whether they think the underlyings can go up or down. We don't do that. It be I. There's also rating systems like from that are targeting advisors and they'll throw all the crazy stuff out the window. They won't even

rate them. They're like they don't exist. They're awful. But at Bloomberg, you know our terminal users are sophisticated, so we wanted to assist them. That could be used in regardless of who the investor is or what their goal, whether it's a small hedge fund, my grandma or an advisor in Oklahoma. Telling you what the rating is gives you advanced information to know the level of nasty surprise that could be within the product. This is a helpful way to avoid having a bad experience. So again, it's

like movie ratings. That way, you know what's appropriate to take your kid to so James. The thing here is that you couldn't use movie ratings, right, Yeah, that's that's copyrighted. So we had to come up with something else. So we came up with a stoplight, green, yellow, red, pretty simple. McDonald's simple and Eric's world. It's not as exciting as saying, hey, this et F rated are that's pretty cool, but it tells you advanced information about what you should be doing

or what to be thinking about. Okay, so we've also said something called exchange traded notes, and we need to talk about that because an exchange traded note, or an e t N is not the same thing as an exchange traded fund. So what is an e t N. It's an unsecured debt obligation. And really they probably shouldn't be in the whole e t F universe, but they kind of got grandfathered in about twelve fifteen years ago.

They were originally launched to go out and track areas that e t s couldn't like, for example, India fifteen years ago, you couldn't get in there as a foreign investor, so an e t N could say, okay, we'll track an India index. But it's a note. Just know that that's what we're doing. You don't know what we're investing in, so they'll just it's sort of like saying, just trust this. And so that's why they don't report holdings, because you

don't exactly know what they're doing. Largely they do invest in the underlying to hedge themselves, but that's ultimately what it was designed for at the beginning. Now, over time, all those things have opened up, and e t f s track them, and most people would rather have the e t F which physically holds what it says it holds. But e t n s have hung around for one big reason. They're essentially a tax loophole. So in the cases of like futures, E t F to tract futures

get taxed uh in an unfortunate way. You get a K one because it's like your tax like you hold futures, whereas an e t N they don't hold it, so their tax like shares of Microsoft. So people who don't want to deal with the sort of fussy taxation will use the e t N and stomach the fact that it's a note and comes with credit risks. So if the issue of an e t n like Barclays has some. If they go back up, you could lose all your money,

which happened with Lehman. Actually, yeah, Lehman had a couple of bear Stearns had one, and that you know, the bedrock of the e t F is the fact that it's built on the forty Act, yes, right, which is what's made it, you know, be this stable thing for as long as it's been around. E tns do not have that, right, they're not built on that forty Acts. So they're basically unregulated in the same way, right, they're they're regulated to a degree, but yeah, they're under the Acts.

So they're still regulated, just not to the scrutiny that ETFs are. And they're in some areas that are really interesting. And one of those areas is volatility. And there's been a dearth of volatility of late in the markets, right, and so a lot of people piled into a certain kind of trade. And I'll let you pick it up here. What was that trade? So this was a trade that you short vix futures and vixes volatility. Yeah, fix is

basically and vix vix. The vixen nets took a step back the VIX index is tracking the volatile on options on the SPI. In other words, if there's volatili on options, it means people are looking to buy insurance on their portfolio. That's what you do with puts. So if that starts going up, it means people are nervous. Right now. They have futures tracking the VIX, which you can invest in. The futures market is what the e T s hold.

Most of them go long, which is they hold the futures and like just like the oil et F holds oil futures, but a new category came out that shorts them. Now what this does is it sort of puts you in the position as being like a hurricane insurance company. You're selling risks. So as long as there's no problems, you collect this nice premium. I mean, it's really nice. That thing went up the inverse vix E T N when about in the last two years. That's more it's

more like stepping up. I mean, that's some serious They could equated to picking up nickels in front of a steam roller, but those are like five dollar bills. And yes, a hurricane from hell came and basically it lost nine in a day so because of this low ball environment, Normally it'd have more hiccups along the way and you wouldn't see that level of event. But there's been such this placidness over the last couple of years that when

it hit Man, it made up for lost time. And actually Bloomberg News has done something really interesting reporting around this of volatility as an you know, volatility inc. Is the idea, right, there's so much money wrapped up in volatility now that it's almost become its own asset class. Yeah, this is part of the reason I think this stoplight system is timely, because some of these products are useful

for people who know what they're doing. Say you're a small hedge fund, you don't have access to some big prime broker, all right, you know how to trade these things, go for it. The problem is they're not labeled, and so if you're a retail investor, you may not understand the inner workings of Vick's futures. So big debate now is whether it just banned these things or as we're proposing, label them because there are people who actually might still

be able to use them. They're just not your grandmother. Yeah, And and the e T F S did what they were supposed to do. Vick's futures rose that day, so you got the inverse of that. It's not like they failed as a product, they just what they held just kind of went to hell. Okay, so we had this big sell off and you guys have this new stop light system. Let's talk about one of the E t N s the inverse vix x I V. I'm looking here at your stop light system. It's got a red

light and seven points. James. That sounds bad. Yeah, yeah, that is. That is bad. So the highest we have on our system is is a ten. So seven is pretty high. Up is anything at ten? Yeah, we have one. We have one thing that's attend on our system that it's actually another e t N that's three times leveraged on oil crude oil and it's actually listed OTC. It has a lot of tons of different issues surrounding it. So yeah, this would be like almost beyond NC seventeen. Yeah,

I mean this would be almost like banned by the government. Yeah, it's like times square or yeah, when it was fun. Let's walk through the rating system so we get a better sense of why something could be a seven out of ten or a ten out of ten or maybe like a zero out of ten? Does that exist? Zero out of tens exist? There's a lot of the market zero at tends most of vanguards funds or zero out

of ten. That's like the G category. That's like it's safe for Grandma to just go to town with not That's not to say the E t F will always go up again. It's just to say there's nothing odd that's gonna make you go, oh, I didn't know that would happen. The system technically could go higher than ten. We just don't have any that we rate that hit that number. It's like mind blowing. I mean, look the smp F, t fs uh, the aggregate bond ETFs, all the stuff that generally is used as building blocks for

portfolio is all green. Zero All systems go have fun. The green category likely makes up about t f sts. And at what point do you get a yellow light or a red light? When you get one point in our system or one in fraction, whatever you want to call it, and then to get to a red light you need three points or or infraction from there, YEA. So yellow light is sort of like PGPG thirteen area in terms of violations, and you know, look, we don't just look at like whether it holds leverage or futures.

There's some legit things on here that I think are also eye opening about due diligence on et F. So let's talk about them. Alternative tax treatment. So that's the first one in the list, So that basically looks at anything that has an alternative tax. You invest in futures, you have to deal with what's called a K one, which can be complicated more paperwork that a lot of people don't want to deal with. Um. The other thing is something like gold, which is taxed as a collectible,

which many people don't realize. To invest in a gold ETF, you're not actually going to be taxed in the same way that you would investing in a normal equity E. T F, G L D is a great example because other other than that tax issue, it's completely fine. It holds the gold, it's does a great job tracking, no problem.

But if you do sell it, you your taxes. If you held like one of those gold plates from you know the commercial during Fox News or whatever, you know what I mean, where you're actually holding a collectible that is a different taxation system and I've heard some investors are a little mildly surprised by that green light yellow yellow light alternative waiting scheme. So this one is just saying that the ETF is waiting its underlying assets by

something other than market cap. So market cap meaning you're it's just a broad investible index like the SMP five hundred, But you can get equal weight SMP five hundred, which will give you more volatility because it's going to give higher weighting to those smaller cap funds are smaller cap act. One thing that would fit in this category then would be smart beta e t f s, which had become really popular lately, and we haven't really talked about them yet,

and we will talk about them more. But what is that. It's just a fantastic buzzword. But really all it is is applying to anything that isn't market cap weighted. So if you have the SMP five hundred apples at the top, right, and then exon and down you go, the biggest companies get the most waiting. Smart Batas says, let's do something different. Let's equal weight those stocks, give the smaller ones more voice.

Let's wait them by their fundamentals. Let's look at stocks with lower p s. Let's wait them by the momentum. You know, there's all different ways you can wait them. So it's a twist on the market cap weighted index, but in reality it's actually taking active strategies that have worked for many years and converting them into a rules based index. So smart BATA sort of fills that void between discretionary active where you just do what you want

and pure passive market cap weighted. We want people to know there's something in there that you should probably just look at, and that is all smart bait against an immediate yellow. Yeah. The other thing to note is that none of this nuts is necessarily saying this is a bad e t F or this is a bad situation. This is just something that to make people aware of what's going on. Here's a great example XOP, which is the Oil Producers et F. It's equal weighted and it

has two thirds mid and small caps. It's triple the volatility right of x l E, which is the Spider Energy et F, which you think those are kind of similar, but XLS market cap weighted mostly large caps. This one is equal weighted and it's a smaller area of the oil energy of the energy area. And that is a lot of extra vol right there. You can go up and down pretty fast an x OP. That's why it gets a yellow. Next factor that you guys looked at potential NAV tracking issues, So how do how do you

guys factor this in? So? So NAV is the just basically the underlying value of what the fund is actually holding. So an E t F has a NAV and the price. Um so when you buy your buying at the price, you're not buying at the NAV. So what you expect in a passively managed e t F. For really, any E t F you expect to be buying at a value that where the price is equal to the NAV. So any e t F where there's some discrepancy between the price and the NAV over extended periods of time,

that's unexpected losses. So even if you're talking only a couple of basis points or percentages of percentage points, it can really affect your return. And what does NAV stand for? Net asset value? It's basically what you know the Kelly blue Book. Yeah, it's what the value of those stocks are worth. So everybody wants to buy something close to that Kelly blue Book value, right or until you're are for it. Yeah, there you go. That is sort of what the NAV is is a metaphor, but ultimately you

want to be close to it. And that's what people love about ETS is it the price that you that it trades at is close to the NAV because if it gets out of whack, people can come in and arbitrage the difference. That's what you don't have in closed end funds, and people don't like those for that reason. The other part of this is think about what an e t F sole mission in life is is the

track and index. So we're also gonna dig it. If it doesn't do a good job at that, we want to let you know because arguably the distance between the index return and the ETS return is really the total cost. The expense ratio comes out of that, and then sometimes they do a little better of the expense ratio, sometimes they do worse. We're trying to capture that to make sure you know there's actually some extra tracking costs in here that you're going to have to pay for it.

Next fund is actively managed because there are actively managed t yees, So especially on the fixed income side, there's a there's a lot, there's a significant assets on that are actively managed, meaning there's there's a fund manager actually going in there and picking specific securities. It's growing in popularity on the equity side and basically all over ets, but it's still a very small aspect of the e

t F market. And these are big name bond guys, right, Yeah, You've got people like Jeffrey Gunlock, and then you have people double Line exactly and Pimco. There's a lot of active, big bond asset managers that have e t s. It's not bad to be active in an e t F. However, sometimes people assume it's all passive. Again, it's just to alert you that this is a this is an e t F where the manager is doing whatever they want and you just should know that. Right. Hidden fees, So

this one gets a little complicated. There's a lot of different ways that e t f s can have hidden fees, right. So, Um, one of the big things that people have been talking about are these interest rate hedge gtfs. So what they're doing is they're trying to hedge out the risk from rising interest rates. Um, But there's costs in shorting that You're you're paying the cost in whatever the interest rate is to short the interest rate. So look, there's a

lot of ets that I call package trades. They go longness and short that right and there are which is kind of phenomenal when you think about that yellow. But arguably the reason those get yellow is because there have hidden costs the shorting. When you short, you gotta pay, You gotta pay for that. So what's the degree of that. We want to let you know that that's what it is. There's also hidden fees, and like um funds that own other funds, there's acquired fund fees that that aren't reported

all the times, like the really superfine print at the body. Yes, and there's mlpts which have these incredibly awful taxation issues. We throw all that in into hidden fees that aren't necessarily reported in the expense ratio. By the way, how many e t f s have you guys put through

this gauntlet? So basically when we start, we we look for e t f that have at least one year of history, so we can say that they've been trading or alive for one year and they have at least fifty million dollars in assets right now, we're just overtfs are classified. Those are that's going to be the assets and volume. However, we might expand it. If we get some traction on this, we may just rate them when

they come out like a movie. Um, and you know that way people know what they're getting into right away. We wouldn't be able to some of these won't be will be moot because you need uh you know, history. But some of these you could write right away. Credit risk. So this is directly related to what we talked about before with exchange traded notes. Exchange traded notes have a credit risk, their unsecured dead obligations issued by big banks, credit suee ubs, uh, you name it. There's another one,

less liquid holdings. Yeah. So there was debate on what we wanted to call this because we didn't really want to call it a liquid holdings because if the holdings were truly a liquid then there really wouldn't be an e t F. But um, there are plenty of assets that have been wrapped in the e t F rapper

that are considered less liquid. So you've got high yield dead instruments such as bank loans or high yield corporate bonds which don't really trade that off in E t F trades multiples of times more per day than the underlying assets. You also have things like frontier markets like Vietnam Um where the equity doesn't trade nearly as much

as something like a U S stock. The high yield bond area is really what we wanted to capture this because I've always said H y G and J and K, the two junk bond E t F r PG, they hold what they hold. I mean, they're along the bonds. There's nothing, there's no derivatives, nothing weird. But let's just face it, they're holding something that doesn't trade a lot only about I don't know, less than half the bonds trade every day inside H y G. It's traded over

the counter. And there's a lot of people concerned about this, so we want to make sure that we're sensitive to that concern. But to me, they're not, like, don't ever use them. But this is perfect yellow light PG. Thirteen area.

Good advice is always to be if if you're looking at an E t F and you wouldn't invest in the underlying asset or what it's tracking, you probably shouldn't be investing in the t F because it's just an instrument to get access to those markets that probably should be at the top of everybody's you know et F due diligence guide. That is so true. You're outsourcing the work of going to do it yourself, but doesn't change the underlying especially when you add something like leverage. Right,

what's leverage? So leverage in the e t F space is primarily done through swaps and derivatives and really complicated instruments. But what they'll do is they'll do the same thing as most ETFs, will try to track an index, but they're daily leverage, right, So it's gonna look at the e t F or the index. So, for example, the SMP five hundred, if the SMP five hundred goes up five and this is a three three x levered e t F that day, that e t F should go up.

And they're also inverse leverage, so if it's three times inverse, it will go down. So not only do you have this wildly volatile area, but these are swap agreements, so there's some counterparty risk there. This is a company going to different banks sort of like the guys in the Big short to get the subprime mortgage, and they're saying,

let's just do a swap agreement on the side. The good news is they use several so if one bank were to blow up, there's other ones there and they reset them all the time, so they're always mixing it up. That said, the real issue though, is that you can go up and down a lot in today, Like you know, we look at something like a triple leveraged gold miners back to that one that can go up fifteen percent in a day, we're down, And there's been evidence that

like on tam Mary trade. You know, there's some individual investors who use these things. This should be a total red light simply because of the fact of the leverage. But then on top of that, when you reset the leverage every day, if there's volatility, you're resetting all over the place, and so over the long term, that volatility drag will wipe you out. So even if the index had gone up in that year that volatility, you could be down if you bought and hold it. So leverage

GTF should be treated like hot potatoes. They traded power tools, Yeah, you could lose a hand um dangerously. Low volume was one that we can talk about if it's got low low volume things not trading. So I I feel bad because there's this volume addiction. If it trades a lot, people just trade it more and they think that's what they should do. But you have this opposite problem where like the lesser liquid ones have such a hard problem

getting like an audience. It's like a party. Nobody's at um those you could I'm just picturing your whole high school years right now. Hi guys, Okay, sorry that was too hardy of a laugh. I'd like you more than that. Um listen. Dangerously low volume. Isn't that you can't trade them? Is that you probably should use a limit order. You should. You don't just put a market order in because when they're low volume, a lot of times the spread on the screen will be a little wider, meaning what somebody

will pay versus what they'll sell. That's the spread that's sort of like your toll going in and out of it. So you can put a limit order in the middle of that though, and actually get a price. They put the wide spreads on those lesser liquid ones. So that's

really the warning there. But I would you know, open up the door to people, because if you just go to the highly liquid et s, you're essentially trading stuff that came out in the nineties, might not be the cheapest, might not be the best exposure, So you do want to maybe look deeper in the toolbox. But if you see yellow dangerously low volume, really that should just tell you that, Okay, let me just be careful trading it.

Let me buy using a limit order. And by the way, if something has low volume and you're worried about it closing, it can close. But with E t F s you don't lose all your money. Not E t N you can.

That's the credit risk. But any TF holds the security, so if it closes, it basically just sends a letter saying, look, we this product didn't really work right, Like the waste management et F for the fishing, how about the fishing ETF holds a bunch of Japanese and Norwegian stocks didn't make it, So on the closure date they sell those stocks and give you a check for your n a V. We should add that most of the ones that got dinged with this, we're actually E t N s that

basically don't trade like less than once a month, So we're talking like seriously low volume on the exchanges. Were like, yeah, they barely trade at all. How many of those actually just end up folding a lot and more should I think they should. If if you don't have like a trade in your product, like every day at least one trade, you should probably just close. I mean that is really like ignored. I mean there's even products that are less than say ten million dollars trading a day, which many

of users won't touch. They'll look for at least fifty million a day, but that only gets you a hundred and sixty ETFs. So then you got to go deeper and deeper. But there's probably I don't know four or tf that I think we're probably better off just closing. Okay, so we've got two more, uh, discount or premium issues being one of them. Yes, So we talked about this a little bit before with the potential nav tracking errors UM, but the discount premium issues take really take into account

the difference between the NAV and the price. So before when we talked about the tracking issues, we were talking about performance solely. So over the last year or two years or whatever it may be, the index outperformed or underperformed the actual e t F. So UM discount premium issues just looks at on a given day, say you need to sell in a given time period, for example Egypt. When Egypt closed down, the market was not trading properly,

so you didn't know what the actual NAV was. There was huge disconnects between the price of the e t F and the underlying asset values. These are all things that you should be aware of that have happened in the past with these ETFs. The discount premium is a um It can confuse people. You think discount cheap, premium expensive. The word I use as arbitrage band and I know

that sounds even worse. Basically, basically, how it is it before somebody steps in and goes, okay, the price of the e t F is drifted away from the NAV enough that I'm gonna go by the e t F and sell the underlying vice versa. That arbitrageer is only going to do it when it's worth it to them. So how why does that get before they act? Now, it's gonna the more exotic and less liquid the holdings, the wider it's gonna get. So the premium discount arguably

is another cost of access in that market. You're not gonna see big premiums discounts on SPY or i VV. There's gonna be like a couple of basis points, but you will see them on other exotic products. Those will definitely go in line with the exotic nous of the holdings. So not necessarily bad, it's just something again you need

to know. And in this case, we we look at for two things, right, So we're looking for any time there's massive spikes, so we're talking differences between the NAV and the price, so that's just to alert you that there have been spikes in the past. And then also we're looking for an average discount premium over a given time period that's relatively high. So over the time period, this is never really as close to a NAV as say the smp is. And part of that is just

because of the underlying assets. Like Eric said, if you're investing in Japanese equities, uh, they're not trading at the same time that US market is trading, so there's a little bit less ability to do those arbitrage trading mechanisms. Okay, so this last one is like leverage in that it can get really thick really quickly. Potential futures, roll costs, what's that. Yeah, so this is probably the one that I think is the most important because a lot of

the products that hold futures forget the volatility. I mean those sound dangerous. They are dangerous, but like there's an et F out there called the United States Oil Fund, it sounds pretty innocent. When oil was down a couple of years ago, I had friend texting me, how can I play the oil rebound? And they were buying USO that that that does not really do justice to what it does. So when you have to hold oil futures,

you have to roll them. As the one month gets closer, nobody wants oil delivered to their house, So everybody bails at that contract and it decays as as as it gets closer to when it expires. So then you got to sell that one. The e t F has to go buy the next one out, which is more expensive. When you're selling low and buying high over and over and over, something's not gonna work. Yeah, you are corroding the returns. So USO will have a we call it

roll costs of pcent a year. And if it's said the United States Oil plus crippling contango roll costs or whatever, that would be fine. Maybe wouldn't have to have this system, but it doesn't USO, which sounds contain the oil fund. Yeah, which you know, bigger meta picture here which we've talked about before is that's the ultimate risk with e t f s is something can be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Yeah,

and that is the future's role cost automatic three. We don't want anyone to get concerned, you know, to worry about this. Plus the taxation. If you hold the ones that actually hold futures, you've got different taxation issues. And then there's one that leverage on top of that. And then some of those are e t n s, So those are the ones that actually start adding up and get into like eight nine infractions. Not to say that some of these e t f s aren't really good

at what they're doing. For example, if my grandma's investing in the markets, she shouldn't be investing in a vix e t N. That's as a long term investment. But if you're a hedge fund or a trader and you're trying to head your volatility, rest of a vix et F such as v x X as a really good investment for what they're trying to do. And that's what the the system is trying to do. It's trying to say that this is an alert. You should be aware of this um. If you are aware of it and

you're still okay with it, go ahead. So et F stoplight system. Where can I find it? Well, it's on the Bloomberg terminal. That's where James and I publish all our research. However, not only can you find it there, if you email me, I'll send you a copy of it. It's ebal tunists at Bloomberg dot net. And we wanted to get out there. It's it's on the terminal. We write to it. But it's okay that it goes out. It's a simple thing, right, Yeah, it's a universal thing.

We think that there should be an independent body doing this, and maybe not the SEC or the issuers. So I think that's uh, there's a need for it. And if it's not this system, maybe it'll spark somebody else to do it, or people will just get int into thinking about e t F s in terms of having nuanced or five levels of safe and dangerous and not just these are good, these are bad, green, yellow, red. James, Eric,

thanks thanks for listening to New trillions. Until next time, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, and a bunch of other places. I probably haven't heard that yet. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Weber Show, Eric's at Eric ball Tunes, James is at j S E y f F. Trillions is produced by Magnus Hendrickson with a lift from Tofur four as this week, Francesco Levi is the head of Bloomberg Podcast, but