Now There Are One-Stop Shops to Launch Your ETF

you want an e t F out there. That is your idea. There are some companies now that you can go to. They have all everything taken care of for you. All you do is give them some money. They do all the sort of infrastructure work on on your fund. They hook you up with even lead market makers and the whole nine yards. A lot going on beneath the surface, which we should We're going to explore in this episode.

At the end of the day, boom, you have an e t F is treading on all these changes, and then your main job is to market it right and if it's active, I guess you have to pick the stocks and do your strategy, but they take care of everything else. So this is called the white label business and it's it's big, it's growing quickly. Um, there's the three big ones we have on today, who I'm calling the big three in their own regard. But the reason I wanted to explore this is Goldman just mentioned they're

going to start a white label business themselves. This was major. This is the first massive firm that saw this as a potential. And if Goldman has their own clients saying, hey, I wanna launch an e t F can you help me? That is such a good sign for the E t

F industry if Goldman sees this. So but these the people we have on today have been doing this for a long time, and they're also people who they know everything going on the e t F business Like they're they're they just have a lot of an interesting seat

to the e t F game. Joining us for this episode West Gray of Alpha Architect, Mike Venudo Title Financial Group, and Garrett Stevens of Exchange Treated Concepts, this time on Trillions White Label et F s WES Mike Garrett woken to Trillions than awesome to be here again, likewise, appreciate it Okay, Mike, I've got an idea for an e t F. I come to you, You give me an e t F in a box, and then I get to wrap it. This is like perfect for the holidays, right,

I just put Goldman wrapping paper on it. Yeah, let's not put Goldman wrapping paper on it. Let's put title wrapping paper on it. Um. But yeah, it's a chassis, it's a wrapper, it's a structure, right, And it's just a better way to deliver things. And the most successful ETFs we've seen are ones that already have a successful idea and a less successful wrapper. And if we can just enhance the return to the end investor by putting

it in ETF, it's a win win for everybody. Um, let's let's rewind the clock here a little bit and um. You know, er, I want to talk to you because in my mind I could be wrong, but you were the first white label issue I believe. I remember once writing it might even been my first book. I wrote How Faith Shares that you had a company called faith Shares and it didn't work out, so you used your

exempt of relief to help others launch their funds. And you had this huge success and I, UM, I wanted to use the word resurrected because of the sort of I was like, they resurrected themselves into this new entity. And it's you know, a great story of when one door closes, another one opens. Can you talk about that process and how you sort of got the idea for this? Yeah, so that's exactly what happened. You know, we launched the

five faith shares funds. They were just not successful and gathering assets, and you know, it was a classic story of starting a new business and it you know, taking twice as long and costing twice as much as it was supposed to Originally. When when we launched the business, you know, you still had to get exempt of relief back in those days. So this was two thousand eight,

two thousand nine. Um. If you remember the market environment in two thousand and eight when we were trying to raise startup capital to launch a new financial services company, was really terrible timing for that, but we got it done. Two thousand nine, we finally got our exemptive relief. It took about a year from the SEC to grant that. We spent nearly a million dollars in legal fees alone

to get the exemptive relief. Back in those days, you know, those added expenses and added time took away from, frankly, the viability of the products once they got to market. And you know, we ended up closing three of the five funds after about eighteen months. When we did that, we had other firms start calling us basically to say, look, can we buy you We just want your exemptive relief right. We don't want to wait a year with the SEC.

We want to get to market faster because once you had that exemptive relief, you can launch funds in seventy five days and that's the statutory review period the SEC staff has to review a new prospective filing, so it's much faster, and we had all the infrastructure there. You know, the multiple series trust model had been around in the mutual fund world for a long time, but no one had done anything like it in the E t F

business at that point. So you know, once we had people call and saying, hey, can we just buy your infrastructure, that's really where you know, I had the idea like, look, why don't we use what we have here launch funds for other people? Because if someone had had this out and available when we launched ours. We could have saved a ton of time, a ton of startup capital, and been to market you know, a lot faster and probably had a much higher chance of success than than what

we ended up with. So that's how we got here. And to just talk about real quick, your first couple clients. I when I think of you, I think of robo um and when I think of white label et f that are hits. Robot again is one of them that comes to mind. There's been a couple of pretty big hits. Was that the first one? Or how did the first couple come about? And did did they come to you have the idea for robot or were you like, hey, I got this thing. Yeah, no, No, they came to us.

So UM, they were not the first. They actually very first fund we launched was y mlp UM an MLP e t F for firm called Yorkville at the time. UM. That one actually did very well. It ended up with something like four hundred million something like that before they ended up selling that to Vannack after a few years had a successful exit there. UM Alpha Clone was one of the other ones we launched early. That one ended up doing doing well also a few hundred million dollars

in that fund. Um. And then and then of course Robo was the biggest success. You know, it's typical of the E. T F business right in in that fund. So it you know, organically picked up. I think it was ninety or a hundred million dollars within the first sixty or ninety days. But then it's set there, you know, for three or four years at that level, just kind of churning, waiting, building a track record. And then its

theme hit right, it came into vogue. People started hearing on the news about drones and about robotics, you know, ruling warehouses and taking factory jobs, and everything was about that on the nightly news and everything. That fund picked up two billion dollars the next year after sitting at a hundred million for three or four and so that's there. Oh, you love to see it. I love when I love it's I called the indie feel good hit of the year.

Robo was definitely that one year. Um, every year there's a couple and uh, it's fun to watch because it's hard to be an indie independent issuer or somebody using a white label. Um, you need a little luck, you need the stars to align and um, it's nice when it happens because I want that part of the industry to thrive, so others want to take chances because of the India is where you see the innovation in my opinion, Yeah, no,

I agreed. And you know what's interesting about our our business and the funds that we launched, It's launched by experts in the field. Right. It's not very often someone comes to us with an idea that they have, you know, they've never done before, which is different than a lote of the major issuers. You know, you're I Shares or some of these big firms. They're looking to launch products that they can market and sell. The people who come to us, you know, our our experts and what they do.

Our MLP fund was done by people who have been investing in m LPs for many years. The robo guys were investors in the space and knew it and not find an E t F that fit what they wanted to do. The uranium fund we launched, you know, again, somebody who's intimately familiar with that industry had been in it for many years, so you come up with better products.

In my opinion, when you have experts working on it and wanting to launch it and coming through someone like us rather than a marketing team trying to decide, you know, what product they think they can sell and trying to you know, throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks. Okay, well, I'm gonna bring you in here. I've got a big idea. Maybe no expert, but I got ideas. Um and uh so I'm gonna give you a call. What happens next? And what do you look for to bring successful products

to market? Yeah? So, unfortunately we've been surviving in this terrible business called e t F for you know, mist ten years now. So usually on our first call, my job is to anti sell going into the ETF business. Right Like, this is so expensive. You gotta have five years ready to go. You gotta light money on fire. If you don't, if you're not ready for war, just go back home. Yes, I am the cold shower because we don't want people, uh to get into something that

they're not really ready for. Right. Um And and even though obviously our objective of our et F hit level platform is to lower bears entry to allow a lot more people to you know, access this great rapper, it's I just feel It's very important to make sure people understand that. You know, it's not a panacea. It's a

lot of work, a lot of effort. But the good news is when you segment into people that you know, they listen to your pain trains story and they're they're still standing there, that means they're probably pretty well fit to be successful in the et F industry. I feel I know you were in the military. I feel like this is the basic training. If you can make it through those couple of weeks, maybe you're good. Um, quick question, explain to us again. We'll stick with West on this one.

What do you do? Um? So I have the idea. Let's say my idea is, um, Philadelphia based companies. You probably tell me to go away. You'd probably colder. Let's just assume I'm standing after your whole speech, Um, what are you going to do for me? Exactly? Yeah, so you really There's there's kind of three areas of e t F needs. Right, there's legal compliance and just broad based brain damage I call it. Uh, there's portfolio management

and train execution, and then there's marketing and distribution. Right, those are kind of like the three big levels you can pull. So different white labels are different. We what we do is we deal with all the brain damage, so the legal compliance, regulatory component, we do, all the portfolio manager train execution component. But the marketing and distribution we keep that open architecture, and I think the gentleman

on the call have have actually offer those services. But that's our core focus is how the heck do we get you to market as cheap as humanly possible with full transparency and totally ran key from operational standpoint. But you've got to do the selling and distribution and everything. Okay, So Mike, when West gives someone a cold shower, um, maybe they come running to you. What do you do that's different than than what West does? That's a great question.

You know. It's funny because all three of us share leads and put people back to each other. Um, you know for some of these cold showers and for some of the things that different people want. Uh, you know, for for Eric, I just reserved the tickers C S, t K for cheese steak, so we can do it. Yep. Um, So uh, what do we really do? So our our

process includes more of an assessment. We do kind of that McKenzie style report and we do come back with the same kind of thing that Wes or Garrett will saying, hey, you're not ready, or you are ready, or you need this to be ready. A right, So we we go

through all four kind of buckets. We do strategy, product, uh, sales, and marketing, and we score everybody against everyone else we've ever done this too, um, and then we come back and say, here's your ProForma, here's your your assessment score, and yes we want to work with you, or no, we think you should either go back to the drawing board or call West or called Garrett. And you know, I guess the question for all you guys, are you

what you obviously do all this work for them? Is this an upfront cost or do you get like a percentage of the expense ratio? I guess I'll just all three of you start with Garrett. Yeah. So you know, we do a lot of consultation with them upfront. Right, there's a lot of education that goes into it. Let's figure out your product, let's help you get the idea kind of nailed down here, make sure we all like it, make sure we can do it. Frankly, right with all

the forty Act regulations, involved. Once we're all comfortable with that and everyone's agreed, we're ready to get going. They do pay a set up fee to get the product to markets, so that covers the legal that covers in the exchange listing fees. You know, we build custom websites, marketing materials, you know, all of those things to get to market. That's a fixed fee for all of that.

Once you get to market. Then what we charge at etc. For our portion of it is a number of basis points with an annual minimum, and then all of the other expenses to run the fund or just direct pass throughs from the service providers, and so we break it all out provide transparency on it. Um. But we've just basically done a cost plus model is how we operate. And well, Mike, you guys are similar, Yeah, very similar.

Set up fee and then a fixed costs and then declining BIPs costs as you get bigger, with the objective of of allowing the operators to basically leverage our operating leverage as much as possible. Yeah, so again same model. UM are slight differences are we do have ad on services the marketing and sales that you can pay hard dollars for and uh. We also offer fun financing right if somebody comes to us and has a great idea and wants to launch it but doesn't have the full

financial backing. Uh. In cases where we really like the idea, we'll put up our own economics and you know, own a part of the profit. I think the key thing though, for all three of us is none of us really make any money on the minimums. Right. That's the brain damages West likes to call it, or I call it the headache business. The minimums are just there to pay

for the the you know, the day to day. The real way we make money is when our clients make money, right Like, Um, we are not interested in having a fund that stays at million for six years. Like. That's not gonna make us money or make the client happy. It's not gonna make etc. Happy. It's not gonna make et f architect happy or alf architect happy. Um. So we're really partners with our clients at the end of the day, all three of us. You know, Joel, they're

talking about this. I just went through the process of writing a book. They're like publishers. This reminds me a lot of the publishing business or there you want hits man. Yeah, And one thing the publishers look for, and I've learned this over with the two books I wrote, is a platform. Do you have reach? You know, are you in the media, do you go to conferences? Like basically can you sell the book? It seems like there's a similar vibe here.

I guess, um, let me go back to Mike, because somebody you just took on is this guy, Um meet Kevin and he's a YouTuber with two million subscribers, but he's not in the financial business. How much do you look for, say, can you bring your own assets like b y O A versus Hey, you've got this huge platform and we're we'll roll the dice with you because

you've got reached. Yeah. So the number one determining success of an et F is seed capital, right, Like if you go through the list of all the hits, I mean, Robo as a hit, like yes, but it's because they had like ninety million in seed capital and they waited for the market to come to them. And they're all great, awesome people with great knowledge and that's ace, but the market had to come to him and they had to

survive through seed capital. So an absence of seed capital call it we We pretty much tell anyone who doesn't have twenty million, you probably don't want to do this, right, Um, the in absence you have network or platform, right, so fis on our platform, we're on their platform. Meet Kevin George Noble with what he does on Twitter spaces, um, Adam Curran with his radio show for y'all, like a

platform is the closest substitute for seed capital. I do want to talk about greatest hits because that's the fun part, right So, West, if you had one hit that you were the most proud of, what would it be. I'm gonna say the fund that started our et F white label business, which would be per Tolls Freedom Fund um F R d M. And it's you know, just it's just her literally, uh and she's already got two in her seventy mill and that fund maybe it's higher at

this point. And and you can kind of see the writing on the wall just based on number emails and crates and activity that comes with that. The pitch when she came to you, How how formed was it? It was very well formed and and long story short, you know, we've been in the et F business for a long long time, and we're we're running asset management business called alf Architect, and we had no interest in ever opening our infrastructure to anybody because you know, we just say, hey,

we're low cost infrastructure provider. Why would we want to give us other people? And then Perth, who I known for probably five six years prior. You know, she's always pitched me on freedom and you know, obviously used to be in the Marine Corps and I'm a huge fan of you know, go America, Freedom, all that kind of stuff, and so I was obviously amiable to her idea at the outset. And then finally, uh, you know, after enough strong arm and and twisted my elbow, uh, we said, fine, part,

We're we're gonna do it. You're gonna be our guinea pig into you know, doing et F servicing for someone else. And so we kind of started it basically with her um and so once we made that decision to engage in the business, you know, there was no looking back. You know, now the rest is history. But I've always liked her idea. It was always very well baked. It's just like anything when you launch a fund, you know, it's a long game thing. And she's been playing the

long game and she's finally winning it. Mike, I'm gonna ask you the same question, what what's the what's the greatest hit that you're most proud of? I mean, we've had some awesome hits, and I think I normally would just go with the biggest one, like our part, But I'm gonna bring out a real in d one. Um. There's this company sp Funds. They were at eighty million dollar r i A focused on Sharia compliant. They are are sleeper hit, right, Nobody would ever think that this

was gonna hit. Now it's like three million, three different funds. They have the only secook fund. They have a Sharia real estate fund with US Sharia SMP five hundred with the full license, and their little eighty million dollar r a A is now almost four hundred million all in because they embraced the et f rapper to get the distribution, to get the access, like the wire houses call us about it, like West and J can tell you, Uh, Garrett can tell you, like it's freaking hard to to

get the uh the wirehouses to call you. So that's my sleeper hit. That's the one that was out there for six seven months and then uh College radio made it a hit awesome and Garrett, what about you, Well, Robo is certainly the one, you know, that we're most known for. One of our biggest you know, individual funds UM e m q Q was another one that was

really kind of the first of its kind. When when we did that, it's it's the you know, the Amazons and UM those kind of companies of the emerging markets, and so it's really an interesting thesis there that really took off and and was interesting. You know, say, one of our other, you know, bigger clients that has turned out to be a really interesting model is Cabana, and so they've got eight funds with us at this point.

But they're an s M A manager and what they did was converted those s M A s into E t F s and so they're running the same strategies they ran as s M A s in e t fs. So what they're able to do is give their clients a much more tax efficient vehicle, a lot lower trading costs when they're just trading you know, the E t F s themselves, and they're underlying our our other E t F s UM same strategy just a lot more

tax efficient vehicle. And it's been a really interesting thing to be a part of, and it's been a big kind of success story. We're seeing a lot of interest in that space. And uh, my question for you, just to pick you as a proxy amongst the three, what percent of the pitches you here end up becoming an E t F? Roughly, I would say under maybe, Um, look, there's this the era of field of dreams is over right.

You can't just build it and they'll come. I've tried that, like I tried it with Garrett right, and he was a great person to work with. Right before we were a white labeler. We used a white labeler and um, had I listened to Eric, I'd be quite a bit more richer. You know. We did the t E t F, which was the E t F that tracked the whole et F industry. And Eric said, you should have kept that to you should have got the ticker meta. Um. I really wish I would have. But by the way,

hold on, Joel, Joel, Joel needs to know this. I advised him to use Meta. Mark Zuckerberg paid Will Hershey Roundhill, the equivalent of a small Caribbean island for that ticker. We would Mike wouldn't even be on this call right now if he had done that and listened to me. Joel, what do you think of that? I mean, I'm gonna say that there are ten percent of things that come out of your mouth that that broken flock is right. I'll take it at least I'm right a little bit.

All right, Um, go ahead, you were so, you were so right, Um, but you know my problem was I had the wrong product for the wrong time, right, and and you gotta be honest with people about it. Um. It all sounded great at the right at that time, but you know I didn't have the runway. I didn't have those things. I learned all the mistakes. And the beauty of what the three of us do nowadays is because we've made all the mistakes ourselves, we help prevent

others from making them. We can guide people through to the all the necessary conditions that can allow for you to be successful. Um, West, I want to ask you that question. You know, what percent do you take on? And I guess of the ones you don't take gone? Are they mostly like one man shows or one person shows where they're just some guy or girl out there just looking to launch an e t F or are they like big companies active managers let's say that just

severely overestimate the demand for their stuff. Well, I mean the other guys could probably tell you you see everything under the sun when you're in this business. And we we've gotten much better at just putting out information and segmenting to the buyers that we actually want and and really are number one thing that we're looking for as culture. Right, So if you're coming in, we call them et f innovators,

like the Perth Tolls of the world. You know, just for karma's sake, I don't care if you're damned near broke. But if you have a great idea, you have the passion, you have the culture, you've got a long game mentality, you know, we're gonna probably help you out. Um. And then on the flip side, like you could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, have billions of dollars, but you know, your compliance nightmare, your culturally just it's not like somebody I want to deal with or your jerk.

We don't care. We're not going to do business with that person, right. Um, So for us that there's a huge aspect of like cultural fit and mentality to win, and it's it's really not um as tied into like you know, how rich you are, how much au M you are, it's just because we think culture wins in the end. And just to follow up UM West and then if if anybody else wants to come into this, we've talked and I know you and I've talked about conversion.

So there's launching a new e t F for a company, and then there's converting something right into an e t F. And are you seeing more request for conversions of say mutual funds or separate accounts and is that something you guys are also doing. Yes, I mean that's pretty much

exclusively what we're doing right now. So so next year we're gonna probably launch another thirty funds, and I'd say nine of them we're gonna be tied to either mutual fund, hedge fund, or sim a conversions because that's really what we're focused on. Like I said, we'll always do the E t F entrepreneur that shows up with passion desire to win, but that's not frankly our focus. Uh, we're kind of all in on the conversion game at this point.

How about you, Mike. I wanted to chime in on this one too, So Um, I was on with a twenty billion dollar mutual fund shop yesterday talking through the conversion stuff. Where in the process of doing one right now, and I'm excited about that. I would say the first wave for all of us the last couple of years has been s m A and hedge funds converting. You know,

doing that that one's a lot easier. The mutual fund conversion takes more time and effort, and it's not the playbook isn't as cookie cutter because there's all kinds of aspects to it. Like some people still have mutual funds where individuals have subscribed directly, meaning they don't even have a brokerage account. So when you convert, where do you send those shares? Right? So there's and then you have the issues of if it's a wire house, are they gonna let the E t F stay on if they're

no longer getting there? Um, there's a proper word for it, but I'm just gonna call it kickback. Uh. And So I've seen a lot of interesting things happening here, some really cool things that have come up though lately there's one that we're talking to that's a mutual fund that's uh kind of short biased and it's the type of thing that people want to trade. But since the mid two thousands where we had all those issues with mutual funds, people can't trade them anymore. If you buy him, you

have to hold them thirty days. That's not true. It inn e t F. So it like totally makes sense that they would convert that mutual fund to an e t F because the e t F allows for trading, like allows you to get in and get out, an optionality and all that. We've also seen like the success we had with Gotham Joel green Blott's company, he created an e t F that was the core equity holdings

in his mutual funds. So he's got five or six mutual funds, all of them have the same core equity holdings, and then they have options on the edges for different buffers within those mutual funds. Now by having an e t F that he just holds in the mutual fund, he's literally passing on the benefits the tax benefits of the e t F to the mutual fund holders. Um. So there's more than one to skin. The conversion game is kind of the point, right, there's there's different aspects

to it in different benefits. And Garrett, how about you, what are you what are you seeing in this conversion conversation that that's of note? Now, it's exactly the same, right, I think we're all having the same conversations, you know, probably with the same people in some cases. But you know that's what we're seeing as well, right, people they have to make conversions the hedge funds and then lately, more recently, it has been the mutual fund aspect as well,

where you know, it's just a better rapper. I think we're all obviously believers in the t F rapper and you know, the mutual fund industry as a whole continues to see outflows and those are those are coming to the E t F world, and so you know, we're kind of on the front lines of that, I would say, and um, seeing the exact same thing that these guys are. We We've got a lot of conversations going on right now, a couple of filings coming with with some conversions for

next year. That it's just going to be the way the way it is going forward. Okay, So how big is this conversion way of going to get Derek. So everything you guys are saying is music to my ears because we went out eighteen months ago after d f A. This was like, this was a huge moment in my opinion. D f A huge name converted in e T F UM Guinness was the first, but d f A was

the first big boy. And we wrote a note saying that this is going to be over a trillion dollars converted in the next ten years, and they'll be hundreds of funds. Right now, we're about I want to say, thirty five conversions at about sixty three billion. So I guess, Garrett Um, you know you think we might hit a trillion in ten years. I do think that, Yeah, I do that. The E T F Rapper is just such

a better vehicle that it really cannot be ignored. And if you're a mutual one company and you're not thinking about this right now, you're you're behind the curve. UM, your shareholders, um and investors you know, need this, need this rapper. And so I think that's you know, really going to be a huge driver of this and these assets coming out of the big fun complexes and into

their own ets. Okay, well, I'm gonna bring it back to you, and I want to ask we we talked about um indies there um and you know you you mentioned Perth. I want to talk about the dynamic of like the indies like her and some of the others that we mentioned versus the more institutional players like the Goldman How is that going to play out in the

white label stuff? Because if the the Goldman's and the JP Morgan's of the world just keep coming and asking for more boxes, like, how much room will there be for for indies going forward when when those institutional names throw around so much money and have the platforms they have. So I always tell people that with boutiques, they live on being fast, which is an acronym because I'm from the military, and that's basically being flat authentic, social savvy

and a thought leader. And so I do not think that like, let's say Larry Fink is like, hey, I'm gonna go launch a freedom fund. Does anyone believe Larry Fink cares about freedom? Of course not everyone knows per Toll lives and dies on freedom, right, And do you want to invest with the person who wrote the book or do you want to invest with the person that you know talked about the author who wrote the book.

Like most people, if the book is reasonably price, are gonna want to buy the book from the actual author. So I'm always evergreen bullish on authentic people who do what they say, They do things right, and they price their products affordably and reasonably. I don't see how the big monster firms can ever break that right. Boutique survived for a reason. They're better at their job than monster product manufacturers. Mike, you wanna you want to fight back on that? Uh, I want to say I'm not scared

of Golden And at all. Honestly, I think they're gonna have a tough time with this. UM. This is a headache business. This is the type of thing where you've got to have really great people. There's only so much automation any of us can do because we are fiduciaries at the end of the day. Like, this is not

this is not UM some retail widget business. This is a forty Act or thirty three act fiduciary business where you can automate a lot of things, but you can't automate out that compliance component and you can't automate out that people component. So I don't see any threat to the kinds of people that we're talking about being sold Goldman instead of US. I think Goldman did this because

they see the wave. They know they know that the average investor under thirty can't even buy a mutual fund because their money is at robin Hood or so FI or public Um or whatever. And those places aren't even set up for mutual funds. You can't you can't even put in five letter tickers. Their their systems don't even allow for it, right, they don't have these contracts with all this fat and and extra money to be thrown around. Um. Honestly, I think in uh three to five years, Goldman is

going to have to come by one or all of us. Okay, well that's a that's a good transition to Puerto Rico. Yeah. Um, you guys are all over the place. West is in Puerto Rico. Mike, you're in Long Island with Billy Joel and uh, Garrett, you're in Oklahoma, right, Garrett, let's end with you. We'll close this out. You know, you kind of kicked all this off back in the day putting out those funds. Um, is this business grown like you thought it would or more so, and where do you

see it going? You know, it has grown more so than than actually I thought would have originally. It's um, it's really not a niche kind of business anymore. Originally, that's how we thought about it, was launching niche or thematic funds, and the acceptance of the e t f UM has really just grown so dramatically that you know,

we launched funds for all kinds of issuers. You know, we launched funds for ubs, we launched funds for Alliance Bernstein, we launched a physical gold fund for the Government of Western Australia. You know, we had half a billion dollars in gold bars stored underground in the Perth Mint in Australia. So it's really this huge spectrum of players in this and that's only going to get bigger, you know. And to the point about Goldman, you know, jumping into this

as well. You know, our view on that is that it's really Goldman looking probably more for trading revenue right there. I don't think anyone's convinced they really want to be a white label issuer. I think they're looking for a way to get a piece of the trading business out of this. If you try on their website, it all it says is to contact your Goldman representative, so you can't even do it if you're not a Goldman client

with them at the moment. So to Mike's point, we really don't see them as at We see it as just another validation of people wanting to get into this industry. So I think it it's really only going to grow significantly. You know, the world continues to shrink, trading products continue to be able to be spread around the world, lots of different areas and avenues. You know, you've got folks in Europe doing similar things. Now you've got was Stone is just gotten into this in Europe, obviously a huge

name over there and and doing interesting things. Han is over there. So it's really um you know, I think the growth potential is still just massive for all of us. Okay, I'm gonna ask a question of each of you. Mike knows what's coming. It's our favorite kicker question that we ask on each episode of Trillions. Mike, I'm going to kick it off with you your favorite et F ticker other than your own, and I gotta I gotta admit

that you've had a great one before. I can't remember it, but you can't repeat it, and you can't use anyone in your stable of white label ETF either. I totally get it. Oh man, favorite ticker, now, Man, I should have remembered that this was coming, so you, magnus, you can edit out me floundering here trying to think on uh you know, And I'm gonna go with the original

one that my partner Giermo did, which was lit. That's a global X one right, It's very clear what it is, and it was ahead of its time, and it was one of the first the Mattox and it always reminds me of how I got to build this company because both Guerremo and I came from the outside this industry and we met at Global X and build titled together. Wes uh. You know, I have to give shout out to meb probably and his marijuana fun toke Ye. I always found that one to be pretty entertained. So the

field that is point for two. Oh, I wonder where that came from. That that et F was seriously inspired Garrett Um. You know, I think um one of my favorite just tickers as Jet Super easy to remember. Our descriptive um pretty good. We do have some that we sub advise that we didn't launch, but we sub advice for Round Hill and those guys have great tickers. You know, they've got weed, they've had, they did have meta. They do a really good job with theirs. Mike Garrett West,

thanks for joining us on Trillions. Thank you, thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Weaker Show. He's at Eric Falcunos. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnets and Drew Ye