No Jacket Required: Inside the World of New School Wealth Management

which is very on the show Josh Brown. You a lot of people on Bloomberg Opinion regular Yeah, a lot of people know them from Twitter. They all have a ton of followers. They are advisors, but they're not your grandfather's advisor. They're kind of very cool about it. Their fee base, they use low cost index funds, some active, They're on Twitter a lot, and I think they're leading what's a sort of move away from the traditional both style and strategy of a wealth manager or a broker.

And so this conference really was to me the future of the wealth management industry in a nutshell. A lot of independent young advisors who were there really to learn how to get better. A lot of it was on technology, how advisors use technology, and E t F s frankly are a technology so a lot of them were E t F users. I talked to a bunch of people there. Um it was sold out seven people people first time. Yep, they're already planning a second one in California next year.

Where was this one? This was in Scott's Dale, Arizona. And some of the sessions included like tech as a catalyst for growth, direct indexing, liquid alto e s G, bringing your brand on social Media. I was in a panel discussion called Battle the Pundits, similar to that one I do in Well. They didn't judge this one, but I felt I didn't you know that it was early in the morning. Was eight in the morning. So Todd rosenblooth, as you know he I think he was straw stirring

the drink this time. He took a few friendly shots at Matt Dave myself and he got us going. But mostly I think we're pretty pretty calm up there. You know, nobody was really doing anything too crazy. We were just trying to give our take on the market and ets. This time on Trillians Eric's dispatch from Wealth Stack. Okay, Eric, so you went to Wealth Stack with a recorder. Who was the first big fish that you got? Josh Brown? Um, Yeah, you know, I men him a bunch over the years.

He's really great, really personable, and uh he's on Twitter. He's amazing on Twitter, and he his handle is at reform broker um and you can see his fingerprints all over this conference. So I thought let's start with him because he's really the mastermind, him and his company behind this, including inside ETF. So I gotta give hi a lot of credit. They are master conference organizers. So here's just

talking about the Goalie event and wy Arizona. We have, I think some of the leading technology companies that serve advisors. Hold on, I'm just turning the game down a little there, go am I too loud for this? Yeah, I saw a little red. I didn't want to blow it out, so you can see it just come down an Alright. We have most of the practitioners who are forward thinking and progressive advisors, and then we have most of the

financial technology providers that are serving this audience. So it's very engaged audience, young advisors, a lot of energy, and I think the networking is really what brings the whole thing together. So why Scottsdale in September. It's a hundred degrees, Like, what's the logic there? We're not very bright eric um, So Scottsdale in September. You know what, it's a beautiful hotel, it's a great venue. We really don't want people milling

around outdoors. There was a hike this morning led by Dany Egan from Betterment took a whole group of advisors up into Camelback Mountain. Two dead and of course we pray for their families. Did people really die? No? Okay, good. I'm sure some came close to it, but it's it was again a hundred degree hike. I saw some photos from there. It was kind of cool. A lot of

people took early morning hikes up to the mountain. The idea of having it more, yeah, the idea of having an events somewhere where most people did not want to be outside, I think was sort of the rationale they were giving. And by the way, you know that, um, that one was a little loud. There's a gain on the mic, and so excuse the little hiccups, and I I kind of like get better as we go. You'll see the This is why we typically have our colleagues

do the field reports. That's right, Um, okay, So next one is just I thought it was cool because it was very casual. I did not bring slacks. I wore jeans the whole time, and that was completely the right move. Nobody there had a tie on, and may many people were even more dressed down. I mean I thought so. Some some people were in T shirts. I dig it. I personally think this is where things are going. I

enjoyed it. Here's josh On on the casual attire. I think there's the sense that a previous generation of advisors they were extraordinarily image conscious and they were always worried about saying the wrong thing and coming off too casually, and that seems to have gone away. And I think this generation of advisors it's more about the substance and the ideas and less about who's wearing a suit. You know who like we you know, none of us are

trying to look and act like our fathers. We're trying to be our own people, and I think we want our clients to understand that we're real and we're authentic. Um and We're not putting on a show for them, We're we're being ourselves, and I think that resonates. I think it works really well in this era. So having the conference that was slightly more laid back and fun and youthful and energetic, it just made perfect sense to me.

How many flip flops? Well, on Sunday I saw a lot that was the sort of half conference half like hanging up by the pool day but Monday not not really. Um, some some people in sneakers, but mostly people had shoes. Do you feel about it if somebody's in flip flops managing your money? That one step too far on a Monday at the conference? Probably I think that's a little a little bit too far. But the common dress was like maybe a shirt jacket, jeans. Uh. Some people just

had a short on like a um dress shirt on. Um. There was you know, a couple of people who were a little more dressed up than that, But like I said, it was very casual, more casual than inside ets, which is pretty casual as it is. How do you feel about it when people at Bloomberg wear shorts to work like the R and D guys. Just in general, I get jealous because they're so in demand they can just come to work in shorts and it's fine. I saw one guy once and I was just like coders, No, No,

I don't. I don't think that's appropriate. It might be a summer Friday, but like, dude, you're at work. No, there should be some level decorum, and there was. People look kind of cool. I gotta say so again, this is all part of a package that an advisor. Advisors interact with the clients, and so I think it says a lot about what the industry is going. Totally. Who

else did you see? So? Nate Dacy, who is the host of another E t F podcast called et F Prime, also a friend because I was on the one last week, so um, and Nate's had me on a bunch of times. His podcast is really good. They do it out of Kansas City and it's real, um, real easy to understand. They really break it down. I love it. It's called et F Prime. Anyway, he was there and he talked

about tech. Tech was a big thing here because if you are a client out there with a wealth manager, your expectations for how to interface with them are changing. And he addresses that if you think about how clients or how everyday people interact with technology. Is so Amazon, Uber, Netflix, that's their expectation when it comes to financial advice as well. Those companies, for better or worse, And I would say for better, have set client expectations around what technology and

what what that should look like for them. So I think as an advisor we have to be thinking about that. You know, this one resonates with me a little bit because if you dabble with any sort of robo platform, it's it's pretty amazing how good it is. And then you go to like a bank and you know, check your bank balance and it's like, man, I can barely even transfer money around here. It's amazing how how good it's gotten um in a very short period of time.

And and and he's right, you think about like a a UI, like a Netflix, and it's got to be like what is driving financial services now? Yeah, there was a couple presenters who talked a lot about this, so I think that was a big part of it. There's a guy, Eric Clark from Oriyan who provides a lot of this back office technology. What he said was interesting and I tweet this out of a lot of activity. Some people agreed. Some people didn't, which is that the advisor value proposition

used to be investments. You know, I can get to the mutual funds, I can get you this now, or the stocks now. It's planning, right, because investments are cheap, and he thinks it's going to migrate to the client experience in the future, as even planning gets priced down by the robot. So client experience was a big one again. And this is where I think Ridholtz has a lot going for it because you know them, they're writing a

lot there. They're adding value in all these different ways because again, every time something is value, it tends to get priced down and commoditized. So he's trying to stay ahead of that process. Okay, so we've we've talked to one of the guys who helps organize it. We've talked to you know, a peer of yours with a rival podcast. Who else we got, uh Nicole Boyson, who is a finance professor of Northeastern University. Do you know her before? Yeah?

I met her um on Twitter, but then in person I met her at the Democratized quant Conference which is down at Villanova every year. Anyway, she's really smart, Um, she was down there because of course she teaches, but she also does a lot of work with writing papers about brokers and advisors, and some are both, Like you know, a Goldman could be both a broker and an advisor, but the payment systems of these how you get paid is different, and that incentive has really completely changed the

whole apparatus. As on they moved from broker to a fee based advisor, and this is that move is why Passive is so big. So I asked her to just explain that move. And most people at this conference probably, I mean, I wouldn't give a percentage, but a high percentage are fee based advisors not brokers. I love that an academic is actually studying that. So I mean, in the old days, you know, you're a broker and you

get paid by the mutual fund. And then that started to shift in more and more advisors became fee based advisors, and then within that space, more and more of the fee based advisor said, you know what, I'm gonna go out on my own. I don't want to be affiliated with a broker. I'm gonna start my own shop really focus on holistic financial planning, getting away from the transaction based way of being paid. And I think that this group,

it's a young group, it's a vibrant group. People are really excited about serving their clients, and there's a huge push I think in two ways. I mean, one is technology, trying to really leverage technology so that you can focus on time with meeting with clients as opposed to you know, running an Excel spreadshea and trying to figure out what their assets look like. And then I think the other piece is really really serving clients in ways that probably

we're more lip service before. So really integrating estate planning, really integrating kind of college planning and big picture planning and looking at a client's um you know where they're going, as opposed to just here's your canned allocations see you in a year. She really, I think nail the whole concept here. It's just aggressively, relentlessly increasing your value proposition so you can stay a step ahead of all the

stuff that's getting priced down. I mean that's why I think it's interesting that like Barry and Co. Are actually the ones doing this right like there. I mean they epitomized this absolutely. I mean I have this idea for a book called The Big Long which is sort of tracking some of these fee based advisors who started this early on and who have been pretty optimistic about the market.

I think the big short inspired a bunch of people to be very nerdy and call bubbles like It's like just the way Gordon Getko inspired a bunch of people who want to rule the world. I think the Big short inspired bubble callers, and these guys have remained optimistic. They fought back, and it's worked just staying long, staying optimistic, keeping people on a plan, investing not to gamble, but to benefit from the value created by people who go to work every day at these big companies. So this

again small companies. You're right, So, uh, this is definitely again a whole mindset that's different in many different categories here. So I think that's why we're covering. I think that's why I went. And I think, uh, that incentive again, how you get paid, is such a big reason behind the rise of passive because once your your fee is a percentage of your client's assets and you know what's up, you're kind of like, well, I'm not gonna pay a lot.

I I just wanted a lot of broad exposure, and I'll pick and choose my battles of where I go active, but otherwise just give me cheap beta, all right, Who's next? Um? Next is Tyrone Ross um. Tyrone Ross is a startup advisor, a crypto advisor. He advises millennials. How much crypto was there, by the way, A little handful, not a ton. Surprised, No, I mean, you know, crypto really goes with the youth, and so because it was younger, there was definitely a

crypto element there. But again, most of these advisors are managing regular people's money and crypto isn't a huge part of any portfolio it anyway. He also says he's a voice for the voiceless on his Twitter and I met him. He is a great guy. We talked to him about doing good because I think the idea of these advisors really, I think have this. They really want to help, and I think not just helping people retire with assets and being able to like do the things they want, but

also giving back. And Tyrone recently joined with Exponential ETFs to do investing classes and teaching in Detroit in inner cities to try to get more people into it because, as you know, the income inequality gap a big part of it is because half the country isn't in stocks, and that's driven a lot of the wedge between the

really rich people and those who don't have it. So he talks about that when you break it down into those who are unbanked, underbanked, and and getting too the class structure of it you have, you get into people who have no access to the market at all. So those that own assets over the last ten years, like you said, so now creating awareness around what an e t F is, right, awareness around where when you go into your Sofi account or you have an Acorns account

and you're you're actually putting money to work. This is what you're investing in those small steps basic education. I think now you start to get people exposed, right, you start to educate people, and you start to put them in a position where now they say, okay, this is a whole world. I knew nothing about what are the next steps. I lived it. He's like an activist. Yeah, and you know it's really true. I'm e t s

can be bought for you know, there's no minimum investment. Well, I was just just get your hooks on the market. Good things happen. Literally, we've had multiple people on already talk about technology and how transformative, how e t s are technology play and you think about how easy it is to like do something on your phone. All you need is the awareness. So if somebody like that it's going to a city like Detroit and trying to make

a difference, it's really interesting. Another thing about Tyrone is I find him to be bleeding edge when it comes to fearlessness on social media. He'll he's an extract guy, and he will do He'll tape himself on his iPhone after working out, just giving his thoughts on random things.

It takes a brave soul to do that. He talks about the authenticity that's needed and it is helpful and social media and social media was a big part of this because a lot of younger clients are going to look for you on social media not in traditional forms. You're a little bit like that, especially with the Eagles. Yeah, I mean I tweet my thoughts sometimes, specially at sports, but I don't. I'm just not they're whipping up my phone and like you know, at my house and just

saying like a reaction on something. But I've seen like sports anilists to it, like Stephen A. Smith will do it sometimes and it just seems like that's where things are going. And people like that because it's like unpolished, fast take. Yeah, it's a difficult thing to do, right You You open yourself to a lot of ridicule on social media period when you post anything, let alone being vulnerable.

But I think what I want people to do is understand that talking about the your weaknesses, right, things that you've gone through your experiences. Everyone has a story. Not just want people to tell their story because I think if we do that, they were not so divided, right and and and we can understand what it means to be a black man versus a white woman versus to be someone who comes from affluence but to someone who doesn't. There's a struggle in everybody's story. No one is exempt, right.

We all live life, and life will test you in their certain trials. I've seen him tweet out stuff that gets, you know, exponential more likes then corporate handles that tweet out stuff that you can tell has been approved by thirteen lawyers, and he has a fiftieth of the followers as that other handle. So he's what he's doing works, and it again it's showing your weakness. Being honest, it's hard. We gotta hang with this guy. We should have mon for sure. Um down the road. Who's next next is

Patrick O'Shaughnessy. He is an asset manager quant and he's also got a podcast, invest Like the Best, which is really great, a highly recommended. I was on it once. When I went on it, I got like three followers. Like this guy is has a lot of influence out there. He basically unveiled something called Canvas, which is what we talk about direct indexing. It's a tool where you just sort of flip a few knobs, put your interest in and the advisor is able to give a customized portfolio.

Skip the E t F and just get what you want. You know, you want the SMP minus one or two stocks. We can do that. You want this and this and then the only. The cost will be based on how much active share you have, so they don't charge you for beta only active share beyond that. So it was cutting edge, very easy to follow, and I think this could resonate. You know, I've been skeptical and direct indexing, but this presentation I think made me move the needle for me a little bit so here he is talking

about it. Canvas is an investing platform software that allows advisors to design deeply customized strategies for all of their clients. This is a big trend, this idea of customization. I think technology has only just caught up to the point

that we can actually do this and implement it. So no matter the client's circumstances and preferences, the low basis stock they own, um, the things they care about, the stocks they don't like, the E s G. Considerations they want in the portfolio, all of these things can now be tailored sort of a fingerprint portfolio to each individual, so they can get something from the advisor they can get elsewhere that's better wrapped around their circumstances and preferences.

That sounds great. Why have you been hard on this? Well, that brings us to our next interview. I went back to nature a CI who is an advisor in Missouri. I mean he's got clients. I asked them, here's why A three basis point e t f to gives you the whole market and like another one for fixed income, they take care of all bunch of stuff that you don't realize. I mean you outsource a ton of stuff for four basis points. That is a seriously good value proposition.

So this is trying to replace your whole portfolio. It's not like saying, hey, give us like a little tiny piece like a like a like a fun would be like hey just put two percent in me. This is like, hey, use us instead of all your E t F. So again you're going, yeah, absolutely out. I will say I I like I said, I'm this was a great presentation. I think I heard talk to some people who said for certain clients this will be great, especially once the one the newest stuff, or might be very picky about

what they like or E s G focused. But here's Nate talking about what why he is skeptical to use it for his clients at least right now. The value proposition of E T S is so compelling right now that I do think direct indexine is going to have a difficult time significantly penetrating that market. I think the best use case for direct indexine is E s G. And one of the comments was made on the panel that use ad on today the Battle of the E t F pundance, that direct indexinge will swamp the demand

for E s g e t S. I agree with that. UM, outside of that particular use case, I just wonder direct indexing to me, you're adding active management into the process. You're gonna have tracking error even if it's minor, and so as an isser, do you want to bring that into the cold UM? I think that's a what are

the costs going to be? I don't think we know exactly what the costs are gonna look like, So you have transaction costs inside of the direct in vaccine was gonna be an asset management fee I'm assuming layered on that. And so going back to how compelling a value proposition E t f s are right now, how how big of a tax advantage is direct indexing going to be to overcome the potential for tracking error the additional cost.

I think you are adding complexity into the process because it's something else that has to be explained to the end client. These are all questions that I think need to be answered. And there are questions that I had, Well, there's the bearercase. Yeah, and I talked to UM the O'Shaughnessy folks uh before coming on. They said they had three hundred people sign up for demos on their website. So look, we'll see I think we should do a

whole episode on direct indexing at some point. I think we even having Patrick on and just diving in would be a good idea. You can tell there's a lot of meat here. Totally, We're doing it. Okay. Next uh, Next up, we have around with your recorder looking for people to talk to. Would you would you fund? Next we have Ben Carlson also at Ridholtz. You know this last bury saying passive bubble, YadA YadA. Every quarter there's somebody who says passive bubble and then somebody ends up

reading a rebuttal of why it's maybe not true. Ben was the guy this time. So I just asked Bend about you know a lot of these advisors are using passive and index funds and ETFs um. Do they ever get swayed by these you know, pretty famous hedge fund types calling and saying passive is has problems or it could cause a problem. And I just asked him about that because he wrote the last defense piece, which I highly recommend reading at at Wealth of common sense dot com.

But here here he is talking about why he defends passive right and We get questions from clients on this stuff too, like they see this, it can't ignore it obviously. I mean, we got to look at it like any time there's going to be a crash, there's gonna be a narrative attached to it, and so people want to get like a head of that crash and attach an

are up to it now. But there's always been crashes before index one existed, So so we want to get ahead of those questions and put context around it and try to tell people like, listen, you're you're basically talking about the entire stock market here. The stock market has always been crazy. Index funds aren't gonna make that any crazier than it already was. Right basically saying, look, I mean you own an X funds, you own a bunch of stocks. If you own to active mutual fund, you

almost the same stocks everybody's in these big caps. It's not like the index fund is sound crazy derivative. That's his point, and um, I'm with him. I think it's exactly right. Next next we have Kean I'm going to butcher. His last name Salada, and he is a E. T. Fisher or there a couple of et f fishers here. Why wouldn't there be It's a room full of advisors dream Um. He was there and I talked to him about just being a small issue or they have a

couple of niche products. Um they have maybe uh, I think it was a hundred and ninety million in assets. Just asked him about like trying to sell to these advisors who were tended Lean, black Rock and Vanguard, and he said he was getting some traction from the younger crowd.

For us, it's all about differentiation. So with the limited people that we do have, I mean, we every one of our seven strategies that we have at this point, we're just we're trying to bring something unique to the market or put some unique spin on it because we feel like that's really the only way that you're going to get adoption outside of you know, a two or three basis point index fun um And and it seems to resonate with some of the younger and more up

and coming advisors more so, I would say, um, got the older generation is not as into that sort of thing, but the younger guys, I think I have something to prove what their clients and more of their clients are also younger and wants something different. Wait, what is this guy's on? So key on is reality Shares Reality Shares. One of the tips you might know is that they have a blockchain ETF. They're one of those issuers, but

they're one of the bigger ones. Is Divvy, which is the Reality Shares divs et F and it it tracks dividend swaps. It's a way to play a actual divoting growth exceeding expected divoting growth. So it's a really complicated product. But um, I think that's sort of what he's saying, is that you you know, you can't just put the S and P in and you know, maybe a different order. I think you know that's getting priced down severely. He's trying to innovate, UM and he's going out there and

trying to find younger advisors. And it's interesting that he said that, I thought, because when I think of someone like that out there at a conference, first of all, you gotta hustle. So I commend him for doing that. I am so surprised that we're not more small issuers there, because these are younger, smaller advisors who might take a chance from a smaller issuer that said, Um, this is how you have to try to go forward, but it's very difficult for indiasures. So you're out there hustling, you

with a microphone, hustling around. Who do you see that you hustled over to? Next? Next was the exact opposite a big issuer. Um I didn't see. There was one guy from Vanguard there who was on a panel. I didn't see any black Rock, but there will um. Sue Thompson from State Street Spiders was there and I basically

talked to her about what we've talked about occasionally. We haven't an episode on it, but the fact that some et f issuers are now becoming advisors and compete with their clients, State Street has come out and said we will not never do this, and so I sort of asked Sue about whether that would or could give them an advantage or and or make makes it a little easier for her to walk around the place like this,

knowing that she's just talking to clients and not competitors. Also, when you think about State Street Bank, our parents, they're known for being a custodian to all of these asset managers, and so our partnering with asset managers are our partnership is part of our DNA. Competing against our clients is not. And I think we're gonna more and more get to the place where advisors are going to be valuing that UM.

I was just talking to an advisor the other day who had recently lost a very significant client to an e T F issuer that has a direct business and was not happy about it at all. And you know, it's very difficult if you're an advisor and you're charging a hunder basis points and you've got a large et F issue where that's charging thirty five basis points, you know, where's that gonna What is that going to do to your business? Long terms? Do you have to think about that?

Knives out? Knives out? And the thirty five makes me think it's either Vangard or Swab. Those are the two big ones. And honestly, those are the e T s that a lot of r i as advisors love their cheap beta right and but now everybody has cheap beta. Spider's got a line of cheap Beta. Investco has a lot of cheap Beta. Goldman and JP Morgan are also launching their lines of cheap beta. All these products you

can get basically everything from the seven BIPs. So there are now options and so stay Street sort of saying like, you know, I know you love Vanguard and Schwab, but we're actually not going to compete with you and make that difficult. I haven't seen it maybe hit the flows fully yet. I think Spider's cheap Beta line has taken in cash. Not sure if it's for that reason per se or just the fact that there's cheap offerings and

they have a big salesforce. But this is an interesting concept because throughout this whole conference, as we talked about, the idea was always working on your value proposition, getting your game better, because there are these big firms that can scale and they can drive that price down because it's job and Vanguard charge thirty and that's the that's when you come in cheap, Like if you have like I believe it's ten million dollars, Vanguard will do it

for like five to ten BIPs. I believe it speaks to like where the asset management industry can go there. I mean, there's only so many places that you can go. I mean you might have the scale, but like where are you gonna get some money? This brings us to a bigger issue, which is that everything's consolidating. You know, advisors get a little more fee, right, one percent sounds pretty good to an asset manager. They can't sell anything

over ten, so I get the move over there. Um. I think probably headed for a world where a lot of big asset managers are also advisors, and it's like the airlines, there's a couple of giant ones that do almost everything for you, and then on the fringes you'll have these sort of more smaller specific r A A s that have more local connections or something. Same with asset managers that do more boutique work, alternative work, stuff

you can index. Um. So, I think part of what these guys are doing is trying to trying to make sure that they're providing that value add and that human touch and that experience so they can't be victims of the vanguard effect. Who is your next victim? Next victim and final victim? Was any massa are very own? Yeah, she was on a couple of weeks ago talking multi factor. She was there. She moderated a panel about like macro,

the macro scene. You know, what's the election gonna hold that kind of thing that was more panel you see in most places. I think that was a general one. But of course all these advisors are concerned about the election and this, and I asked her about that. But what really struck me on the interview was had nothing to do with work. Annie used the opportunity to go to Arizona, take a few days off and go on like a field trip around the Grand Canyon and hiking,

and I don't know, it sounded great. I was jealous, and so I asked her about her, uh, you know, her trip, her trip before the conference. So I took a couple of days and did an Annie goes West road trip around Arizona. So I went up to Sedona, I saw the Red Rocks, hiked around there. It's the hundredth anniversary of the Grand Canyon National Park being in

Ation Park, so I went to celebrate the centennial. I hiked a couple of trails into the canyon, and you know, I just saw the sunrise, staying until sunset, I watched the stars come out like I'm never going home. Basically, they had nothing to do with work. Absolutely nothing. Now

on the flip side was my experience. Even though I had fun at the conference, I got there and I on East Coast time, so I woke up at like four in the morning, and when I finally flew back, I couldn't go to sleep until one o'clock in the morning because I had adapted to West coast. So I'm shot right now. But um, Annie, I think she did it right. Took a few days off. She looked fresh and relaxed, and I was a little more like um,

a little more tired and exhausted. But I you know, the conference did give me a little bolt of adrenaline. I really ran on fumes for a while and UM, like I said, UM, I got a lot out of it. And what do you guys to say to Barry Ritholtz see you next year. I've probably seen him before that. I run into Barry in the pantry sometimes, so UM, I would just tell him that he did a great job. I think this is a good event. And I think it's not just the material. It's not just the advice world.

It's it's the vibe. I feel like they're just tapping into the modern vibe of finance. It's not like it was. And these guys are really I think at the tip of that spear of this big, broader change from a more stereotypical Wall Street to a new, more relaxed, um collaborative world with jeans. By the way, what was the highlight of the of the whole conference? You mean, like the parties and stuff so um. Well, the first night

they had a Sunday night football party outside. Now mind you, it's a hundred and ten degrees, so they had these fans blowing water. It was wild, like water fans, that's how hot it was. But everybody sat there and drank

beers and watched the Patriots blow out the Steelers. Then I went out to dinner after that with a lot of the E. T. F nerds who I was on a panel with the next day, probably had a little too much to drink, although I was probably I was embedded a decent hour, but again I got jolted awake at four five am something like that. And then Tuesday night everybody went out because they got this DJ scribble who I'm not up on my DJ's but Josh Brown claims he's amazing, And there was a big party. I

did not go to that. I was shot and I had to get up early the next day to go home. You know, there was a moment in time that you were up to h I mean the nineties, forget about it. I would have been right there. I would have closed that place out. I would still be up. So that you're okay, I gotta I gotta go. Thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else he likes to us, we'd love to hear

from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show, He's at Eric Balcrino's. Trillions is produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesca Levi is the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Bye