Welcome a trilliance. I'm Joel Webber and Eric. Every January, I stay here in New York words really cold, and you get to go to a warm, sunny place called Yeah. I mean, I bear. I never see the sun. I'm always inside, nerding out. It's a whirlwind of an event. So hence my voice. I feel fine, but my voice is going because I was just talking so much, and I'm a little worn out and spent between the panels and the networking and the parties and but yeah, it was great. Um, but there's no sun to be had,
at least for from my experience. I don't feel sorry for you, and but I do feel stright for myself because I've had to hear you talk about this so many times. Listen, next year we should go and set up a booth and just do the show. Why did we do that this year? Yeah, we got a plan ahead. We well do. I think we brought up in like Descenter was just too late. I'm gonna do it. Got a lot of good feedback. A lot of people up and say, oh man, I love the podcast, said you
know it's um, it's come up. I don't know, maybe half a dozen people come up and said that. So that's good. But in addition to not wanting to hear from you, we actually have new people who went to the conference this year and they're going to come on the show and talk to us about what it was like to be a freshman there. Yeah, this might be my tenth year, so I'm probably a little jaded. Well, I mean, the first year I went, I think it
was just me and Chris Condon. Then I went a couple of years, I was the only person there from Bloomberg, and then data started joining the news and this year our index team was there with like maybe ten people, so there was probably twenty Bloomberg people at the event all told. So it's definitely become like Fort Lauderdale Bureau. Yeah, it's actually technically in Hollywood, and as you drive up, there's a Hollywood Boulevard and I'm just like, it's just
not different, totally different. So joining us today on Trillions first time for both Katie Greifeld, who's a reporter with Bloomberg News, as well as Claire Valentine, this time on Trillian Inside Inside et f S Part three. Katie, Claire, Welcome to Trillions. What's your assessment should I actually go there next year? Oh yeah. Even if you don't have time to go to the beach, you can at least look out on the water, so which is sort of
depressing through glass windows. Yeah, yeah, I agree. It's a nice view, but there's a depressing element to it. You guys, get out of outside at all or not much. I did a little bit. I sat on the beach in a lunch. Katie went for a run. I did go for a run. It was at six thirty in the morning though, that's when the five K fund run was held, and uh, you could see the beach. It was just dark and there's celebrity sort of. There was a celebrity, Ryan Hall. Uh. If you don't know, he's big in
my world because I'm a runner. But he he was a former big time runner marathon former big time runner retired now, but you might know him because he ran a sub two oh five marathon, which is which is very fast at the ball some marathon, so that was a big deal. There's some hills there and I think he still holds the half marathon record for the US, so he's a big deal. I didn't know he was going to be there, so that woke me up and James and my team was Jazz. He got a picture
with him. It was like he met Bob Dylan or something. I mean, it was like a major deal for him. I never heard of the guy I run, but I'm not. I'm not in the marathon circuit. But um that's also running. I want to I want to video of that. I think it'll be pretty boring for you, but I'll send you one. Okay, alright, I'll do that for you. Okay. So our stick with Inside ETF is that we give
you a recorder and you go talk to people. Yeah, if I'm talking to somebody and I feel like they say something that's you know, kind of cool, representative of a bigger theme, I'll just get forty seconds from them, and when we can run through the clips, who's first, first up? And I'm guessing you guys will agree with me that active, non transparent or aunts was probably the biggest topic. If there was a theme that was threaded through a lot of this, which we've talked about a
few times on Trillions we have. We did a whole show with Dan McCabe, who's the Presidian uh CEO, which you should go back and listen if you want a primer on what this is, because we think this is a theme for the year, like this is gonna be a huge one. Yeah, all these like fifteen trillion dollars worth of active mutual funds are trying to figure out a way to do the e t F and this is a way to do it without showing their holdings every day. So it's kind of like having their cake
and needed to the question is is their demand. So the first guy we interviewed was Daniel Shapiro from Serule. Now Cerule has done a study that basically found that et F fishers like these things are gonna bomb, which is I'm in that camp pretty much. Some other people think they're going to be successful. But Daniel said he saw some things that make him more optimistic, and so I asked him about that. We gave them until so more than five years out, five years, less than ten billion.
Half of their respondents in pessimistic. Why I think we we ourselves highlighted a number of challenges in the products would face. We thought that the as managers the conflicted and offering their best products into this particular rapper, we thought that they wouldn't want to launch the right products right away. They might start with something smaller, and as we've seen the new filings from Fidelity, from tyrold Price,
it seems that there's a lot of promise. They're willing to let some of their best, some of their largest offerings into the E t F rapper, which makes us more optimistic. What he's basically saying is that we now see the filings coming in for what of these mutual funds funds they're going to actually try to convert into
this new structure. And he was saying that, like he thought, maybe they'd take their mediocre or crappy funds and just try to get something going with them on this, but he found that some of the funds they're going to launch were some of their better funds, not all of them, and that gave him some hope. They're not only are you new to inside E t F, you're new to E t F S cross Asset reporter. Now what do
you what do you make of this a moment? Well, definitely, everyone that I talked to agreed this was the theme of the conference is what everyone's talking about. But I get to talk to anyone but sides people trying to issue these that really agreed they're going to take off. I think there's a lot of skepticism about are these going to gather assets? And talking with Ryan Sullivan from Brown Brother's Hairman, we both agreed people are just kind of talking in circles at this point. We have to
wait until these launch and sort of see what happens. Katie, what do you think, Well, it's interesting to that point that perhaps people won't want to offer their best strategies and an et f rapper. We were talking to UM Greg Friedman at Fidelity and he said that the investors are really rapper agnostic, you know it just they want the best strategy, They want the best return that they can get, you know, the best price. So that was
kind of interesting and to this broader debate. It was interesting. On Greg Friedman's panel UM on Active Non Transparens on Tuesday, there was this sort of spar that broke out between Fidelity and then Doug Jones from the New York Stock Exchange over whether this would herald the death of a mutual fund. But declares point, you know, we've heard from a lot of optimistic issuers, but people are really looking to see whether they hold water. Did the fight have
to get broken up? This is two people in suits like talking, even a little spark. I mean, some of these panels can be very boring people, but this is actually I thought that was one of the better ones, absolutely because they were taking subtle shots at each other. Because they're all offering different rappers and trying to appeal. They were all competitors, and we kept coming back to it. The moderator did step in, but there was a point there where it was just the two of them talking.
The bigger problem is even if you launch your best fund like the Tiro blue Chip, so far it looks like the price is gonna be fifty to sixty basis points um. So that's I guess, a decent deal if you're a mutual fund investor. But for eat F people, I mean they want everything below twenty bits. To me,
that's the single biggest issue. And I guess we'll see in large cape equity is where they're going to launch the first ones, and that seems to be the area that people want active The least active flows tend to be a little stronger and fixed income and an international and emerging markets where there's more opportunity small caps. So um yeah, I know I'm interested, um, just like everybody else. And um, as you know, Todd at Rosen Bluth and I have another big bet, which is how much will
they have at the end of the year. Ten billion is the over under. I have the under, and if I win this time, I'm ordering Saki next. Next up, we have former Congress and Barney Frank. So you do sometimes get some celebrities here, hence Ryan Hall. But Barney Frank wasn't there just to talk like hype people up or just be a celebrity. He's there to Actually he's on the board of a new l g B t q UM index that will be an et F very soon.
So we asked him what he was being in. You know why he was involved with us for many is when I first kind of involved with gay lights in nineteen seventy two, we won the defension. We were fighting against bad things. We've reached a point now where for millions of us to we have in much of the country, we can start going after good things based on a sexuality. That is, we're no longer trying to defend ourselves against bigotry. In most cases, we want now to go forward in
Vanshall legitimate interest in a way that's constructive. And that's and he can't now Before we dig into that, I got a part two to this, which is Billy Bean, who is a former professional baseball player who came out. Billy Bean, No, it's actually saying I asked him. He's like, it's very confusing. I know different. Billy Bean a player he played on the Detroit Tigers, I believe, with Alan trammell Um, and he was he actually had some cool stories about playing with Tony Gwynn and least players I
used to baseball cars of anyway, different topic. He was talking about being a major league baseball player and being in the closet and then coming out and that's part of what got him involved with this as well. And it's a really heartfelt story. Here we go. And I made the big leagues when I was twenty one, and so you don't make the big leagues unless yere a baseball player. And you know, there was no Internet, and and uh, you know, I didn't quite understand my sexual orientation.
And I got married very young and and tried to be everything to everyone. And as I got a little older, and was into big leagues for a little bit. Um, I started to become more self aware and and I met somebody and I left my marriage and and that person died, uh tragically, very young. Um, the night before what was my last season in the big leagues. And instead of talking to my family or my roommate was Brad Osma's who's been a big league manager, played eighteen
years in big leagues. Um, it just seemed like from the information that I had in my life that someone like me didn't belong in baseball. And and I just I just stopped playing and with no explanation for anybody, didn't show up for spring training the next year, heavy right, And so I was not expecting that. Yeah, no, look, this is why I played both of those because there's this, there's the Barney Frank who else has a real story
in this? But when you dig into these small e t F s, there are some real interesting stories and people who really care. So sometimes these small ets get blown off. But even the Whiskey ETF had an interesting story about this guy in Lexington, Kentucky. Um, and I find that's where the passion is. What was Billy's et F connection. So Barney's on that board, so is he, and so is Martina and Evratalova. So this is an
index now, but it should be an ETF soon. It'll be interesting if against traction, because there was one called Pride pr I D but it didn't really take off, although someone pushed back and said, you know, this was UBS trying to sort of like co op this movement. This is from the movement. One thing that I find interesting about that is like probably two people who had no idea about E T F and then all of a sudden they end up in inside et F in Florida, kind of like our guests. Uh, did you guys meet
anybody else like this? I did not, but I think it really speaks to the idea of this field is so crowded with E TF and how are you going to stand out? And I wrote an article about this in some of the ways that people are trying to differentiate themselves, and I think it sort of combines both like E. S G and kind of wanting to do good but also wanted to compete with the big players, and how do you do that you make yourself unique? Katie, how much s G talk was there? There was so
much E s G talk. We've heard so much about this in the past three weeks, and it was it was interesting. You know, everyone says it's here to say, everyone's excited about it, wants to get on board. Well I was gonna say, no, one knows how to define it. And it almost feels like, you know, past the potato because we've asked several people, several issuers, how are you defining this? And they are really relying on third parties at this point. So I'm not I just worried about
the investor. I worry this is like active mutual funds Part two because, like Matt Hogan and the best new ETF pundit SmackDown argued for s USL, which is the I shares E s G, it's I think it might be the largest E s G fund bar none. Guess what's not not in it? Apple, Facebook, Netflix, Amazon, Berkshire, JP Morgan. I mean, these are the leaders of their industries.
It's like a car without an engine, and maybe those stocks will actually fall because of their E s G in the future and this this thing outperforms, But I don't know. Those are some heavy duty companies, You're not there aren't in there and people are buying this and not knowing that. I think they're going to be surprised if they buy it. Know it fine, but I just worry that they're going to be disappointed if it underperforms. Electric cars don't have engines. That's true, there is a
metaphor there. Yeah, maybe that that's a good way to sell it, but I wouldn't buy it. By the way, when I write about this, I get them publicly people that yeah, you're you know what about this and this, But I'll get a lot of messages offline, like and at the conference, I wrote this article about this, and people were like, you're spot on. I can't say anything
to agree with you publicly, but I agree. I think people um are sort of leaning towards this idea of an E S G tilt instead of just a flat out E s G. And people that I talked with said that, you know, because there's a question of how do you define it, you can sort of define it in a way that's like E S G light almost, and that might have more success that if If people are going to use it as a like a five percent allocation on top of their equities, that's fine. That
then it becomes some like a theme. But then are you really cleaning up your portfolio because the rest of your portfolio still owns those companies like ex On and whatnot. So that to me, a lot of the says, I just worry it's being sold, like the five dollar organic avocado. It's being sold, so you feel like you're doing something, but it's really you're kind of getting hosed a little. Well, the question I asked a bunch of people at this conference was whether this E S G enthusiasm is really
a bowl market phenomenon. You know, when everything is rallying, you kind of have the luxury of being able to invest along your values. But when we actually do hit a downturn, if and when you know, are people going to have that luxury of choice? And so far, you know, no one wanted to disagree with the buzzword of the week, but um, the point that Phil McIntosh at NASTACK said was it's going to depend on whether the returns are actually better in E S G. And there's been a
lot of conflicting research on that. So it might rest on that if you believe E s G is a factor that we'll have to find alpha um. By all means you can just drop a little on your portfolio. But if you are looking to clean up your portfolio, those are the people I worry about. Because you're gonna sell your Vanguard five hundred for this, just be careful, know what you're owning. UM. And I think that's a
big issue. And ms c I, the head of mbsc I, came out recently and said if you don't something like, if you don't do this, your you will dramatically underperform. I find that to be very dangerous talk. I just think that's irresponsible to be honest. UM. I think it's just better to sort of like offer caveats here and be honest about the proposition, because you don't want someone to wake up and trail the market by and be like, you know, why did I do this and get angry
about it? Who'd you talk to you next? So, while I'm a skeptic, there's someone I think a little further to the right of me, which is the MAGA guy. There's an et F with the tigger Maga Hal Lambert. It leans towards companies with that donate or have GOP values or donate to GOP. I believe did a great Brillions episode with him before. Yeah, we did a whole
episode with him and he's a really nice guy. He was talking about Larry Fink's Climate letter and uh, he offered some sort of like pushback on that, and here he is like, my biggest problem with the s G is that it's it's all just soft issues, so it's
very relative. There's no real hard evidence on anything, so it's opinionated, and it's being driven by the U N out of out of Europe, and now they're forcing US companies to adopt policies and it's basically policies that they can't get past legislatively by the left, and so they're trying to basically front end that and go to the corporations and force this on them. So if you look at what like Bratt black Rock is doing, Larry Fink, you know they have now come out and said everything
is gonna be sustainable in what they're doing. Well, you know what, what does that due to clients that don't have that same view. And by the way, if you look at black Rock and you look at you know, what they're doing with their own company. You know, black Rock has jets, they have their own private jets and and uh whatever, I'm fine with jets. The other thing they're doing, though, is they're leasing those jets out when
they're not using them. So when you talk about global warming and climate change and you're worried about all that, and you're gonna least jets out to make a few extra thousand dollars to put carbon in the atmosphere, is that really s G friendly or they really SG focused, or they STUF doing it for marketing. Hey, no one wants to say what he said, but there's some truth to that, and there is a lot of hypocrisy and
it needs to be said. And I think you can identify hypocrisy and still be for the movement to fight climate change. Emitting carbon is emitting carbon. I think everybody has to contribute. That's not unfair, is it. No? I mean my take is that even if it is PR, that's sort of better than nothing. It's a movement forward, it's a step forward. And I agree I'm talking talking about I just think the some of the pressure should be punched up right now. I feel like it's all
about how are the people gonna like change? But what about the elite who who just seemed to be the biggest carbon emitter is out there. There's just not that much pressure on them. It's weird. I didn't see one Davos article that really focused on that. How is MAGAT performed MAGAT and not having a good run. It's a fifteen point one percent since launching and smps like thirty three, so it's basically half now MAGGO I think leans towards energy and industrial stock. Yeah, it's a sector tilt away
from a look. Mega to me is is the anti E s G sector wise. You get more energy and industrials and almost no tech. So if tech falls out of BED, I a would say, if you think if you're anti high beta and growth and tech and you think those you know, the fang type names are going to fall out of BED, mag is not a bad play, even if you disagree. It's sort of like an anti tech,
energy industrial heavy kind of ETF. We asked Black Rock about halse comments and it responded that it offsets travel related emissions by retiring carbon credits and also reduced air travel per employee. As of you're in okay, we have some more names on your list. Who's next next is Dan Draper from Investco. And I think another issue was, you know, costed following everybody wants free trading. Fility just
announced fractional shares after announcing free trading. He was talking a little bit about thinking about how asset managers are going to evolve and change as headline expense ratio is faull to almost nothing. Once we have a large platform, can e T s be a source to bring clients new clients onto a platform, and once they're there, can we effectively follow them through their data, you know, and being able to find other revenue sources throughout the platform.
So I think it's interesting concept of potentially moving from assets under management to data under management. So, you know, that's a that's a great line, by the way, and I think what we're going to see is five or six companies. A lot of the assets just flow to these big sort of consolidated giant companies that are everything to everybody, and what they do besides make a little money on the expense ratio is going to be other revenances.
How can you creatively earn some money on all that assets and all the people that are part of the assets. And that's sort of what he's talking about. Yeah. Well, first off, his idea of data under management instead of assets under management. I'm dying to call this draper's dumb idea? Do you am? So I want to get that on the record first, But I think it's really interesting idea and I think it has a lot of merit to it. Um. I My pushback is what does data mean? That's just
such a buzz word. Um. But I do think you know, these companies are going to need to make money somehow, and that could be a pathway forward. I think it's a question of can you use the data, can you gather it, can you clean it? And can you implement it? Yeah. I want to see what the pop up on the experiences, like, hey, we've been scraping your data and we noticed X and it's like, oh, you've been doing what? Yeah? But the low fee, the zero fee in a lot of cases
uh e t F four that we've seen. That was another big topic and we spoke to Rory Tobin at Spider about that and um he said that what they've been doing is cutting costs elsewhere, you know, trying to bring more digital capabilities to portfolio management, and it was it was interesting. He likened it to Ryanair, the European low cost airline, how they may not have seatback pockets, you may not get to your destination on time, but you know, it works. They're Europe's largest low budget airlines.
So he's trying to tap into that wisdom. And for a while they weren't going to have seats, They're going to be standing position. Yeah, I mean, I get his point there, but I also think it's a terrible metaphor because people hate airlines that do that. They hate it, but it's working for Ryan Air. They're profitable. Eric, who who's next next is? You know, we talked about Dan
Draper runs a huge company and their struggles. But then I moderated moderated a panel called the Rebels, which is about the small issuers and India issuers and how they can survive in a era of giants. So here's Andrew Chainin of um Ufo the space ETF. He also was formerly of Hack. He came up with this et F Hack and he got into a lawsuit with his own white label issuer. And I thought Hack was one of the greatest theme launches ever, in fact that I think
it inspired a generation of of theme launch. It wasn't bad. Yeah, So after Hack kind of became a controversy, he launched a new fund called UFO. Long story short, he's going to comment on the Hack controversy, and he's also going to comment on why he prefers to be a small issue, because I thought maybe after that he would just go and sort of join black Rock or or Vanguard or something like that and just you know, take that road. But he's like, he likes to like to be the
small guy. One of the best things I thought that actually came out of the Hack fiasco is there's now a federal rolling showing through the through the courts that actually a white label client does have protections in this industry, and before it was an unknown and we hadn't had
to deal with this issue before. So although there was a lot of questions and possible concerns, if anything, I feel like this is a huge win for the overall ETF industry as well as for white label clients and just talk a little bit about the role of a small issue where it seems so hard from the outside looking in, Um, you know, why not just joined a big firm and live a comfortable life. You're You're right, there's absolutely nothing easy about being a small issue or
and going off on your own. However, it allows you to partner with the partners that you want to work with, allows you to push forward the ideas that you believe in it, and allows you to shape your organization the way you think an organization should be structured. And I think that freedom and allowance gives you the ability to create something truly different. And that's why I'm thrilled to be able to be an independent insut or. Did anybody on that panel said that say that they weren't thrilled
to be an independent initiator? No, but they expressed challenges like when you come out with a product and then black Rock or Spider launch is something very similar for half the cost, that's a bummer, and that product has a better likelihood of getting onto a platform that like a Merrill or ubs has And so sometimes the small guys are just left out of the distribution system and uh, it's a it's a rough road. I feel for them,
and I tend to lean indie. That's why I picked an indie fund for my best new et F pundit to SmackDown Um, I think I did that go well, I didn't win, but I think I made a case, and I got a couple of emails saying, you you made a good point, but did you place in the top three. I don't think so. I think I'm in the I'm in the middle. Usually look this this indie the best pundit SmackDown. I think it really favors moments, an improvisational comedy. The person who one was amazing. I
don't know if FORR. E. T F was the greatest ever. It's TDV. It's like a tech dividen fund. But she had a great moment on stage, and she was very likable, and the presentation is huge, and you know she nailed it. But that said, I'm proud of what I presented because I picked the uranium minor et F and I basically premised that, look, people want to fight climate change, but they don't want to give up their lifestyles, and wind and solar won't cover the difference, so you need something
to fill it in. And as Bill Gates said, this is carbon free, it's scalable, and it's seven So if there's even a little public consensus or embracement of nuclear power, then this thing should shoot up. And I like the fact that it launched after a horrible back test. The sectors down in the past eight years, and so it has a lot of room to run. So I wanted to just be on the record presenting this thing ahead of time, because if it starts to go up, people
gonna go Yeah. Eric was first on that, and if it doesn't, nobody will probably even bother to like say anything. Katie Claire, did you guys meet any India issuers that you were impressed by? Well, I met Andrew, which who had spoken with before, but I got to talk with him some more, and um, really interesting marketing there. I think it just really speaks to how people are trying to stand out. I think he had astronaut ice cream
or something. Yeah, the guy that we just heard cream. Yeah, he had a huge green blow up alien with a UFO shirt on. He wore these huge orange sneakers that were the first ever Nike NASA collaboration, so the sneakers you wear in space, and then he had space ice cream. He went all out. Who's next? Yeah, next up? We got James mortier As who's from GMO. Sometimes they have economists and people like that speak. It's not an E T F kind of conversation. But what he said I
thought was fascinating. He thought the sixty forty portfolio was in trouble, which is like a mainstay of your management. Are the advisors there probably have something like a sixty forty. So I thought this was interesting to hear him challenge that this is going to have a rough road going forward. One of the big challenges I think the people is the sixty forty is simply not going to work the way that people expected to work. And that's a real challenge.
And we are going to end up with a portfolio that is a very long way short of the expectations that people have from their investments. And what are some ways to like an alternative or in your kids you like E M value, Yes, so I think you can do better than the s and right now that that involves owning things like emerging market values stocks which are beaten up and loathed but offer the chance of a
decent equity like return. So I think you can still board a portfolio that makes sense um and will give you the kind of returns you need, but it will look incredibly unconventional, and that's why most people will will balk at it. They just won't be able to stomach the visual perception of what they're doing. Katie, what do you what do you make of the death of sixty forty conversation? You know, it's something that you hear every once in a while, especially when markets are really going
down the toilets. But I haven't heard anyone, you know, give me a really full throated uh case for why it would die. So it was really interesting to hear James's comments. And I think part of it is that remember two um, stocks and bonds pretty much both felt the only thing that worked was cash. That was called the everything down and then everything goes up. If everything starts going up and down sixty forty, there is no more diversification. So what he's saying is look out of that.
And I was at an alternative panel that talked about that too, said maybe you should look for a long short strategy. Something has an alternative stream, so in case sixty, in case both of those start falling, you have something. His big pitch though, was e M value. He thinks emerging markets values at P of ten, and that is a great place to be right now. I'm not saying to use it, But if you are interested, the ticker that would do that is p X at p x H. It's pretty much the only E M value et F
out there. Claire, how are you doing on on all your kers? Who? Here's a question we usually ask, and I'm gonna ask it now. What's your new favorite ticker? Oh? That's a good one. Um. I like some of the cyber ones. I like Hack. That's kind of a fun one. It feels like alphabet soup. I'm still trying to get my head around all of them. Hack is like an all time Yeah, it's a top five easily by by anybody's standards. It's a great one. Eric, Uh, we got
another clip. Yeah. So um. Sometimes you go to these events and you run into actual like founding father types, legends, and you know, unless you know them, you may not even know you're next to somebody. Here's Jay Baker who worked at AMX back in the day, and he was tasked with trying to get more volume and spy because nobody was trading it. It almost failed and the whole industry would never happen. And this is the guy that kind of saves spy. And we had Jay Baker on
our special trillions about the creation actually of spy. Yeah, if you go and google the et F story, it's a great six part series if you want to learn more. But at that point it was in an American Stock Exchange products. State Street wasn't involved. They did get involved with the marketing later and they did a great job, but in the beginning it was moving slowly. So what happened was a senior executive at the American Stock Exchange approached me and Steve Bloom and said, look, spiders moving
a little bit slowly. I went to do institutional marketing. I want you to get a hundred million in the Spider within six months. So we went around to all the different um institutional firms. There was some interest, you know, there was interest to an extent, but it was interest
a little bit of a shrug of the shoulders. So we went to one in particular called Die with Securities, and we answered about two thousand questions that they had about the product, and they ended up basically creating two hundred fifty million dollars worth the spider spiders at forty
five so this is several million shares. And the reason they did it was they found an opportunity, and the opportunity was people wanted to short spider, so they basically created hedge, created two D fifty million, sold short two fifty million, SMP five hundred future, so they were hedge whether the market went up or down five points and loaned out the spider. I didn't ever hear that before. Yeah, it's tells you the early days of ets, they were
for institutions to do trading. They were supposed to be like a better version of the futures contract. Then black Rock or Barclays came along and saw the retail opportunity. But either way, I just like these stories where it's like a Silicon Valley story where nothing's going right, but you just hustle and then you get a couple of breaks and and then boom, you get that tipping point. And this is you know before that for sure, how much hustle was there on the floor of this place.
There's lots of running around, and not just in the actual run. It was saw some people kind of sweaty trying to get to all their meetings. But I think it's cool to you know, being new to the space, it's really neat to be in the same room with people who are here from the beginning, and I think it's also a reminder of how kind of young the
area is and how it's still up and coming. Yeah, it was a great mix of people who you know, were around at the start, you know, when the first ETFs came out, like for example, we spoke to John Jacobs, who was one of the creators of the queues and then you know there's a lot of young people such as clear as myself, people who are very new to the space. And do you have those hustlers there? And we're going to close it out with We're gonna close
with this very unique site called jobs and ETFs. Anybody out there is looking for and by the way, people do come to this without jobs to maybe, like you know, find somebody. You know. There is definitely like networking, and I've seen people find jobs here. So here we have Claude Matrosh, who is one of the people who runs Jobs and et F, and I just asked them a little bit about you know what this site does and you know how many jobs are on there, and it's
it's really a great resource. At the moment, we have over a hundred jobs listed on the website. Um. Most of these jobs comes from companies that want so expand their teams or expand their their their portfolios. Yeah, I mean a hundred jobs and I've gone on there. They're from big companies, small companies. They're in all over the world. Um. You know again, sometimes I feel like it's the nineties
economy and sod T t t F s UM. Again. The revenue growth isn't major because of the price compression, but the assets are flowing here. It's always leading in assets, and so there's a ton of jobs coming across. And what he specializes in is getting these new companies that are coming over like a t row and trying to fit like who from the E T F rold might
come over. So we see this move a lot where the head of capital markets at like say a Spider or a Vanguard will go over to lead like an older mutual fund company that just happened with Tim Coin left Spider to go to t Row and leave that up. And so this is a trend we've seen and he's kind of helps facilitate that. I am shocked that we haven't talked about this before. This seems like a great episode. I know we should have him in Um and his
partner is really cool too. I had a eight dinner with him and had one too many Japanese old fashions. I think they'd be good guests, all right. So the other part of jobs, I guess you could say, is like there are after parties where you get to like, you know, meet people. What kind of afterparties, um, other than you know, just consuming too much. There's the one the conference has by the pool bar, and I think everybody goes there. But then there's like dinners and stuff.
So I went to BBH dinner on the first night, and then I on the second night, I went to an informal one by Ryan Curland organized from Alpha architect which had a lot of fint with there. And that was an a Mexican restaurant Marguerite Deville Aboup, you know, two miles down the road. Both fun. I didn't do a kind of partying, but I enjoyed the cocktail hours by the beach and just I think we should just pick up the Bloomberg New York office moving for a while, Katie.
It was a great scene. Um. Yeah, the hotel party that was great. And I went to one of the parties held by Jane Street. The name of the restaurant escapes me, but one of the beauties of being in Florida in January. Even though I didn't go outside that much, I did feel like it was okay to order an Appall Spirits. You know, it was okay to drink a summer drink that I totally agree. You're and you're in Hollywood, Claire, Katie, thanks for joining us and Drillion. Thanks for listening to
Trillians until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show. He's at Eric Faultiness. You can find Katie at k Griefield k g R E I F E L D and Clear Valentine's at CFB Underscore eighteen. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson and edited by Darrelle Dillard. Francesco Levie is the head of Bloomberg Podcast by