Cooking Up Returns with ETF Master Chefs

I had had a good time, I thought, Um, I was proud that we were able to highlight a part of the industry that is rarely highlighted and for an audience that is more retail and is able to get inside look at how professionals assemble et F portfolios and pick ETFs and think about the market. And you had to kind of a I will credit you for this epiphany. I've long talked about food on the show, as any listener knows. Uh, you were the one that brought it

all together. So, and we had some guests who are amazing and all of those guests are going to join us today. What was your epiphany? Well, we were debating what to do and UM, two things, Uh, one. A lot of our ideas were just despaired. It would require like so much different, like go to the gold Vault and it it was like, man, that's gonna take weeks to pull off for four minute episodes. So one of it was just convenience, you know, let's let's just shoot

it all in one day. But the other thing was, you know, I get it comes back to when I wrote my book on e t F s in I was interviewing institutions, and none of them really knew about e t S. They knew like the top ten most traded one like SPY and i WM. But then I would interview a certain kind of investor called an e t F strategist, and they knew everything. I mean, I could throw the thirty seven tech et F at them

and they would have an opinion on it. And and so for the whole second half of the book, I quote these strategists, and as I talked to them, I just felt that what they were doing was making E t F recipes. Essentially, I almost called the book the e t F Cookbook, and I was gonna put some of their recipes. It went a different direction, but that idea, I guess just sort of lingered in the back of my mind for the years after, and finally it found a home here. So we kind of made it like

a Master Chef TV show. Oh it's like genius okay joining us in this episode that I don't I sense a little sarcasm there, but I'll take it. It was. It was rich with sarcasm, okay. So joining us on this episode we got John Davies, Shane iss Thistle to shar Yadava and Ben Levine this time on Trillions the e t F Master Chef's John Shana to shar Ben, thanks for joining us on on Trillions the podcast this time. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Yeah, welcome, happy to

be here. Oh Gate too. Jar. I want to start with you. Can you describe when you're when we're not using a force metaphor like being a master Chef, how do you describe being an et F strategist. I mean, I would say, you know, um, credit to Eric right, and I'm gonna just blow smoke right in his direction and say that this is the king of all metaphors.

But you know, look, I think what we're trying to do is we're trying to build portfolios for at least an our side, and portfolios that we're building for advisors that they can use to help scale their practice, help build wealth for their households. And so you know, really, if there wasn't something killer metaphor, I mean, maybe it would be you know, kind of like thinking about building blocks,

but that's so hackneyed and so well traveled. I think in the E t F world that I think, you know, no one can see the screens now, but everyone's shaking their heads at me with disdain. So um, you know, I'd say maybe that's probably the closest experience you could

think of. Um, But really, you know, it is about that sort of end product of just what you put out there, what the model looks like, what it's behaving like, ink it's like we've seen over this year, and what it's doing for households, uh and their end results, you know, which we're hoping to build that well for them and do it at a fees with less risk, which is

kind of the big goal that we're looking for. And let me jump in here real quick, because one thing that I discovered when I was covering ETFs, it was about the years into covering them, that was that advisors don't really do a lot of investing. Um, that was something I you know, some do, but a lot of them outsource it. They're going to work on planning the like estate planning, and uh for the relationships and the behavioral coaching. UM, I guess I'll go to John for

that one. Can you talk a little bit about what advisors are doing in that they're going to use your portfolio? What are they doing? Then, since you're doing the investing, it's it's exactly what you said, it's um. You know, they're worrying about the overall client relationships, so that doing taxes, insurance,

state planning, behavioral coaching, um, you know. And and they their expertise isn't really to be markets people or to you know, how to design a portfolio, so that's where they leave that to, you know, subadvisors such as you know bend myself too, sure, Shanna. So I think it's a win win for everyone that the end client gets a better portfolio experience, a better outcome that they're looking to solve for. And um, you know, everyone is happy

in the end. Do they ever come back or they ever look at it and go, hey, man, why did you pick uh, you know XLK instead of v G T or whatever, Like do they ever needle you over your picks? Well, I mean what happens nowadays? You know, the SMP has gone straight up the last ten years, so everyone wants to just know why you didn't do as good as the SMP. But that's a separate conversation. I mean, you know, Shannon myself and I mean, we could spend hours talking about that alone. But they don't

really go too much into the weeds. They just like to look at like how they count as growing and um. You know, sometimes the financial advisor will actually say why did you pick this one ETF This is down whereas the market's up, And then you gotta explain, Okay, you know, when you go to portfolio, it's like a recipe. All the ingredients fit together. Someone was supposed to spice, someone

supposed to be you know, sweet savory. But in collection, and you know the collection, the entire recipe works on the end. So sometimes you just explain, like, Okay, this one ETIF is meant to like be your portfolio dampener. We're supposed to provide protection. Shana, you had kind of the rock star portfolio, so I'm gonna ask you if there's one other portfolio that you most invied other than your own, which one was it? I I like, uh

John Davids portfolios as a matter of fact. It's it's one of those portfolios that complements well some of the stuff we do, which is a little more exotic, a little more as you put rock star ish, those inflation oriented types of portfolios actually are a great heads that we can layer on top and and we do look at a story as products at Spotlight, uh to complement

some of those things we're doing. Because you know, we're a small organization, we can't do everything in house, so we look to people, just like everybody that's here, whether it be John or Ben or Touchar, we are looking to use their expertise is along with our own in house to layer upon and complement depending on our client's needs.

And just talk a little bit about you were you had some clients that were athletes, and everybody is always intrigued about that because we we actually hear about athletes getting ripped off by their advisors pretty frequently, where movie stars getting into bad deals. Everybody remembers made off. Um, what's a conversation with an athlete, like when you're sharing your portfolio or with the relationship manager who shares the portfolio, do they kind of care what the tickers are or

they just sort of trust you. How's it work. It's interesting because I think we understand the risks that a lot of athlete to have in terms of um they have capital, they have assets, and so they are often asked to invest in, you know, relatively risky things as an angel or an a venture capacity. Uh So we're aware of those concerns that they have, and we actually try to present ourselves and uh as a gatekeeper for them.

You know, we look at these core portfolios as a way of you know, having that trust and saying, look, we're not going to sell you anything exotic. Here's a nice core model for you to to begin with the foundation of your assets. And then as things get presented to you, where your gatekeeper, We're gonna do the due diligence for you, We're gonna help you make these decisions.

We're gonna be honest with you and tell you this sounds like a scheme because quite frankly, as a fiduciary and with the expertise that we have me in particular, working in the private fund market, I can look at some fine prints on on a pit deck and tell you right away, like this is not gonna fly for me, asking the right questions, finding out who other backers are. You know, our goal is to present ourselves and to sort of be that trusted gatekeeper for our athlete clients.

And I think that's why they trust us. We're not selling them anything overly exotic. If there's something in particular that they're interested in looking into, we can do that. But more often than not, they get in trouble because they get presented with opportunities and no one's doing the real due diligence for them. They're kind of doing it on their own, and that's where they end up with problems. And not all financial advisors have the capacity to do that.

And we're just lucky and that someone like myself, who has been doing private fundue diligence for the last fifteen years, does have some expertise in that that area and can look at some of the things that they get presented with and say, look, this isn't good for your brand. Maybe it's a fine investment, but maybe it's done aligned with their brand. Or you know, I just don't think this is an appropriate way to to invest your money

right now. And let me tell you all the red flags I found along the way and the do deal just process. Ben, Um, you've been quiet so far. Uh. You had one of the most I think impressive video performances out of all of us. Eric and I both looked fat and shlowby on camera, and you were like, uh, you know, Keto, by the way, can I just address this anybody who's watched this video. I've lost ten pounds since we shot that. Um. But yeah, Ben shut us all up. But Ben, I thought Ben also Ben dove

into the metaphor the hardest. He went all the way. What kind of movie deals have you struck since your your Trillions debut? I'm still a low profile O our podcast numbers and the hundred's not the thousands. Okay, So so Ben, what did you what did you learn from from uh the other guests that we had on and and just the whole experience of of doing the video series with us jes sa, there's more than one type of chef. Uh. To extend the metaphor, Um, you can

look at an ETF portfolio. EI there as a recipe that has combined ingredients, or you can look at as a bento box that has kind of its own individual dishes pulled together and to sort of one cohesive lunchtime meal. I would say that there isn't just a one size

fits all approach to asset allocation. What we have discovered over the years with e t fs is it really is a technological advancement from traditional acid allocation that has been historically done with either mutual funds or with separate accounts, and e t fs just extends that asset allocation exercise in a much more efficient, practical, tax effective manner. And and so the chefs can basically apply their their their style there, their chef making skills and create portfolios UM

in a much more seamless fashion using ETFs. Whereas with with mutual funds that didn't have intry day pricing that didn't have the same kind of transparency that we have with e t f s, you can still cook a meal with them, but it's it's it's different in the sense that that you really just sort of don't have as UM I would say, transparent access to what it is that you're putting together, Like you do with with the E T F structure and like when you're all you guys, when I when I worked with you to

pick the portfolio, we had this prep call, like which one should we choose? And we try to be diverse, so some are a little more aggressive and some are more I think too. Sure you had the most vanilla sixty. But do you guys just walk down the street and then one day you're like, you know what that's the next portfolio? Or like, what where do you get the idea to add to your menu? So to speak? I guess I'll start with Ben and then go to two Shark. Sure.

I mean some of the newer portfolios we've launched have come from our advisors, and typically that's where you see the best product development occur or the best solution development occurs. Is you get requests from advisors, hey can you do this? So we did that with the Global Growth Model that

we profiled on your show. We've done that with the s G. We did that more recently with a downside protection strategy that doesn't look to do tactical asset allocation but instead invest in the new newly launched buffery ETFs that are invested in color option programs. So these are all uh ideas that came from our advisor base, and I think that's where you basically get your best best ideas in terms of what you could be doing differently

and to sharm. You know, black Rock is massive and I'm you know, obviously the biggest asset manager, biggest model portfolio maker. And when you make a shift, I mean I can see it in the flows. I mean I have my my NAV screen and I was like, Okay, they must have done something. It's either you or Meryl. So you know, there's a lot of pressure on you. How many how many people do you have to get approval from before you move out of say us m

V into empty um or something. Yeah, I mean from the portfolio management team M that there is some very heavy debate that goes on. There's a lot of committee uh you know meeting that goes on, and you know it's something that is extremely you know, we can do it in a heartbeat if we have to respond to a market environment, but it's also something that isn't done lightly right, and there's a lot of work that goes

into preparing any kind of trade. You want to think about it and make sure you're sort of ex anti kind of changes in risk, what you're looking for, um in your information ratio, all these kind of wonkish ways of thinking about how you're adjusting your portfolio to make sure the move that you're making is additive, it is really important. And then there's just the basic portfolio hygiene of of rebalancing every quarter. I think that that we

do that that's important as well. And you know, a lot of what we do comes back to you said vanilla, like, you know, pejoratively, but I'll remind you that vanilla is the most popular flavor in the United States, and everyone's had bad vanilla, and you know everyone's had to heat should vanilla in the little gelato like you know, glass

jar thing that you pay eight dollars for. And you know you're trying to impress family with And I try and believe that we're truly in that, you know, And I said I think on the show is like it's a very simple product, but if you can deliver it in a really powerful manner that that resonates. And I think when you look inside our model, you've got things like E. S. G. In there as a stock selection that you've got commodities in there as inflation protection. You know,

we're looking at fallen angels, we're looking at sectors. So it's not your basic sixty forty, you know, just sort of set it and forget it. And we're trading on things like, you know, the worst of COVID or you know, the aftermath of the election last year. So we consider ourselves and pride ourselves and being active managers. And I think the Furey reflects that. Um, even if it is a bit vanilla and I didn't come up with the fantastic analogy of the Bento box. Bend had to have

written that down. Isn't an amazing how easy the food metaphor is, though, Like when it's just like it's just like right there, it's like so easy, how can you this swing? And he just pulled it out and just laid it out there. I'm so not a food person. I just want to jump on some things that Charter said. You know, I think it's really interesting. I'm not sure people really understand some of the thought process that has to go in, especially if you're a larger or a

larger percentage of a fund. Having worked for Fidelity Strategic Advisors, you know, there's there's exemptive relief issues. There's there's just a courtesy that occurs where if you're a large investor and a fund and perhaps you have exempted relief, you give a lot of notice or you try to give a lot of notice to the funds you're invested in, because you understand that if you move into or out of a fund, you are going to affect the price

of that that product. It's not a big a deal as in e T s because ets have the ability to u through the creation redemption process get rid of

the arbitrage related to those individual um inflows outflows. In the mutual fund world, it's a lot harder because if you know you are a large investor and you're gonna move your money, you have to understand the second you do that, unless you do it in a really organized way, over days or months, you are going to move the price of that either upwards or downwards, depending on how your money is going in. And there's a lot of thought gos into that, even at a small firm like

Spotlight UM. You know, I'm a big user of alternative funds, whether they be mutual funds, e T s or you know, we talked about crypto a little bit on my UH little segment. These are products that are don't have a ton of liquidity and don't have a lot of market cap. So even a small firm like Spotlight, you know, last year we had a fairly substantial position and e t F called b T a l UH and even at you know, a small firm like us, we actually did

UH have impact on that funds pricing. We had to work with a market maker at our custodian to help us move out of that so that we were not negatively impacting the price of that product. And you do have to think about those things. It's huge for for for even the smallest or even the largest of sort of provide is it's something that I don't think a

lot of people you know, appreciate that. You know, even all of us, right John and Ben and yourself are trying to make sure that we're having a positive experience in the market as well. And you know, people in the model that are still in the model that I'm you know, staying in the model with how you're trading. You don't want that kind of you know, negative experience that's connected to your UH, to your sort of day

to day operations, and so that's really really important. People think you're just putting poor photos together, but we spend a ton of time thinking about the market impact of what we have on these e t s. And you mentioned the t F. It's beautiful with the creation redemption structure that you can get around a lot of that.

But Eric mentioned earlier as well. You can look at his NAV screen and he could point to our prints right as soon as they hit the tape um and so there's a lot of eyes that are on that as well. Right, and then with a mutual fund, maybe you just have some cash drag and you know it doesn't ever get seen. But with the t F world, it's it's very visible and you have to make sure that you're um, you know, doing no harm, so to speaking. Prints are on the cookie jar exactly. I call it footprints.

And that's why I call Meryl bigfoot. You you there's a sighting every once in a while and you just you you just know it when it's a it's a big footprint. But it's too sure. I will I will say kudos to your Pierre department for acknowledging now when it is you like notice lately when news calls you and says, was this big flow out of such and such, You're like, yeah, it was us, Um, we appreciate at that.

But anyway, UM, one thing I would like to talk about, and SHANEA brought it up, and I'll go to Ben on this. Because you have a lot of products that some of them I've never even heard of. I mean, or I guess I saw once but forgot about. This is very different than a normal, bigger professional institutional investor who tends to stay to the top fifty products. Could just talk about how deep you go in the toolbox and do you do you analyze every new ETF that

comes out on the market. I mean, how much of your job is just keeping your eye on the smaller, less known stuff. So this will be a shameless plug for a Bloomberg, but I couldn't do my job without having my Bloomberg terminal and morning Star analytics available. Bloomberg port is a analogical tool we use that can basically dig behind the holdings of the tfs, whether their equity

or fixed income. We're gonna look at what they Essentially, the systematic risks are associated with the underlying portfolio, and that basically gives us a pretty good idea of not only what the portfolio looks like from a wrist standpoint, but then when you combine that portfolio with other portfolios, which is very again, very handy tool to have something like Port and morning Star around, and you can see how those portfolios get combined together. That means we don't

shy away necessarily from UM. The UH the smaller e t F providers now, I will say or is limited in terms of what it can analyze. And because of the e t F rule, we're now seeing a launch of some very interesting e tfs based on built on investment concepts and built on underlying products, securities or derivatives that you can't necessarily easily track with something like Port and morning Star. For instance, there was an e t F that just got rolled out that is betting on

long negative convexity. In essence, it's a it's a major bear market fixed income product UM that basically UM will do really out and the event that we have a major type of major bearing market type of sell off in the bond market, that's not really something you can track easily import But that said, I mean you just if you kind of have. The reason why e t s are so attractive is because, Um, the rules are laid out there that they're laid out in the prospectives,

they're laid out in the in the firm's documentation. This is what the product is designed to do. You can confirm that with analogical tools for the most part. And so whether it's a huge multibillion dollar fund or if it's a fund that just got launched out of the gate, was with C capital, we'll we'll take a look at it. You know, the reality ben Um and Joel and Eric

is that you know, these super sophisticated products. You know, it's basically the person listening to this podcast is really not going to understand what those products are, you know,

how they can utilize. That's that's why I think they need, you know, strategists or you know, guys like Eric and his team to kind of analyze these et because what I fear is like, you know, and I've been involved with ETFs into late nineties, I remember when I share is you know, long fifttfs in the first day when they went to market, you know, we're getting so down the risk curve in terms of how complicated these products are, leveraged,

super sophisticated. This is why I think you need education and you need people to explain like, okay, a negative convexity fixing coming TF. I mean people in the institutional world that I an't understand that, let alone people you know that are listening to this podcast. So I think we just have to be careful as FIDU sharies, you know, just to make sure that people understand what they're using. UM with some of those more complex products haven't written

prospectives and mandates. Oftentimes we leave them pretty open ended on purpose, we want to have flexibility. We also understand that things are going to happen for example, UM you know often times UM at the very end of the month, just by virtue of when the snapshot has taken, it could look like you would never negative cash because somebody had a redemption and you don't actually have negative cash is just a cash flow in process, but just that's

when the snapshot was taken. So when when we're writing that legal ease and those do in those documents, and we want to be clear and what the intended stated purpose of the product is, whether it be an et F mutual fund closed and fun name your product, but that the language in many of those are are written in such a way as to you know, leave some flexibility and leave some um, you know, cover if you

will when weird things happen in the market. And um, So it's important oftentimes with those more exotic products to make sure you read them. You know, you look at some of these inverse products and people think it's just hey, I'm shorting the spill. No, no, you're not. It's mostly derivative. So there's a lot of leverage that's going on there. The way you're getting that exposure is not they're taking the s um this tighter and a s p y

and just shorting it. That's that's almost never what they're doing. Um And so understanding that and having a professional, as John said, kind of understand that and and be able to tell you like this is probably not a product that's best for your risk profile or or what you're looking to achieve, because there's some inherent risk there that you might not understand. Is really important. John, I want

to we we opened with you. I'm gonna bring up back to you here at the end uh your segment on et F Master Chefs was about your inflation portfolio, and it felt like it was so of the moment when we're when we recorded it, and this was like months ago now that we were all in Brooklyn together and recorded, and I'm just wondering, how do you feel about that portfolio now and how it stood up, and if you wish you had made any changes or if you had made changes to it since. Well, I don't

think the inflat and is like transitory. I don't think you can just kind of turn the inflations tickets on and off, you know, So I still believe in it. You know, there's been trillings of dollars being put into investors hands. He's got the supply chain shortage, you know, so the cost of materials are going up. It'll be interesting to see if it gets to the point where it's negative for stocks and earnings. And there's a little

bit of evidence of that. But you know, if you look here to date, the best performers are any inflation sensitive assets. Could be commodities, it could be cyclicals. I think, you know, my vantage point Joel is like, hey, I believe that there's inflation. But even if you don't, the traditional sixty forty portfolio that everyone on this call has is very heavy on tech and very heavy on duration, so there's a lot of fixed income in there. People going up, you know, the duration curve to try and

extract yield. So anytime you see it and pick up in interest rates, you know that sixty forty portfolio is going to be negatively impacted. So we've always said, just hedge that risk by having ten percent and an inflation sensitive ETF basket. So, um, you know, what I find people doing is putting you know, ten kind of different tickers. That's what we've done. We've optimized it against S and P.

I still think it's relevant. I think we'll be talking about I mean, Joe, we've been talking by inflation for like five years. I think we're gonna be talking about the next five years. So I still definitely believe in the thesis. So guys, you know, we brought crypto up to most of you in the actual interview. You know, we said, is this especially with you John, because it's sometimes sold as an inflation hedge. Um, here we are.

It's a Wednesday, and the SEC has about three or four more days to basically stop a whole line of Bitcoin futures et F from launching. We think they'll probably let him launch. I think Genzer has signaled this is okay. They're under the forty Act, YadA YadA. So let's let's assume they are launched. Come next week, come next month, you've got three or four in the market. Would you guys start using a bitcoin futures et F in your portfolio? I'll start with John, just yes or no? Yes, Shana, no, Ben,

no too, Sarre. I would say no for now, but it could what if I share this was one of those. It's still would to be difference if we were one of those or not. It's getting kind of accomplished with the sixty forty portfolio that you know, well you do have CEO MT in there, right, that's a right, yeah,

you say you cut you cover that with that. You don't actually need it it, okay, you just got to think about what it would function in a portfolio, right, And I think all of us, you know, when we're talking about what we do in a portfolio, like what is the function that you're obviously not just sort of you know, buying it in some n f T s and some memes and just you know, like laughing at whatever it is, right, Like that's not realistic, right, like

the realistic Like and it's very pointed you want to ask you yes or no question, but like clearly, like every one of us would have to analyze, like you know what it would do to a portfolio before you think about it. But crypto is an entirely different mindset of investing. It's it's defy, it's an n f T S. You are basically transacting in what Ralph haul has said, the metaverse, and basically you think of everything from assets

to to what is value within a digital concept. And I had a hard time kind of grasping this until I saw some videos of all things about gaming and basically gamers talking about all the digital assets that they've accumulated. Um, whether it's a sports type of game or whether it's a battlefield type of game. Um, they clearly view what they hold as having value, even if it's not tangible. So I think it's not just investing in bitcoin or ethereum. It's a it's a whole different mindset to the space.

You know, Eric I swear twenty years ago the same things are said about et F I was there Why do you need a country t F. Why do you need to short need TOF It makes no sense. I could just buy you know, the Tierra price actively managed large cap growth from so the same things we said about it to twenty years ago. I was JD you were the one asking us that I share when we were coming to I just want to chime in here since I'm one of the folks here that actually does

invest in crypto. I said no because I just don't believe. I'd rather invest directly, and we are able to do that through our relationship with on invest. Eric and I were on a panel just last week at the Training Shows Chicago where we talked about this at at length. UM My biggest problem with crypto e t F is lack of market cap and UM futures E t F I think has additional issues UH that impact that. But I'm not anti crypto, and I think there's a large

misunderstanding on on. You know, whether it's Bitcoin or ethereum or Ripple or light coin, you pick your fairly well known UM crypto. You know, these are not currencies. Their protocols to send money over the internet, and they all have a different pros and constant there blockchain, so crypto I think has room in a portfolio, especially in the types of portfolios we run. I just don't believe in et F is the way I want to get exposure my clients. If I'm going to invest in them, I'm

going to invest in it directly. Round Robin. Last question. It's a question we ask everyone who comes on the podcast, and now that you've done the video version and now the audio version, we gotta ask Chanel will start with you favorite et F ticker and then the quiet one that is just for to ar is other than your own, just my favorite, my favorite ticker, Like just in general, it's not gonna have to invest in it. I like the w t H the work from Home alright w

f H. Sorry John, Yeah, I still like move. I've said it on you know these I've said on the show, and I think on a on a different podcast I did with Eric. But it's just it's perfect Hall of fame, Hall of fame, big hall of fame um, I mean, and I like I like bots um because we don't hear that often. It's clip. I mean, it's probably pretty much pretty evident what it what it it's designed to focus on. So it's robotics alright too, shar favorite et F ticker that is not I shares non I shows.

So I can't say the Ice shows one. You know, well, if it was I shares, I would say it would be Veggie and imaged to my old boss and John and my friends matt Um. But I would say if it's non. There is a Fidelity Consumer Discretionary t F. I believe that has a particularly hilarious ticker. I think, in my opinion, that's you know what, Okay, First of all, I'll say it because he will. It's f diss f

D I S and I agree. There are a couple accidentally amazing tickers like there's no way Fidelity really meant that. But that's why it adds to the whole value add I think I'm going to actually as my honorable mention, I'm gonna just throw out because not only is it a great ticker, but it's also a great investment and has been recently. My my good friend p Tolls f r d M Freedom that is a fantastic ticker as well, and very descriptive of what it's invested in and and

has done really well lately because China has done poorly. Yeah, we've had perth on. That's that was an epic ticker as well. All right, John Shana too sharp. Ben, thank you all so much for being et F master chefs on Trillions, both video and now audio. Thank you so much, Thank you, thank you great. Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you

like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Weber Show, He's at ARIB Baltunus, and you can find all these new episodes with our e t F master chefs at take. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesco Levie is the head of Bloomberg Podcast by h