A Glimpse Into the Crypto ETF Future

F might here be approved here. Then you also see up in Canada the E three e t f s and the bitcoin ETFs are relentless. Normally a new launch like comes out hard and then like trickles, these things are are right there where they were. And so you can tell there's this breadth and depth and the issue is just really taken over. And so I thought we would go over this with somebody who I consider to

be like three years into the future. It's almost like we are going to get to see what the US might look like in about you know, twenty four to thirty six months. And this is Ophelia Snyder, who's co founder of twenty one shares um over in Europe, you can launch whatever you want. It's like free for all over there. And so she has a lineup of get this, fourteen different crypto et f s. I haven't even heard of three or four of them, So that's how far

ahead of the curve she is. So I just would really like to get her take on how she did it, how it works, the market making, the exchanges, and just what it's like to basically manage this full line of crypto et f s, which is probably what we're going to see from big issues like Fidelity and van X some day. We're also joined by James Safered again of Bloomberg Intelligence, this time on Trillions going full crypto with Ophelia Snyder. Ophelia, James, welkn Trillions for having me. James.

We're not really here for you, We're here for Ophelia, but I want to start with you. Can you set the table a little bit about what's going on in crypto right now? Eric, Eric laid a good a good groundwork here. As you talked about Elon going on SNL or all this doge coin rallying like crazy. Crypto just seems to be just part of the ecosystem. Whether you're on Twitter or in finance, no matter what you do, there's some sort of crypto being spoken about. In my area.

I'm always covering anyone filing new e t F to launch bitcoin or any crypto ETF. There's now four different issuers who have filed what's called a nineteen be four and you don't need to get into the specifics, but essentially it's people filing with an exchange for a rule change to allow a bitcoin et F on US exchanges. Um. So that's what we're watching heavily in the U S. Okay, so Aphilia, welcome to trillions and and look like you're talking to a lot of Americans who who you know,

don't have access to your products. And you know here you are from the future, so so talk to us from the future. And what are we missing out on? So I think when when I think about Europe and crypto ATPs and a t S, um, we've been incredibly lucky. Uh. The all of our products are based about this was market and the Swiss took a completely different approach to crypto regulation, which was right out of the gate. Let's get it defined, let's get a structure in place, let's

tell people what they can and can't do. It's a very well defined box. If you're willing to plan it, you can get a lot of fleeway within that box. And I think we've spent a lot of time talking to both our unregulators and other regulators trying to get them comfortable with this. And it took a very long

time to get this product structure right. Um. We did it at a point in time when there was no infrastructure really, so you had regulatory clarity but no infrastructure, which is a completely different landscape that I think a lot of these US applicants rendering where there is infrastructure,

they just don't have clarity on the regulatory side. Um. So for us, it became an exercise in figuring out understanding what that sandbox we could play in would look like, figuring out how to fit into it really well, and then figuring out how to actually launch a thing that no one had done before that all of the traditional

like et F players, no one would help you. This was no one was willing to actually help you operationalize product, and so we ended up getting a really interesting crash course in like the plumbing of what it takes to make an E t F function. Uh, and that ended up being where we spent most of our time and product developments, the complete opposite of the U S landscape. Could we break this down a little bit so explain, because I think people are interested. If you're starting an

E t F, what do you need? What is the plumbing and just how did you accomplish it? If you break down a need t up to what it actually is, right, it's a box that you put stuff in that has to trade at the same value as the components of what's inside the box. It's really all it is, right, And the closer you get these two things to work together.

The way in which you actually make that happen is a combination of some pretty intense data distribution, some pretty intense like calculations that come around that, and an ability to interact with marketing makers efficiently and then actually get them securities into their hands. Right. Ultimately, that's what you're doing. We take in crypto, we give you a security. We need to do that in such a way that the contents of the box and the box with its contents

in it trade roughly at the same tis. But normally you would go to a stage tree to b N Y and say hey, I would like to set up this box, and they will manage the funds in, the funds out, the data distribution, the fund accounting calculations, all the administration of your fund, all of the legal structuring.

There are companies that do that. There are underwriters, there's a ton of people who do package things to make these products work, and it becomes like the role of NESSEA manager becomes quite different, and that you really come in not to operationalize a product, but to run a strategy. The difference in in crypto is that, so roll back the clock, no one had the technical infrastructure to do

this because you basically have two separate systems. You have securities that need to do stuff and you have crypto that needs to do a different set of things. They're not really well connected in any way, so you actually had to we had to build infrastructure to bridge that. We ended up creating a platform that actually manages all of your subscriptions and redemptions, the ins and outs of

the product. Our relationships with market makers are fund accounting all the way through the custody reconciliations, and it basically plugs into our own platform, and we had to develop a house because at the time no one could serves it. Okay, So I guess it's it's good to jump in, and I guess one thing we start with is just talking about the reasons the SEC has denied all these bitcoin

et f or crypto ETFs in the past. Asket and get your views on them first is one of the They're concerned about NAV calculation and being the market is so segmented on many different exchanges. Um there's no like central authority and just getting an accurate NAV, which from my point of view, we've seen plenty of issues where navs are inaccurate, especially in the fixed income market. Even in the US we saw it during the pandemic. I don't see it as an issue, but it's evident in

the SEC's replies that they're concerned about it. So I guess first, I guess would be about a question about arbitrage and market makers and how your products are working and how you think it will work in the US. So we don't really see any substantial premiumser discains from a market making infrastructure perspective, it's quite straightforward at this point, like we've been running these products for three years. They almost three years they are They trade quite easily, cryptos

very liquid. It has uniqueness in its settlement structure. UM that has certain considerations. Let's just do some really coal stuff that has its own drawbacks, and I think ultimately you don't see a ton of issues in terms of market making and accuracy and in trading and those types of things. The way we've structured our products, we don't do cash curations at all, so we don't really trade. Now.

Now it becomes a rough No one really uses it for anything, either for trading the products actively although we publish I nows and things like that, or for creations reductions, which is not something we do. We actually price everything in Kryptic makes it much more transparent. You look at an entitlement model out of gold people love to talk about big point is, you know the expiration of gold.

Treat it like that, price it that way. It makes a ton of sense UM in the same way you would have like an ounce per you know, ounces per share and a gold ETF like j l D structure that works really well. It's really transparent, and then you sort of get away from some of these pricing issues. UM from having them actually be impactful to the product itself. I think the broader question you're asking is about crypto pricing now, right, it seemed as though the SEC was

really prime to approve it this year. My over under his septem Dave Nadig, who knows a lot, His is in August, because that's exactly six months after Canada, which is we always follow Canada. Reggie Brown, who is more plugged in than either of us, says January anyway, regardless of two Sorry, um, time's flying. Uh. Here's what Gamser said though about bitcoin exchanges. We need greater investor protection here there. We don't have a federal regime overseeing the

crypto exchanges. There's a gap in our system. Now again, it almost seems like if he wants to make all of the crypto exchanges perfect or or as good as say the stock market, it could be a long time. Others say, well, he's just saying that to buy space and time. It's like, all right, look, give me a couple of months here. I'm gonna say that just to pour more cold water than I need. But here's my point. Aren't these the same exp changes that all the issuers

are using and it seems to be working fine. Oh so I have a controversial opinion. I guess um, I am not anti regulation. I'm actually I think it's great ideas. I think as long as we have regulatory clarity, the rest is fine. I don't think crypto as a industry has any problem with meaning. Whatever standard it is people want to have that. I think the problem is no one's ever said the standard. It's a different issue. I

see it in Switzerland right that. The reason our business is able to grow the way it is is because we have a very defined set of roles. We follow them. As long as we follow them, everything is great and there's no risk associated with that. I guess my question is do you feel, as somebody who operates with the exchanges and your market makers have to use them, do you think they need more investor protection or are they okay?

You can have an e t F operating and have them in the ecosystem of the e t F. I think a practical perspective to fine. I don't think you're gonna each exchange is slightly different. They'll have slightly different ways of doing things. I don't think there's anything that's that materially problematically different, I think. But to go back, I think the point, the bigger point is even if there's nothing that needs to be changed, it would be great if there was a bar that everybody could just meet.

And you've met the bar, and I get this almost like a chicken in the egg situation. The U S E. T F and US exchange volume, Like, we are the liquidity capital of the world, and we have the best market makers in the world. Um, there's so much capital going in here. And if these market makers that are in the US and a U S E. T F comes to market, I almost feel like allowing that to happen would clean up anything that's going on. I mean, these market makers are not going to be besting around

or getting pushed around. Uh So it's it's a little bit like I said, it's a little bit of a chick in the egg situation. If you bring these people in here, it's going to clean up the Market's going to tighten up the market, you would say. Where I was saying that a couple of years ago. Now the market is a completely different world. It's way more mature than it was even in so we we actually just in some analysis on this the market is pretty tight cocontested.

Like you actually look at statistically what's happening across a variety of different crypto markets, they all moved together. It's

really tightly grouped. There's nothing odd happening in that. And I think part of the thing that has changed in the past several years in the crypto markets is a lot of those market makers that you're talking about are playing in this pool, either directly as corporates, but you also have a lot of ex traders that came from those shops who have entered with the crypto market, partially because there was money to be made in that arbitrree trade.

And so you now have both quite literally those firms as well as the people who used to run that trading and have that experience entering the space, and you ended up with a much tighter market. I think to some degree, we're there, right. You have these big players playing in the pool, and it's helped tremendously in terms of the maturity of market. Like I run across it a lot, like people I knew in previous lives who are not hopping up in crypto, I think probably true

for all of us. Is not that common anymore. The other big story that's happening this week is the Colonial pipeline ransomware hack. And again I totally understand that the vast majority of people who own bitcoin aren't um criminals. And yet you know, here's the downside of of bitcoin, which is that it can still be used and it's anonymous, or it can be used anonymously, and there's this underworld that will attract regulatory ire when it's used as as ransom And so is there how big of a fear

do you have about regulatories? Got Tory bodies in America actually just never wanting to make let this thing go mainstream as long as it's anonymous. But you know, maybe you take away the anonymity and it might change things. I think anonymity and crypto is sort of a red herring. Nothing about crypto is that anonymous unless you're trading privacy points that there are coins that are designed to do that, and that's a different market. But you're talking about bitcoin

and whether or not bitcoin is anonymous. You can run analytics on chain to figure out where every piece of crypto that you're receiving in a transaction from what it was mine through today you're never gonna be able to do that with the US dollar. I think part of it is just a lack of understanding of how we

could use that structure. And I think if to go back to the question of regulation, I think if you have infrastructure around that, you're not going to actually have a real real issue there because being pseudonymous persons being actually anonymous or right different, and bitcoin especially is pseudonyms, right,

you get a string that is used. But ultimately, if you're going to bring those assets into a like any kind of sat on ramp, and you're trying to get that out of this system and into something else, you're inevitably going to have to clear some form of ky C a m L, and they're going to run what amounts to a background check on your specific piece of curtough from the day it was born until the day it's hitting that account. And you can't really do that in the same way with the U S doll. So

we talked about everyone has their over unders. The Van Neck filing, as I mentioned, is the first one, and we have the The deadline will be November tenth about where the SEC either has to fully approve or fully deny that filing UM. I mentioned there's three others that are going through that process right now. There's like twelve different issuers that are in this in this uh in this race to potentially launch a bitcoin etf UM. So what what if you had to pick a date. I'm

sure you talk to these people. I'm sure they've reached out to you for questions about different things. UM what what over under would you put it out? Do you think we're gonna see one? Or do you think we're gonna see one? I agree with the range broadly. I think I'm slightly to the latter end of that. I think late late Q four is probably more realistic than early Q four, so I don't sometimes November December is probably where I would put it, very very late. I

do think a lot has changed, including Canada's. Canada is a lot close for US than Europe, and I think that physicality actually matters. They have a history of launching e t f s ahead of US in groundbreaking asset classes and they've been doing fine. I mean, they're their premiums are tight, They've seen a lot of action both up and down UM, and now they've got into ether.

There's a multiple ethere e t f S. I also think you now have more context around trading behavior in much more robust markets around like you, corporate actions in crypto like things like forks are ultimately just corporate actions, right. There's not a material different between that and the stock split or that and any kind of spin off. The pretty similar to other stuff that we have that exists in normal and financial infrastructure. I also think you've finally

seen those happening in a more robust trading environment. One of the big questions is within like trading behavior around these things network stability. I think a lot of those questions have been answered as well. So purely like technical stuff, we've actually seen a much more robust cycle. Like we've gone through forks in our products, We've gone through all sorts of different things, and it's never cause an issue.

And you can actually watch the impact of those actions across networks and you're not seeing, you know, substantial issues with network performance. I think that's also quite hopeful. So it's a question that comes up a lot. So um it was it might have been February of March. I was just tooling around on E t F GO, which is like I just I call it the leaderboard, and I sworked by flows, I sworked by performance, and I

did your to date return and did everything. A lot of times i'll screen out other countries or leverage, but I did the whole Enchilada. This is nine thousand and ninety two E t f S. Number one, by far in your date return is one shares Finance b n B E t P. Number two by far is twenty one shares Ripple x r P E t P. And then you've got number five, You've got number seven, you've got number ten. You're basically like you're all over the leaderboard.

And this is out of nine thousand E t f S. So I guess let's just start with your product line and starting I think people get bitcoin and ethereum at this point. You know what is binance? How did that launch come about? B and B is a coin native to the finance system, and great long winded way of saying it basically is sort of like a rewards park inside of one of the largest currency So finance is like the eight underpound guerrilla in terms of trading volumes.

They are massive global. If you trade crypto, chances are you either touch you touch finance and some They are kind of everywhere and offer massive range of crypto services. And one of the things that happened is basically they came out with this token that would allow you to do a number of things within their ecosystem, and they may also built a centralized applications on top of that, and it lets you do a lot of things within

the finance network UM that are quite unique. On the back of the coin based IPO, there was a lot of excitement around the exchange business and I think for the first time people having a real understanding of what the crypto exchange business actually looks like from a monetary perspective UM and Finance is substantially larger UM, and so you ended up with a a structure where this specific token, even though it is absolutely not Finance ectually, it does

represent a participation in their ecosystem, and that was really exciting, and it was substantially undervalued apparently, and so you had a really fascinating just jumped here between these two markets and people got very excited about it. If you couple that with the fact that Finance has rolled out in the past several months a couple of really interesting new projects that expand its reach into things like defied um

it's been doing incredibly well. Uh. That product came about because we have a pretty unique, I think, approach to crypto products, which is that we really wanted to make sure that people have real access two interesting underlying assets we launched. We have a the largest products we in the world for these types of products and do it because ultimately we wanted to bring them into mainstream and

give people access to them in an easy way. Because while I think for people in crypto, binance is pretty common infrastructure, for people who maybe aren't in crypto, signing up the binance maybe quite a reach, and we wanted to find a way to bridge that and allow people to, you know, still get access to the sector. UM. I guess the binance tokens like one simple example to lay it out for somebody who's not familiar, you, everyone has to pay fees when you're trading on an exchange, right,

there's exchange fees. That's how coin base makes all the money. If you use the binance token to pay your fees, the dollar amount or the actual amount you're paying is a little less. It's like an incentive to use the binance coin. That's how it's like one of the things that started out as UM. So just throw that in there, and then I guess my next question is you guys, we we've talked about it. There's a whole bunch will probably get into some of these other products, but it

goes back to the regulatory framework. Like in the US and Canada and many other places, they're allowing bitcoin, they're allowing etheroryum, but like no one else is going further

than that at this point in most other markets. UM there's some index based products, But how did the can you talk you keep mentioning the regulatory friendlick from the Swiss Swiss point of view, but how did it go when you guys were launching all these things other than the if you're going to call them widely accepted bitcoin

and etheroryum. Do you have things like a crypto basket, you have UM tesos, you have all these different bitcoin forks like bitcoin, cash, Cardiano, UM, Stellar x RP polk again, Polka dot um, all of them. Can you just explain how like that conversation went with regulators if at all? Sure, UM, we've been doing this for i mean, relative to tript a long time. The first product we came out with was actually an index, and at the time it was

the only one in the world. Actually, I think I don't know they're there are a couple now in other industries, but none in in this format um. The conversation with regular nes ends up boiling down to a couple of things, which is there's a bunch of stuff on. There are no fly list, which has to do with it's not a security it's not you know, you're not doing bactor

I keo. You know, they have this list of criteria. Basically, if you're able to meet all of those criteria and show them that there is you know, sufficient liquidity, real trading pairs against fiat um and some stability in the network, they are able to get comfortable with it. The interesting stuff comes in when we get away from like a planet vanilla tractor. So we have products that have yield

in them. For example test as being a good example of that, where you can actually have a yield generating component, and that's where we end up having more nuanced conversations when we're trying to introduce new features like that. Otherwise it comes down to network stability, some seasoning metrics, some volume metrics, and some technical ones related to how the specific crypto asset is structured, is that its own chain, is it based on another one? How has it actually

been built? Ends up being a large part of the conversation. Okay, so you sorry you lost me at tasos and that's part of my question here. You've got ethereum and bitcoin and ripple. I get all those, but like days of

Cardono polka dot, what what are those? And how do you decide what you're going to do and what you're not going to do the way we think about product is there are products that we need to have because we as a company have an enormoutheumatic conviction around them, and we'll launch them mos back like even if we've never had institutional client aspects for it. We either are some products we're like, okay, there's a real thesis here. We believe in this. We will bring something like this

market because we think it should exist. Um, there are products that we will we feel maybe less strongly about, but we're willing to launch anyway if there's sufficient demand for them, if people are really interested, Um, we're willing to do that. And we have a really brought produ drane as a result of that, because we do try to be unbiased in that approach. We try to make sure that you know, anything that we think meets the criteria or a product selection perspective, we're going to do that,

especially if we have clients who want it. How are people using your products, how are they putting them in portfolio? Either from a retail perspective or or an institutional one, so we get both, um, a pretty good mix between the two. Actually, for fully, construction is interesting. So it used to be a real challenge to get people to allocate you know, a few basis points here and there too, because it has really nice impacts a statistical perspective on

your portfolio. And it was a lot of that kind of selling and a lot of you know, vision alignment and trying to explain to people what they might actually did. The markets changed a lot. Now you actually see people clients, some arts who are building portfolios of our products, which was the original intent, like run your own index, here's the components and make it what you wanted to do.

Will package them for you because we have ideas on things that are interesting that we think will return well. But also you know, paintment of all the colors of the wind here, there's a ton you can do with the components, and that's how we've envisioned our products, and we actually see clients doing that for the first time, actual institutions saying, Okay, we're going to allocate you know,

some to x raps and bitcoin. We're gonna hold some polka dot, but we're definitely not going to hold you know, this Cardano making this up obviously because they actually have a thesis around us and we're seeing people do that for the first time. So one thing we're talking about here, as I mentioned, there's potentially twelve issuers maybe more that want to launch a bitcoin or crypto et F in the US. And I mean, if you're all launching one bitcoin ETF, I mean there's gonna be a have to

be waste to differentiate. So I guess one, how do you see people differentiating? Obviously it's gonna be fees, maybe branding. Do you think that this this new the whole DeFi regular framework has come about a lot of yield farming coming in in crypto is basically where you can earn yield on your cryptocurrencies. How do you see any of this playing into how different issues are going to differentiate.

Do you have any Obviously you're not going to give away your secret sauce or what you're thinking about it, But I guess I'm just curious about how you're how you're framing this when you guys are having conversations about it. So what I've seen in Europe, interestingly, this is not the same kind of market at all as what you would expect in it traditionally. Yeah, this isn't the cheapest product is going to steal all of the assets like it doesn't. It ends up coming down to expertise, is

what I've seen. Um Our clients rely on us to know what we're doing. These are highly technical products at the end of the day, and in a way that has nothing to do with the TS right. How you store crypto really matter, How you transact in crypto really matters. How you think about that, and it's not just how you set it up the first go around, it's how you maintain it over time. How how are you really going to handle your first poor without it causing massive disruptions?

What does that mean for your products? How are you going to give it in that out to people are not How do you think about this, UM and it ends up coming down to, from what I've seen in the market so far, a lot of emphasis on knowing what you're doing UM and being able to make clients comfortable with the fact that you do know what you're doing in space that ends up being a major differentiator.

Just real quick pivoting to the news about your firm that UM I saw two days ago about Cathy Wood, who we've had on the show a couple of times, UM, and she comes up a lot. She's always in the in the spotlight UM, and I think it's interesting. Kathy Wood is a big fan of crypto. It's not a shocker she joined your board. But how did that come about? UM? I meant Kathy a long time ago UM at an

ETF conference. Uh. She and I got talking about about crypto, about a lot of things you've actually been talking about on this podcast, around what does the space look like, what does the plumbing look like, how do you think about making these products work, how do you think about the impacts of crypto on the future of what financial

infrastructure looks like? All things that I love And she did as well, and we kept in touch and she became an informal advisor to the company when we were really early and trying to figure out but frankly with product market fit and how to really enter the ETS space.

And so it was a really natural fit. There was a lot of a lot of vision alignment, longstanding relationship even prior to this UM and she, you know, became a became a shareholder this week and that's how we ended up with the announcement UM and how she ended up being part of the fabric of this company. Yeah, I'm gonna go on the record right now. She will launch a crypto et F in some shape or form

down the road. I think it will be some kind of a crypto, you know, like active management crypto picker. I think there needs to be some underlying crypto ETS first for her to use. But thoughts active crypto is really interesting, UM active crypto, I mean clearly there's there you can get alpha. I mean if you if you're good at it, you could really win. Oh. I think returns perspective active cryptose amazing. People who know what they're

doing in crypto. It's unreal the kind of return to you can make, especially, I mean it's still a pretty there's a lot of volatility here you can do a lot, especially if you're actively training, if you're if you're doing things, if your thesis driven assets most certainly outperformed, you would need a pretty wide roster. Though, like I think with our products in Europe you might be able to do

something like that. You would need you need a deep bench, therepy need to really be able to capture, and you would need essentially it amounts to regulatory okay, for certainly more than the big point of needs. Uh, And I think it could do very well. Okay, So what about um ultimate active manager and you know Ellen driving the doge coin to the moon? Does that does does that do crypto more harm than good? I think those generally

actually is helpful, which is interesting. I think one of the big problems with crypto's approachability, and we worked really hard, how do you make somebody feel confident investing in space and a combination of you know, the fifty eight thousand dollars sticker price on bitcoin and sort of inherent technical jargon that comes around it is really not friendly. What's

happening right now? We've Ellen with those with a lower price point, with all of the pieces that come with that is, it's providing a lower barrier to entry for people,

and I love that. I think that's ultimately a good thing, whether it as an investment product as well or not, or whether it sticks around, is you know the network and what that ends up looking like in the long term, I am like, yeah, but I think in terms of, you know, the branding around it, the mascot, the language that people are using to describe it, I think it really does make Krypto more approachable, and I think on the net that will end up being possible. Yeah, I'll

share a quick I'll share a quick anecdote. I was actually on a flight uh on on on Saturday, and the two women I sat next to when they came in and sat down and immediately started talking about how they were buying dose coin and which they were buying. More so like I was like, I can't, I can't. This was like what four hours before SNL aired. Yeah, yeah, it was like the worst trade ever that they should

not punch the active crypto etf those two. But just well that to that in though, it like takes me back to like nineteen twenties pre Black Monday crash of like who yeah, exactly if you if you know nothing about this and you're hearing stuff like that, it's like shoeshine, Like,

I'm out. What do you think of that, Ophelia. I think there's a fine line between really hype droven investment that you're talking about and made to bring adoption, and I think, unlike what we saw in seventeen, this time around, it feels like people actually understand what they're doing. So, yeah, it's very retail as market, but it's in a much more stable way with a nice institutional backbone, which I feel much more comfortable with as a market construction. I

think the stuff around us and l is what it is. Okay, last question, um favorite E T F ticker that is not your own? Oh um, that is so hard because I totally don't come from traditionally to get background, I will say, I almost feel like this is the one guest where we should let her pick her own because she's got H O, D L, she's got Abba, she's got moon. I mean, you've got like an embarrassment of riches in your ticker lineup. Do it for one, we

have to do it for all. Yeah, so listen, pick your favorite of your own and then you're non something out of your family. Okay, Um, some of the stuff around like hack I really like, which is sort of that's a good one. Top five, right, that's a top five. And I think your person is always your favorite, so totally is an epic one that is up. There's always your favorite, right, ABBA's mine? I think I like Abba better.

I just want I just get dancing queen stuck on ahead and it's it's that's fine, that's a good day. You got you got keys and moon too, which are also fantastic. Uh we kid, But I'm telling you if these tickers, you could sell these tickers for over a million dollars in the US someday. Honestly, it's when you're early,

you get to do a lot of cool stuff. It's one of the things that I look at with this market, like we launch your bitcoin product in January, and when you do stuff early, there's some disproportionate advantages to that. So Philias neither thanks so much for joining us on Trillions. Thank you for having it's really fun. Thanks for listening to Trillions. Until next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast Spotify or

where where else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show, He's at Eric Pultunas. You can find James at j S E y f F and you can find Aphelia's twenty one shares at twenty one Shares Underscore. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesca Levy is the head of Bloomberg podcast by