Let's not focus on the past, let's move forward, you are making a unilateral decision for two people, which is not the basis of a marriage. That's not how marriage works. No. I'm saying that my feelings of shame are more important than everything I put you through.
That's what I'm doing. And it's so powerful when you say it like that. It's true, though.
So think about that. Think about that. When you say let's not talk about the past. I'm saying that my feelings of shame are more important than everything that you feel. And you don't get to talk about your feelings because mine are more important. Welcome back. Well come back to another episode of till the wheels fall off. Hi, I'm
Matt. I'm Paige.
You're scared there. What was that? Bringing some energy in here, man, we're exhausted.
He pointed at me. pretty tired. I know. I'm tired, too. We say this every time. Why don't you do this? No, we don't.
Yeah, we do. Not anymore. Okay. Well,
we just switched seasons, like within two days. Now. We
were in the snow yesterday. We were in Colorado for a beautiful wedding. Yeah, it was amazing. So amazing. And me and the kids. You were with the bride one day. And so me and the kids got a day to ourselves. Yeah. So I wanted to go see some chipmunks. Adorable. You ever seen chipmunk with his cheeks full of sunflower seeds? Man, that is just joy. So it's gonna be dirty about stuff, man. I can't sit here. Anyway, we found was not chipmunks. The chipmunks
were snowed out. We found four feet of snow in the mountains. So yeah, we're throwing snowballs at each other. And it was it was awesome. But yeah, just a lot of travel and not a lot of sleep. And yeah, it's become a weird day. Yeah. But oh, it was totally eclipse day. Yeah. today. Yeah. If you're hearing this today, it's Monday. Yes, eclipse day. That was crazy. That
was really cool. I actually teared up, which is so weird. I don't know why I teared up, but I did. It was it was like because you don't like nature's like my thing and running outside and all that it just makes me feel like you know, close to God. And it made me tear up and I was like, this is weird. I don't know why I'm crying about this. I
was so not enthusiastic or excited about this. overblowing it. I was like, Whoa, I take it all back. That was way cooler than I thought it was. It was really cool. Like the stars came out and all the lights around the house came on like solar light. Yeah, you're
like, oh my gosh, I could see stars page look. So freaking my dog didn't our dog didn't freak out though. Apparently dogs like weird out over that stuff. And she was fine. But people did do fireworks and that freaked her out a dog just
ate a whole sub sandwich. I don't think she's thinking about much of anything other than her bellies nice and full. A dog got into some food earlier.
She didn't eat that was pizza. But no, apparently. Well, so that backpack he kept a sandwich in his backpack.
And this dog is no bigger than the sub. So I don't know what we're in for later is staring at me over
there about that. Just draw or do paper rock scissors to see who gets that clean up?
Yeah, I'll go with you. We'll do that after the episode. Okay.
All right, let's do some First things first. Well, we got coming up,
we've got our first workshop coming up on June 8. Yes. And McKinney, Texas. Now a full day workshop. This is from nine to four includes lunch, and snacks, snacks, coffee, things
like that. But a full day workshop where you will be working through issues processing with Paige and me and we are going to be having some process groups, we're gonna be talking, we're going to bring some clarity to your situation, this is going to be extremely helpful in healing with other people, you connect with other people that are going through the same thing, we've got an agenda set up, you can check it out on our website@www.tufo.com It's our first one ever. And I think it's going to be
incredible. I would love to be able to do these things on a regular basis. This is the first one we're gonna try it out. And the following day, which is a Sunday, June 9, we're going to have a meetup, completely free meetup, where you can come hang out, visit ask questions, talk to other people. Yeah, it's gonna be really cool. Looking forward to it, park have some coffee and some stuff like that going on. Deep, more details on that to follow. We've already booked this space and everything
set up. And so now we're just waiting on you. So check it out. Love to see you guys there. Is that it for announcements? I think it's all we got? No, we still have a course. Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. The course we have the course. Yeah. If you listen to podcast and you've still got questions like we created a course for that very reason. Oftentimes, you're able to glean some insight from their podcasts, you're able to understand a few things, maybe some new concepts you haven't
thought of. But if you're looking for more clarity, that's what the course is for. And a lot of people ask us, like, is it right for me in this situation or that situation? Like I've already left? I've already left somebody or I don't want to leave or I don't know what to do. What's next? The answer is yes, yes. And yes, it is right for you. It's all about you. Our mission is to Fear, which means to change direction. And it's an acronym validate, educate, empower, recover. That
is our acronym. That's what we're after. That's what the course will deliver. You will never feel like someone understands you more than when you see a page talking about your life, your experiences, and then what to do about it. If you're looking for answers, there are answers in the course, there are exercises, you will have to go it's work. Don't get me wrong, it is not easy. This is this is a lot of work. When I say a lot of work, it's like self work like this is places
you don't want to go. But you have to if you want to get to the other side of it, it's very way through. Yeah, very empowering and will be so much stronger after this. The course is called independently strong. Yeah. And we are not out here trying to ask people to leave marriages.
No, it's all about you just becoming independent in yourself, just to be strong with who you are. No matter where you are on your journey.
At the end of this, you will be able to answer the question for yourself. Am I in the right place in my life right now? And you will know what to do? Yes, you won't have to ask questions or even question yourself, you will know I promise you that. That's what the course is for. You can get 75% off with the code wheelies 75. That's wheelies with an s 75.
Yep. I think that's it.
Okay. All right. All right. So
what are we talking about today? So
resentment and forgiveness. Okay,
so we've had an episode on forgiveness on this before early on. It was like, it was over a year ago, I believe, I think it was last March. And it was more, you know, like, broad. It wasn't talking about what we deal with on a day to day basis with Tufo? No, it's a little bit different. So we're going to dig deeper into this topic, because we've had a lot of questions on it in the community and on tick tock. So let's get started. Okay.
I think that I would love for couples to listen to this episode. Yes, I agree. So I'm gonna approach this from as if I'm talking to two people that are working through it. So someone
in early recovery or in recovery, right, yeah, in active addiction, I don't think
I think even an active addiction, you can you can gain something from it. I think that there's going to be a lot of things here to understand about why these conversations, keep coming up what you can do about it, and how to make this thing better. And do you want to save your marriage? Like, here's how we did it? Yeah. So I think that it's relevant for couples. So I would love for people to be able to listen to this together. So sometimes I'll be speaking sounds like to both, or one or
the other. Just, it's intended for both people pretend there's two people in that couch over there. Okay, essentially. So it started with a question that someone had asked or a video that you posted? No, it was a question someone asked. Okay, what was the question?
Um, her. Her partner was in treatment. And he was saying, let's put the past in the past. That's right. And you know, we did let's just move forward. And she had a problem with that. And I have a problem with that. And you have a problem with that. So what does it look like? Yeah, this
comes up
a lot, a lot. A lot. We see this in like AAA groups, too. Sometimes.
Yeah. Sometimes, but I can say for the ones that I've been part of, there's a lot of healthy recovery. I see this a lot of online forums.
Well, that's what I mean. Yeah, I have never, I haven't been to like your groups. But I mean, like online forums, I've seen it for sure.
I think that a lot of people approach this topic of addiction and the betrayal that takes place in an addicted relationship, whether it's the lying if it's infidelity, it's if it's just the dismissal and invalidation of feelings, and all these things that cause tension, when someone decides they're going to get sober, they, they don't want to look at it, like, listen, that was before. This is now this is the new me. And from this moment forward, I'm going to be different, I'm changing, and we
don't need to go back. We don't need to talk about all this, this crap that happened. That's not helpful. to harp on the past, when we need to move forward, we need to focus on this new life, this new person, this, this new mindset that we need to have, like, let's let's start new. I think for a lot of people, that's how they first can like glean hope from something is they can look forward to a brighter future. And I would say yes, you're
correct. You absolutely can. But you're going about it the wrong way. Yeah. Emotions buried alive, never die. You can't. It's like saying you want to arrive somewhere without ever actually leaving. Like we have to address these things. We have to address these things.
Right. But a lot of these people will say that they have learned this and the program that they're in from their sponsor, from therapy from marriage counselors from treatment centers, and they go in there and they say, the past is the past that
is absolutely false. That has not been my experience. I was being right.
And I think that they are saying that for their own experience. Like they have to learn to forgive themselves, but it does not apply to your partner. Yeah, so
in addiction treatment. Shame is a big topic and it's something that a lot of people They'll feel early on, I feel horribly for the things I've done for the person that I was. But we all know I think, well, NSA all, most people know that that's not a reflection of who I really am and what I really believe those aren't, that doesn't reflect on me and my
values. So it's really hard to look at those actions and acknowledge them, okay, and take accountability for them, it's easier to dismiss them and walk forward. And I encourage people, when I work with them addicts, we're speaking of someone who has a substance abuse problem right now, whether it's drugs or alcohol or whatever, you are not your addiction, I mean, that you are not your addiction. Yeah. Addiction is a disease of the
mind. And under your right mind, you would have not have asked for this, no one signed up for this. We didn't mean to do this, right. It's not as much as it is a choice. It doesn't feel like one. And I'm not doing it to anybody. I'm not trying to hurt anyone. So it's very innocent in that sense that like, I'm not trying to hurt but the behaviors are not okay. Yeah, these things are not okay. And there are consequences for behaviors, you
hurt people badly. And it's hard for people to hold those two things. Two things can be true, right? I could not have meant to hurt someone. And I can also have hurt someone very badly. And I have to take accountability for it, even if I didn't mean to do it. Yeah, that's no different than getting like a DWI, or something, you know, like, the law is not going to say, well, you know, this seems like a good deal, we should just let them all know, they're constantly there
are consequences. And you have to own that. And you have to deal with that. And you have to hold yourself accountable for
that. Like no one's knew the consequences. But when it comes to our own identity, it's really hard for people to to not shift from guilt all the way to shame. Addicts oftentimes lack what I call a guilt filter. So we go from you can bring up something bad that I've done in the past. I don't have any guilt, they just go straight to shame. I am horrible. I am a terrible person. I suck, I'm worthless, I'm meaningless, my I better off just not being here. That's where we often go,
I go there sometimes. Let's talk about I've gone there before, with like my mental illnesses and stuff and being anxious and depressed and not feeling worthy. And my self esteem was shot, I would go there something that somebody brings something up to me, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, it would just be better if I wasn't here. Yeah, it's like the all or nothing thing. I can relate. Absolutely. I know exactly what you're saying.
So what I try to do is to remind people that you are not these actions, you you've done bad things, but you are not a bad person. There's a difference, right? I screwed up versus I am a screw up. Yeah. In the beginning. That's how this framed so that we can move forward through the addiction because without hope, what's the point of any of this? If I can't grow to be a happy, healthy person with vibrant positive relationships in my life? What's
the point? What's the point? So we have to tell people, listen, you don't need to live in the past. That doesn't mean that no one else can see. All right, that doesn't mean that other people can't address these things. At times, it doesn't mean they can't share their feelings about how they've been hurt or harmed. Yeah, it just simply means that you are not these things. And two things can be true at once again, I am not my addiction, but I am responsible for the harm that I
caused in my addiction. And I have to hold space for people in it. So a lot of people twist this right when they're when they're in treatment. And I've heard this more times than I can count. And especially in it happens in therapy too. It sometimes even in 12 Step programs, someone will say, like, like you mentioned, like my therapist, or my my counselor, or whoever said that we don't need to worry about the
past. That's not what they said, that is not your that is a minimization of the concept that we just discussed, which is you are not your addiction, although you have done some things that have hurt other people that you need to make, right? It doesn't mean you just move past things. And I think that from a male perspective, this is common, like this is common male stuff. And what I mean by that is like, take it back to when we're little boys and sports, right?
We go up to the plate, we strike out, we walk back to the dugout crying upset, we're shame, you know, like, I let everyone down. I suck at this. I'm horrible. And we're told, just worry about the next one. Don't worry about that one worry about the next one. Great athletes like Kobe and Jeter and those guys.
They're known for being the greatest of all times and Michael Jordan, because they had a short memory because they could they could forget about a mistake that they made and move past it and continue to be great. They didn't harp on the mistakes. But it's not to say they didn't learn from the mistakes. That's what they don't talk about and sayings like that. Yeah, it's not just forgetting about the mistake. It's you made a mistake. Okay,
that doesn't define you. What can we learn from that mistake? How are we going to be better moving forward? Right. You use those mistakes as
a tool? Yeah, like that episode on failure is, you know,
no such thing as failure. Yeah, exactly. until you just give up. There's no such thing. But I think as like, from a male perspective like this, this permeates male culture, I can just speak as a male. Here's the guy that yeah, we tell people like do just move on Get over it. It's okay. Like worry about the next one. There'll be no, there's plenty of fish in the sea. Like there's a million
variations of this. But I think people miss apply this when it comes to what's happened in your marriage, what's happened in your relationship, when the things that we have done and caused harm? I think that and I'll let you speak for yourself here. But you wanted to move forward to right, you looked forward to marriage one day, yeah. So it's not to say that you guys don't like talk? No,
but it's not fair. But it's not like I can just say, Oh, I'm just gonna forgive and forget, I'm just gonna let go of the things that happened in the past, it doesn't work that way. Because I'm not feeling safe until you start proving to me over and over again, that these behaviors are not going to happen again. And that takes accountability, and it takes action, and it takes a lot of
work. And that's not a punishment. And it's not a requirement, either. But I think that it is a request. And I think that if you want a happy relationship, if you want what we have, you need to do that. That has to be part of it, I have never seen anyone just forget about it, and move on, and find that to be any sort of long term plan for success in a relationship ever, eventually comes back up all the time, emotions buried alive, never die, these things will dig themselves out. Because it's
my life, too. It's not just your life, right? I was a part of this life. Therefore, when you say, let's just put the past behind you, you're telling me that my emotions, my feelings, and my experience doesn't matter? Yeah, I'm saying that my feelings are more important than yours and mine. And then that's just gonna make me feel even lower. Like there's no empathy there. And that's important to have in a relationship, you
have to have empathy. Yes, you have to. So I think kind of to where we started, like this idea that we just move past it. And it gets bastardized this whole idea that we just move past these things, we just forget about them. Let's just Let's just keep chugging, let's not worry about all that stuff. No timeout, we need to take a step back. That's for you. That's not for everyone around you exactly. As, as someone who has struggled from addiction.
Most of my life, like I can tell you like I know why that's important. Because I could have never moved forward if I didn't accept myself in the beginning. Yeah. Like I couldn't accept myself, how was I ever going to allow anyone else to forgive me if I couldn't forgive myself for these things?
Right. And in order for, you have to forgive yourself, and once you forgive yourself, it's easier for you to take accountability for the things you did and how you harm somebody else. Yeah,
like, it's sort of like that thing. Like, you can't hurt me. If I've already said exactly right. You know, yeah, there's a better way to say that.
I know, I know what you're saying. Yeah, for sure. Like, you
can't hurt me with information. I've already volunteered. Yeah, you can't use it against me. So
what about like in early recovery, when they say, okay, don't bring up what we did in the past, because you're just going to trigger me. That's,
listen, your triggers are your responsibility. Great. And here's what I did. I had a healthy recovery group that I would frequent. It was a 12 step group. But outside of that, I also had people in my life that were either sober, and they had been through this before, or they were just growth minded individuals, people that took accountability for their actions, who had made a lot of mistakes is like people in my professional life, and move, move past them. And so I surrounded myself with these
people. And anytime that this stuff would come up, I would reach out, or I would hear stories and going to meetings and things like that, from people who had dealt with this and how they, how they addressed it. The sickest of the relationships that I see personally are those in which someone has just stopped drinking. And they may like they'll sort of like performatively go to an AAA meeting a month, or they'll go to counseling once a month or every other week or something
like that. Like there's no real work being done. Yeah. Think about it. If you wanted to get fit, what happens if you work out or eat right? Once a week? Exactly? Nothing? Nothing? Nothing? No, absolutely not. No, you're
not building any any positive habits or discipline and recovery. Like
we're trying to get shredded? Like, yes, like, yes, you have to it has to be frequent, right? This has to be something that's repeated, almost beat into your head to the point where you're like, Okay, I get it now. Because you have to have enough experiences from others to recall when this happens to you because it will, something will come up. You could say something to me, and I feel shame. I don't get to tell you, you can't feel a certain
way. Yeah. And you're sure that it's not helpful, though. Listen, that there comes a point and we've talked about this, but it is so circumstantial, and the context of it is so specific, but people like to throw this out there like it happens all the time. Let's say so I will celebrate 11 years sober on Saturday, 11 years removed from this thing now I have taken accountability for my actions. I have recovered. I can continue to help other people. I've
changed my behaviors. I am a different person almost unrecognizable. Yeah. If you woke up Saturday morning, and you jumped my ask for something that happened 11 years ago, I would still to this day hold space for that. I would let you know, it's okay that you feel this way, understand why you feel this way. But if you wanted to be upset about it, at some point, it does turn to you. And your response, your healing is your responsibility. Because I have done all the things that we
just mentioned. Yeah, right. Yeah. But that doesn't really happen. But people like to throw it out there, like it's gonna happen. And so it's almost like a can't win. Don't try sort of situation where it's like, oh, man, what's the point? They're just gonna keep bringing it up. And that's not true. That's just not true. It's not been my experience with experience, have anyone else that I've worked with, tell you that right now.
I mean, I have to applaud you. There have been things throughout the years that I have, you know, brought up multiple times, because I had been scarred from it for so long. Because the behavior, the pattern happened for so long, that it took years for you to give me space and still say, you know, I'm, I'm still working on it, you know, I'm still showing behaviors. I'm sorry that I did that back in the day, you know, but you always had that space for me to bring it up to you.
And I appreciate that. Yeah,
day one. I was taught this, I didn't just come up with my own. Again, I was taught this, which is why community is really important that you were allowed to heal on your terms. And on your time, my job was to keep doing the next right thing to be the person that I said that I would be, and let the chips fall as they may, I can't control you. I can't control your feelings or how you're going to feel about anything. And I can't shame you for feeling any way because you
wouldn't be feeling that way. If I had done it in the first place. Yeah. So I took ruthless accountability for that. And I just let you have your space.
Why is it important for my healing process for you to have to acknowledge that you did wrong?
Because it's about accountability, right? It's accountability. And any relationship without accountability is no relationship at all. You have to have accountability for your actions,
but also it provides a safe space for me. Yeah,
you can't feel safe with someone if you're not accountable. Like if I can't say I did this thing, I feel badly that I hurt you what I did was wrong. What can I do to make that right? Make an amends. Essentially, there is no basis for trust, or openness or vulnerability, or any sort of honest communication in the future.
So and that's why it's hard for us to just say, Alright, forget the past. Let's just move on, let's just move forward. Because we can't be trusted that you're going to change your behaviors. Yeah. Until you hold yourself accountable and say, Hey, I'm trying let me You know, I apologize for that. Let me see what I can do better. What can I do better?
Yeah. So let's break it down. Why does someone keep bringing things up? They're looking for reassurance that things are going to be okay. That's what they're doing. Oftentimes, I find that when you're breaking things up, there's a reason for it. Sometimes it's just unresolved, which is, for a lot of these things, it's just unresolved, and we've never really addressed it. And you'll notice a behavior that reminds you of it. And so it triggers it, it brings it back. It's right back to the
forefront. So unresolved trauma is like the first piece of it.
Yeah. And it's okay for me to feel the way I feel. Yes. And it's okay for me to bring it up. And how you react is not on me, because I bring something up. That is that's it's how I feel. Again, it's all about about you guys. If we have to keep our mouths shut on this stuff. Yep. Yeah, it's frustrating.
It's, it has to be I've never been in well, actually, I had a different situation. Yeah. Never been in like, I wasn't in your shoes, obviously. But what people are doing is they're looking for assurance that it's safe, that it's okay, that you can come out of the storm shelter now everything's okay, the tornado is gone. And that's what they're doing. They're essentially just looking for that. And that starts with validation, saying like, I understand why you would feel
that way. Validating is not agreeing with something that you disagree with. It's simply having enough empathy, to be able to put your self in that person's shoes and understand why they would have that emotion, letting them know their emotion is okay. You can have that emotion. That's totally fine.
Yeah, but I think that's a lot of the reason why our marriage has been able to move through all of this is because you did take accountability and held space for me, and I appreciate that.
Well, thank you. But it's, I think it's like the bare minimum bar. Honestly, like I think this should take place in any relationship. But in these types of relationships, I think that you're absolutely doomed. It
is very rare, Matt, to have that acknowledgement.
Shouldn't be, oh, I
know that. But that's just the reality of it. And that's why we're here and that's why we're trying to have this conversation. Are we having all of these conversations is to bring awareness to it?
Yeah. So when your wife is bringing up the past as people often put it It's it's nothing more than her just seeking safety. Just wanting to know that, like, it's the assurance that there is. Won't have you won't hurt me again. That's all they're doing. That's it. Yeah. So if you've never addressed it, why do you think they keep bringing it up?
So do you have a an example of how a partner can bring this up to somebody that's struggling? Like, how can they bring it up and have their partner hear them? Instead of being you know, accusatory, you know,
well, it starts with, okay, so you can say whatever you want, there is no right or wrong way to say it necessarily. You can say you can have the most perfect eloquent words in the world. But if this person is in a position where they don't agree that the past is important, it's pointless. Yeah. So starts with the person will call them the betrayer. Right? Okay. The person that has betrayed the trust, yeah, that's what I meant by that person has betrayed the trust, it starts
with me. So I have to be okay with me. First, I have to be okay with who I am, I have to be okay with the things I've done, that I've hurt people. But that there is hope that you are not this person. You don't have to be this person forever, that you can move forward. And there are still some people to this day, who still tear me apart, like, oh, I don't care who you are today. What you did is unforgivable. I'm like, You're you can have that belief. That's fine. I disagree. But that's
fine. But you have to be okay with that. So that starts with that, or else nothing, nothing else here matters. But when it comes to how do you bring something up from the past that's hurt you, you can simply say, when x happened, I felt
so I feel when this happened, I always screw those up. Yeah,
I feel when you so if I were to come home late, this happened a few times, because I was I was the type of guy that would just make like, send all kinds of crazy texts about, Oh, I gotta stay late at work, or I've got to run an errand to go meet a customer. And I'd be gone for like three or four hours, but I was just buying pills or getting high or getting drunk or just doing whatever. So me running late was a very big deal
in our relationship. And after I got sober, it's not like I could avoid being late forever, it still happened. When I would come home, you would be upset, visibly upset. I would notice it right away. And I'd be like, are you okay? And you would be kind of short about it. And sometimes you would flip out, you would be like, I just, you run late again, and you tell me why you were running late. And I just
don't trust you. And it's like, I have in that moment a decision to make, I can either respond in defense, or I can just let it fly. So once again, it starts with me. I'll just let you talk. And at the end of it, I would say, I understand why you felt that way completely understand. I would feel the same way. Was that hard for you to do? No, it really wasn't? No, when I approached it in, like knowing what was happening. I knew why
you felt that way. And I understood, I would feel the same way because I had empathy that I would feel the same way. Right? They were you? No, no does. She's freaking out. It's okay, though. Yep. But you've gotten better about it now to where you'll say, you're almost frustrated with yourself now where it's like, I don't know why I did it. But I was. I just I was reminded of an old behavior when you were late. You would say it like that. Yeah. And so now we're having a
conversation about it. You're not attacking me for making you feel any sort of way you own the emotion by saying I felt I felt anxious, or I felt upset. I was even mad at myself, when you were 30 minutes late. That's a healthier way to approach it. Yeah. Don't pay if you're going to come at somebody and say, You're responsible for all my feelings. In this person is not in a healthy space and recovery. If it's early on, especially when it's just very new. It's probably going to result in an
argument. Yeah, I would implore the person who's had problems with substance abuse. To do what I said, empathy. It starts with empathy. What would you do? How would you feel? If someone had done the exact same thing to you for many, many years? How would you feel in that moment? Is it reasonable to feel like they are right now? Yes, it is. Okay. So just let them feel that way for a moment. And then you can have a conversation about I don't
defend myself. I have never, in 11 years, I don't think I've ever said, I've, I've not been that person for 11 years. You need to get over it. Have I ever said that?
No. No, I mean, you've Well, you've said some things like, okay, you know, I'm working on it, you'll get frustrated, you will get frustrated with some things that I've said and you're like, Oh, I'm working on it. Just you know, why can't you trust me? And there's one big thing that we've had arguments about that you really were getting frustrated with me over so now you've you've been frustrated as well. Okay.
Yeah. And what she's referring to it's it's not it wasn't like, like drug seeking behavior or anything like that. Yeah, this was a consequence of the way to put this is a It's a relationship that's got a lot of jagged edges. And it's been tough to navigate. Yeah. And I've had to take a step back, but someone very close to me that bad things would happen. I would just keep going back to them. Keep going back and keep going back and like the, there was a pattern there where I'd
get sucked back in. And then, yeah, you know, and so yeah, yeah, you're right. Like, you would bring things up and like, I'm, I'm trying, I'm like, I'm working on it. Like, that's the most I can give you at that point. Yeah, I'm trying. Yeah, you know, but once again, like guilt and shame, right? I can feel badly. But these zones don't define me. I'm not taking it personally to the level that like, I feel bad about myself where I feel like I need to
defend myself. But I think it's important to to acknowledge when you see change, and when you see growth, because you were always really good about that. Yeah. And it made it easier for me to want to be more honest and more forthcoming and more open about everything that I was going through. Because you would say things like, like, when you noticed a good behavior, you would let me know for sure, you would always let me know, like, you would acknowledge it and like praise me for it. And you
didn't have to do that. Like I wasn't owed any of that. But I think it's helpful in rebuilding marriage to do that. Yeah, for sure. You know, it was I think that really helped with some of the resentment that was there. Yeah. But back to this accountability piece, like why is accountability important? If, if you are going to say to somebody, let's not focus on the past, let's move forward, you are making a unilateral decision for two people, which is not the basis of a marriage. That's not
how marriage works? No. I'm saying that my feelings of shame are more important than everything I put you through. Oh, that's what I'm doing. And
it's so powerful. When you say it like that. It's true, though.
So think about that. Think about that. When you say let's not talk about the past, I'm saying that my feelings of shame are more important than everything that you feel. And you don't get to talk about your feelings, because mine are more important. That is basically when you break it down. That's the equation that you're saying is that I am greater than you. My feelings are greater than yours. We are going to focus on what I need versus what you need. We always approached it as
a weak thing. Yeah, like a weaker for sure. But I've always taken a much larger responsibility for getting us to where we are today than you did. Yeah, because I was the betrayer, I was the one that caused these things. I was the one that did this stuff. You know, it's no different than if you're talking about recovering from, like, an affair, or anything else. Like it starts
with openness. And honesty, I think another thing that makes this easier is your actions have to backup with what's coming out of your mouth. Like you have to be able to walk the walk, you can't just say you're going to do things, you can't just talk about how you're going to be more honest, you need to be more honest, you need to go to a meeting, you need to go to therapy on a regular if you do work on this stuff. Yeah. And
things will get better. Because even if you just show up, it will get better just showing up, you are going to pick up information that's going to get better. But I was forthright and open and everything. Like I was like you can ask me any question. You can say anything you need to say you can look at my phone, whatever, whatever it is that you need, I want you to know that you're safe. Once again, you're safe. That helps things not come up as often.
Because you know that like he's been open like, Okay, I think it once again, it kind of puts the ball back into your court about your feelings. Say, Okay, I'm having these feelings now. Even though he's doing the right thing. I have got some stuff to deal with, just like where to fo came from in the first place. But eventually, you get to a point where you've taken enough accountability, like you give them permission to begin to
heal. That's how their recovery starts is when we give them permission through accountability to let them know the tornado has passed. We can come out of the storm shelter. No, yeah, it's okay. Yeah, I'm gonna take accountability for all these things. I'm gonna work through these things. But without that, what's the point of being married? Like, why are you even together? That's, I really want to know, what's the point? What kind of marriage is
that? You're just gonna sit around like, what talk about the weather? Yeah, watch TV pretend like everything's cool when it's not. Nobody wants to be in that kind of relationship. They don't. And they're lying to themselves. If they say that they do. Yeah, for sure. Even if you are even if you were raised as a male and type of environment where you didn't talk about feelings and didn't talk about emotions. Even you have to admit that that sounds
miserable. Yeah. It's my experience is that if you don't address these things, they're going to come back in a different way. Because you're gonna get resentment.
Yeah, and here's the thing, too, is that a lot of us were very supportive towards y'all during active addiction or whatnot. You know, we were there for you trying to hold space for you. We empathize with you. But then when it's our turn, we don't get the same. You know, we don't get the same treatment and it's like, that sucks. Yeah, like again. And it's still all about you once again all the focus is on the addict. Yeah,
yeah. And that's This is our life to like I said earlier, this is our life to you are married. This is not and not either one of your it's interdependent. That's what it's supposed to be. Yeah.
And I think that that I think that addicts a lot of times have problem with empathy. And I don't know the exact science behind all this. But here's the way that it felt to me was that every time I had an uncomfortable emotion, I knew how to make that go away. And I would take a substance it was an anesthetic. It just numbed me, right. But in numbing myself, I was never actually dealing with
anything. So sobriety taught me to process emotions from the beginning, all the way to the end, uninterrupted, it's incredibly difficult to do in the beginning, really, really difficult to do. But if you're having trouble with empathy, here's what I do. I can look at my life experiences at some point. I've been hurt by something, and you're lying. If you say you've never been hurt, never had your feelings hurt.
You never knew what was like to be left out, never got picked on you never got called fat or ugly, or any of these things. You every human walking the planet knows what it's like to be hurt. So you know, it hurts feels like so frame that hurt and your partner's eyes. What does she feel when I did this, she felt the exact same effing way you felt when that sixth grade girl declined you with the
dance, or organs. 10 or your mother disregarded you when you would cry and or when your father would beat you or any of those things. She felt the same way. It's the same way for her. Remember how bad that felt? That's how she feels. In those moments. You can look at someone and say they're not the enemy. They're not doing these things to, to pick on me or to remind me of how sorry I am. They are hurt. And you have to have empathy for that. Yeah, empathy is just putting yourself how are
they feeling in this moment? Let me put myself in their shoes. How would they have felt when I did this? And for some people that's too much to overcome in the beginning. Like it's like, it's so much what do I understand
and you can horrible, you can go listen to our episode on how to communicate with somebody in early recovery, because it is a bit tricky when it comes to that. But I do want people or, you know, addicts, understand don't dismiss your partner's feelings. It's an important part of both of your recovery, to acknowledge the hurt that's been done. Yeah. And
I think from a recovery standpoint, accountability is very, very, very beneficial. For sure, very beneficial, for me time plus pain equals change. And if I'm not, if I'm not in enough pain, I'm not going to change. I have a high pain tolerance, I have to be in a lot of pain, you have to get my attention somehow, for pain is how it works for me, I had to experience enough negative consequence to get my attention to say that something needs to change. Yeah. Accountability is
a great way to do that. And it's a healthy way to do that. Because when I take accountability for things, I have to actually consider what I've done. I have to really, I have to write it out on paper. I have to talk to someone about it. I have to it's right there. I'm looking at it, I can't avoid it. It's right there. You'll see that it's not going to be the end of the world. Yeah, yeah. And you were so graceful, and
your forgiveness of me. And I think that that's a pretty common attribute from a lot of the people that we work with. It's like they want to forgive like they want to move forward. But no one wants to get divorced. No, like, no one wants to just say if at all, like no one wants to do those things. They're put in the position where you leave them no choice. If the price for your marriage is accountability, is that too high of a price to pay? Really?
Yeah. Is that really. And if that's the case, then like, you ain't worth it. Like that is a low price is a very low price for very high payoff is to simply say that I did these things. I'm accountable for these things. And you're allowed to feel however you need to feel about these things. Yeah. My promise to you is that I will change my behaviors, my actions will change in doing the work. It's not complicated. Yeah, not hard. Yeah. And things get better.
Yeah. Yeah. And if you if you are in recovery, we also offer a relationship building to where we can help you navigate together on how to deal with the forgiveness and take accountability and talk with both of us to try to get you through it too. Yeah.
It works best when someone is in a program of some kind, like, we don't offer a substitute for addiction recovery. So if you are inactive addiction, or you're like a month out, like it's, let's give it like 90 days. Yeah, this is just an Yeah, once it's established, it's really, really beneficial. I'm talking about supercharging your growth and recovery. I think that I don't know if there's anyone else doing what we're doing when it
comes to that. Yeah, like a couple that's been through it working others through it like that.
Yep. Yeah. But I wanted to backtrack just a little bit. What does forgiveness look like with somebody in active addiction? Because we get a lot of people in the community who will say I'm so resentful. How do I get you know, how do I Get rid of this resentment. What's the truth on that?
Why would you? Yeah, use it to do something to make a change, right? Like our anger episode last week, if someone's still an act of addiction, you're resentful, like that's a natural reaction to ongoing abuse,
you cannot forgive somebody who is continuously hurting you like over and over again, if the pattern is still happening, if the behaviors are still occurring, you can't forgive that. So that's when you have to make the change within yourself to move forward or figure out how to what you need to do next.
Yeah, like there are different types of people that are attracted to like till the wheels fall off, and there is some group of them that want to want to know the magical answer of how can I be happy when this is still going on? And my answer is that like, that's not what we do here. No, like, we are not going to teach you to gaslight, yourself to tolerate abuse. That's not what I ever do. Yeah. Like there are programs that do that. I think, not naming any
names, but they're out there. I think we all know what they are. Yeah, there's a lot of that that takes place in there. Right. But if you're resentful, you should be yes. That is your as your everything that's your your soul, knowing that you do something different. Get me out of here. I can't take this anymore, right. So
if you're asking that question, and you're like, I don't want to feel this way anymore. There is no magical way to change that. There's no magical thing within your relationship that's going to change that except for change. Yeah, like you have to make a change, you have to make a
change at some point you do. And then what about whenever somebody leaves the situation, and they have a lot of resentment towards their ex, who is still causing some problems, but they're not really in their lives, but maybe they still have to be in their lives because they have children.
Yeah, this is more.
This is more complicated. This is
a bit more complicated. Yes. So you're talking about someone who's removed themselves from that relationship? Yes. And how do they find forgiveness for somebody? Yes. I think that you can, you can frame it however you want. But you have to reframe your anger or reframe your resentment. So if you're out of that environment, now, things are likely getting better
for you in some ways. Now, it might not be easier all the time, right might be harder to pay bills alone, it might be harder to sleep alone, it might be harder not to have the support and raising your child or something like that. But you can look at your life and say, things are much better. Like they're calmer around here. Like I'm not in fight or flight mode all the time. I'm not in survival mode. And you can see that person who's out there
struggling. And I think that that's when you can really look at them and say like they are sick person, like they're sick, like genuinely sick. I'm talking about the disease model, right? This is where the compassion comes in. You can have compassion for someone and understand that in their right mind. They wouldn't choose to do this. They're showing me sick. But you don't have to be around in the line of fire for right.
And also forgiveness is not for the other person forgiveness. Forgiveness is for yourself. Yeah, you're
not condoning anything.
No, no, you're not. You're not letting go of your values or your boundaries or condoning you're not doing any of that when you forgive somebody, when you're forgiving it is you're just letting go of that anger and you're not allowing it to affect you anymore,
man. Like there. There's a way to frame this. And it's like, it's it's tricky, because there's, there's absolute validity to like not everything deserves forgiveness. Like there's, that's valid. I agree. Completely agree with that. Like, I don't encourage everyone like you just need to forgive. Like, that's not that's not to have that mentality. It's things have changed for
me, right? Well, you just said this is something I never believed.
Okay, well, maybe I did remember the whole stray cat thing. resentments like stray cats they go when you stop feeding them. Yes.
I still believe that. Well, I believe that too, but not for everything.
No, there's some things where like, if you're encouraging, just forgive, okay, so why are we forgiving? Right, so for forgiving this person so we can move forward together? That's not the right reason to forgive. Right? That's not I was able to find forgiveness in some really, really tough situations. Only when I was able to see how those experiences benefited me in some way. Like they made me stronger. And for that, I was grateful. So in some ways I could forgive but a lot of ways
never forgive the actions. Like that's not okay. It wasn't okay to do. Yeah, not okay. Yeah. Like, what are your thoughts on it?
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think that you forgive for yourself, but I like not everything is forgivable. It should be a different term. I feel like that term has been or that word has been like, watered down or something. I don't know. People misunderstand. I
think that people, they confuse forgiveness with reconciliation. Yeah,
exactly. And that's our first episode discussing. So
saying, like, I forgive you is the same as saying like, It's okay. Come on back. That's not true.
That's not true. No, no. But um, and some people might say, well, when are you going to forgive me? You know, why can't you just forgive me? It's like, well, what is forgive giveness mean to you, to me, it sounds like you want me to condone your bad behavior. You want a free pass everyone a free pass, or you just want to forget the past and move on and not take any responsibility.
How did you forgive me?
How did I forgive you you? It took time with you showing me your different behaviors. And with you having open conversations with me, and you taking accountability and responsibility, and that's how I forgave you. There will be people on the internet, though that says that I don't forgive that I haven't forgiven you that I have a lot of resentment towards you. And I just laugh when I see that. Let me just say that because I have no resentment towards you.
Yeah, I think forgiveness for me anyway, it's possible when you can look at your life and say, like, the benefits of now outweigh the costs? Absolutely. But it has to, it has to match up. But that won't be the case for every situation in every scenario, you know? Yeah. Like there'll be some things that are just unforgivable. Like you've abused the child. Unforgivable. Yeah, unforgivable. How could you ever forgive that? Yeah, you don't. But like, I've I've known people
that have been through that. And in some ways, they were able to forgive the action, but not the abuser themselves. Or sorry, was it the other way around? No, no, you
forgive the? No. Yeah, it was the other way around. Action
abuser, but not the action. Yeah, that's what you have to separate. That's what it was, like, not they can understand that person. extremely sick. Yes. Beyond effed up, having God knows what they went through that put them in a position where they thought that was a good idea. Yeah. And they can say I can forgive like that. But the action? Absolutely not. And never Yeah. And like, Apology accepted access to not right,
but I'm not going to hold on to that resentment forever. But there will always be a piece in you, I think, you know, that's gonna be
unhealed, like for you, is there a piece of you that still unhealed anything under the answer this question, but still unhealed from some of the things that took place? I
think so. Because that was part of the wiring of my brain, you know, the things that we went through, that's part of the there are parts that are always going to be there. But the good outweighs that part now,
right? So it's like, you can look at it and say, Okay, on the whole, now, I have more positive experiences than the negative. So then it becomes the norm that it's more of a positive. Like when you think about like, the the color of that emotion in your mind is no longer red. Yeah, there's no blue or green or something more pleasant for sure. It's not so bad anymore. But in the beginning, how could it not be bad? If you're still in it? How
could it not be bad? Yeah. And I would challenge people to do something with that emotion, other than stew in it, sit in it and hope that it fixes itself? Yeah. Because it probably won't. No, they won't change has to be made. Yeah. And there is something to be said about, like, not saying anything at all, not speaking up, and just pretending like it doesn't exist is in some way condoning the behavior. A lot of people do that to a lot of spouses don't know what to do about this.
Like, what do I do? Like he doesn't listen to me? He's just shut up about it. No, no, but I think that actions speak louder than words. Yeah. If you're that unhappy, then don't tolerate it.
Right. And it takes time. Yeah,
it does. It's a process like Believe me, it is a process. Oh, yeah.
But I did want to switch just a second to, um, forgiving of the spouses of myself, like the things that I did. Yeah. And I think a lot of our listeners are going to want to understand this part, because a lot of they don't talk about that we have guilt as well. And their shame that goes along with some of the things that we
did. Do you mean, like for how did i How was I so dumb to allow this to happen in a way, but then what about are some of the things that you may have said to me or done to me, maybe some of the
things that I would have, that I had said to you, or the way that I acted in survival mode, or for minimising things, you know, like, there's a lot of guilt that would put, putting the kids in that, yeah, and then allowing it to happen for a while. I did have to forgive myself for that. Even in other situations, you know, allowing access to me when I knew that I was being harmed. And then I had to forgive myself for allowing
that. So, but the problem the thing is, with these situations, too, is that when you're in it, you don't really know, you know, you don't really know how bad it is. You don't know that you are not living by your values, but I had to forgive myself for not living by my values.
And timeframe wise. What did that look like? Oh,
this just comes off in layers. It's not a quick thing. Here's, here's because there's some things that you don't even see that you did until years later, just like you Yeah, You know, I wasn't the best mom, for the first couple years of my kids lives because I was in like
survival mode. And I wasn't I allowed that was me sober, that was you sober and that I allowed my, you know, anxiety and depression and mental health and all that stuff to take over and my overthinking and all of that, to where I wasn't even present with my children, because I wasn't feeling safe. And that was something I had to forgive myself for.
Yeah, that's a long road. That's a long road. This is all a long road. This is all Yeah, it doesn't happen
quickly. But it's okay. I mean, I know that some people need want to learn how to forgive themselves, if they leave. Some people need to learn how to forgive themselves for staying too long, you know, forgiving themselves raising their children, you know, for years and years in the toxicity that you know, could be harmful to them. And then forgiving yourselves for losing yourself.
Like I have to die to forgive myself for that, for losing my my identity for becoming for being isolated all the time.
But it's not so different than what I had to go through to in the end. No,
it's not like my life was not early, I didn't have the normal 20 year old life like you weren't the kind of person who went out to parties and bars and stuff like that. We stayed home, they were hermit crabs, we were we were hermits. And I had to forgive myself for not living my life based on my values.
Yeah, man. It's tough journey for both people. And once again, this, which is why I think the absurdity of the comment, we don't need to talk about the past. It's just blows my mind. Yeah. Everyone who's been around has been affected in some way. And they're not shaming you by saying that they they were hurt by it. You're a big boy. Deal with it. Suck it up. You can handle it. It's not the worst thing in the world to take some accountability. Yeah. I'm going to finish it off. If
you're cool. I've wrote something out here. Kind of like a synopsis. Because we don't read whenever we do episodes, we just kind of talk let this thing flow organically. Yes. But I want to make sure we got all of our points here. I'll just read this real quick. And this is the basis of this is I think, what I've what I've seen what happened in our marriages. I think more than anything, like you just want someone to get it like you need to know how much you've hurt me. You need to
know. And it's not so I can like beat you up. It's because it's so serious. Like I need to know that you're going to do something about it, or I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. That's the seriousness of it. That's how bad it hurts. It's like one of those kinds of hurts. So, one big reason couples struggle after one partner betrays the others trust due to addiction is that the addicted partner often doesn't fully grasp how much they've heard their partner.
understanding and empathy are key to healing the hurt caused by broken trust. When addiction damages the trust and relationship, it feels like a punch in the gut for the betrayed partner. Initially, all they can think about is feeling safe again. At first, it seems crazy to even consider giving the addicted partner another
chance. But over time, if the addicted partner shows they're truly sorry, committed to making things right, the betrayed partner might start thinking about giving things another shot. But before that can happen. The betrayed partner needs to feel like the addicted partner truly gets how much they've hurt them, and genuinely regrets it. Anything less makes the betrayed partner wonder if their partner really cares or
even wants to care. Early on, it's crucial that both partners really want to understand each other and work on getting better emotionally. While there are no guarantees certain signs indicate progress toward healing. So why someone keeps bringing up the past why the hurt person keeps bringing up the past until the hurt partner feels like the addicted partner truly understands how much they've been hurt, they'll keep bringing it up. Many addicted partners see this as a way to
help them. Many addicted partners see this as a way to make them feel bad. But really, the hurt partner just wants to heal and feel close again. If the addicted partner admits they've been selfish and messed up early on, the hurt partner starts to feel safer and begins to heal this again. This is like you give them permission to start to heal. When they see that you're serious about it. It's not It's nothing. It's no more complicated than that. Yeah, it's just that yeah, I
understand. I feel badly that I've hurt you. I see where I've hurt you. I want to make things right. That gives you the cue to say okay, we can move forward. Yeah, it doesn't start until you do that though. Right. So. So yeah, this is a paradox because the sadness this grief this horrible conversation or series of conversations, actually kickstart the healing process,
believe it or not. So if the addicted partner stay stubborn and doesn't take responsibility for their actions, the hurt partner feel stuck and cannot imagine a healthy relationship. It's scary if their partner doesn't seem to care about their pain, or won't talk about their how their actions hurt them. After being hurt, the hurt partner doesn't feel like they matter to their partner anymore. Only by truly understanding each other's feelings can they start
to rebuild the connection. And so often addicted partners brush off their partners concerns or say they don't want to talk about it anymore. Even if they try to take responsibility, their unwillingness to face the reality of what they've done, leaves their partner feeling stuck, unimportant and unloved. In these situations, the addicted partner is saying their own discomfort matters more than their partner's pain. That's what's really is being said, Yeah, healing and making things
worse. Healing and making things right are possible. But it's important for the data partner to acknowledge the seriousness of what they've done. If you're the addicted partner, listen to your partner and be ready for a long journey of healing. Your effort to understanding will go a long way in rebuilding trust. I've seen more times I can count people that have actually worked through like the 12 steps have
this built into them. Yeah, they have a ninth and 10th step where we make them make a list of people that you've harmed, or sorry, an eighth and ninth step where you make a list of people you've harmed, and then you make amends to them. It's, it's what I did was wrong. I feel bad that I've hurt you. What can I do to make that right? Yeah. And the last part, what can I do to make that right, that is a verb, an action phrase. That is not to say, sorry, I don't even let
people say sorry. Yeah. I mean, it might come out because it's Oh, yeah. Because yeah, I feel badly what I've done. I feel I feel badly that I've hurt you what I did was wrong. What can I do to
make that right, and amends happened throughout your life? There are different types
of amends. Right. So there's like financial amends, like, yeah, say that I've stolen money from someone. Yeah. Financial amends would be like, Okay, I understand all that. But you owe me 500 bucks. Like, that's how you can start to make things right. Like you got, oh, 500 bucks. I'll pay 500 bucks. Yeah. Sometimes they're emotional. And it's a lot of pain, like you're lying, has left me unable to trust anyone, even myself. Okay, so I can't
fix that today. No, I can't fix that with an apology or any words, that's going to be actions over years, right? That's going to be me doing the right thing over a very long period of time. And then it's at some point that once again, the balls in your court, you'll have to decide whether or not untrustworthy, yes, you'll have to say, Okay, well, he's been trustworthy, I can see that. I appreciate that. Now, it's within me. Yeah, I have to allow
myself to do that. Right. You know, and then there's living amends, which is like some people don't, you don't have the opportunity to make amends with either they passed away. They don't ever want to talk to you again. And for those types of people, we truly just do the next right thing at all times, like integrity is doing the right thing when no one's watching, right. And that's sort of what we're doing here. Yeah, it's like just making living
amends to people. But a lot I've seen this so many times is where there are men that just say, I'm just gonna make a living amends. That's just what I'm gonna do. They decide what the amends look like for everyone around them by just doing the right thing. That's another way I was trying. I know. Well, but that's not how this works. Yeah, that's just not how it works. It's people listen to them. Yeah, there might be an actual action that
they would like to see. There are so many wheelies that have not gotten their day in court, when it comes to this. Someone who has just quit drinking and gone dry. And they'll just they will decide, here's what I've done wrong. In my eyes, here's what I'm going to do to change it moving forward in my eyes without ever bringing the other person into consideration and asking them what would you need to see from me to feel safe again? What would you need to see for me to trust me again?
What can I do? And the answer is in the beginning, like I don't even know Yeah, but definitely keep asking but even
bringing that up is a huge like we can we forgive me I'm not forgive but we like we're really open to things. Yeah, you know, just talk to us want to make things work. Yes. Be vulnerable, open, talk to us. And it'll it'll help the process go by easier for you. But listen,
like, we don't get to decide how other people move on and recover. No, it's not my decision to make was I'm the one who offended I'm the one who did the harm. You get to decide how and when you recover, right? But at some point, it becomes your responsibility. If I'm doing everything and I think that's where people get things twisted a lot is because they want to be like well, am I just gonna get killed forever on this? I don't know maybe but probably not. My experience has been that no,
that's not the case. Once they have enough good experiences outweigh the bad that's when forgiveness really happens.
Yeah, and they still might bring it up more than once and you need to be prepared for that and like so be it
Soviet you are not your addiction. You are not a horrible person might done bad things that you need to make right on. There you go. That's it. Yeah. So drop it with the poor me. Oh, no. Have you beat me up? Man? That's not what people are trying to do. You've hurt them. Yeah, right, have empathy and compassion for the people that you've hurt and make these things right. You're never going anywhere, not just in your
marriage. But in life. If you cannot take accountability, you know, how many books are written about accountability and applied to business, like the professional world, like it is crucial to organizations, you know, an organization in the United States has the most accountability built into it. The military, it is all about accountability. It's all about accountability. If you don't, if you have not done your role, if you have not done your job, you
are out. Yeah, sometimes you can throw your ass in jail for it. Let's take that same, even even a percentage of it into our relationships and things get better. But in recovery is so needed, man, you have to give people the permission to begin to heal. And that starts with, you have to get it. If you don't get it if you don't see how bad you've hurt someone. If you've never even considered how they feel about it and your ideas. Just we're just going to move
forward and move on. Man. It's going to be a rough road is not going to get better. Anything else?
No think that's solid?
Okay. All right. Well, that's all we've got here. Hope that was helpful. Yeah, that was our experience with it. Yeah. Have you forgiven me? Angry? Tiktok. Lady. I've forgiven you. Yeah. Yeah. After Tiktok says you still mad mad bro. They're dumb. It's funny, because we have to go visit, like subjects and topics a lot that we've long since healed from Yeah. So we have to live them through other people's experiences and stories. So a lot of times when there's a video, it's a reaction
to someone's story. So it's like, Ooh, yeah, I have feelings on this. But that's not necessarily a reflection of your current
my current state? No, it's just that I've been there before. I know what you're feeling. I'm putting myself in other people's shoes that I've been there. It's it. It's also having empathy as well, because I am putting myself in their shoes, even though I've been there. But I'm going down. I'm going back to a space you know, that I haven't been in in a long time. I don't. I'm their voice. Right. You know, you're you're their advocate. I'm there for
them. And if if you think that I'm still resentful, you're crazy. I'm Our marriage is very strong.
Yeah, we just left. We went to the wedding in Colorado and had so much fun. Oh, yeah. We danced all night together. We had an incredible time. Yes. That we have meaningful conversation. So much love. I look across the room to see you staring at me, smiling. Yeah. I know that look, that is like you love me. You are in love with me. Yes. You see me and you admire me and all that's present in our marriage again? Yeah. Started with this process of accountability. Yes. Without this? No.
I was telling you that. I know. We have to get off here really quickly, because we get our kid. But I was telling you earlier that I don't think that our marriage would have worked out had you not taking taking responsibility and hold, you know, been accountable? No, it was acknowledged and miserable for me to actually change, like, and not even just changing, but not. You saying you're sorry. And actually acknowledging what you did was a big deal. And a lot of people don't realize that.
It is. But it's not. It shouldn't be that that we should just make this normal. And
oh, no, I'm saying it's a big deal for me. Oh, okay. No, I mean, for you, it should be simple. Should it be like, oh, man, you know, I harmed you, you know, but for me, it was a big deal. Because if it didn't happen, I don't think our marriage would have worked.
Yeah. I don't see how it can Yeah, how can it? I
would, I would not have felt safe. And i i We all deserve to feel safe in our relationships.
Yeah. And if you don't have safety, dude, like we talked about intimacy, like that's off the table. Yeah, that's off the table. Like everything's off the table without the safety. Yes, they have to trust being safe is number one priority. Yeah. In order to trust that you have to get it. They need to know that you understand what you've done. Yes. And that helps with the conversation, not a unilateral decision to move forward in an arbitrary Yeah. All right. Well,
that's all we've got. Until next time, I'm Matt