You're really always looking at the potential and all the positives that go on in these relationships. And this happens a lot with codependence and addicts, because we're like, Oh, they're so good though. They're so good when they're good. They're good. But when they're bad, they're bad. So trauma bonding, we can talk about this in depth tonight about what exactly it is within an addictive relationship.
Welcome back. Well, come back to another episode until the wheels fall off on that I'm paid, man and this this crud that's been going around
last year it
God it's awful. It's awful.
I'd say I'm sorry, but I mean, we're bonded now.
Speaking of bonded, we'll get there. I feel like the the Quaker oatmeal guys in my head and he's just making oatmeal and stuffing it into my sinuses all day.
That's disgusting. It's what it feels like to be oatmeal. Why couldn't it be something else?
Oh, no oatmeal. It feels like oatmeal. It's just like so thick. And it's clogging my head. And forgive me. I sound like poo. And that's fine. It just is what it
is. He's kind of had a man cold. Oh, I
don't really do that. Start with me. You kind of do but it's
okay. Because I understand how you feel because it is miserable.
I'm a little offended about this whole man flu. Oh, I've always prided myself on not being the man flu guy. Like when I have fever. I will actually get up and do things, you know.
Yeah. You're gonna
do okay, whatever. That's fine. I disagree. All right. Just leave it at that. happenings in the, in our lives in our world. Not a whole heck of a lot. Still working really hard in the background to introduce some really cool stuff to you guys in the coming months, maybe possibly weeks. Depends on how fast we can get this stuff done. It's tough with a whole life. With a whole life. Yeah. With a whole life
doing other things. Yes. And being sick for a month at once.
Yeah, yeah, it's been tough. But it's been awesome. So and also stick around at the end of this episode because we are going to start answering listener questions. Last episode, we answered a question. I thought it was relevant for a whole episode. I think that was pretty good. What do you think? Yeah. And then what I'd like to address questions at the end of every episodes like a little segment. Questions from listeners? Yep. I think that'd
be fun. So stick around. Yeah, I love it when you brought that up. So stick around the end of that. Okay. So we have been having a lot of discussion in the background. On the topic of narcissism, yeah. Narcissism has become the new buzzword of social media, particularly tick tock. If you're not familiar with you, Okay, over here.
Sorry. There is a gnat flying around me and it keeps getting him a face plate from
this plant behind me and didn't look so hot. All the birds keeping it up. Oh, goodness. Okay. Narcissism anyway, narcissism has become like the new buzzword on social media it is popular search results are through the roof. There are more videos about this than you could ever imagine. And I've got a friend who's got a PhD in this stuff. And we were talking and he was like, this is just blowing my mind how popular
this has become. He's he described it like, like eating at a restaurant, like your whole life. And then all of a sudden, it's super crowded, because everyone finds out about it. And you're like, Hey, what's going on? Like, why is everyone here? That's what this is, sort of described it like that. And the three of us have had a lot of really cool and interesting conversations around this topic around narcissism. So I think that narcissism Okay, before I
start, it's valid, right? There are a lot of people who deal with narcissistic relationships, and I'm not coming at anybody at all. But I see the word and the term thrown around a lot almost like you know how like in like the late 90s It was like That guy's a psycho? Yeah, that's how they would refer to people who were just kind of like wheels off. Yeah, psycho now yeah, now it's that guy's a narcissist.
Yeah, like that's just the become the accepted term for someone who is like selfish, and they're just generally a pain in the ass. But real narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder affects roughly 10% of
the population. And we've had a lot of discussion about why that is to if it seems so prevalent, and then what could be driving some of this and a theory that we have that we're going to dig into much more starting today, right now here in this episode, is if you look at the the behavior of a narcissist, you look at all the so the DSM five is the it's essentially the Bible for diagnosing mental
disorders. And if you look in the criteria, you wouldn't if I covered up the chapter, you wouldn't know if you were reading about addiction or if you were reading about narcissism. Yeah. And we spent a lot of times in groups that deal with you know, narcissistic abuse and as well as addiction abuse and the two overlap. And as it turns out, studies are showing that these things Things aren't necessarily distinct, that they do have a ton of
overlap. So a lot of the things that take place in narcissistic relationships also take place in addicted relationships. And we've got a lot to say on both of these topics. But today we're going to focus on trauma bonding, yes, trauma bonding, which is you will commonly find this type of language when referring to narcissistic relationships, narcissistic personality disorder and the types of spouses partners that
these people have. But I think it's especially relevant to the addict alcoholic relationship as well. Yeah, I think so too. Okay, so tell me how you came across this. And like your work. You were kind of like our friend like, when you first started hearing about this narcissist stuff. You were like, What in the world? Where does this come from? Like, I've been in therapy for this stuff for years.
Oh, yeah. Learning about narcissism for very long time. It's something that I've researched a lot on. And I've it's been popping up a lot more recently, because I do work with a lot of people. And that word gets thrown out a lot. So I decided to just do some research. And then this, this blog came up about trauma bonding, and I've heard trauma bond a lot, but I never really looked into it. You know, I just
didn't think anything of it. And as I was reading through this, I was like, Holy crap, you know, how we're always telling people that they have this feeling of they hold on to the greatness of the partner that they're with? Oh, my gosh, what's the word I'm looking for?
benefits like, I
don't know, like when you're with somebody, and you're we say it all the time. We were saying it in our recent call. Oh, my gosh, I'm like completely blanking out right now.
I don't know I've always thought of is like you can it's really easy to romanticize the good times.
Yes. You're looking at the highs, the really positive stuff, but
potential potential potentials. Like, attached, that's
the word. That's the word that's. So you're really always looking at the potential and all the positives that go on in these relationships. And this happens a lot with codependence and addicts, because we're like, Oh, they're so good, though. They're so good. When they're good. They're good. But when they're bad, they're bad. So trauma bonding, we can talk about this in depth tonight about what exactly? It is within an addictive relationship.
Yeah, I think this is very fitting. And I think that is validating. And I think that it's, it's something that a lot of people are going to hear and be like, holy crap, I've been seen.
Uh huh. Because that's how I felt when I read this.
So what is a trauma bond? So a trauma bond occurs when someone becomes overly loyal or attached to another individual who exhibits toxic behavior? It's highly prevalent, like we've mentioned in narcissistic relationships, where there are repeated cycles of these of emotional or physical trauma, then followed by these intermittent periods of positive reinforcement. Yes. Sounds like a roller coaster.
Right. And whenever those positive reinforcement reinforcements happen, we actually get like a dopamine release.
Yeah, it's sort of like it fills a need. And it almost becomes like an addiction in itself, right. That's
why the cycle keeps continuing. So derail us
just a little bit. You always said like you like bad boys and projects. It's funny, like, this explains it. Like when I was using, you would get these little glimpses and like, Oh, I did that I fixed that. Like, that felt really good. Let me let me go through that again. And it's like you didn't you go through the the, you know, the low like the the dip, and you deal with all that crap. But to you, it's worth that rush at the top. Yeah. To feel that rush again, to feel that closeness
that connection. Yeah. Man,
we are so similar.
We really are, we really are and we were talking about this like romanticizing, right? Like, it's so easy in your mind to romanticize good times and forget the bad. Let's just say you have a job that if I asked you on any ordinary day, I would say how you like your job you would say? And I kind of hate it if I'm honest. Yeah. But then there are times where you can recall that one time that you got recognition in the meeting
and Everyone clap for you. And you're like, man, it's actually a pretty good place to work like strong culture. They pay me all right. But if you really look at it, stretch it out over time. This is crap. And it is crap. In overtime, the average says that it's generally crap. But we'll look at those
couple. I'm like toxic positivity, because we live in a society where it's like you need to look into the good stuff of stuff, be grateful for what you have. And it makes us dismiss the negative when in reality, we need to look at this negative stuff because it is affecting us.
Yeah, and it's not too dissimilar from what I've dealt with in my life and you can relate to this in a different way. Addicts alcoholics that have recovered they say it is the you know, it's the dream of every abnormal drinker to one day think that they can drink like normal people. Like it's an illusion that some people hold on to for the rest of their
lives. And it's funny like will be like knowing what I know about myself and what knew you know about me and my history, will be out on it always happens on vacation will be on one day. and we'll see if like, like we were in Maine whenever the guy had a beer on the beach. And I'm like, Oh, that looks really nice. That guy's just like enjoying a beer like at the sunset and a bit. That's really awesome. And I can romanticize for a moment how cool that would be and how I could probably do
that. And then I have to stop real quick and go, Wait a second. I never drink like that. Yeah, I drink like a pig. And drink like an idiot. Like, I never just had a beer on the beach, you know. But I can romanticize those one or two times in my life where I got the mix just right. And I had a great evening. And forget about the years and years and years of crap that I put us through and myself through. Yeah, that little rush you get from figuring it out just right that
time. Yep. And this is the exact same thing, but it's in a relationship with a partner, right? It is the exact same thing. Okay, so when it comes to trauma bonded relationships, there are some risk factors, some, let's call them red flags, I would say. Yeah, red flags. So these are things that like, okay, so anyone can develop a trauma bond, let's just say that and then we could develop a
trauma bond, okay. But there are certain characteristics of people that make them more at risk to fall into one of these relationships, okay. And so one of them is a low self esteem. Another one is a lack of social support. Another one is having financial difficulties. We'll talk about why here in a moment.
childhood maltreatment, so preexisting trauma of some kind, poor mental health and lack of a personal identity, these things all sort of set yourself up or set you up to be in a position where this could happen to you. And when I look at these risk factors, I'm also looking at if you blindfolded me and said, What are these I would say, well, these are like, this looks like codependency This is like the same exact thing. Yeah, this is the same thing that happens in the alcoholic addict
relationship. Right? But remember, we're talking about narcissism here. Yes. So more on that later. Yeah. More on that later. Okay, so trauma bonds in general, like when I first heard this term, I thought it was just like another word for shared trauma. Yeah, you did. I'm like, Isn't that like, when you survive a plane crash with someone and you just close forever? You're like, no, idiot. It's totally not it. You kind of had to describe to me like, like, like, what that really
was. So walk me through how this applies to people that we worked with, like, what have you seen? Not many, just in general, right. So knowing what you know about our relationship, folks that I know, folks that you know, like, how does this normally play out? Like, what are these relationships sort of look like from 30,000 feet? If you were to generalize the relationship?
Hey, when you ask me questions,
this is our job. We ask each other questions,
not necessarily, dear. Um, I mean, this is like, I guess the signs of trauma bonding? Is that what you're asking?
Let's say, I'm listening to this thing for the first time. And I'm trying to figure out if I'm in one of these relationships, like what are these look like with an addict or an alcoholic in your life? What does it look like? an abusive partner? Right? It's
a roller coaster, right? Yeah, it's, you're gonna be manipulated and gaslit. And then you're the addict or alcoholic, and your life will turn around and say, I'm sorry, I love you so much, our relationship is the best. And you have really good times with each other. And they that's called love bombing, kind of, and then they screw up again, and you keep giving them this, it's a cycle that just keeps going.
Yeah, and behind alcoholism, a lot of the time is an abusive person. Now abuse, like alcohol can lead to severity of symptoms with abuse, but abuse stands alone as its own thing. Like, alcohol doesn't necessarily turn a non abusive person abusive, like that's a misnomer, like abuse is inside of that person. Alcohol makes it worse. Right? And it makes it it triggers more risk to become physical and violence. Yeah. But it's there. Yeah, it's kind of
always there. Right. So thinking about these types of relationships, and this is no one in particular, this is just the, you know, how these things generally play out. You're really going to lose it on this net aren't you
know, it'll be hit smushed here in just a second. It's gonna go in my mouth when I talk. I'm really it's I don't know why. I'm gonna suck it up my nose. Okay.
But what we have is generally, a, you will have a lot of times a person who is financially dependent on usually it's a husband. Yeah. And they've been together for a long time. There are children involved. And so there is a there is an imbalance of power. Right? Right. There's an imbalance of power in the relationship. So you have a need for this person. And the alcoholism exacerbates the abuse. And you go through these periods of time where you feel
just lower than low. You You feel like you're just, you know, beat to the ground? Like, there's no way I deserve this. And then that person turns around. And in the same week, sometimes we'll take you to dinner, we'll tell you how awesome you are. We'll tell you how great things are going how they were sorry for the abuse. And it makes you hopeful. You see potential, right, and then it falls back into the cycle.
Yeah, once again. Yeah. And over time, these periods, these intermittent periods get shorter and shorter and shorter, where the, the abuse just seems to be ongoing with very little reprieve and these positive, you know, flow periods. Yeah, it just tends to get really nasty, right? So signs that you're in a trauma bonded relationship, we just touched on one where there is a power imbalance. Yeah, so walk me through a power imbalance, like, how does this like manifests itself? And what
does this look like? When there's a imbalance of power? Well, like you said, the
financial power,
that's a big one, that might be the biggest, it is a big one.
Because you know, we rely on you to pay our bills.
Yeah, and this is not saying it's right, or it's wrong, I'm just saying this is as well, this happens a lot of time is that the the wife, the maternal will stay home and take care of the kids take care of the home, and the Reliant financially on the spouse that is, you know, out making money to pay the bills. And so when you look at the balance of power here, it takes away some of your freedom to make choices about well, if I'm in an abusive relationship, why wouldn't I
just leave? Well, he just said it, like logistically, sometimes it's, like, nearly impossible to just pack up and go,
it's not impossible, but it is really hard. It makes it way more difficult. And then another one is emotional power. So where someone loses their sense of emotional defense and feels defined by their relationship with their
abuser becomes like their identity. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a tough one.
I have. I have speak to that. I have very much experience in that with you. Okay, way back in the day, I was very just, I was defined by our relationship. I totally lost myself and everything that you did, I would do. And I don't know why I can't like, I could never pinpoint why I did that. But it was just, I was just defined by us. It was weird.
So like, when you looked at yourself, you saw like, my partner, rather than like, Paige, like, the awesome individual that you are, you saw just like my partner. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. It makes sense. I think that happens when we get caught up in these relationships and become, you know, we take pride in our relationships, become like some people go way too far with sports teams. Yes. You know, like their identity becomes like Packers fan or Cowboys fan, right. And like, that becomes part of your
identity. Yeah. Makes total sense. Okay. Another sign is that if you have a circle of people around you who don't approve of your relationship, yeah, this one's really big, there might be something to this,
there is something to this. So a lot of people that we do talk to you and I can relate to this, I understand it completely. We don't want to talk to other people about what's going on. Or if we do, they don't understand. And they just tell us just leave, just leave, just leave a relationship, like as a monster get out of there. Right? Right, because they can see things that we may not be able to see.
Yeah, another set of eyes from 30,000 feet, once again, like looking down, is going to be able to see things and patterns that maybe you don't realize whenever you're right in the middle of it. And I have also been in this before this you have where when you're in, it's not so easy to see it. And it becomes so familiar to you, because it's taking place possibly your whole entire life.
And it's just like the way things are Yeah, you know, and it's the toughest part is the like, that's that potential piece, right? Like, you know, people like you think, you know, people anyway in their heart, and it's like, well, I know why they do the things they do and like this, because of this. They were abused when they were younger, or all these excuses and justifications is really what they are that we make it. There are these are red flags, though. These are warning signs.
If you have other people telling you like, that's not right. Because for me, I know that it took a group of people totally outside to see what was going on and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Timeout, timeout, timeout. This is this is not right. Did you know that? And I was like What do you mean? seems totally cool. What are you talking about?
Right? But deep down, you always knew that there was something that was off, right? It was something that we've noticed that there's something off but we just don't know what it is until you start to surround yourself with a support system that's like, here's what it is. And this is, you know, a different perspective on how you can handle this situation. You basically get a support system. Listen to them a little bit, even though it hurts.
Yep. Another one. So if you can seal negative emotions, so if you're constantly hiding negative emotions and you only We let them out, like when you're alone or isolated, you could be in a trauma bond,
right? Because you don't want to say anything to your abuser. Now, if they say if you say it to them, they are going to act like the victim. They're gonna flip it and make you feel guilty for expressing those feelings. So we, you know, don't if you can't have a conversation with your partner about how you're feeling, and if it's negative, and they, you know, can't actually just talk with you about it. That's unhealthy.
That means this is a toxic relationship, you're in that you might want to question.
Yeah, this guy like hearing this stuff, Mike's having all these moments like, gosh, you know what? I mean?
I always knew that. I don't know, there was something. I knew that we could work on the validation piece with you. I know. That was something that was really hard for you to do. Yeah, definitely. And it was hard like I wouldn't, I would hold back a lot of my emotions or my feelings to you, because I know that it will make me feel worse and an unhealthy relationship. You don't want to feel worse, you want to feel better, you want to feel safe and comforted and stuff like that.
Yeah, if your partner can't hold space for you to feel however you need to feel. And they turn it around and flip it back on you and blame you for all these things and blame you for your emotions, like they could be a sign right? Could be a sign. It could also just be sign that there's a total asshole. Like, you know, maybe it's not exactly this, but it's a sign. Another one is that you might feel indebted to your abuser. So we talked about like
the financial peace. And some of that goes along with this, like for some really toxic relationship types where the spouse usually a male, and I'm not beating up on guys, but men tend to be abusers. And men also tend to be narcissists. Yeah. 75% of narcissists are men, I believe. And when it comes to abusers, in general, this is this happens to be a male trait, it is what it is. So I'm just gonna speak how it is, I'm not trying to be a jerk, and nothing happens on the other end as
well. But it does happen. The other I'm not gonna say it doesn't. It's just typical. So for ease of conversation, I'm just gonna refer to men doing these things. So a lot of time, you'll have a man who earns an income and like, you're, that's supposed to be like, the end all be all, like, I pay your bills I provide for you, I do all this stuff. And they will also hold things over your head. Like, remember that time in 2007, when I was really nice to you, and I took you to, you know, wherever
it might have been. And remember that time that your grandfather died, and I was there for you like, normal, healthy relationships. Don't do that.
No. I don't keep score. Yeah, you've never done that with me.
I'm glad to hear that at least. But it also just trying to make it relatable. Well,
I've done things. I'm not perfect. I've done shit like that. I felt that held things against you. Okay, I can't think of anything like, at the top of my head. But yeah, I'm
not perfect. We're not perfect. Like, don't ever get the impression that we're perfect. No, we're imperfect people just trying to be better. Right? That's it. That's it on the other side of this, because the first thing we just talked about, like, you know, the financial peace and like, look what I've done for you. That's all a way of establishing control. Abusers more than anything want control. They just
want control. They want control of you over your life over your thoughts over your actions, your emotions, every bit of it, they want control. This happens a lot when people are actively using as well. But another piece is that if you've ever made a mistake in the past, they will hold that over your head for the rest of your life. And here's why this is really difficult. All these things we've just discussed. The people that ended up with alcoholics addicts, a lot of time happened to be
empaths. These are people who feel feelings like you would not believe these are incredibly emotionally genuine people that are introspective, and they are always looking at their part in things. And so like we've always said, like, it doesn't matter what it is, you've got a part in it, even if it's 1%. Right. Yeah, that's generally I will say that kind of stuff to people whenever I'm trying to get them to see maybe how they had a part
when they were wronged. But the other side of that, is it with an impact, they will take that 1% And they will amplify it to like 100 Yeah, it's like they will disregard bad things that have happened because they look within themselves. And what did I do wrong? What did I do? And it leaves you feeling indebted to your abuser? Yeah, so an alcoholic addict relationship that can be very, very tough to deal with. Yeah. And then this is perhaps the most like
insidious of all of them. And we talk about this a lot a lot is that you experience a loss of identity if you are experiencing a loss of identity. This could be a sign that you are in a trauma bond relationship. And I think that just about everyone that we come into contact with has this to some degree. Yeah, they have lost their identity. They've lost themselves, and their journey in their healing is about rediscovering
themselves. Hmm. So let's run through some of these things like what is a loss of identity first of all, like what is the what are the signs Isn't that and how do you recognize these things? Okay, so
you have an intense fear or hesitation about leaving the relationship even if you know you should you constantly cover up or make excuses for their behavior. Your relationship is moving at a fast pace.
Oh, that's, that's another one. That happens a lot in new relationships. Yes. That evolve very quickly. Right, right, exactly right. It can take place in long term as well.
This kind of goes back to what Matt was saying earlier and this is what I see across the board with so many people that I work with is that you believe the mistreatment is your fault, or that you deserved it and that breaks my heart just saying it and hearing it every time I hear it because they're blamed for so much shit. And it's just sad because they're just like what am I doing wrong? I need if you tell me what I'm doing wrong, I
can fix it right? You feel close to the individual even if you haven't known them for long that's another one it fits in earlier relationship. The individual constantly gaslight and manipulates you
Yeah. Which is this happens in narcissistic relationships especially but we've also talked about this very thing right with addiction. Yeah, but in addiction so the differences like these things are the same, but they're different when it comes to manipulation and gaslighting. A lot of times the the addicts attempt to deflect attention away from their problem looks is is is the gaslighting manipulation. When it comes to a narcissist and someone with NPD, it is more a way to gain fuel
for their supply. Yeah, you are their supply and they are trying to you know, they they they need you to admire them. They need that recognition, that validation. That's like that's their drug. Yep.
You feel isolated from loved ones you in your life, which we've talked about a lot as well, because there are many reasons why we do isolate ourselves. Could be because we don't like to hear what other people say or no one understands what we're going through, which is definitely valid. And also it could be because your abuser is controlling you to where they don't want you to be around certain people. That happens to
Yeah, if you've got people in your life that are telling you how it is. That's very dangerous to alcoholics, addicts, narcissists. All alive. Absolutely. Yeah, they do not like those, they will make up all kinds of things about how this person just doesn't want to see you happy and they're jealous and gives all kinds of crazy stuff that they'll do.
Right. And then there was one more Oh, sorry. You feel like no one else can fulfill your needs, but them. Man, that's a tough one. It is because you feel like you can only be loved by this one person.
And that's how like breaking ever tell yourself.
It's so heartbreaking. It is a lie. Because once you find yourself I tell you what, oh my gosh, you're gonna move mountains.
Yeah. And trauma bonding. So, okay, so for black and white thinkers out there, right. So
you always have to tiptoe around this because you know how I roll all relationships
have ups and downs. Okay. It is natural to romanticize things. We're not talking about a normal relationship, healthy relationship with their space held for feelings, emotions, thoughts and opinions. We're talking about abusive relationships, we're talking about relationships where you've had the ugliest things said to you on a regular basis. And not to say that it's necessarily frequency that dictates abuse.
It's it's abuse, it's the need to control you, it's the need to to keep you and to control the you know, the things that you feel that you act on the things that you want and desire. Like that's that's abuse. Excuse us. We're both struggling not to cough over here. But you can have a healthy relationship and still have ups and downs that's totally totally
normal. But it's also you're going to have more of that positive feeling and more of that love feeling than you will the negative in these types of relationship it's typically more sadness and fear and negativity that it is you know, that feeling of safety and security
it's so when it comes to trauma bonding, when it comes to narcissistic behavior when it comes to addiction, alcoholism, all these things I think that something that you talked about earlier potential something that keeps people around is this thought that they can change
this person. Yeah. And it's just like this, this thought that there's there's limits, there's some way that you could like save that person inside that you can kind of see it's like man, if I could just bring that out I'd be set right you know, but that is a that's an adventure that you could spend the rest of your life on in rubber get anything done. Ultimately abusive people have to deal with the abuse they have to deal with why they are abusers. You know, the symptoms aren't going to fix
anything. Yep. If you just take away the alcohol, it's all gonna happen. Yeah, it's still going to happen if this person is narcissistic. It's still going to happen. And like it's really tough to diagnose and I've read a lot about this like which came first the chicken or the egg like how do you tell if you're dealing with a narcissist or an alcoholic? Yeah, it's very difficult. Yes, the symptoms are
sensitive. Oh, Similar, like you can look at the the signs, symptoms, all of it like you could do a test and you would not be able to tell the difference. So the researchers have a tough time with this too. And narcissism and alcoholism do have are shown to be related where there's a high frequency of substance abuse disorder in narcissist. So which came first? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. But I do know that alcoholism is treatable. And NPD is really not. Yeah, it is. It can be changed over
time. But it's, we don't know too much about look
is not great. I'll put it that way. Yeah. But for just a moment, we can talk about what this behavior looks like in our marriage and what it looked like when I was using Yeah, and maybe for someone who does have a loved one or spouse in recovery, maybe provide some hope. I don't know. Like, what was it like dealing with me? I don't know. 12 years ago,
when you were using Yeah, I mean, it was just the lies, constant lying and the constant, you know, but you did always say I promised to be a good man. So that's where that potential came in. My answer to that there would be the lies and then the manipulation, and you know, gaslighting that if I were to say something, you would tell me I'm wrong or whatnot. And then you would come back and say, I promised to be a good man, I love you so much. And this and that. And I would get high off of that.
Think about breaks my heart here and that but you got through it. Well, think about it in terms of some of the things that are more difficult to change. Like the the self esteem that the low self esteem that leads to like the grandiose behavior, like the need to feel important all the time. Like the entitlements and all that stuff. Like, when I was using I was just like, I was a mess. Yeah, freaking disaster. Yeah, like, my emotions were incredibly unstable. You never knew what
you were gonna get. Oh, yeah, that's true. Like day to day, like you never knew who you were coming home to? I don't know. It could be Jack.
Sorry, dude, or somebody who's super like, or his if your Adderall was coming down. I was like, oh, man, I need to stay away from him. If he's just coming off of his Adderall.
Yeah, like Jekyll and Hyde man is bad, then. So like, I do want to provide some sort of some glimmer of hope that if someone really, really, really wants to address their abusive behavior, you know, the alcoholism, if you remove the substance, it becomes easier to address these things. But I addressed all the underlying things, which led to growth over time, and I am a work in progress, and I always will be for the rest of my life. But there is hope for someone.
Absolutely. There's hope for someone isn't fucking awesome. But having said that, to the black and white thinkers don't just breast on that. Yeah, that's true. Let them show you something before you do anything at all right? Because we've just described a relationship where one person is essentially stuck. Yeah, they're stuck. It's a next obvious questions like, how do you break out of this? What do you do? Like how do you break a trauma bond?
Do you have to separate yourself from the relationship? First and
foremost? And I think that's possibly the most difficult thing. And like that's a that's one step. But that's also a process, right? It's a process. It's coming to the understanding, like, of the truth of this, right? So it doesn't just happen overnight. It's not something that you're just going to be like, Okay, well, that's simple. I'll just,
yeah, well, let's say that you don't have a job. And you do rely on exactly what's the step? What's the next step? What can you do that's different than what you've been doing this whole time looking for a job?
Let me break it up. I think this is helpful breaking up that first step, like remove yourself from the relationship. Okay, that's a loaded, pregnant concept. Like, I think that if you focus on the truth, and you focus on the current situation, then you are already in a place where you can see this thing from the outside. What is my what is the last month look like? You can even keep track of it. Keep track of the Tiree write
down, write this stuff, keep track of it. Absolutely. You've done this. You've journaled this stuff? It is very tremendously rolling it Yes. And I write things down to
so easy when you're trauma bonded to forget these things. Yeah, I've even had to talk to you about that very skill. I've forgotten. So much. Like I remember a couple of the really bad ones. But the other stuff that most people consider, like that's horrible. I forget about it, because it's just my norm. Yeah, just forget it. Right. So writing it down. So focus on the truth, focus on the current situation and begin journaling
this stuff. Yep. That's the first step if they're, you know, verbally and emotionally abusive on a regular basis, like start out a little tally in your journal. Yep. This is what's happened, maybe some specifics about that event. So when it comes time to make this difficult decision, you can look back at the reality. Let's look at the current situation and the truth. And then it becomes easier to say, okay, yeah, I realize that I'm in a really
difficult situation. And I have, I'm not making it up. I've got proof. So I understand I have to leave. So I think it's helpful to sort of put it into perspective.
Yeah, that makes sense. And this is also if you've completely lost your identity and you don't know who you are. This is a really good time for you to start focusing on yourself and doing things for self care and trying to build up that self esteem.
Yeah, practicing self care is tremendously important. I think. Have we done an episode on self care? No, but I want to do one because I think it's been mentioned, like more times than I can count. But we've never really like honed in on it like no samples, things we've done, right?
Because a lot of people, they'll come to me and say, I don't even know what self care looks like, how do I yeah, what did I even start, I don't even know how to focus on me, I don't even know where to start. I don't know where my values are. And that's where I'm coming into play. And I can help break it down for them. And I have a whole bunch of different tools
for that. Awesome. So looking forward to that one, that's gonna be a good one. But you're right. Practicing self care. Yes, you've got to
build up your self esteem. And if you want to really figure out what you want to do with this relationship,
yeah. And then develop a support group of some kind. So whether it be loved ones and your family, if they don't understand. Don't try to make them seek someone else. As their support groups online, we've got a community pretty awesome community. Shout out to Phil community, who calls weekly. Yeah, and there are also several others out there. Like I'm not just saying we're the only one.
I know that I was just No, yeah, we don't Yeah, we do sample we've got a weekly call we're doing on Thursdays right now. Right. So if you change, it'll change next week. So just to change because of a self care activity. Because I chose something for myself page signed up for it's awesome class, and she'll be doing that Thursday night. So we'll switch it up.
But, but that's a place where you can come and feel like, okay, these people get me a support group, these people are saying I'm going through, they're rooting for me, they want to see me win. So if you don't get support from your direct family, which I hope they do, then you can get it somewhere else. Practicing self care talks about that. And then allowing yourself time to heal.
Like we've, we've talked about these like 3060 90 Day marks before, how like 30 days, you will feel like you're making progress. It's 60 days, you will have like the biggest setback of all time. And it 90 days, you feel like you've actually learned something, you're starting to crawl out of it. Yep, we're talking about three months, which feels like an eternity sometimes does, but allowing yourself time to heal.
And I think that anytime I'm dealing with someone who's really especially for my end of things like working through recovery, like those first 90 days are crucial for healing in general. I think that's when new habits are established is when you're learning a lot of truths about yourself. That's when you're starting everything is wrong. You actions. Yeah, super raw, super raw. And like, like when you when you take away the pacifier here, it's going to feel like withdrawal. It's going
to feel like panic. Yeah, like the way I've always described like massive change in life. It's like, you remember back in the day when radios, you could turn up the radio and get out of the car and then get back in the car on the radio still be loud. Now they're all digital, and like, they don't do that anymore. Yeah, but like, I used to see my uncle all the time. I would. I was over his house. He like his old Woody and I would get in. If I knew he was going
somewhere that night. I would crank it up, like all the way and then shut the door. So whenever he got in the car, he was hard. That's what life feels like. To me anyway, like whenever I'm undergoing massive changes, and I've removed a pacifier of some kind. Yes, like whenever I got sober this was like this. I've made other major life changes, like your nerves are just so freakin raw like you sunburn and
this happens with leaving an unhealthy relationship as well. Like detoxing, you really do come from Do you your body goes through the same type of things as detox. It's very similar to what y'all go through.
You will be guilt ridden you will feel like Oh, am I doing the right thing? You know, I I screwed up. I need to go back like all these things are normal. Okay, just give yourself time to heal.
Yes, if you're still time resource thing is to break that cycle and to not dip back into your drug of choice, which would be your partner.
Yeah. And then I think the last one, I advise anyone who's really going through this to seek counseling, professional counseling. Yep, incredibly helpful. Podcasts are great. Books are great. Coaches are awesome. But when it comes to professional counseling, there's no substitute for professional licensed therapists to walk you through this kind of stuff. Right. A quick break in the action to let you know about an exciting development in the Tufo
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It's extremely important. So hope we've given you some kind of background on trauma bonding and how these buzzwords that you might be hearing about apply to your life. And I think that when we talk about trauma bonding in the realm of alcoholism, addiction and partnership marriages, it's it's real. It's as real as anything I've ever come across. Like this is this is to a tee it's textbook. Yes. And I think we can link this
somewhere. And awesome article we found that we've kind of worked through to talk about some of the stuff anyone has any more questions about it? Okay.
Listen to it in the community. Oh, did you did yesterday forgotten
the community? It's in there. Okay. It's in the community. Okay. Listener question. Okay. Question was, when is a good time to discuss how their addiction affected you in the process? This is a great question. Yep. Great question. So it's very common, and this person is with someone who's recovering. And the addict just wants to forget about the past, they want to sweep it under the rug. They claim that when this is brought up, it brings them shame, and holds them back from
moving forward. Oh, so as the spouse this person says, I'm still grieving and processing what has happened in the quote unquote, past. Because their quote, unquote, past is still this person's present. And they're not just going to allow this stuff to be swept under the rug. But the addict their, you know, newly recovered alcoholic, is avoidant doesn't want to talk about any of this stuff. It's too heavy for them. And so when is a good time to talk about this? Is there a
shot a timeframe? Yeah. So it depends on their recovery.
What was your experience with this,
my experience is that I did not address it for a while, because I allowed you to do what you had to do. Because I was proud of you for where I was grateful that you went and got help. And I was grateful that you had to be in recovery and do what you needed to do. I didn't want to rock the boat early on, there was no reason to bring up things that were happening that happened to me in the past, that also didn't really start to affect me until later on, too. So I don't know if I have the
best advice on this. Because mine was kind of different. I allowed you to do what you had to do. I wasn't going to let things get swept under the rug. And I would bring things up occasionally. But I knew that you would get there eventually, to where you would want to discuss it a lot of faith in me, I did have a lot of faith in you. Wow.
It means a lot. It really does. Really, yeah, seriously, it means a lot because like I'm looking at this, and I've dealt with this, working with people through addiction there. And I've heard this from the other side. It's like, hey, my wife keeps trying to bring up all this stuff. And like I just don't know, like, is that really important right now? My answer is like, yes, it's important. Absolutely. It's important, but
and validate that. But I think that there is a time and a place to address some of these really heavy things. Early on, we've talked about like the changes that are going on physiologically in the brain. And within someone's recovery. I think in the very beginning, you're so focused on just not drinking, it's about all that you can withstand. Yeah. But I would never recommend to someone to not listen to their partner, and to validate them like it cost nothing to validate them,
right. You don't necessarily have to make amends for all these things and fix them today. But to validate them, that can happen right away.
I mean, be honest and communicate. They could be they could say, you know, I understand your feeling this way, I understand that I hurt you. And I know there's a lot of things that we did just that we need to discuss. And I will get to that that point at some point, you know, eventually we will get there. I'm not going to let it get swept under the rug. And I'm here for you.
Yeah, like the process. If this person is working 12 Steps anyway, in the first three steps, they're going to be essentially establishing like a an idea of what we call a higher power. They're going to be admitting that, you know, this problem is something they have
no control over. And then they're going to start to do their actual work, which is the process of going through the resentments, their fears, their sex inventory, they're going to be you know, turning these things over and sort of relinquishing control over them know their higher power concept. And then eight, nine, they start to make amends. And that's when this stuff really that the rubber meets the road with a men's Yeah. And depending on the
pace that they're working. The programs could take anywhere from nine months to a year when they're actually at that step. Now, I'm not saying that I think you should, you should be patient to nine months to a year and hope, right? I would hope that whoever asked this question would have their their partner chime in and listen to this. And I would say to them, that the things that you have done need to be acknowledged, doesn't mean necessarily have to fix them today, but you need to
acknowledge them. So as your partner is sitting there telling talking to you about how they felt, you need to shut up and listen for a moment. And just listen, I'm not asking you to fix it, don't come up with solutions. Just let them talk, damn it just for a moment, sit there and listen, right? It's their turn. Yes. So their space and you get to where this, this is part of recovery, you have to let the stuff in the face and you have to own it, you did these things, you have to own
them. I'm not saying it's a process of shame. I'm not saying that you're less than I'm saying you need to listen to your partner and just let them communicate to you how they felt. Let them process that. And then at the end of it, rather than trying to make excuses or justifying or anything else, just say, I understand that the way you feel like, I'm terribly sorry for these things and just know that I'm working on them. I'm working on these things
right now. And if I had it my way, I would have fixed these already. But I'm just not quite there yet. I'm still in a whirlwind trying to figure my own shit out. But I promise you, I acknowledge these things. And I will make this right somehow some way. That would be I would think like, okay, ideal, ideal an answer, right? Something you could acknowledge, and then give them validation and say, okay, yeah, moving forward, I will address these things. But, you know, does that take? Is that
take a week? Is that take a month? Is it take a year, I think as a spouse anyway, you should be able to address these things when whenever you feel like it. I think that I teach guys that I work with that. It's not a your business, how they feel it's none of your business, what timeframe that they address this stuff on? It's none of your business, dude, you lost control, you've lost control over your entire life. You we're not to dictate terms of anything for a little while. Yeah, we'll
get back there, right. But for here for a while, you just need to let the world kind of just be if that's part of the world, then you just need to sit there and acknowledge it. And I think for an addict, they feel shame. And that's, that's what's dangerous is that shame is feeling like this is who I am, this is what I am. Whereas I look at recovery as saying like, these are it's more of like guilt, like these are things that I've done. But that's not necessarily who I am, right,
trying hard enough. It's not necessarily who I am. These are things that I've done, I acknowledge that I've done these things, but I can make living amends moving forward, and there can be a better tomorrow. Yeah. So if it's if it's conjuring feelings of shame for them, they're going to have to process that on their time. I think it's really helpful, though. And anytime you're talking about harms that have done, it's important not to it's not a contest of who can make who feel
worse, right? But just by you telling me like you telling me what you'd been through certainly made me feel like crap, but I needed to hear some of this stuff. It's not our fault, your fault that I felt this way I felt this way, because I had genuine remorse and empathy. Yeah, that's a good thing. Yeah. And emotion I hadn't experienced in quite some
time, right? It is what it is, you know, if they're working a program and they're in a safe place, then they're going to be able to work through this stuff. And like I said, healthy communication around it. Like, you don't necessarily owe them anything as far as like making their life easy. Like you can support them and say, I've been devastated by you. I've been hurt very badly by you. So as far as like, timing,
I think that was great.
I hope that answers your question. Yeah. That's great. And I hope the partner would hear that. Some sense of that. Yes. So yeah, I think that, that wraps it up. That's our listener question for the week. Those are fun. Y'all keep sending those in and we will keep answering them. Okay, um, I think that's all we've got this week, right? Like, there's something we're just missing. I can't remember what it is. I don't know. Trying so hard. That call is awful. Yes. Let's go. Alright. Until next time,
I am Matt. I'm Paige. Bye