I want this to come from not a resentful place because I'm not resentful about anything. I'm not a victim or anything like that. I'm actually in a very healthy space. So this is for those that are angry in the world right now with what they're going through. They're right in the middle of it. Yes. When you're right in the middle of it, because you I'm giving you permission to have those feelings, you are allowed to be angry.
Welcome back. Well, come back to another episode of till the wheels fall off. I'm Matt. I'm Paige. And we're gonna get through this as best we can. I'm dealing with a sibling over here. Tell them what you did.
I didn't go to the doctor in time. So my strep turned into bronchitis.
Notability they're mad. Just out with it. That's exactly right. I live with an 80 year old man who doesn't believe in doctors.
That's bullshit. I do believe in doctors. When she gets sick. She's like, I thought it was viral. Okay, and when it's viral, they can't do anything for you. But then Matt went, he started getting the symptoms. He's like, I'm gonna go to the doctor. And he did and they gave him a prescription because he has strep. So I was like, Oh, well, shit. I'm way past it. I
had strep because my throat hurt just like yours did three days prior. If it's strep, it's a great news because
I had other stuff with it, too. Okay, y'all, this is just one of my character defects. Okay.
Anyway, if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll notice a toilet paper roll. Oh, yeah. On our desk because
I went there two boxes of Kleenex is yesterday, y'all.
She filled up like yard garbage bags. Just
good toilet paper, though. It's not like totally tearing up my nose. That's that four ply. So I apologize in advance that I sound ridiculous. I don't know why y'all I used to not ever get sick. I don't know what's going on this year. I've been getting sick a lot. If you listen to some of the podcasts, it's like I'm constantly getting a bug. So don't know what the hell's
going on. It'll do that to you. And maybe just kids, they said, it'd be awesome.
It's fun. It'd be great. Alright, so anyway, apologize in advance. So what are we talking about today? Boo.
Okay, we're gonna get into a topic. I think that needs to be addressed. And we've addressed it here many times. But we've got a lot of new listeners, a lot of new people who are coming in. A lot of people have just recently discovered us and what we're about. So this topic started over the weekend, when we sat down to watch TV, going through Amazon Prime looking at documentaries, and one that popped up was Bill w. And I've seen there was a movie with what Who was the guy that played
Lieutenant Dan, remember him? I don't remember the actor's name.
Ah, dang it. Okay.
Does he have like sort of a feminine name or my?
No, he just doesn't. So there's at the end of the last, the last name was like an S.
Oh, anyway, someone's screaming in their car right now.
It's no,
sorry. Anyway, I'd seen that movie, where he portrays Bill Wilson. Bill Wilson is the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, and he was married to Lois Wilson. And so the documentary covers the story of Bill Wilson. Starting Alcoholics Anonymous,
it starts with him. Pre drinking goes through his drinking sprees up until the time he starts a and then and then post a and his wife, Lois Wilson is featured pretty prominently in this and every time they talk about her, your heart kind of breaks, because they talk about her struggles as being the spouse of the most famous alcoholic of all time and what he endured to get this thing started. And just a brief synopsis. He he was unavailable to her while he was
a drunk, obviously, yeah. When he got sober, he dove into that program as hard as one can and became unavailable to her as he helped other people. And then he became unavailable as the frontman of Alcoholics Anonymous and being caught up in, you know, all of that setting up the traditions to make sure that the fellowship, you know, would be around long after he was gone. And it's almost like right at
the very end of their life. She got a few good years with him before he passed away ultimately, yeah, of emphysema. He's a big smoker. Yeah. But I just she's like this tragic figure in this beautiful story about this famous alcoholic and it's just like men, is that just not the most is that that is the best way to like surmise the way that codependence and spouses of alcoholics are portrayed in general. So we're talking about the Forgotten partner today. I
think it's a fitting topic. I think that it's something we cover here and for new listeners and for old ones as well. I think this would be validating for you and I hope that you find something here that makes you feel like you're not alone that you do deserve a voice. Yeah. By all means, Oh, you were just about to get going. I heard the interview.
Yeah, you're letting me talk. Thank you. I'm sorry. Okay, so after we watched this documentary, I thought it would be a good idea. Hey, let's search for some documentaries on the spouses, you know, so we searched Al Anon or Lois or codependent codependent and there was no Not very many movies that popped up there was a movie with Wynonna Ryder that popped up that was about Lois was a call. When When love is not enough, something like that.
So I think you're right. Yeah. And then there were, I couldn't find like an actual documentary. But it kept popping up with adding documentaries. One after another one after another. There were there were several parades. There were, you know, the show intervention, there were so many documentaries about how these addicts, you know about the disease and how they got through it. And, and all this and that, and I'm just like, it kind of triggered me like it really did.
We were sitting in bed, and I just kind of let loose, I was cussing and, and I'm, I want this to come from not a resentful place. Because I'm not resentful about anything. I'm not a victim, or anything like that. I'm actually in a very healthy space. So this is for those that are angry in the world right now with what they're going through right in the middle of it. Yes, when you're right in the middle of it, because you I'm giving you permission to have those feelings, you are allowed to be
angry. But it pissed me off because I feel like we have been forgotten. And we have gone through so much shit. By loving so hard. We love so hard in our relationships. And we get forgotten. There's nothing out there. Like there are some things out there. There are some resources out there. I'm not going to downplay that there are some, but not nearly as many as there are for the addicts.
Know, Like, I don't know when the turn happened. But sometime in the last decade, being in recovery kind of became like a badge of honor and like something really cool and something admired. And it doesn't so much have the stigma that it used to. Because so many people have dealt with it like I have we done the stats on this. Yeah, we
did we have I mean, it's very common, obviously, like, there's a lot of people struggling with that out there. And I praise you. I think it's amazing what you went through. I think it's very, like you kudos to you. You deserve a fucking trophy. There's nothing wrong with that. But what about the ones who suffered from your hands? Yeah. What about the ones who 1000s had to deal with the trauma? What about the ones who trust just we're doing the right thing as much as we could? And
we're getting shit on? Like, where's our voice? Where's our trophy? Yes, I know, you can go to meetings, you can get it safe. This is different. It's not as big as it is for you guys.
Yeah, it doesn't permeate society the same way. Like when you tell someone that you're recovered addict, it's like you get kudos and fist bumps and things like that. And being the spouse of someone in recovery, or being the partner or spouse of someone who's still struggling, is something that people just don't talk about with a lot of pride in any way. And I think it's something that people are scared to talk about.
I think it's something that when you look at your life, and you say, Okay, who am I It has absolutely defined you in many ways. But that part of our identity is left out of conversations, and it's left out of certainly the mainstream world, like no one's really discussing what what spouses and family members go through. In alcoholism, addiction, they're often referred to as a family
disease, a family illness. And that's because that the it's almost like, you know, you put a rotten apple in a batch of good apples and all sudden, all of them are rotten. That's sort of what addiction does to family units, and companies and, you know, fellowships like churches and things like that, you get someone like that in there, and they start to touch everyone else. And suddenly everyone's sick in some way. It's, it's, it doesn't discriminate, and it wrecks it absolutely. wrecks
families. You guys go through this stuff. And when you come out the other end of it, there's just not a hell of a lot of resources out there to talk about what you've been through, that will hold space for you and your resentment and your anger, which is, I mean, you should be validated, you should be validated that it's okay to feel angry, like your life has been derailed by something that wasn't your choosing. Right, right. And addiction was at some
point. So when the disease concept of addiction came into play, one major benefit that it had was it D stigmatized addiction as a moral failure. And it started to look at it as a disease of the brain a disease of the mind. And I look at okay, so if a disease of the mind exists in just this one person, then how is it that everyone else around them ends up just as sick and we're not calling it anything except for essentially
a moral failing? Yeah, you should just leave him you should just go What's wrong with you? Why
would you study pick up put up with that? Yeah, yeah. And like,
I don't want to get too too far off the rails to this quickly, but going when you look at so love, I think can universally be agreed as natural human biology. The capacity to love is unique to us, and to show affection for other people and to self sacrifice for other people against you. your best interest is love. That is true love. And what these people will do for an addict and not get it reciprocated does have effects that are far reaching and deep
and dramatic. And no one's discussing what's actually going on in the codependent in the children in the family members have these people that are doing this. It's just not discussed. And we have, you know, several theories as to why it's not as popular. But I think it sort of goes back to that, that feeling that it's sort of like a moral failing. Yeah. You're pretty emotional right now.
Oh, sorry. Yeah. No, I
think it's important that we, this is the side of it that no one gets to see. And if you're listening, you don't see it. But I mean, extremely emotional right now, because this stuff, this is this was your life.
But it's hard to speak up and say that I'm angry or that I've been angry about it. Because, like you said, people look at it. I'm the bad guy. I'm wrong for feeling angry, like I it's, the spouses get told and judged that they're wrong for feeling that way. And I think that's complete bullshit. Yeah, I think so I can feel this way, right. And I think that spouses can feel this way. But they can also recover. And they can go and get help themselves to, they can get help with all the trauma
that they've gone through. So I'm not saying this is like, sit in that anger. And it's all of the addicts fault, because it's not all the addicts fault. But a lot of a lot of it is
a lot of that stuff wouldn't have transpired. Had that person not been abusing drugs and alcohol, let's just be real about it. Right? Like, a good friend of mine. The good doctor tells me that that's a show, is it. He says that nature, loads the gun in the environment pulls the trigger. So a lot of the things that were inside me, they were already there, I believe that they were already there, and my environment unlocked them. And you had some of that same stuff, perhaps. But your environment
was a direct result of me. So it's not exactly the same thing. Right? You know, like I have caused this in people that otherwise would have been fine. Let's imagine in a different universe in a parallel dimension. We never met, you probably be fine. Just being real, right?
Maybe, maybe I would have found somebody else. Similar that I thought I could love, you know, to change. Love them so hard that they would change because if they loved me as much as I love them, they would do what I want them to do.
You did always like those project boys, didn't you?
Oh, yeah. Like that, boys?
I know you do. I know you do. And I'm grateful for that.
I did want to address something that I've noticed recently, too, that some recovering addicts say that it is harder to love and add it than it was to get sober. Wow. And that's kind of that's kind of powerful. Because we just love so fucking hard. And we're just like trying to give you our all we don't get it in return. But you can take your alcohol away and you can work on a program and better yourself and it's very personal for us. We love you so much. We can't just
get rid of you. It's so freakin
tricky. And I was messaging someone in the Tufo community today and I'm like, this, this business of being enmeshed with someone and addiction is so complicated. It's so complex, it's not just as easy as just take care of yourself and leave are just make the decision to go. It's like you can't help love, right? We were talking about love and like how that is something unique to humans and how you can you love someone and you want to talk about people saying that you have no control over your
addiction. Like you can't necessarily control who you love either. Like you can't, you can't help the fact that you love our children. You just you love them. Yeah, you can't just make that go away. When we talk about powerlessness. I think that love is a more I would argue love is more powerless, of an emotion than addiction ever was for me. So I can absolutely see that. Like, the way that you love somebody is it transcends everything. Yeah, it transcends
everything. You know, I believe in the power of love and I believe that there is something to that. And the way that codependence display it it's, it's the most beautiful thing and it's the most tragic thing in the world. Yeah. It really is like it's this business of dealing with a with an addict. It's like on one hand, we should everyone should hold space for you to say that I want you to be better than you are. And I wish you would just do the right
thing. And at the same time understanding that I can't make you do the right thing, like all those, those three thoughts are going on in your head all at the same time. How is that not confusing? You know, it is confusing, it is painful. And there's just not a whole lot of people advocating that these people have a voice. Yeah. And because at the end of the day, there's not a clean cut solution for it. It's like for alcoholics, you can you can work the 12 steps, a lot of people
recover because of it. And I know Al Anon exists, I know a ton of people find recovering Al Anon. But if you look at the numbers in AAA groups versus the numbers and Al Anon groups, they're not even close, they're not even close. There are many more accessible AAA groups all over the world. And there are Al Anon groups, which is striking to me, because behind every alcoholic is a family unit that was affected, that is also
suffering, right? So there's, you would think they'd be equal, if not more allanon groups, because for every one, like the addict can touch 25 people on average, that were affected by this addiction. Yeah, one person infects 25. Yet the numbers are so much smaller, and the other fellowship. And I don't think it's because it's like ineffective or whatever, I think that the, the conversation around what this really is, and what's going on is just confusing. And there's so much
of the heart involved. It's so complex, and it takes so much time to recover from an educate yourself on. It's really, really freaking difficult. So, uh, something that we were talking about, and perhaps a reason that this is so damn confusing is when I looked before I ever got sober. I knew what a happy life look like I knew what happy happily ever after look like,
for people in my shoes. Like I knew when addicts got sober what their life could look like, as Hollywood told me, so TV shows told me so books told me so they would, they would talk about this, this, you know, this triumphant story of this person that, you know, went to recovery, they hit rock bottom, they started working, and they got better. And then everything was happily ever after in life was beautiful. And that's just what it looked like. And so I'm like, okay, that's what it looks
like. But what does happily ever after look like for the partner? It's not really clear to anybody. No, it's not because it's, it's also split. There's a lot of people who don't make it out of this thing, right. And their happily ever after, looks like a journey of self empowerment and learning who they really are, and what really makes them happy. And they might spend years without anyone else in their life intimately as they
just focus on themselves. But then they come out of that way stronger, right, way stronger. For others. It's It's like our story, which is, We're the lucky ones. I think we worked through this together. And we there wasn't separately, together, but separately, and there's an element of luck there too. Like I've seen the stats, I'm not going to sit here and say that, like I just have all the answers. Shit. Maybe we just got lucky to a degree. I don't know.
I'm just grateful for it. Yeah, but that's another version of happily ever after. And then for some others, happily ever after. Looks like learning how to live with someone inactive addiction in the same home in the marriage. Yeah. And finding serenity in that storm. Right. So it's not so much clear what it what it looks like. And I think it's so individual it is. It is so too for counselors, therapists for groups to sit out here and talk about it. It's more about like, what are you
wants? I know, I think that everyone if you ask them that's like, I just want my freakin partner back.
Or yeah, I want them to stop using your drinking. Yeah, like we all know that that's not going to fix the problems.
Yeah, it's so I think that it's not quite defined. And then sometimes it's also unrealistic. I think that the story that Hollywood might sell about me and you would be unrealistic, because I don't think that's typical. Right? It's possible, but it's not typical. Right? So it's confusing to people. Right, right. Like you're almost preparing yourself for the wrong things. Yeah. When you're working through this,
can I tell you what recovery looks like for me? Yeah, please. So for me, it meant to build my self esteem, become empowered and be okay with or without you. At any time, you know, like, I love you to death, but not to death. That phrase like I love you so much, but there are boundaries, you know, like now I love myself enough to know what I that I've valued. Like, I mean, know, your
worth, I know my worth. Yeah, you know, you're what I think that is, that should can be for anybody in any of those situations,
right? That's a constant in any action that could be the cost
in any of them is that you love yourself enough to know your worth, and what your values are and how you deserve to be treated and what makes you happy and self care and, you know, there's so much that goes into Do it. But that's what the recovery of a spouse looks like. Because when you're in it, you don't have those things. You don't know what your values are, you don't have self worth. You're lower than low. So recovery for the spouse, that's what it is for me got a
question for you. I know you hate these on the scale, it's okay. Okay, but we did an episode back in January, I think where you gave us the account of your story from the, from the start to the finish right up to where we are today. For loving the addict to loving myself. Yeah, it's our most downloaded episode of All Time. By the way, it's great. If you haven't heard it, go back and listen to that one for sure. Yeah, excellent,
excellent. But some people find recovery through 12 Step programs, some do it through smart recovery, some do it through their church groups and some others on their own personal journeys, whatever that might look like. But how did you figure this out? And do you think you could have figured it out if I didn't ever get sober?
Ooh. I don't know. I don't know if I could have ever figured it out if you didn't get sober. Because a lot of why I would say about my recovery is like Frankenstein is you know how we had the freakin spirit. Put it all together. Yes, this is like a break in recovery. I didn't go to wood program that got me better. I did a lot of different things. I learned a lot from your recovery, because you would come home and tell me all different things of the Dow you know, Valley fighting my
spirituality. That was what I would have found that without you in your program.
I wouldn't have found it without a guy in the program either. Right? Right. And that's
been amazing. And then therapy for the therapy like that's been my oh therapy is amazing.
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self help books and then self care. So finding what brings me joy and taking care of myself physically, you know, working out dancing, eating whole foods, doing things that make me uncomfortable trying new things like all of that as part of my recovery, confidence building that goes with that. Yes, a lot of confidence
building that goes with that. So basically just building up my self esteem, and actually putting a lot of things aside a lot of things on the backburner and focusing on me like blinders,
you sort of had to force yourself to be selfish.
I did it. I don't think that's I don't think that's selfish.
I hate how selfish is like a bad I don't think it is the best way
selfish means something differently than what society has weighed selfish to be. And I haven't done the research on it. But I did learn in therapy many years ago, when I first started, she gave me a paper about the word selfish and it really opened my eyes to what it really means. And self care is not selfish, what we think in society, what selfish is is not what it is.
For you, what you are doing is not selfish, because
all I try to do is help you you will accept it.
Okay, something else is just on my mind. We talked about the disease concept of addiction and when that was developed, and how that really changed addiction treatment as a whole because they started to look at it not as a moral failing but as something that people need a treatment for. So right Other than locking everyone up in prison who had a drug or an alcohol problem, they opened up treatment centers and they felt different ways for them to recover, you know, the 12 steps
are still around. And still, I mean, the most effective form of treatment for, I guess, you know, addiction in general. But in a is essentially the same thing, Alcoholics Anonymous, but it also birth other movements. So, refuge recovery is a newer one that I just found out about that I think's awesome, smart recovery. Life ring, there's several others. There's there's tons of different ways to work it. Because science as a whole started to look at this thing and figure how can we tackle
this? And so I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist when it comes to medicine. I don't I don't, I don't get on conspiracy theories about anything else. But I do believe in the power of business and lobbyists. Yeah. So when I look at codependency, what are the symptoms of codependency? And why is this not looked at like a medical issue that can be treated with a combination of therapeutics, maybe medicines, maybe some
other things? Why have we not agreed on a course of treatment for this, and I think that it's, it's complex in its nature, and I understand that it's very complex, and it's very
individual. But I can't help but think about the stats that we we've gone through before where, you know, one addict can affect 25 people, and the chances of children of an alcoholic or an addict becoming addicts or alcoholics themselves, or engaging in some kind of self harm activity like, like cutting or eating disorders, or things like that. It's much higher than people who were in a control group who didn't deal with this. So this thing has far reaching
effects. Why is no one looking at this and saying, We've got to help these people. Think What's your theory? I would love so another summer for it. So I would love to see documentation and stats on rates of depression, obesity, self harm, suicide amongst partners and spouses of alcoholics and addicts, sometime after either separating or being in that relationship when no one's in recovery, and I would guess they are higher than a control group.
Yeah, like it's at people's interest to treat this stuff. But I don't know. Is it because they sell more pharmaceuticals like anti depression meds to people who haven't dealt with it? Yeah. Is it because it keeps people's pockets full? I don't know. But it makes no sense why addiction has been looked at this way. But this hasn't.
Yeah. Such a good point.
Like it just it's crazy. Your environment can cause issues like this. We've agreed on that. Everyone's agreed on that the environment can cause issues. Yes. And that some people aren't just born with depression, they develop it over time from trauma. Right. So why aren't we looking at this? Why is no one looking at this? I just I don't know. We're putting it out there. Yeah, maybe? And like, I don't know, one of my dreams in life is to run a study
on this stuff. Yeah. And to get insurance to start paying for this crap. Yeah. Pay for treatment. Well, I
get Yeah, cuz y'all get it paid for?
Yeah, they pay for ours, but they look at the spouse and be like, no, sorry, you're fine. You You made a decision. Like what do you have a moral failing? Just go back to the drawing board on that. So that's what that same old Wild I would that is a mission of mine in life before I die. I would love to be part of the group, the cause that changes that. Yeah, that would be huge, powerful. So let's talk about when people talk about the moral failing of
it all. And I think that we talked about, you know, why is this not discussed in Hollywood? Why are there no documentaries? We haven't talked about that yet. Oh, that was oh, that was before we cut. This is. This is part two.
We did actually cut edit. Well, we did edit.
I asked a question earlier about five minutes ago, and she just stared at me. Oh, you didn't? You did?
Because we were talking about something that I was like, wait, wait. Because that was a stupid thing.
So when we were on the documentaries about built up you and whatnot, and you were talking about Yeah, the whole point
of this was that I wanted to dive into some research on to why there aren't documentaries. Why are these families? Why are these not successful? Why are there really resources? You know, this is what I came up with? I actually asked some people on social media to give me their input on it. And then I did some research. So first, it's limited audience appeal. So what does that mean? So I make a new talk because I want to talk. I want to talk like ever really
what is this? This topic y'all I'm so passionate about like it is a cat it puts a flav it'd be like I could talk all day but like do this because documentaries
attract a wide audience in general, or they are so niche that they've got a following. So it might be like a cult following of some kind. Let's say you made a documentary about Dungeons and Dragons. People who love Dungeons and Dragons would certainly watch that and they're out there in numbers. Yeah. When it comes to addiction. It's not just addicts watching these things. I would guess that Less addicts are watching him. It's more about people who love stories of triumph over
adversity. Just like the documentary I watched on the people that ran the marathons. I don't run at all I don't run with I'm being chased by a bear. Yeah, but I watched because it was like this awesome story about this thing. So when it comes to codependency limited audience appeal in the sense that since we don't know what happily ever happily ever after looks like, what story do you tell? And how do you make that appealing? Does that make sense? Yeah.
So So can I do that? How I described it in the other episode. Thank you. Because obviously, I was way off. So
I think that there are certain networks that do specialize and things like that. And people will rag on like, Hallmark channel and like lifetime a lot. But dude, great, I love it. lifetime love it. Like they're great stories on there, man. I've sat down with you and like what's on TV? And like, what do you watch it? And you'd like some movie on Lifetime, whatever
daughters, David came from a Lifetime movie,
boom, there you go. We love the channel. But networks like that. But you know, maybe it ends up on something like that. But as far as a wider audience, someone who has dealt with this a celebrity someone of note has not come out and told their story yet. They haven't come out and told their story and made others interested because here's the fact is that more people deal with this than they deal with addiction. Yeah,
that's a fact. Yes, it is. If one addict affects 25 people, there are 25 times the amount of people who deal with this than deal with actual addiction in itself. Yeah, it's just not as sexy of a story because it hasn't been told yet in a way that resonates with people. Oh, and I hope that we do that. Hell yes, I hope that we do go. Another thing is stigma and
privacy concerns. It's another reason that it's just not out there, we think and that we talked about the stigma related to this and how it's sort of looked at as a moral failing. And I think that that is true. It's like addiction was once accompanied with this major social stigma. But that's sort of been alleviated, like tattoos used to be the same way. Now, everyone's got two tattoos, your doctor might have tattoos, the guy that runs finance at your company probably has a sleeve of
some kind. Yeah, yeah, it's just out there. It's becoming more and more accepted. This is a conversation people still aren't having. And it's one that some people are probably uncomfortable having, because they would be the only one saying it. Yeah, you know, so it's just not as many people willing to speak about it. And then I think you should talk about the next one, the sensitivity.
Oh, well, it would be really hard. Because it's, we're, it's deeply personal and emotional for us. And filming these kinds of stories would be really challenging for people to, you know, interview us because you have to come in with respect and empathy and really talk to us in a manner that is it's so direct, because we're sensitive. We've been beat up, you know, like,
don't have some general right, you
don't come at me with your blood. bluntness, you know, come at me with more compassion. You're
asked why didn't just leave them? Right, right, right, dude. Right. I should just choke you.
Right? Yeah. Don't come out. Don't we're scared to be judged. You know, we're judged by everybody. So come come at this with compassion. And it might be better. But a lot of filmmakers, we don't know how to do that.
Yeah. And then the other ones we came up with, were sort of like a hodgepodge of like, a lack of access, because so many people aren't talking about it. Yeah. You know, think about going out on a, on a weekend trip with the girlfriends, right? Maybe five or six of you, you know, maybe one of them. The other ones you kind of know by proxy because your kids or go to the same school, whatever. They all sit down the talking about life and things like that. They're probably not talking
about this man. And you would feel like you were on an island by yourself.
Yeah, I definitely do bring it up there. I've had many people who bring it up with their friends. And they don't like to talk about it anymore. Because they don't understand them at all.
Yeah, it's just hard to relate if you have been there before. Yeah. And then a misunderstanding or misrepresentation I think is, you know, kind of along the same lines, that if you if you haven't been there, and you don't know what it's like, and you're in it, it's difficult to articulate as well, to really explain what this is like,
right? It's like this forgotten syndrome and this forgotten partner, it's, it's tough to, to, I think, portray that in a way that that pays respect and homage to those that suffer with this and deal with this. You know, the last thing I wanted to cover is this concept of loyalty to a fault. And where that comes from. And we talked about love being a primary driver of a lot
of this, right. But there are some people that I have spoken with and that you've interacted with as well, who will tell you in so many words that like they can't stand their spouse, and they haven't wanted to be married for a very long time. But they're together because they're loyal, right? They're just oil to a fault in some ways. And till the wheels fall off is like our battle cry for it was our thing. This is our thing, right? That's the name of
our story. Yeah. But I think that you can apply that in so many different ways. Like I love for people to apply that in the in the realm of self development and to say like I'm never giving up on on, I'm never going to be a finished product. I'm always going to be a work in progress. I will keep working till the wheels fall off. Yep. But I think people will hear that and think that that's the only right
answer to things like this. And it's like, I'm just not given up period right at the detriment of themselves and their children. And then they feel shame for that. You know, it's like God, man, like, I just want to give you a hug. Like, there's no shame in this game, right? There's no shame in that. I feel shame for wanting to stick by somebody. Yeah, it just comes to a point where you have to ask yourself like, what am I costing
myself? Exactly? What am I costing myself every time I go back, or I enable or I do this or that, you know? Yeah, that's, that's the most difficult part. Yeah. So what's the actual cost of that, than the opportunity cost of that? So what are you not able to do with your life because you were doing the other thing instead, like the opportunity cost of codependency
is massive. And that's eventually what gets people to a point where they either figure out a way to work through recovery with their partner, or they decide, You know what, I can't do this for the rest of my life. Right? I just can't. Yeah, like, I'm not gonna sit around here. Watch you kill yourself. I can't I love you. But I cannot do powerful because I have a life to like, life is not a dress rehearsal. Like there's no reset button can just start over
tomorrow. Like before you know it, you'll be, you know, in your 60s or 70s. Wondering where the hell the time went. Yeah, that happens. Yeah,
I got a great scene.
I got a great beard, man. Like I was tweeting yesterday. Yeah, it happens quick. Crap goes by fast.
So true. So anyway, did I talk about the vulnerable part in this episode? I don't think so. run us through it. Where I said that. You know, it's very, we're stigma to this. And we don't talk. Hold on, let me think about this. We try to be vulnerable in our marriage.
Oh, yeah. This was a good one. Did I say this in here? Just go ahead. Run it.
Okay. So we try to be vulnerable in our marriage, but we get shit on by the addict, right? Like, we over and over again, we try to be vulnerable. So why are we how
you feel? And I will tell you that stupid? Yes, you shouldn't feel that way. Yes, Dom here's why it's wrong
or blame, you know, victim blame, all that so much crap. So why would we want to expose ourselves? Or why would we want to be vulnerable somewhere else in other territories? So we're so scared of that backlash? I really don't know if we discussed this or this. So I don't think I apologize if we doubled this.
So here's what happened. We started recording this. We just said that. Well, I just want to make it super clear in case someone's listening on this idiots.
We will recordings. Why we don't do this. We have to get wood shot. Yeah, we
don't really edit or anything. So we were talking. And then there was some stuff there was we we make notes and we print out copies. And she gave me the copy. And there was a huge section she's asked out and didn't want to cover but we didn't discuss it first. So I started covering it. She just looks at me like I'm an idiot. I'm sorry. She's like, dude,
turn it off. My mind dammit.
But anyway, what she had this awesome. It's awesome take on vulnerability and how you're essentially trained throughout the course of marriage in your relationship, that it's not okay to be vulnerable. And in fact, you should just avoid that
altogether. Yeah. So when it comes time for you to recover and work through this stuff, it's really tough to be story and I just want to shout out every person that has messaged us left a comment, who has posted in the community and has shared the deepest, darkest part of your closet with us like that vulnerability. Man, that's powerful.
It is powerful. And it is healing for you.
It is it's beautiful. It is appreciated. Others see it. I know it
sucks. But damn, it's, it's huge for you to get it out there.
Yeah, some people are just willing to stand up there and be like, Yeah, this is what I'm going through. And it's so hard to do. And for those of you that aren't there yet, not criticize. Okay, totally. Okay, understand why, why it's not comfortable to talk about, and I totally get it. Especially on social media, you know, it's like, you've got a picture of your family, like from the fall photo shoot, and
everyone's all happy. And then you're talking about, like, what's really going on, which is kind of like this dichotomy of this life that we live. It's like this life that we want everyone to see. And then we have the actual life behind closed doors, and it looks nothing like the photos that we present. You know, I used to say all the time when I was like, newly sober that like, Oh, I was around. Yeah, I made sure that I was in the Facebook photo. So it looked like I was a present
father and a present husband. I would I'd be there and smile.
And then I and then I was off to the races yep I can fake anything in a photo yeah you know but what I see when I see these photos primarily from women men as well but I see is like this is what is being stolen from them and I think they have every right in the world to be destroyed and hurt and hold space for them while they're angry about this yeah I'm resentful yes like this is it's okay to feel that way it is okay man it is thing has ripped
your family apart. Okay? Yes it is it love every one of you.
But do not put all that hate it blame it to other people either. Like we there's a process to this right. It is okay for you to feel this way. Give yourself space and time.
It's such a process. I think it's one that's measured. We can help Yeah,
and but we can help guide you through that. You know, he league to get through it.
Yeah, we'll keep we'll keep bringing our story. We'll keep bringing the content. We'll keep doing the research. We'll keep putting stuff out there. And we are working on some really, really cool stuff behind the scenes that we hope to present to you guys this fall. Yeah. In an effort to help as many people as possible on a scale, so I can't wait. I'm sorry. She's yawning. I think I'm loose. Did you take NyQuil again? On the Nyquil.
I've got it. I'll take it around night. 30. Close another Nyquil. Oh my gosh. Okay. See, Matt used to be the guy who chugged the DayQuil. And I'm the one who has the little measuring cup, making sure it's perfectly 30 This weird, man. He's like, go, go, go.
I don't mess with that crap. Unless I have to. And to this day, I still won't drink the stuff with the alcohol in it.
I know. But that's just how it used to be those. Oh, yeah, I
used to just take this stuff to the straight to the dome and take it down. Yeah, it tastes like crap. I'm gonna want to enjoy it. But liquor did, too.
I want you partners to have a voice. Y'all speak up when you can or just know that you're not alone.
Yeah, this this episode was constructed by Paige, this is something that she's been on for she'd been on, you've been on a tear with this for four or five days now feel like, I mean, just really, really in it. And she really wanted everyone to have this message, this voice out there that you matter, you matter? Yep. All right, well, um, we've mentioned it before, but we haven't mentioned it for a bit now. But we are part of a foundation called the counseling
for the Future Foundation. And the counseling for the Future Foundation is raising money to put therapists would be therapists through school debt free. So many, many therapists are out there, working their butt off in school working two jobs. And then they graduate with a ton of student debt. And then they go to be an associate in their field, which they have to do is mandatory, and they're unable to make ends meet. So a lot of them end up leaving the field because the student debt
just paralyzes their budget. So the counseling for the Future Foundation is working to change that we have actually just graduated our very first therapist debt free. That's so awesome. So we have a website counseling futures.org, where you can go and donate in any amount is fine. If you have a penny to give a penny would be appreciated. Literally every dollar that you donate goes straight to the scholarship. We don't have any administrative
fees. We are all volunteers. No one on the board gets paid for anything. This is truly an altruistic movement to help people get into the field so that whenever you need help, when you pick up the phone, there's a therapist there because there just aren't enough to meet demand. The stats are out there. You can read them. They're on the website. This is all factual. I'm not trying to skip you for a penny. This is us
trying to help people. So if you haven't checked out counseling for Future Foundation, please head over the website and check that out. It's also available on our website. Yeah. Okay. I think that's all we've got for this time. Are we going to be back Friday?
I don't know. Are we? Maybe Oh, you're making me talk again.
If we get enough people saying they want to Friday episode this week, we will dump a Friday episode, let us know. Okay, thank you to everyone who has interacted with us. If you've just found us. Welcome. If you've been with us for a while. Thank you so much for your support, and we'll keep bringing it. Until next time I am Matt. I will see you