reactive abuse isn't necessarily abuse, let's not even really call it abuse. Let's call it what it is self defense. It's a defense mechanism. Yes. So quick analogy because I'm an analogy band of kids getting bullied on the bus every single day. He's getting stuff stolen from him, he's getting pushed down. He's getting made fun of he's getting hit. You name it. When that kid fights back to we call that kid an abuser. Welcome back, well come back to another episode until the wheels fall
off, man. And thank you, if you are new here, because of our last episode, our last episode was a message from me to people still struggling with addiction. And I was really worried about how that would come off and how it be received. But we heard from a lot of people that was incredibly helpful, and that I love hearing from people that it was helpful. I haven't heard from anyone yet that it was
damaging. So that's great. But it's always like this fear of me, it's like, we have a responsibility as creators, and we put the stuff out there, that something could come back that was not intended. But it sounds like for all intents and purposes, this landed exactly how it should have, which is great. It's a really tough topic to cover when you're talking with someone who's in early addiction or in early sobriety
or inactive addiction. But me having been there before I did my best to try to reach people where they're at, and also being firm and challenging them on some of the stuff that we would like for our partners to think is true. That's really not. There will be a part two to that. I don't know exactly when but we are planning that. And it deals more with the validation and accountability component. I didn't want to have everyone drinking through a firehose with one giant episode about that.
Yeah. So I think in two parts is probably more helpful. Let's tackle the most immediate stuff first, and then we'll get to some of the some of this other stuff. So thank you, if you're new, thank you, if you responded back out with feedback. That's why we love hearing from people. And speaking of if you're not already in our Facebook group, we have a free Facebook community called Tufo community.
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it's awesome. But anyway, today's topic is reactive abuse, reactive abuse. This is page. This was an episode that you had wanted to put it out quite some time ago. Yes. But we have several others that like we prioritize. And so this is this has been, this has been your baby.
Yeah, I have actually worked with some people, some amazing people who have questioned their part of abuse when it comes to a toxic relationship, or in a relationship with an addict or alcoholic or even a narcissist. So this can go in all different.
Yeah, this hits a lot of different areas. Yes, yeah.
So as a partner of an addict or alcoholic, do you question your part when it comes to abuse? I know I did.
And so when you say question my part, meaning were you ugly to them? Were you abusive,
right? Was I abusive? That's the question. That's the part that I would question like, oh, my gosh, because we hear these things all the time about what abuse is. Yeah. And, you know, did I do that? Am I an abusive person, because I would lash out, I would yell, I would call you names. I would throw things across the room. I don't know if I ever threw things that you but I wanted to. I know that. But I knew that all of this was out of character for me. Like I didn't like fighting.
I didn't want to be angry. I didn't want to lash out. But come to find out my lashing out is something that's called reactive abuse or reactive defense, which is a better term for it, I think. Yes. So I actually got that information from a website that I'll bring up in just a minute. Because it had a lot of just gems in it that really helped me open my eyes to how I reacted in our relationship. And I think a lot of people that listen to us are
going to relate to this. And I'm hoping that you come away with less guilt with how you feel. Because I felt guilty for a lot of the times. Yes, I have a part in that. And I have, you know, owned that part and taken accountability, but there are reasons why I reacted the way I reacted.
salutely There are Yeah, reactive abuse isn't necessarily abused. Let's not even really call it abuse. Let's call it what it is self defense. It's a defense mechanism. Yes. So quick analogy because I'm an analogy ban. A kids getting bullied on the bus every single day. He's getting stuff stolen from him. He's getting pushed down. He's getting made fun off, he's getting hit. You name it, when that kid fights back. So we call that kid an abuser.
No, but there are a lot of schools that say that there's zero tolerance rules, and they get in trouble for it. So
your tolerance rules are just an easy way to not have to look at situations. Alright, I got opinions about your kids.
I'm just throwing that out there. I'm just it's it's a
process. It doesn't mean it's correct. But But No, that's true. We don't. We don't call that kid the abuser. Everyone will look at that and say he stood up for himself, he finally stood up for himself. Now. The moral question, is it right to fight back? Is it right to hit? Is it right to do anything? Philosophically, we can get into that some other time. But strictly speaking, when someone reacts in defense, we even have laws that protect those people, their laws for self defense.
Yeah. When it comes to relationship, though these things become muddy, really muddy, especially when you're, you're saying that you're questioning your own sanity every day, if you're in a relationship with an alcoholic or an addict. Like am I am I to blame here? Was he right? When he said that? I'm the reason he does this? If I was less nagging? Would it mean that he drinks last? Like you question everything you do, which is part of what causes the lack of self esteem and a lack of empowerment
in these relationships. allanon We'll call something like this codependency, which is term that we've never loved by any means. Still doesn't make sense to me, in my mind. But anyway, this is where a lot of this stuff comes from. This is just another another vein and that same topic. Yeah. So walk us through situations or okay, what is Yeah,
yeah. So according to experts, it is rare in an intimate relationship that there are two abusers. So sometimes I'll call that mutual abuse. And that's when you would think like, Oh, my abuser, and he's the abuser. We're just both abusers are just toxic or bad for each other. Not necessarily true. That's very rare. It's usually there's an abuser and a victim. And this is really confusing for us, because I questioned myself all the time, just like you said, like, am I
wrong? Am I abusive? Am I starting these unhealthy patterns of reaction, rational, empathetic person? Am I the crazy one, you know, so the website is the men project.com. And reactive abuse is when a victim has been in a toxic relationship for a while, and they begin defending themselves against emotionally violent attacks. So this happens, like when we push yell rage have angry outbursts, things, throw things, call people names. This is self defense. It happens when it happens when we hit our
breaking point. So we will hit a point where it's just like, we have no choice but to react. Yeah. So and it's typically out of character for us, which makes us feel really confused by our own responses. It's a defense mechanism, but it rarely saves us from the harm. Yeah, and the thing that's crazy about
it, yeah, it actually it makes it worse. And we'll get into why here in a moment. But yeah, I think that anyone, like I've seen this in relationships, even when there's not alcohol, or drugs when you just got an abusive person. And it's certainly the woman will say, we were just we were just toxic together. We were just we were bad for each other. Well, if you really back up and look at what's happening is that you've got someone who's incredibly
emotionally abusive. Someone who will lash out and uncharacteristic ways defending themselves, and then look way too hard at their part in that Yes, wait, that's not to say you shouldn't look at your pardon things right. I'm a believer in that. But looking way too hard at it and and completely disregarding the other person's why you ended up there, like the context matters here. Yeah, the context absolutely matters. And the context is, generally, you've been backed into a
corner. You've been told you're crazy. You've been emotionally abused, sometimes physically abused. And then at some point, you reach a breaking point, like Paige mentioned, and you just snap, and you just snap. It's like, you just start seeing red. And anything that happens after that point, is an involuntary it's an involuntary self defense mechanism. Yep. And I think that's a lot of the time these genuinely empathetic, caring people will, after the fact can feel incredibly guilty and be
like, Man, I'm abusive. I caused that. And abusers I can speak from an abusive standpoint. We love it when y'all do that. Yeah. Yeah, it's a sick thing. But it's true. Because now it's not all on me. Now, I've got you right where I want you
right. So because the Okay, so what is abuse? Just in general?
Yeah. What's abuse? I would define it as an attempt to gain control over somebody.
Okay. Or to gain benefit from something? Yeah, improperly. Right, right. Yeah. So, addicts typically abused to gain their drug of choice or just to control the situation the relation or control the situation or the relation You get that there is yeah, it's
controlling the situation and that person in particular, so that you can, you don't you don't want them to close to what you're doing because that means that they're going to tell you that's bad. You need to stop this. Addicts often call this nagging quote unquote nagging, you want this person distant from that part of your life. And so you will use tactics like gaslighting, lying, cheating, diversion tactics, turning it around, you know, stuff like
this. In order to do that, the more I have you concerned about yourself or something else, the more I can do what I need to do, right.
So that's the mindset of an abuser. I didn't ever think that way.
No, who Why would you react? How
would you react of abuse comes from the place of defense? Yeah. So it's, it's you're fighting back in a dangerous situation. So it's not to treat somebody poorly, just to gain benefits? No, that's how you know that you're not the abuser in the relationship.
Yes, that's fact. Here's, that's one part. Here's where someone will hear that though. And go well, hang on, though. As you're lashing out at someone aren't, aren't you in some way trying to regain control over that situation? Help them see in an effort to get them to see your perspective. Like some people think that deep about this stuff? Well, I
mean, you kind of can, but most some of these things are not even. It's not voluntary.
Right? It's out of character for you. Yeah. Truly out of character. You You don't throw things you don't snap. I mean, you're, you're loud. But you're not. You're not generally screaming curse words at me, not an abusive person. No, you're not. Not at all. incredibly caring, compassionate, vulnerable person. But when these things happen that are out of character, you can typically look at that and say, okay, like, I'm not trying to control anyone. This isn't a typical
behavior. For me. This was like a one off where I just flew off the handle. And it happens every time XYZ happens. Yes. So there's a trigger for it.
Right? And so you're on high alert. And these triggers happen in our brains actually release a stress hormone. And it's the fight freeze or flight response. And sometimes we respond and is even like a shock to us more than it is you because it's out of character. And I know that I feel like when I responded in that way, it doesn't align with my values. And I immediately feel regret. I feel guilty. I feel as though I truly effed up and I need to
make amends. Yeah. And this is because the reactions can happen without warning.
It just happens like, pop, there it goes. And like you'll even know it what you've just done. Yeah. Like, think about if anyone grew up with siblings, having an older sibling that bullies you. My older brother did this to me all the freaking time. When we were like middle
school age. Yeah, he would run into, okay, we'd get off the bus the same time my parents weren't home, he would run inside, he would beat me off the bus, like like, literally often on feet, beat me into the house, lock the door, and then make me bang on the door for 1015 minutes or more before he left me in the house. And it was frustrating and drove me crazy. And I was smaller than him. I was, you know, two years a year and a half younger. And there was one day where I guess I'd had a bad
day at school. I don't know, but I was really hurt by everything. And when he opened that door, I don't know what happened. I snapped. And I mean, someone asked weapon to end all ass weapons. I mean, I lost my mind on Him. And then when he was on the ground screaming Stop, stop, stop. I like came to and I'm like, oh my god, like I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And then he gets up. I see the look in his eyes. And it's like, oh. I took out running and my mom had
these old like antique chairs. I stuck a chair in between the two of us. I'm like, No, we can talk this out way, way way. His foot went right through that chair, man. And I'm like, Oh, now we got bigger problems. We're both in trouble now. Yeah, I took off to my room lock the door. Mike jumped under the covers and he's banging on the door. But that was an instance of reactive abuse. So yeah, just snapped. I couldn't tell you what happened. I wasn't like an angry kid. I
wasn't a fighter. But you do it enough times that somebody's gonna react. I was acting in self defense. Absolutely. But you know what he told my mom, just the opposite. Oh, yeah. I'm a bully. I snapped. I beat him up for no reason on his part. No. So this like, this goes way back in life. Like it doesn't it's not unique to your life right now. But there are instances like this throughout your life. Oh my gosh, that's funny. That's shared, never recovered, glued back together.
And it was never the same.
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I had just talked about the fight freeze or flight response. And I'm going to kind of share an example like in our relationship, or what I would typically do my response to defend myself, like I said, was yelling or whatever. But there were also times when I would freeze. And it used to really irritate you because I wouldn't talk. I couldn't talk. It's like I needed to protect myself by freezing.
Yeah, yeah. You tend to do that you would freeze you would just kind of jam up and sit there and just like,
right, because I guess because if I were to speak, it would have caused even more problems and all you were
giving me fuel if you were to speak, you know what I would do? Yeah, exactly. I would turn around out and I would use it against you. Yep. And then
the fleeing response is when you, you literally walk away. Yeah. And I do, too. There are times when I'm just like, I I just walk away I walk out of the room I just which we tell people to do a lot if you feel like you are in a relationship or in a situation that is especially dangerous. Yes, walk away. It's okay. It's alright. Um, but I wanted to there was this other episode, we do
the fight, you would do fight sometimes. So you come at me like a spider monkey?
Oh, yeah, I sure did. A monkey. Yeah. But let's think about now that we are in a healthy relationship where we communicate in a healthy way. And like, we don't have these problems anymore. I mean, sometimes I will there. When I started therapy, it was like, within two years of my therapy, I was still having triggers. So Matt had been sober for already seven, eight years. And I would still have anger outburst, I would still have these triggers. And it just happened. It's like
I had no control over it. And I had to learn to deal with that in therapy. Yeah. So I found an another example online, that I thought was really interesting about reactive abuse that might relate to others. So perhaps a woman reacts to your two years of her husband's abuse by hitting him or she screams at him calls him names or slaps him. I think I've slapped you before. Probably yeah. When the police respond to the domestic violence call her abuser will be calm, and sadly tell them She
assaulted him. She will admit she hit him apologize and try to explain inside she doesn't know how to explain because she probably doesn't understand why she reacted that way. The police may see her as the abuser or one of two abusers typical right there. Rather than getting the help she needs, she will take all of the blame for reacting to months or years of physical, psychological or sexual abuse.
And that's tough. And as I understand it, first responders are trained to a degree to identify this type of thing. But some abusers are good, like when I'm by good is that they're really good at manipulating and lying and putting on the show. A lot of times law enforcement are just left with it's like, Listen, if there's a assault and battery, we just gotta take
people in. Yeah, they just they don't want the liability of leaving someone there who you know, was what do they say a wolf in sheep's clothing, right? Like this guy seems fine. But if he's actually not, and we leave him here, that can be dangerous for everyone. Yeah, so they just take everyone in. But a lot of the times this stuff gets pushed under the rug, because we have this black and white view that
abuses abuse. Now, I've even said that abuse is abuse, but within the context of abuse from an addicted person, even though they have a disease is still abuse. I firmly believe that. But I don't believe that self defense is abuse, right? It's self defense battery sometimes. Yeah. But is it abuse? No. Abuse is like we said, it's to gain an upper hand to gain a form of control over somebody else. That's what abusers are ultimately trying to do. You are
not trying to do that. When you defend yourself when you snap when you've been called the B word for the 15th time that day, are called fat or ugly, or any of these incredibly hurtful things in front of other people, eventually, everyone has a breaking point psychologically, we all have a breaking point. And when we lash back out, it breaks my heart that people feel guilty for that. Yeah. But
that's human nature. I think the nature of an empathetic introspective person is they're always gonna look within and be like, Man, where was what did I screw up here? What was my part in this? And then you feel indebted to your abuser, suddenly, you start to look back outward and be like, well, I called I must have caused these things in them. They're not all that bad, because I'm just as bad. No, you're not. You're not it's okay.
Right. So why does reactive abuse not actually help us? What do you mean? So wow, whenever we react Oh, how does it not help us? Like we feel because it is a defense mechanism. We're trying to protect ourselves, you know, we're trying to do things to to survive. Yeah, but in reality,
it makes the abuse worse. It does because the abuser they typically with their their partner feel a fire they want to fight they want you to become a hot mess so they can blame you for being unstable, uncontrollable and abusive. They'll go the links of you know, grabbing proof via emails, texts, voicemails videos, just to show how abusive you
are. Yeah, reactive abuse generally, is what shouldn't say even generally, but a lot of the time it is what the abusive person wants. And I can speak for this firsthand let's go back down memory lane and let's let's sort of let's let's hop into my my abusive brain my you know, brain prior to years and years of therapy and addiction hard work. Yeah, an active addiction. Okay. When when you would freak out. I would sit there calm. LeighAnn act so shocked like, oh my god, I can't believe you're
acting this way. But on the inside, I'm like grinning like a Cheshire Cat. I'm like, I got you right where I want you. Because now, I know you are going to look at this and be like, I cannot believe I treated you that way. I can't believe I said those things to you. And I would not eat that crap up. I'm like, oh, yeah, that was, you know, I can't believe you would do that to me treat me that way. I would leave you feeling indebted to me. So that you would leave me alone long
enough. So I could keep running my game. So I could keep going by and drugs so I could keep neglecting the responsibilities around the home so I could keep neglecting your emotional needs. All those things like it's what the abuser typically wants is whenever you do this, they're going to use it against you. Yeah, and I've got experience with this, not from you from other people that I've known who
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narcissistic abuse. And it's not by coincidence, these things feel the same to the abuse to the victim victim, the abusers have a lot of the same mechanisms, right, the gaslighting, the flipping things around the the manipulation tactics, all that stuff feels very, very similar. So when we're talking about these things, sort of like interchangeably, I've dealt with someone who was just incredibly emotionally abusive. I would stay incredibly calm all the
time. And like, listen, I know this game, dude, I'm not going to give you what you want. But then they would say something incredibly hurtful or like cut really deep or go somewhere they shouldn't. And I'd snap back with an ugly email or text message or something like that. And that person has told me to this day they have every email and every text message that I've ever sent them where I was ugly. In defense. Yeah. But that's not how it would be used against me.
It would be used in a way that shows like, Listen, this person is unstable. They are crazy. They threatened me, they do all with no context whatsoever. They just picked up these little pieces of everything never mentioned in what they've done. And that's what abusive people will do with this. Yeah. So the benefit of there's no benefit whatsoever to doing it.
There's so much energy that goes into that I just can't imagine oh man, if
you've got a person that saves text messages and emails run, like that is a sure sign this person has wheels. But I
will say no, that I do tell people to write down instances that happen for you to look at, you know, the patterns within your rotation for the victim. It's helpful for the victim, but it's not helpful to show for the other person and be like, Look, this is what you're not given this to like given to not punish them. It is literally for yourself. I just had to
throw that in there. No, because it is when you've been abused for a very long time. We can we can normalize dysfunction and incredibly easy. It's almost scary. Yeah, how well we can normalize dysfunctional situations. So true. So we've encouraged people at times, whenever we identify dysfunction, it's something that we've been through as well. It's like, Oh, I've been there before. You should try to
writing this stuff down. So you don't forget it because it's really easy to normalize it and forget about the you know, like all the times they were coming home with the scent of perfume on them. I don't know, just as an example. Yeah. Like, let's, let's put the pieces together here and let's look at what's really good. Let's construct an actual view of what's happening. abusive people are looking to take this out of context to use against you, right? We're not trying to identify patterns,
right? They're literally trying to be manipulative with it. They're sick. They're sick people just blows my mind. Oh, it's frustrating man.
So, another part of where you kind of get stuck into this dynamic is that your partner like the abuser will tell you that you need help. Oh, yeah. And then that'll increase our own our sense of self doubt. And it makes us question our own sanity. And then when that happens, we become even more dependent on you. Because we are like, Oh, my gosh, maybe we are wrong. Maybe this maybe our
partner is right. We've convinced you You've convinced us that we're the crazy one and that we are the your only way to salvation, and I'm sure so I would easily be like, okay, you know, maybe I do need help. I need to go. But if it were, if it was turned, and I would say, you need help, I guarantee you, you'd have been like, No, I don't need help. I'm doing fine. You need help. You need help. Exactly. So it's like, oh, my gosh,
oh, another red flag. If you've ever told someone that they that they're abusive, and they call you the narcissist or they call you the abuser, that's a red flag. That's a red flag that they are exactly what you just said is no one gets more offensive than a narcissist. Who is denying something they definitely did. Yep, they get so defensive so quickly.
Yeah, that's what I was gonna like this next bullet point was going to be accountability.
Yeah, you know what screw about what you just talked about, when ever, I would tell you like, you need help. Like, you lash out, like your emotions have gotten too big like, This is getting dangerous. I would say things like that, too, to make you leave me alone. And what I didn't realize like, like, to be honest, I didn't know how bad this would get for you. And like it. I don't want to get emotional about it's hard for me to think about. But I didn't know how bad this would
get. I didn't know how deep the effects would go. Like in that moment, I just needed you to leave me alone. I didn't realize how bad this would get like, doesn't excuse the fact that I did it. And it shouldn't relinquish me from responsibility. But I live with
that every single day. But the really screwed up part about putting someone in a position where you've convinced them that within your relationship that they are crazy, they start to question themselves, all the the self doubt creeps in, their competence disappears. And now they are somewhat stuck with you because now they're emotionally dependent on you for validation. If this person says that I'm crazy, and I believe them, they're the only ones who can
tell me that I'm not crazy. So they've got you where they want you now you're in this cycle where you are seeking validation from a person that wants you to stay sick, like they feed you just enough to keep you around, and it will keep you sick for years and years and years. It's like yes, you are damaged and I am your only way to salvation only through me and and through making me happy and pleasing me. Are you able to feel good about yourself how sick that is. But
that's what happens here. It's crazy. I'm just I'm so grateful that you're you found a way out, not found a way out. And we're here today and we're extremely lucky. But holy hell, I'm
glad that you put that out there. Because you're saying that, you know, because all you cared about was getting your fix, right? That was a thing. Like that's all and so you didn't realize the damage that you were doing? And that's why we're doing what we're doing. That's why we're here. That's why Tufo is here. Yes, is to bring awareness out there that you getting your fix. And you just getting your drug and you're lying to your partner is doing a lot more,
not just for thoughts. It's not just that Yeah, and that's
and I'm not trying to shame anybody. This is reality, this is
what actually happens. This is the stuff that you don't realize when you're in it. And this is why, like when I work with people in recovery, like fresh out of treatment, they're not really understanding how badly they've damaged anybody. Yeah, they're like, and I've even talked to people and I think I said this early on, it's like, I didn't really hurt anybody other than myself. Like, how selfish is that? Right? I
only hurt myself. I was the one getting high my livers, the one that took the hit like, you know, yeah, certainly, I was maybe rude to my wife sometimes. But you don't realize how subversive some of this behavior is, and how badly you can eff up someone's self esteem, and their self worth, and their competence and all that stuff that goes with it. Because they trust you, they believe you, they want to believe in you. Like you've taken advantage of that you have destroyed something so important
to them. You broken their trust in their self. And I didn't realize I was doing that I really didn't and I'm pretty damn sure that no one does. You don't realize it you're just you're so you have tunnel vision over your next fix and what you want. And you'll say or do basically anything to get there without understanding like really thinking through okay, if I say this, what are the
ramifications of it? So a lot of people when they're freshly sober, like as we're sitting down working through stuff, and like so tell me tell me about the mature life like what's going on? What's good, what's bad. They never talk about stuff like this ever, ever. I'm the one who usually brings it to their attention but not right then we have to get some stuff
out of the way first. And then once we get to that point where it's like, okay, so let's look at your family and look at your relationships and we start to work through this stuff. And it's only then that you see like, their mind just blow like, like, oh my god, I never realized this It's not it's not an excuse, it's not a cop out. I encourage everyone who's in recovery to own this stuff. 100% doesn't matter if you didn't realize you were doing it, you
did it. And now you've got a partner with PTSD and self worth issues and a problem with competence and empowerment because of this. And you have to own that. And you have to do what you have to do to make that right within them as well. Part of it's just validating and holding yourself accountable. That is the you know, that's the biggest uphill battle. But yeah, like, we don't realize we're
doing it. But I was abusive in the sense that I was absolutely trying to gain control, so that I can get you to act how I needed you to act, which was basically just leaving me alone. Like, get off my bike. You were a detective who was kind of getting on the trail, like you were getting hot on the case. And I needed to, I need you to go like, you know, over there. Investigate that guy. Leave me alone. I'm busy over here. Yeah. That makes sense. Yes. What's up next? Okay,
I was just kind of the last part.
Well, PTSD is in here. It's mentioned. Yeah, the actual effects of this thing.
Yeah, I mean, it happens whenever we don't know that we're being abused most of the time, like you just said, and it's, the longer the abuse happens, because our stress hormone is going to be released over and over and over again, fires up, it's gonna get fired up. So we're going to react more and more, you know, out that's out of character, physical stuff that happens. Yes, yes. Like it can affect your immune system, like you stress
is terrible for your body. Yeah, I was reading about this the other day, like, the effects of stress on your long term health and just lifespan in general. Stress is terrible. It is worse than like sugar and smoking. And maybe even drinking like this stuff is terrible for you, right? Being in these relationships literally has effects on you. Yeah.
So how do you know for sure if you aren't the abuser? If you're asking that question and wondering it at all, that is a great sign that you are not
listening to this. Chances are you're not
just like Matt said, when you call a narcissist, narcissist, and they blew up and denied and call you a narcissist, then and if you're, you know, questioning your reactions, chances are you're reacting to defend yourself, you know, most of the time, the problems within this relationship are caused by the addict or alcoholic, not necessarily you. And we can say this from the other side. Because since you've been sober, and since I have worked on my healing process, we don't have
these problems anymore. We don't there. Like I said, I do react occasionally. I'm still six years in to this. And I still do have some moments of, like, outbursts, I guess you could say. But I acknowledge them immediately. And I correct them and we discuss it and we move forward from it. And we're both very supportive on it. But I never hold it over your head. No, you don't. And I'm extremely grateful for that. But it does linger. It lingers, because I was in survival mode for so long.
Yeah, man. And that's something anytime someone approaches us or send us a DM, I want people to know that this is a process. And when we say process, I think years, not one conversation, or a month or 90 days, like you can start don't get me wrong, you can make progress in a conversation, you can make progress in 90 days. But to really look back over the course of time, this stuff takes years, you're unlearning behaviors that took years to learn. They can't be unlearned
that quickly. Yeah. And this goes for basically every single topic that we cover. It's it's a process, like Be gentle with yourself. Like even if you realize today, you in this episode, you go oh my god, I'm in one of these relationships. I have done that before, like I have reacted in defense and been called an abuser. Like I'm with a narcissist. I'm with an addict with narcissistic tendencies, like, Oh, my God, like that realization in itself is going to take quite some time to sit
in before you go. Okay, so what do I do about it? And then it takes even longer to actually do something about it. Yeah. And I know, it's tough when you're in it. And like, I think that it's only natural that we want solutions quickly. This is the one area of life that doesn't have many quick solutions. I can come up with a quick solution for an addict for sure. Yeah, lock this dude up and make sure he don't get drunk, right. But we start to get to work and do better. Yeah, but the emotional
stuff, it just takes time. It does takes freaking time.
It's like habits. You know, you're recreating habits you're having to use your brain. Like when I
worked people through like, like I got sober working a 12 step program. There are other ways to do this. But when I got sober, it took me like nine months to work all 12 steps. A lot of people it will take anywhere from six months to a year to do it. And in that course of that first year is like the most emotionally trying time you'll ever have in your life. Yeah, it's not like you you learn that you're an addict and If you stopped drinking, and then day two, you're just
better. You unlearn the behaviors of the reason this stuff happens. It's no different from the other side of it. So like, respect your recovery and be gentle with your recovery. And acknowledge that recovery takes time. It's a process and be gentle with yourself along the way.
And keep going, though. Yes, don't quit the hardest. So just keep going. Don't just go back and you will have you will go back to your old habits, it's process as part of it, but always acknowledge them. And that's what's going to help you move forward through them and educate yourself. You know, just keep going.
Yeah, it breaks my heart when people beat themselves up that they haven't gotten it right, and that they're not better and like, oh, yeah, like me, like I learned about detaching with love on Friday and on Monday, like, I'm mad at myself, because I haven't done it yet. Man, that takes time. Yeah, be gentle with yourself. It's a process. You have to educate yourself on this stuff. First, you have to know that even exists, you stumble across us. Okay, that exists. Wow, that's a thing. And then you
educate yourself. And it takes time for you to really see how it how it looks in your life. And then you start to make little changes. You take one step forward to back. That's the way it goes. Yeah, it just didn't do not give up like till the wheels fall off. Stay on the course. You're gonna be okay. Yeah, there's recovery for everybody. Even if they don't get recovery. You can. Yep.
So how do we cope with reactive abuse? Oh, goodness. I would suggest finding a therapist that specializes in narcissistic abuse or trauma. If you're unable to find a therapist that specializes in that, which there's a lot out there, I'm sure we can find psychology.
I think it's psychology today. I want to say Psychology Today. They have this awesome filter for finding a therapist, where you can search by their specialty in their in your area, what insurance they accept all kinds of awesome stuff. Yeah. And you can find specialists, if you will,
yes. Because there are going to be some therapists out there that are not they don't specialize in this type of thing.
I love therapists, but I do too. But we've made game because they weren't. They weren't educated in this particular realm of recovery. Right? They have given people some advice you would give to normal people that weren't dealing with a drug addict or a narcissist or an alcoholic. That is so far off base. Yeah, yeah. So just
make sure you find somebody who specializes in something like this. Write down the experiences you have in a journal, if you feel like there's something that you're reacting to, or you feel like it feels weird, write it down, put it on paper, that can help you process some things easier. And also, you know, circle back to see where this behavior is
coming from. Recognize your reaction, Matt, you were telling me this earlier, you know, take a breath and tell yourself that it's valid, say I'm not abusive, and I choose not to participate
or fuel the fire. Like we said earlier, these reactions are typically involuntary, there are times that you just do it, give yourself grace, if you do do it, but now that you have it in the back of your mind that it is reactive, it's easier to take a step back and be intentional in how you're going to react now, which could be not participating. It could be walking away, not necessarily freezing like I would do, because that did not get me
anywhere, either. But you can you know, just get away from the situation. And that will help you.
Yeah, there's plenty of tactics you can use. But I think acknowledging what's going on in the moment, almost like an out of body experience, like okay, I can see what's happening right now. They're trying to get a reaction out of me. Even if I do give them one, I have to know that. I don't need to sit here and beat myself up and feel like I'm the cause of this or that I'm as bad as they are. Because you're not. This isn't typical day to day behavior for you. It's okay. Now, do you make
amends for this stuff? Do you apologize? Like, I've always been on the side that even even when I've dealt with some really abusive people, even when I've been in these types of situations, I will always make right. Even if it's the coldest text message ever, like, I'm sorry for when I said XYZ yesterday. I just leave it at that just because I feel better at night knowing that I've owned my part. Yeah. And just left it at that but knowing damn full well that this person is toxic
in there. Just call them when they are the crazy, right. And they're after you.
Yeah, no. Yeah. And if it's can, you know, if they're still abusing, obviously there are different. There are different things that you can do to you know, just empower yourself educate. We're here to validate you and help you push forward.
Yeah, nothing easy about this topic. But we hope that it was helpful for people that have felt guilty whenever they have reacted. Or they look at their part and say, Well, I'm just as bad or I'm just as abusive. Chances are that in a healthy relationship, you wouldn't be acting this way. If you look at your past, this really isn't who you are. Yeah. Don't think too incredibly hard about your behavior. is when you were backed into a corner and bullied and you reacted. That's self
defense. That's, I think all we would want listeners to know about this. But it's a tricky topic, man. Yeah, but hopefully provided some sort of clarity. Right. Okay. All right. I think that's all we've got. Right? Yeah. That's where there was something
I know, I'm thinking, I feel like I'm missing something on this. I wanted to say that. I know that the the React reacting is justified, right. But I don't want it to be an excuse to react.
Yeah, don't throw a cinderblock at your spouse. And Paige said it was cool,
right? Right, right. Like, oh, no, this is why I'm reacting, don't do that, that's just gonna fuel the fire, the whole point of all of this, honestly, is for you to protect your piece. And if that means not reacting, that's more for you than it is the other person. And it's gonna take practice, and it's gonna take time, and it's gonna feel really weird and uncomfortable at first. But it's important in these types of relationships, to protect your peace and not feel the fire.
And I would also like to say that if this is going on in your relationship, it is unlikely that this other person is going to, you're going to be able to entice them to change. It's unlikely that something like because I can see us already just getting a message that says like, Okay, this is happening, how do I get them to stop? It's the wrong question. Yep. What do I need to do about it? So I'm not in the situation anymore, right? There is the
better question. I think a lot of times, people in these relationships are trying to make something out of nothing. And they're trying to make beauty out of just ugliness and torment and chaos. And if it were, if it were only up to you, you would have fixed it by now, but it's
not. And I think that just like when it comes to this reactive abuse, and we're looking Okay, so what's my responsibility here, my responsibility here and within the relationship, like I need to start start looking at just my responsibility and start thinking about what I can do to change that other person. So this doesn't happen anymore. Just acknowledge the fact that it is happening, that that's not okay. And that you have very few options now. One of them is
leaving the situation. And this is usually the most common, the most unlikely, is that they actually acknowledge what they're doing, decide to get treatment, get into the recovery, validate, you take accountability, and you live happily, happily ever after. Now, while it is possible, it is unlikely, because it's not up to
you, it's up to them. And it has to be this perfect storm for them of desperation, willingness and opportunity, that they can get sober, they want to get sober, and that they have the means to do it. Yeah, they can take off a month from work or go to treatment or or whatever it might be, you know, it's just incredibly rare. But I often I see people who they understand this is happening, they acknowledge this is what's going on, but they still want to know
how they can fix it. It's not up to you to fix.
Yeah, well, it's also we've had people even recently say that they stopped reacting. And that even pissed the abuser off or them right, well, because it's going to piss them off. So I'm going to tell you this, now you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, but if you're going to not react to it, that's going to be more peaceful for you. Because you're not having to make it worse. Now, they can say and do whatever they want, but by you not reacting, is going to death.
It's about you. It's about them. It's not about them. It's all about you. And it takes practice, and it takes time. And it feels really weird. But it's all about you and how you feel and how you can protect yourself. Yeah, it's gonna piss people off,
I'd say 90% of the things that we talk about on this on this podcast designed to help you protect your own peace. There are very few things that you can do to fix someone else. That just, it's just the fact of addiction. That's just how it works, or even narcissistic abuse, like these people are unlikely to change because of something that you've done. We've, you've already tried everything, right? And the more you learn, we're teaching people these things so they can learn
more about themselves. So they can become empowered to make decisions that are best for them. Which generally involves understanding that one day like I can't do this anymore with you. I love you doesn't mean I don't love you, but I cannot tolerate this behavior anymore.
Yeah. And sometimes standing up for yourself is not, you know, reacting, it's taking a step back. Yeah. And a lot of people don't understand that. I know, I used to not understand that.
Oftentimes, self growth, which is what we're doing here. self growth, personal development. Personal Development oftentimes means outgrowing a person. It means you outgrow somebody else that happens in life. At some point, you become more knowledgeable about certain things, you you've discovered truths and they're not up for it. You can't change them. But you could change you what you do today. Yes. We hope that you've taken something from this that allows you to do that. Yeah.
All right. I know we went on I like that. Okay. I had a lot of stuff to say in this episode.
I love that. When I edit, there's more page clicks.
Oh gosh.
That's my goal here. Okay, awesome. That's all we've got. Until next time. I am Matt I will see you