Lessons Learned Together After 4,000 Days Sober

competition. But when I got done, you said to me, it's gonna be hard to save that grind. You said I think I just fell more in love with him. That was really cool. It took me a second. I'm like, Why? Because I want them the whipped cream competition. Because I flexed on the other dad, you know, but then like that, you know, just millisecond ever thought. I was like, oh, it's because I'm present with my family. And I'm doing the things

that we always dream we do. And we're actually doing them right now. Welcome back, well come back to another episode till the wheels fall off. I'm Matt. I'm Paige. And today we're talking about the growth that comes with 4000 days of sobriety. Congratulations, boo to us, not just to me, but to us. It is our story. But I'm still very proud of you. That

Before we get started, though, let's talk about the course yes, our mini course is still available. It's an intro to our larger course if you've been listening for a while you know that we built this course that's designed to help spouses and partners of addicts and alcoholics on their own recovery journey, it sort of outlines a path gives you guardrails to operate in, and it's designed to empower you also validate and educate you and walk you on your

own recovery path. There's a mini version of this thing available. So if you're not ready to make the financial commitment, if you're not sure if this is something that's right, for me, there's an introduction to it. It's a relationship evaluation portion of the larger course. And it's available for a limited time for $50 on our website, or on independently strong.com. Yeah, we should have just to the end of March, to the end of March. So not much longer. Yep, not much longer. There'll be a few

more days a few more days. So get it while you can larger course is still out there. And when with that course, you also get office hours for us. Office hours implies us not just not we're not giving you our cell phone numbers to just text and call anytime. I would like to do that we just never sleep. But I love helping people. I know you love helping people. But when you get the course you get

office hours for us. So as you're working through it, you got two situations going on, you'd like some feedback or some clarity on one of the concepts are working through Hey, how's this apply to my life that now that this is going on? You're going to get a thoughtful response in return. We are not medical professionals. We don't

provide medical advice. We are not licensed therapists but we've been there done that we have walked through this journey together we more than happy to help walk you through it as well. Yes, we've been doing this for almost 100,000 hours we know we're going to at this point. That's

the episode. So if you're a regular listener, you might remember for our 23rd anniversary This year, I wasn't here. We weren't together for the first time in 23 years, because I was out in LA doing something. And we couldn't talk about it at the time. But now that the the, I guess it's a campaign is out, we can discuss

it a little bit. Yes. So I partnered with a leaf, which is a Bayer company to talk about opioid abuse awareness, something that is very near and dear to both of our hearts, because that's the reason that we have this podcast. I mean, ultimately, that's what that's

what got us here. So I was given this really cool opportunity to talk to people, there was four people that we interviewed, they didn't know that they were talking, they didn't know if they were talking to a doctor or a pharmacist or what, right, they just, we appeared on a video call, they were being told they were talking to an expert. And they didn't tell him what kind of expert. So I ask them questions about their pain. I asked them questions about how they've treated in the past, if

they would consider opioids. And then we start talking about some of the side effects of opioids. And they start really simple, like some stuff that a pharmacist might tell you. And they start to get darker and darker and darker and darker. And you'd be watching the people's face on screen there. Like, what is going on? Like, why are we talking about this? This is, this is crazy. And then I reveal the end that all that crazy stuff I just mentioned, that was my life. That was me.

And in that moment, they had like this realization like, Whoa, I didn't realize it was that dangerous, it was that serious, or that it could be that serious, that dangerous. And the whole point of the campaign is to raise awareness for options that are out there, right, we're not advocating that someone take any particular over the counter medication, just that you discuss the options

with your doctor. And any change you can like I would encourage people just from my personal opinion, is that opioids are like a last resort. There's a time and a place for that type of treatment. I don't believe it's home. I've never believed

this. Since I've been sober. Knowing what I know now about what I've been through and how easy it is to access those things and how quickly you can walk over that invisible line where you're treating your pain and now that you're addicted, and what that does to a family what that does to like spouses and partners like we discuss here. In the ad, it was a really cool opportunity that came at the right time. Like I don't believe in coincidences anymore. You know, I've seen too much in

my life. Now. I think that this was just sort of like God's timing kind of thing. Just one of those opportunities you get because you're, you've put yourself in that situation. It's like he puts it down in front of you. It's like, hey, you need to do this thing. And so we did, and it released today. Got a virtual media tour. Coming up to talk about some more of this.

We're going to be paired up with Mary Bono, Sonny Bono's widow, former California Congresswoman and she is with Mothers Against prescription drug abuse Magda thanks what you say that's I get that right, Madam map to my dyslexia is kicking in NAFTA. Looking forward to that that's going to be really, really cool. But today's been released, and it's we've been posting and talking about it. And it's been kind of surreal, hasn't it? Yes.

over to Tufo couple. And check out any of the social media profile links the link tree there, it will have it listed. So, let's go ahead and listen. So it starts off with the sound of a video call. And this is not your phone ringing. Yes. It's been happening

behavior changes of that. You could find yourself lying about everything that you do. Everywhere you are, and everywhere that your money is going. You might find yourself going through the medicine cabinets of friends or family or rifling through people's purses. That's a scary thought. That's a scary thought. You might find yourself in your backyard, swinging as hard as you can add a fence to break your hand. So you can go to the hospital or the ER and get a couple of

pills. You might find yourself on Christmas morning with your nine month old daughter in the back of your truck, pulling up to a drug house leaving her in it while the truck is running. To go upstairs and get just enough pills to get you through the day.

and stuff. It's just people don't talk about it. That's

emotional. I know, for the average person to hear that story. It's emotional. I mean, strangers that never met were emotional for us. This is this is the because you're right. This Was Your Life, too. It's not just mine. You know, you were on the other side of all those things I was doing and you were directly in the line of fire for all this stuff.

because it starts innocent. I had an injury. I didn't I didn't mean to walk into this. I wasn't looking for that. Yeah, you know, it sort of found me and then it took me and then a decade later before you wake up and realize what's really happening and decide to do something about it. So it's really cool to be part of this

thing. It really is. I mean from the from the moment that this was like the like the creative critic put it together talking them about it like it felt like it was just right the entire time. And then the work that we do here until the wheels fall off. They seem to just like pair in perfect clay, you know, because we're talking about the addicts perspective here and they're like, let's not get people started on it, and then we can hand off from there and like, okay, so what happens if

you are here? And how do you repair relationship? How do you how do you deal with all the Seaton the lies and everything else that comes after that? It's, it's really cool to be part of like, it's really like our work is really hard. Don't get me wrong, like, this is like hard stuff we do. Like, oftentimes, I'm like, man, like, this is really heavy emotional stuff. Like sometimes I wish we could just like, you know, do some, like sell widgets or something. Right?

we set up here. Like, I've told Paige before, like, a lot of ways like this has been like, like a, like a life hack for a good marriage. Because we sit here every week, and we're forced to process some of the stuff in it might sound like a conversation we've had a million times. And it might be but it's different when we're sitting here recording and thinking about it and writing it out, and the outlines and everything else. So we've benefited from no

doubt as well. And we've gotten to meet so many amazing people and get introduced to amazing people and be like, bear witness to people's growth like that. That has been so cool.

I'm trying to save lives and trying to save marriages, fathers wives. You know, mothers like everyone out there who's affected by this. Yeah, these are people and all the complexities of people that are affected by this thing. So it's, it's about awareness. And, you know, this weekend was, gosh, like, I think this came up a few times. Yeah, you know, yeah, we had a really, really cool

weekend. So like, everything we just heard on in the in the campaign is like some of the darker moments of our past, which are the relevant that that happened. Those things happen. It's real. You know, that Christmas morning story? That's true. Yeah. Going out in the backyard to break my own hand. That's true. I literally broke my own hands. So I could go to the doctor and show him didn't get the X ray. So like, it gets some pills. Oh, yeah. Cuz

We've talked about it a bit here. But I think we spend more time on the dark side of this thing. And then anything we do, kind of have to because most people are there like there. A few that have actually figured out how to get out of it. Yes.

Hardy, we were hermits. We stayed home all the time, you didn't want to do anything, you didn't want to go to family functions, you didn't want to do anything. So fast forward. Now, whenever you sent that to me, and you were like, Hey, let's go do this family fun activity, it's still kind of like, Wow, I can't believe that he's actually wanting to do this. I still think about that. And I'm still like, oh, wow, this is kind of awesome. Those

hard. And I've told you that for years that it's hard to, you know, switch your mind to where you were before where I was before,

just maturing an age. But the bigger part of that is the changes that take place from challenging yourself completely sober and challenge yourself to be a better man a better person in his last 4000 days. Yeah. It it's kind of cool sometimes. And it's sort of validating, in moments. And I think this is sort of important. And like I, I think you've always done a really, really good job at supporting me and telling me that you're proud of me. I think that people do need that. I

agree. I think validation is important for everybody, I think. And don't get me wrong, like we've had those conversations where you've told me like, What do you want to freakin cookie for like being an adult today? Like, congratulations, some people might feel that way. I think that you would be you'd be selling yourself short on the benefit of really picking someone up and like what that can do for somebody and what they can do for a marriage and a

relationship. I know, it's easy to take these things for granted. But even today, still, you will make mention like, man, that's it's just so cool. You want to do things like this, like we're talking over a decade later, and you're still you're still reminding me like keep going. I love what I'm seeing. Everyone loves what they're saying. I know you love what you're doing, keep it up. It's really important to do that. No matter if you're dealing with

addiction or anything else. If you know someone who's ever been through a tough time and they're winning today. Make sure to remind them that you see that let them know that's huge. It means a lot. Yeah, just like we see like like wheelies all the time. We see you we see you Yeah, we do. You're doing it you're killing it doing great. It's important it's important.

So anyway, we we booked this thing that you didn't expect me to book we take a family road trip which I love road trips road trips are my favorite

was it was a bad break. I had screws and rods and the whole bit of reconstructive gnarly scar. Yeah, it's crazy to roadmap on my ankle and and then a few years later, I broke my back. I was I was moving a filing cabinet down some stairs and the guy was moving in with it slipped out of his hands. The top thing was super heavy. We didn't even empty it out. Like we were so dumb. We just like oh, we'll figure it out. It was an empty filing or like 17 years

old. Yeah, I was a teenager and so it was being dumb, you know, and it fell down the stairs laying on top of me and I broke broken vertebrae herniated several discs. And I didn't treat it. I didn't do anything about it. I just got pain pills for it. And then years later, it just like it's one of those like it's degenerative, so it gets worse over time. And it just got worse and worse and worse. And worse to the point where I was having to get injections all the time. Now this was an act of

addiction. I was getting injections on the reg because every time I went to go get injections, I would also get to refill my prescriptions. Yeah. And there were lots of pills. Lots of pills. I was Oh my god. Yes. Bottle crazy amounts of pills that you would blow through in less than a week. Yeah, like, a three month supply. Yeah. And like a week? Yeah, it was insane. That's why you went to the streets. Yes, I had to go. That's why I had to go the streets because the doctor couldn't keep keep up

with my habit. Insurance companies. Were sending letters to my mom's house like, hey, we noticed you're getting a lot of prescriptions for a lot of drugs. If you need help, you know, there's resources for you. I'm just throwing that in the trash. They're on to me, you know? Yeah, somewhere out there. There's someone's record and an insurance office. That letter is still out there somewhere. Yeah, some kind of a risk of some

kind. But anyway, I've had back problems that the back problems didn't go away, like I got sober. And I learned how to deal with my pain in different ways. But it's getting worse. And it gets worse and worse and worse. Every year, it gets a little bit worse. I still get injections about once a year. Yes. And they give you some relief. Don't get me wrong. But for the most part, it's a I've had to learn how to

manage pain, right? There was a narrative that was sold to the American public in the probably early to mid 2000s, that we shouldn't be in pain. And there were pharmaceutical companies like Purdue that were selling this idea that like, we want to eliminate all pain, we want everyone to be pain free. And it was a this very, like performative empathy. Really sadistic and like, manipulative tale about how they didn't want people to be in pain, but they were really just trying to get

people hooked on drugs. Yeah. And that's come out. There's tons of documentaries about it, like dope six are really good. One really good one. There are others that are just I mean, there's, this is a well, well told story that's out there. Yeah. But I was, you know, I was in the middle of that I was right in the middle of that. And so you could go in there with any amount of pain, and they were giving you crazy amounts of opioids. When I got sober, I learned that pain is part of

healing. I remember reading a book of Kaymer when the name of the book kind of cannot remember it now. It was about pain. I picked it up in treatment could not tell you remember that book. It was like a big workbook couldn't tell you what's called either way. It talks about the history of pain treatment and things like that. And at one time, it was believed and still, in many cultures, it's believed that pain is part of the healing process. It is a natural part and necessary part of the

healing process. Like we're supposed to go through some level of pain. It's I really took that and ran with it. And I agree with that 100%. In in listening to my body and the kind of pain that I'm in, I just have to pull back at times. Like, there's certain things I can't do. Like I have no business doing deadlifts or squats anymore, or jumping on trampoline jumping on

trampolines. Yeah, like a lot of the things that it sounds like fun or grabbing a box or you know, three or four days of like walking like the fair are like spring training and baseball like there's there's a certain I have to know my limits now. I have to know my limits. And it's so hard for man. I'm just like one of those people that just like go go go go go Yeah, you know, like I'm really athletic. Or I say I like to be I'm not like really athletic. I'm, I

like to be active. I like to be active, okay, I ride bikes, I run I play sports, all kinds of stuff and I'm, I get hurt really easily. You know, and I have to deal with that in different ways. Now, like I understand now that pain is part of healing, so I'm totally fine being in pain. There's some level of pain, though, that is debilitating and you can't do much about it. So there were times when I will turn to over the counter drugs.

Things like leave things like ibuprofen, Tylenol, like all the basic ones everyone knows about. And I'll have to rest. I'll have to do stretches yoga. Take it easy. I have to do a lot of cat cow. Now but you can't do the not so much cow. Cat Cat not so much cow because anytime you do

that bad. I mean, I can tell I know you I know when you're in pain and you don't even have to save face I make or something. It's not a face. It's just your demeanor. It's the way that I, you always know you're quiet. You're just not like your goofy

self. Like I can just tell. I know when you're in pain, and I think oh, I remember to when they had that big bounce jump thing there and the kids were even like, Dad, you're not getting on that you're not getting on that because you did hurt your back really bad, like last year, a year and a half ago or something at a trampoline

park. And the kids witnessed it and they're like No, Dad, no. So they know all about your back like we even our son is even at a point now he's he's almost 10 And he'll walk around saying,

around. Like, there's no metals given out for that, you know, I don't like to be an inconvenience to anyone. So I just can't kind of quietly go find a binge or something like that. And I'll have to relax a little bit and just deal with

Yeah, yeah. And it's not be it's also being you know, I'm also caring about you, obviously, but I do have to let you know, you're like you're gonna affect me too. So let's kind of be mindful on your part.

It's uncomfortable. I can deal with discomfort. That's fine. It's totally fine. Like discomfort is part of life. Like we've preached that here forever. Oh, yeah, that discomforts part of life, part of life. And I don't think there's anyone walking around in their late 30s 40s 50s. and beyond. That's not in some level of pain from something. You know, we carry that around. Yeah. It's just how are you

going to deal with it? I know one way that I can't deal with it, which is through any type of narcotic, or any type of mood or mind altering substance, I just can't. I've taken steroids and things like that. And I'll take over the counter, like steroids, like I mean, like prescription steroids. We're not talking about like, Hulk steroids. I mean, like, prednisone, things like that, to reduce swelling. I'll get injections every so often. But, you know, I have to

deal with it. And then I I've been asked the question, like, Would you ever take opioids again? I'm like, Man, I don't think so it would have to be really, really, really bad under the rights like I would have to be in like a massive car wreck or something or surgery. Even then, like if I was surgery, like for instance, one day, like doctors have told me many times, uh, you have to have surgery, you're gonna have to have back surgery. This is gonna get way worse before it's not going to

get better. And I've thought about I'm like, Could I get through surgery without the use of like, opioids? Yeah, I think I could. I do. It might be miserable, but I know what the alternative looks like. And that's not worth it for me. I've I've been through kidney stones. I've been through broken bones. I've been through more back flare ups and I can possibly count the SEC to me like all kinds of these, like injuries that people usually stop for.

So if I was ever in a situation where I had no choice, like if it was excruciating where I'm about to pass out, like, what I consider it Yeah, under the right setting, I would have to, I would contact everyone in my sober network, I would have increased layers of accountability with doctors and nurses as well as you. People would know. And I wouldn't, I certainly wouldn't take them out of the hospital. I don't think I would take them out of the hospital. I just I can't see

myself handling that. Well, I've got 10 years of experience that says I can't handle that. Well,

going to be different. And then it comes back way stronger, all you do is hit pause, you don't stop and start over from the beginning. Again, all I did was hit pause. On April 13 2013, I hit pause. And I've been paused ever since if I pick back up, you don't pick back up from when I was 12 or 13 years old, you pick back up where you left off, which is for me, like, I'm gonna be around much longer. I know this. I know this. And I've seen this more times than I can

count. Which is like, for me at this point in my sobriety, one of the greatest benefits, this is gonna sound horrible, but don't take it this way. One of the greatest benefits of going to 12 step meetings and go into treatment centers, is to be reminded of people who thought that they were smarter to come back. Like I watched the scouts come back with arrows in their ass. And they say didn't get any better, man. I thought I could figure it out. I thought it'd be

different this time. And they come back and remind me what's out there for me if I want to go try it. I'm like, Thanks for the reminder. I appreciate that. Yeah, at this point, I figured out how to live sober. I'm still learning every day. But that's a lesson I need to be reminded of. Yeah, it's powerful. I've seen it happen more times than I can count. And I know that I will not be any different. I know I wouldn't. So today I choose sobriety.

looking at them. And like just the love I have for that moment. And you in that moment in them and just the gratitude, you feel like it makes you want to cry. Like it chokes you up just thinking about where things were headed and where they could be, but where they're not and just the grace that you feel that like, holy crap, like we're not there. It's like waking up from a bad dream. And and none of its real. And in that moment, just like, Oh, thank God. I didn't

ruin everything. You know, it's like how Scrooge must have felt the morning after he was visited by the you know, the Christmas ghosts. It's like, I didn't ruin everything. I'm okay. Everything's okay. And I just feel so much gratitude. In those moments. I'm able to watch you guys and spend time with you. Like we did so many fun things as a family this weekend. Yeah,

because it burns your nose. You know, he was really upset that his nose was burning as it came out of his nose. And then as I'm walking back to the my bed, I look like side of my like my peripheral. Just pick something up and it looks like I mean, someone just slaughtered something. I mean, it's like, I mean, it looks like a sacrifice took place over here. So much vomit, your hotel rooms. I don't have like carpet cleaner or anything else. And it's like two

or three in the morning. So your brain is trying to process like, what happened and I

know if that's just me. And I'm like, just the I'm going to do what everyone else doesn't do like I'm just gonna I tried and

the cabin door. And as soon as I open up the door, I hear splat plop, plop, plop, and I just go ah, F Oh, we almost made it, man. Like he puked at the threshold. So we're cleaning it all up. And then he's like, every hour 45 minutes. It comes back. He got a virus at this like, yeah, at this point. We're like, Oh, he's got a virus or food poisoning, but none of us were sick. So virus. Yeah. He's puking, like every hour. So if like for the ne peut. I don't know, eight, nine times at night,

see you do things like that. And of course, you can say, Oh, well, you're a grown up, you know, you're a grown man, you should know how to do this. But there are a lot of grown men out there who would not have handled it like you did? Don't I think it's great. And every time it happens, I it's a new core memory. You know, it's over writing the things that happened in the past.

do this. Like our hands went up right away. And we got called up there and we ended up winning the competition, but when I got done, you said to me, it's gonna be hard to say without crying. You said I think I just fell more in love with you. That was really cool. It took me a second. I'm like, Why? Because I won the the whipped cream competition, because I flexed on the other dad, you know, but then like that, you know, just millisecond of a thought I was like, oh, it's because I'm

present with my family. And I'm doing the things that we always dream we do. And we're actually doing them right now. They doubt that was powerful. That was cool. That's not anything I ever would have done before. And it's not performative. Like I'm not doing these things, because I feel like I'm making up for lost time. Like, I want to do these things like this is the life I signed up for originally. And I finally just get to live it. And it's cool. It's just really

cool. I don't know where to put it. I'm just extremely grateful for it. I'm never proud of it. I'm just grateful, really grateful. Like I'm, I'm just, I sit there and like pure grace, like, I don't deserve any of these things. If I got like, people don't get what they deserve. If I got if people got what they deserved, I would be in jail. And I would be single, and you'd be married to some wonderful man, and he would be raising my kids. That's what happens when people get what

they deserve. I got grace, you know, something that I truly didn't deserve Arne. But it was I was given an opportunity. And I took it. And I just decided to put everything I thought I knew and everything I believed aside, and I just like, I'm gonna, I gotta try something else. And I owe it to the people that were there for me in the beginning, and not just to talk about people who were sober, that showed me that it can be done. Yeah. And they were showing me that you could be happy and

sober. And that you could find a replacement that wasn't just like, gonna make things, you know, tolerable for those around you. But there's a true substitute for a better life. And so if you couldn't show me something better than I never would have done it, I never would have gotten sober. If it wasn't going to be better. I'll just go back to what I was doing. Man, this is so much

better. But I owe it to those people in the beginning, like, like my sponsor, my 12 Step sponsor, all the people that came and volunteered their time to show me it can be done. And, man, I'm just grateful. I'm just grateful. Like, that's grace. Like, I don't deserve any of this. But I'm so fortunate. So lucky. That's awesome. Thanks for dealing with me. Know.

and an amphetamine. So why did you stop drinking and smoking weed and even taking the MCAT you were on amphetamines as well in which was a prescription when you became clean?

honest. I heard someone say, one of the first days I was in treatment, they said many addicts have relapsed, thinking that alcohol was not a drug. So many people have done that, like, well, I didn't have problem with alcohol, or I didn't have problem with opiates, or I didn't have a problem with Adderall. I didn't

have problem with weed. My problem was x. And they just focus on x. For me any mood or mind altering substance, anything that makes me feel good and do bad shit, I'm going to chase that is my personality. When I'm really honest with myself. That is what I do. So I had to consider Okay, now let's pretend that you're in your house six months from now we've removed opioids, but you think you can smoke weed? How would I smoke weed? I'll tell you how I'll smoke weed all day, every

day. That's how I'd smoke weed. Okay, let's take away the weed. But you can drink How would you drink all day, every day. That's how I do things. That's how addicts operate. So for me, it's solid, liquid or gas, it doesn't matter. It's all the same thing. When I get a substance in my body that changes my state of mind. I want more. It's like

this allergy kicks in. That's what Dr. Silkworth called it and the doctor's opinion that they wanted, like I guess it's a preface or forward to in the book of AAA talks about this and he's like it's it's like an allergy. It's like the phenomenon of craving happens like something happens in my brain. Jordan Peterson did a

study on this. He's a site psychologist, psychiatrist, a psychologist in Canada, he was doing these studies and he identified like, he could see addicts looking at their their blood alcohol measuring their desire. So they would hook them up to all these brain things like this, like some somehow measured your brainwaves, right? And on the ascending Alcohol curves. So as your blood alcohol content is rising, some people get an abnormal response where

they want more. Most people, your average drinker enjoys that feeling and then lets it go back down guys like me don't know when to stop. It's like the phenomenon of craving kicks in, I need that to be stronger. I need multiples of that. I need that to last forever. That's what happens in my brain. And I've known this about myself from the first time ever took a substance. So I'd be lying if I thought, could I drink ever

again? Like, in the beginning, I was like, maybe Yeah, but where would we end up though, if I've screwed it up here, I'm probably going to screw it up there. And it's just the truth I have with myself. And it's like, I'm resigned to that. I had a really good run. Like, I think about it, like I retired with a really good career, of drinking and using, like, I took a lifetime's worth and a very small amount of time. I've had my dosage. I'm

good. I've, I've experienced everything you could experience with all those substances, all the things that people do. So I hadn't, there was nothing more to explore. There was only pain and regret and sorrow and like, destruction left.

best for your future self. So for me, like the decision early on that I'm just not going to use any sort of mood or mind altering substance, it was a very conscious thought, because I know where I would end up and why did I know that? Well, I had evidence in the past to show where I had done it before. So why would it be any different? Yeah, why would it be different? And we use that logic for everything else in life? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we could look at every like, okay,

let's say that. Someone's a bank robber. Right? They're a bank robber. Right? What are they likely to do? Again, rob banks or steel? That's what they do. This is what they do. That's what they're going to do. Okay, well, so we're gonna give them a job in a bank? No, we probably shouldn't do that. They have a history of this. addicts, alcoholics, I think you have look yourself in much the same way where it's, this is my history, I tend to abuse things. I tend to go too hard on things.

Even cough medicine. Oh, yeah. When those things kick in, it's like, huh, kind of feels nice, man. I wonder what two would feel like, I feel like I heard this, this frickin joke that that illustrates this perfectly. Okay. There's an AAA group with like, 50 people, and they're sitting there. They're in a meeting, it's, it's quiet, someone's talking. And then a doctor burst in the room. And he's holding up a pill. And he's like, I have discovered the cure

for alcoholism. All you have to do is take this one pill, and you're completely cured forever. And the alcoholics are just silent. They're just sitting there staring. Until one moment one of them stands up, he raises his hand. And he goes, what happens if you take to think that illustrates perfectly the mind of an addict or an alcoholic? Wow. What happens if you take more? What happens if you take too? How can I make that stronger? How can I What can I add to this to make it

different? That's what our brains do. And once you have that truth about yourself, it's your responsibility. Now to manage it. There are many people who for years and years and years and years will try against everything to manage that. And what I have seen through my experience of being in the rooms for 11 years working with other people, and just being in the space is that I'd never seen a single person figure it out. Why would it be me? I have to I'm the average, right? Like, I'm

the middle of the bell curve. So find the middle of the bell curve, I'm probably just like them, I will I'm not special. I'm just not special. I would be just like them. And I think you just have to accept that truth about yourself. A lot of people just have a really hard time doing it. They think that they're different or unique. Or they can't drop the fantasy of, you know, like the romanticism of the use. A lot of people romanticize it. Like they remember the one time they got

it perfect. They didn't forget the 50 other times that went terribly wrong. Yep. You know, they want to remember that one time in Mexico when they were their wife and him that night was just perfect man. And they made love and it was great. And it was on the beach and but they don't want to remember the DWI. They don't remember like, you know, getting fired because you're hung over. Any other problems that we have screaming at your kids or drinking, like sneak drinking things, these

things they don't want. Remember that stuff. That's what addiction does. Yeah. So like, once I know I have this thing in my brain, okay, now, what can I do to work back against that? And that was like, the first thing I decided to do was like, I can't do anything, man. I know this about myself.

the emotion in front of you. All you're doing is putting it on a credit card to be paid later at a higher interest rate. That's it, it gets paid eventually, you want to pay more you want to pay in more pain, or you want to deal with it right now. Let's just deal with it right now. Let's get it over with. Yeah,

in their private thoughts. And they're thinking about how they were treated, or what was said. Because we're too volatile to like, address anything with, like you're creating like this phantom show of a family without even realizing. Yeah, there's so many issues that stem from this. And, like, you think you're being sneaky, but everyone knows we see it. But there's a way out just how honest you want to be. Yeah.

have a problem. Here's a pill, oh, you feel this, here's a syrup. Like whatever it might be. There's whatever ailment you have, we will fix. You're not supposed to feel anything other than happiness and peace all the time. So I think it started with that. It's like this idea that I shouldn't be in pain. So once I came to accept that healing, part of the healing process was dealing with pain. I become just more open to it, like start to

feel and experience my pain. And then I had this thought one day, I'm like, is this really that bad? Like, is my pain really that bad? Isn't it all relative? And so I would start to do things that I wouldn't normally do, like, used to be as soon as my back would hurt, I would just like lay in bed all day long take pills. Then I was like, well, go do something, I would get up and go hang out. And like, it's not that bad. I'm able to do all these things.

It's just pain. And it's like, I've told our son this before, like he. I think kids watch a lot of like pro sports like soccer. And they'll watch guys that are like flopping for an injury. And the reason they do that it's because of trying to get a penalty is going to help the team, right? It's dishonest. It's but it's part of the game is what it is. But he's like really embellishing these injuries like he's like limping around, and I'm like, Are you hurt or are you injured? Because

there's a difference. If you're hurt, suck it up. If you're injured, that's a different conversation. That means there's something structurally wrong with the body. We gotta get this fix. Something's torn. something's broken. Are you hurt? Suck it up. Quit being a bitch. That's what I told myself now. Just crude as it sounds. Suck it up. It's okay. It's just pain. Yeah, and you get through it.

recovery. It's like it's one of the hardest things one of the hardest things about like active addiction to is just being just sitting here without anything like, What the hell do you do? What am I supposed to do with all this time and all these fields and like or the lack of feelings? Like what do you do? Like I had to learn how to fill time like boredom was a huge trigger.

as much fun. Is that worth it? To me that cost benefit is the 20% of awkward feelings worth all of the wreckage? Yes, it is. But is it as fun thought it's not let's just be real about it. Yeah, that's why people drink. People drink because they liked the effects they like, because it's fun. Yeah. So you have to redefine what fun is. And you find more fulfilling ways to

spend your time for me. One of the reasons and this is this is a lot of self dark work, I did say dark shadow work really early on was I had a lack of purpose. And that led to this empty feeling that I filled with drugs and alcohol. purpose to people like me now comes very simply, when you're sober and you found a way out, you are in a very unique and interesting opportunity, unique opportunity to be really useful to the world by telling your story helping others to get there. So I fill

my time with that. Now, this is two photos, a variation of it. We do a lot of things that are incredibly fulfilling. And I find fulfillment in different ways. Now, I'll find fulfillment in photography, in music, in writing and doing a bunch of other stuff. But those things don't just happen all at once. You kind of create them over time, like you find new hobbies you find new things to do. But yeah, people might say we're boring, but okay, what's boring? You know, what's boring to you.

If that means all the things I just described, and we probably just wouldn't get along, because those things are really cool. If you're only if you only have one trick in your bag to have fun, I would say that that's not fun. That's an addiction, that you have a bigger problem than just like the ability not to sit still like you have an addiction. If everything you do revolves around alcohol or drugs, there is a problem. Period.

whatnot. But the friends that I've made, in addition to them, since I've been sober are some of the best friends I've ever had in my entire life. Like people that really, like you bring value to their life, and they bring value to yours. And I don't just mean like, like transactional like, it's actually it's not transactional. It's, it's, it's transformative.

Like we yeah, we really pack into each other's lives, like, talk to each other about like deep meaning in our lives, that we really have awesome discussions about big things and like you listen, and they listen to you, and you make each other better. Those are the kinds of relationships so my circle has just changed in that. It used to just be full of like these, like disposable people were becoming go like you never really knew they were never got closer than

the surface. And now it's like people who really know me and I really know them. Yeah. And that's awesome. I think that's great. That's, that's like the good shit.

going to be okay. And I believe that, like, I used to have a fear that this was like a temporary thing. And at some point, I would just like, see through the bullshit, and I wouldn't want to be sober anymore. But like, my thirst and desire for sobriety is stronger than it's ever been. That

every single day. Thank you God for another day sober, thank you for another chance to do things right? Thank you for another chance to live your will and to do something for others pack into the stream of life. And then I get my day started. And anytime I get agitated, or upset about something, and I've done someone wrong, I make amends for those things. Like it's really freaking simple. You know, like, I was taught anyway, that we're

never cured of this thing. All we have is a daily reprieve maintenance are contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. And I believe that and I've found that to be true in my life. And I think that you've witnessed this too. You've witnessed me work on this thing every day. Yeah, some way shape or form. Yeah. And it's just automatic now. And it's hard in some at some, like, sometimes it's hard for me to go back. And like remember what that was like, like really early

on, but I'll never forget it. We were in treatment. And they gave us like statistics on recovery. And they were there was a I was I was in a room with 20. Guys, there's 20 of us. And they said, one in 20 of you will be sober in a year 120 of you will be dead in a year, the rest of you will have relapsed to be still struggling. I remember looking around the room just thinking the other sucks be the other 19 of you guys. I don't know what to say, I'm gonna get this

thing. I never had any doubt at any point that I would figure it out. Because I had seen others do it. They told me here's the blueprint. If you just do this, everything will be fine. I'm like, Well, if it worked for them, it worked for me.

Sure, cool. Yeah. actly. So I was like, alright, well, I'll just get obsessed with something else, then I'll get obsessed with growth I'll get obsessed with with challenging myself with, you know, forgetting everything I think I know getting on. It's like, I want to be the best at that. I want to be the best me I can be today. Like I'm not competing with anyone. Just me. I know that every day I leave something on the table or I can be better. In 4000 days. I've yet to sit there

at the end of the night. And I do this every night. I go through my day, you know, was I selfish, dishonest, afraid, was a self seeking was I thinking of myself all day was actually thinking of other people? Do I owe anyone an apology? Like every single day there is. I've screwed up at some point every single day. Welcome to being human. Right. So I always have something to strive for. I don't think I'll ever be perfect. No, but I'm great. But I should never stop trying. Now, you know? Yeah.

into gold. And I was able to that's that's the lesson I want people to remember about me is that like you can you can redefine who you are at any given moment. Yeah. And the way that I was remembered at one point, My life won't be the where I'm remembered forever. That will be a small part, you know, and that'll just be the first few chapters of the book. It talks about me and the rest of it's going to be me helping other people trying to be better

man. The work we do here to fo like that's the legacy I want to lead the world. But I have so much to be thankful for especially you I can't be understated enough like, man, we went through hell. Yeah, we went through a lot of shit. Like listen to that like on the leaf spot like listening to like, that was Christmas to us. That was our Christmas y'all. I left my wife at home because you weren't feeling well. I wasn't

feeling well. That day. I left you at home and took our daughter to my mother's house where they were doing Christmas. Now, what kind of husband would do that? Leave you at home on Christmas when you're sick? No, what should have happened was, hey, we're not going to make it. She's not feeling well, we're just going to be here. The only reason I left the house because I needed pills, you knew

about this later on. I don't remember finding out about it that day. Because I'm pretty sure that I asked you in question. Do you like I always did. I always questioned you when you were gone for too long. And I'm sure you pulled something out of your ass and told me that Oh, well. I had to go do this or do that and came up with something. You came up with something? Yeah. And yeah. And when I hear it, it's just like, it makes it more real.

That that really did happen. And I know that you probably minimized it for a long time, for sure. And that was hard.

it. And it's just a self perpetuating economy in my head where manufacturing bullshit and I'm selling it to myself. So I can sleep at night. You know that the factory has been shut down. I'm able to call myself in my own BS now before other people have to. That's a gift. Yeah, that's a gift of sobriety. Yeah. And like this weekend, I think was just a, like a nice example of this is what life can look like. Yeah, we did all the family things together. It was so enjoyable. The weather was

perfect. We had so much fun, man. Wholesome good fun. Yeah. And

your addiction. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I felt like somebody. I felt like me. And I went with it. And I had fun with it. And I, I closed my eyes and I sing the alphabet. And I just kind of went with it. And my daughter was freaking out. And I was telling everybody, no, we have to keep going, keep going up, keep going up. And I would have been like my daughter back in the day. You know, like, no, stop, stop. It's uncomfortable. Stop now. Yeah, it was all your life. And I was like, No, I'm

going to do this. I'm gonna push. I'm gonna push. I'm gonna get out of my comfort zone. And you encouraged us, obviously, you know, I loved that. But that was a big thing for me. For me. It was a big deal for me. Myself,

beginning. But there's still a happy ending in here we can push. So wherever you're at today, keep pushing, push. It's okay. You're gonna be okay. Whether you're struggling with addiction, or you struggle with someone who's in it. Push. Do the uncomfortable thing. Do the thing you don't want to do. Yep, it's usually just the opposite. Yeah. Something I figured out early on was just do the opposite of what I think I want to do. Oh, yeah, that's what I was the right. There was the

right answer. 100% Yeah,