I don't think it's I don't think you can separate necessarily and say like, it's just because the drug use no, there's so many other things going on here. Like we've talked about separating the drugs from the person separating the alcohol from the person, there's about 5% of the issues. For why, like, I know for me like why I did what I did, there's so much stuff going on beneath the surface. The symptom to the outward world was drugs and
alcohol. Yeah. So a lot of times spouses will say if we can just get them sober, everything's good. And I can forget about the infidelity. I'm not saying don't I'm not saying don't rebuild your relationship, but I am saying, you can't just blame it on the drugs and alcohol. Welcome back. Well come back to another episode until the wheels fall off. I'm Matt. I'm Paige. Back from LA this week. Yeah, it's been nice. That was a crazy experience. Crazy experience. It's it's what you think it
would be? Yeah. With this gigantic set and all these lights and they had a camera on like train tracks. And other camera. That was the coolest thing. It was so cool. Yeah, watching I think they're called the grip crew learn some new terms. Yeah, interesting. They had crazy lighting. It was It was nuts. I had a hair and makeup artist and a wardrobe. Yes.
person you called me when you were done at the end of the day and you had makeup on and it was like that. It's like all it's all uniform. Yes. There was no discoloration or anything. What's your beautiful anyway, but I just thought it was crazy. It
was not it was a crazy experience. Like one of those deals where you're you're talking on camera and then someone comes in real quick and like hit you with the brush and dabs makeup and stuff like that. It was it was insane. I'm really real deal. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this thing coming out. I don't know what it's going to look like. I have no idea idea. I saw a couple of the
shots. Yeah, on playback. But other than that, I have no idea what they're going to do with as far as editing and whatnot goes. Yeah. But it's, uh, it's related to what we discuss here. Yes. So I think it's going to be relevant for people, right.
We can't give out too much information until it comes out.
I'm looking forward to sharing it out though. Look for this around mid March, I think right. Really, really crazy. Cool experience.
Yay. It was a crazy week. And I'm glad you're back. Me too. It was good to be home. Yeah, you had to stay longer than expected. Yeah,
I was asked to stay out there an extra day. And that was honestly it was the most fun I've ever had like working. It was it was so cool. Yeah. So cool. And I wasn't acting per se. I was acting I was playing myself. So that's easy for me. Yeah. I only had a memorize a few lines. And I did those the night before. And I actually nailed it first take
day. I'm proud of you. I think it's exciting. It's
crazy. It's crazy. It'd be it'd be cool for us. I mean, we did it partly for the exposure that it would give the podcast and everything we're doing and our our message to get out of there. So bigger audience. Hopefully we get there. Yeah. Okay, we've got a really awesome episode today. We left off last time talking about intimacy, and all things intimacy, right, with the exception of infidelity.
Right. We did have some questions on infidelity that we felt it was deserved some more time, and it couldn't fit into that episode. Right. So we're gonna talk about that today. Before we do. We've still got sweatshirts available. We've got tons of stickers like you can see on pages waterbottle over there, more than you can shake a stick at. We've got we've got our logo like the one you see on our profile pictures. We got a bunch of other designs we made. What do you click on buttons?
Oh, I know that scared me. Okay, sorry. All kinds of stickers up there. We've also got sweatshirts that are still available. Yeah. We've got the courses. The courses are still out there. Yes.
Many courses going to be next week. We're
taking it taking it down. Yep. Next week. So we have a couple of days to get that one. Yeah, so the self care mini course available for 50 bucks at independently strong.com. In addition, our mega course is out there. And we've just enabled this really cool function within the community that the course sits in, it's through teachable, yes. And teachable. Has a community function where right
we will be present. Yes, answering questions like specific questions like, Hey, this is going on in my life. What should I do? How do I take this? What I've just learned in the course and how would you apply this? Yeah, we're going to be answering questions in there. We try to get to, I mean, we try to get to people's questions and whatnot in the community. But the bigger it gets, the harder it is in our Facebook and our Facebook community. Right.
Yeah, right. Yeah. This one's different. This is if you're in the course. Because you're also going to be with the people who are doing the course as well. Yep. So you can all you know, talk with each other. And it's
really, I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, it's a new feature there. We've just enabled it and it's it's up and running now. So it's awesome. And you can get the course still 75% off using the codes, code wheelies. 75. That's wheelies with an s 75. covers that I think Yeah. Awesome. All right. Let's
get into this.
Let's get into the topic of infidelity. Okay, so
we weren't, we haven't discussed this. Never because it wasn't part of our journey. So In this episode, we're going to answer the questions the best of our ability. But we just want to start it off by saying a lot of this is going to be our opinions. Yes, not necessarily research backed, basically, is that the term that I'm looking for it is, this is going to be basically how we feel about the topic. So just take with it what you want and go with that. Yeah.
And hopefully, if you're listening, you know that we're not licensed therapists. We're not medical professionals. This isn't a substitute for therapy. We've got two people that have worked through something, this is our lived experience and live giving our opinions on just about everything. Yeah, same as if you if you were ever set up a session and go through like mentorship or coaching. We make that clear, like we're not licensed professionals. But we do have experience we've been
there done that. So when it comes to this topic, this is very much coming from a this is my perspective, this is what I know. The courses research back the course does have Yes, licensed professionals perspective, and yes, put that together. And we did have a call with a therapist about this topic, right? Because we wanted to provide some insight, but all it really did was just validate that we were on the right track. Yes. Because we always talk about episodes, and we go
through them. You just mean you and then we'll run especially for stuff that hey, we were sort of outside of our Well, what we're comfortable with, right? We always run this by somebody. Yeah, absolutely. came back positive. Right. So, okay, let's just get into the questions and then we'll let it flow from there. Okay.
Now, when you say the question, yeah, read it, please. Alright, so the first one is my a b, which is typically alcoholic boyfriend, I believe. Yeah, a B. H is our husband frequently cheats or carries on in sexting conversations with whoever will do it with him, but continues to talk when sober is the boundary to be very clear. Of if you continue, I will no longer continue in this relationship. I find I make excuses because of his addiction. There's more there.
You want me to I was just going to stop right
there. Okay, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot to digest there. Is the boundary very clear. If you continue in this, I will no law if you continue doing this, I will no longer continue in this relationship. And maybe I should have prefaced it by saying that there are this comes up a lot. The infidelity and addicted relationships. Yeah, but not all people who are addicted to substances do this.
There aren't really clear statistics on like, how many people are unfaithful in addicted relationships, but just to an internet search earlier said that between 20 and 25% of men self identified as having been unfaithful in their marriage at some point. Okay, so we're talking about what's that one in five 20% but one in five. Okay, I feel like I feel this is just me saying I feel like the incident the instances are higher when it comes to addicted
relationships though. Okay, we'll get into some of the reasons we think that could be Yeah, but when it comes to this person carrying on sexting conversations with whoever will do it with him and you've got this boundary that you're basically saying like I will no longer continue this relationship
I think that's a solid boundary
I think that's a great boundary
right because I'm we're gonna say up front that infidelity was a non negotiable in our relationship always has been and if some one of us did any of that it would not continue addict or not. It was the behavior. It was disrespectful and I wouldn't have allowed my relationship with you to go on any further had that happen? Because it was just something that I've always had a firm boundary and belief on with infidelity. Yeah, it's just my personal opinion that your boundary is completely
solid here. I've
got the same feeling about infidelity. It's just something that that's just a no, that's just a hard no for me.
Right. And I have been very open with all of our episodes about how I focus on behaviors, and not the substance or addiction. If somebody is doing something addiction or not, it's still not appropriate Behavior and Boundaries do need to be put in place.
Yeah, with with these questions, and then also like our our Tic Toc, DMS, fill up with these types of questions as well. And the question is often something like this, like this person is even admitted. She's saying I find that I make excuses because of the addiction. And that is very common. Yes, it is. Because you're thinking to yourself, Okay, well, if they're addicted, I know that means like, their brain is not operating as it
should. It's a disease. So when it comes to this cheating, does that fall into that same bucket? My perspective on this is absolutely not right. It does not. I know a lot of addicted people that have never cheated. Yeah, there this isn't. This is a separate issue. Yeah. It I now will speak out of both sides of my mouth sex addiction, things like that. Very much hit on the same parts of the brain.
Yeah, any type of addiction get does the same part of the brain. Once
you're addicted to something, there are co occurring addictions that take place and the propensity for those to occur is higher. Yeah, so someone that's already addicted to a drug, the likelihood that they'll go do something else addicting is higher. Okay, so when it comes to like this, but this is like sexting conversations like to me, this is just betrayal. Yes, it is. This is just betrayal, especially like the emotional affairs like that one. Oh, man.
Yeah. So let's discuss that, like the human connections that we all have. Yeah. Like, like, naturally over your course of your life, you're going to have connections with people, you're going to connect with people that aren't going to be your partner, your spouse, and you're going to think, you know what, maybe at some point in time, we would have had a relationship, you know, or you might fantasize about this person or something like that. But do you act on it? No. Why do you not act on it?
My priorities are in line. Yeah. And you can control the impulses.
It's the impulse, you're able to manage the impulses. It's no different than overeating. It's no different than you managing your sobriety. Yeah. Like you have, you will have craving sometimes, but what do you do? You don't give into the impulse? Right? There's, there's a choice there. Yeah. To say, There's no choice. That's just
I have issues with that. Yeah. And what you just said, there's like, that's, I think it would maybe shock people to hear that coming out of like, your mouth or my mouth. But like, we're humans, like, you come across people throughout the
course of your life. And you will find someone that you connect with and you, you'll, you'll you're right, you have that thought, like maybe in a different place a different time had I'd never met the person I'm in love with and I've committed my life with Yeah, that probably would have worked, right? And you might even find yourself like daydreaming about it from time to time. Like you can have like a quote unquote, crush, right? But does it go any further than that? Yeah. Never
know. It. I know that you've had these relationships, you know, that I've come across people to write. And we've even talked about yes, some degree, like literally open about it. Yeah. But it's not threatening, because I think we're very secure with each other exactly
where we're at. Exactly.
You're right. I think that even listeners that are hearing this can think about someone in their life. They've come across maybe someone they worked with, or someone they come across it, you know, parties every so often whatever.
Right? Right. And you have like matching energy as people say, or you just have these connections. That's just Yeah. But you don't take it a step further, you're able to manage that because you do have something good. You'd have you made a commitment with somebody. Yes.
So yeah, I think that answers it. I think the boundary that you don't want to continue and this is wonderful. I mean, if this is where you're at, where this is a non negotiable for me, I will not have someone in my life treating me this way. I mean, this to me harming me in this way. I gotta get out of here. That's that's a boundary protecting you. That's a fair boundary. Yes. Protecting your peace, your values, your beliefs. That solid, totally solid. That sounds very solid. Okay, what's next?
Ways of rebuilding trust and intimacy when there's been cheating due to the drug use? Okay. I don't have much. I don't have experience here. You don't have
personal experience. I don't. Nor do I. Nor do I. We've haven't had to rebuild trust or intimacy after cheating due to drug use now, but we did have a conversation today with someone that has worked couples through this before, and an unpopular opinions how he prefaced all of this, in his experience when there's been an affair now this
is outside of addiction. Yeah, this is just, yeah, he couldn't speak to oh, I've worked on many instances where there's addiction present, but he could speak to relationships where there had been infidelity. And how do you rebuild that he said, The hardest part about it is let's say it's a husband, that's cheated. And you've got this, this woman who's incredibly hurt betrayed. And rightfully so. His his feeling, and this is what he practices is that we didn't get here because of just one person.
Yeah, at some point in the relationship, something has changed, something wasn't being communicated. And it's not 100% One person and 0% the other that there's shared responsibility, and I want to fight back on that a bit. Because I feel once again, like impulse control, like all these things, but okay, I've never been in a bad relationship. So I don't know what it feels like to be in a relationship where you're not compatible. You don't share
values you, you fight. There's nothing, nothing in common between either of you, you don't support each other, you don't validate each other, and what would it take to drive you to someone else? Or to make the choice to go and, and cheat? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what that would take is. I've never been there before, but he says that there's a shared responsibility there. Now when it comes to addiction, I think that when you think of the addiction, it's a separate issue
once again. Yes, a separate issue but addiction cheating due to drug use. I got opinions about this. Okay. I do not buy for one second that you cheated just because you're on drugs, right? I do not buy for one second. You cheated just because you were an alcohol, right? Whatever it might be, you know many times I've been Hi, yah hoo times I've been drunk in my life, right? Enough for 10 people, right? I still had agency, I still had the ability to know what was right and wrong
at times now. Are you thinking clearly all the time? No. Is your prefrontal cortex operating at 100%? Efficiency? Absolutely. effing not right. No, we're close. But we have choices that we make. Yeah. So to say that an addicts love this. They'll say, Well, I only cheated because of the cocaine. A lot of times amphetamine users do this. Yeah, Amphetamine is just man. It's just this heightened state of crazy amounts of dopamine, they chose to take the drug. Right.
So you chose to put the to ingest the drug to begin with? Yes. And especially if you're, if you're someone who's done this before, you know where this leads. And that's what happens. So in some ways, when you choose to pick up, you're also choosing that this is a possibility that this is going to happen. So the higher likelihood that I'm going to cheat, do whatever else, right? I don't think it's I don't think you can separate necessarily and say like, it's
just because the drug use? No, there's so many other things going on here. Okay. Like we've talked about separating the drugs from the person or separating the alcohol from the person is about 5% of the issues. For why like, I know for me, like why I did what I did, there's so much stuff going on beneath the surface, the symptom to the outward world was drugs and alcohol. Yeah, so a lot of times spouses will say if we can just get them sober, everything's good. And I can
forget about the infidelity. I'm not saying don't I'm not saying don't rebuild your relationship, but I am saying, you can't just blame it all on the drugs and alcohol,
right, and it's gonna be a long road. I didn't know that. Because it taking away all the behaviors and the layers of processing and going through it, it takes a long time to rebuild that trust. And I can't, I can imagine if there is, you know, infidelity involved there, it's going to take even longer because that's betrayal to Yeah, but a lot of people will say that addicts that are using that's just like cheating on their partner, because you do choose a drug over the partner.
And I always felt that way too. Back in the day, it's the only the only difference is that there's not a connection with a human being, which does make a difference. That's going to be even more of a betrayal. Yeah, like
active addiction, I swear to you, it does not feel like a choice. Like whenever, whenever I've ingested something I have, it feels like no control over the next one I pick up like I know, but you chose to pick up the first. That's the thing is that we can always say okay, but the first one is a choice. Yeah, I agree with that. But once I get that first one in me, it's like all bets are off. Right? Does that excuse my behaviors? No, no, no, I
don't think that it has at all any type of behavior. No, that's gonna affect me, all of this is gonna affect me. Now, let's
say that you're driving drunk and you're hauling ass through a school zone going 50 miles an hour and a 20. Yeah. And you get pulled over. And you just tell the cop, it's just the alcohol,
I just have a problems. You think that cops just gonna let you go?
No, they're going to arrest you for speeding. You're gonna get a DUI, there are consequences. You can't be excused for your actions just because you were under the influence of something.
No, but but a lot of people in these marriages, they do tolerate the behavior based on the alcoholism disease. Yeah.
And this is like, this is the most difficult thing that I've had to explain to people, like in DMS and emails and things like that is I think spouses so badly want to want my response to be yes. You can't blame them for that. You don't know what you're doing. It just happens. And you can't explain why. That's just not true. Yeah. I hate to be the guy that delivers that news. But that's not the way it works. Unless you are blackout drunk. And if you're blackout drunk, okay, you
still got yourself there. You're still responsible for what happens? Yeah, you don't you don't know what you're doing. It's like it's like a time machine. Yeah, like you just wake up and like what happened that like, Xanax will do that alcohol will do that. Really? No clue what happened? Could you argue in that moment that like, I didn't mean to do it? Sure. Okay. But you did. Right. You put yourself in that position. Right. So what's
the if it's a one time thing that happened? I think it would be easier to rebuild trust. If they had that. That happened. Yes. And then they owned it took accountability and made changes and went to a program and went to therapy and did all of the things to try to rebuild the trust. I can see the trust being rebuilt again. Yeah, but if it is happening over and over again, again, you'll cheater again, my three strikes, you're out type thing, you know, like, how long are you going to
keep this going? They're going to keep doing it until you say no more?
Yeah. Yeah. And another thing this is What I've been told from therapist about rebuilding a relationship after infidelity, you don't get back the same relationship. No. And they argue why would you want to
do the same with if there's just addiction that's involved? You don't get back to the relationship from before? No, it's a relationship, a new relationship you're rebuilding from scratch, start
over. Yes. Oftentimes the work that that takes people are not willing to do right. And I understand well, yeah, for sure. I understand why. It's a lot. It's so much. Yeah, it's so freakin much to walk through that. Like a friend of ours has said that oftentimes, couples don't show up to therapy until it's too late. Yeah, they usually show up. It's like showing up to the mechanic when your car is on fire saying like, I needed to get my car fixed. Like this thing's done. This
thing is totaled. Yeah. And there is such a thing as a relationship being totaled. Right? We've talked about, I think, last episode, where it can be beyond repair. And it's okay. I shouldn't say beyond repair, but beyond what you're willing to do to repair it. Yeah, that's very likely to be the case. If it's gotten to this point where you've been cheated on X amount of times. How do you repair that? It could take decades? I don't know.
Yeah, I would definitely suggest if there is infidelity that's involved, then go to couples counseling together, see a professional, professional about that, and talk about rebuilding trust and how it would benefit you? Or what you've got to do for that? Because I don't know,
I think you can sort of walk through it in your mind. Like, what what would have to happen for me to trust this person wholly again, if I can't change the past, if I can't go back and change what they did. What would have to happen for me to get to that place where everything is okay, again, yeah, I don't think it's something you
ever forget. I think you could even find yourself years down the road after you are quote, unquote, recovered from it, and still have moments where you remember it, and it's still gonna hurt.
We still have things even from just addiction that I think about, and I'm like, God, that hurts. Yeah, like, I mean, it's gonna take a long time to rebuild the trust 100% If ever, because when trauma is involved, it takes a long time to actually unravel all that stuff. Some
of the ingredients that I know are necessary, it's gonna take time. Yeah, that's one of them. It's going to take consistency in new behaviors and actions and accountability, accountability, right, accountability and validation for harm caused. So you have to do all those things, which are incredibly difficult to do. And then there's this time component, which is, it's kind of just whatever it could be. months, it could be years, it
could be decades. Yeah. Before you're at a point where you're like, Okay, I'm feel safe here again. I'm good. But I would just want people to know and like, you have permission to say that I won't tolerate this. And it's okay to go. Yeah, if you feel like it's totaled, right? Why not? Right, right. Oh, my goodness, we got crazy sounds in here. This the printer, I thought something was like, something
was in the roof, like an animal going down the walls. And I'm like, What in the world than it really is? It's a predator. Okay, what's next? Alright, so, um, I mean, the rest of the questions are pretty much the same. I just wanted to touch on the one where it says, Is it really true if an attic says that was the alcohol substance, not me? If they cheat, while under the influences, while under the influence, which is pretty much what you just that is not true. That's just not
true. Yeah. And I also want you to know, it's not you either know, like, that's the thing too, is that I don't want the the spouses who are dealing with this, to think that there's something wrong with you that they're doing this. No, there's something within them that they're having to really fix. They need to correct yes, you know, and you're gonna have to heal from it. That's the difference. It's not that you caused it to happen. They made those choices. Yeah,
I think that the part that the spouse plays here is the enable me the enabling of these behaviors,
right? Which sounds terrible when you say like that, but it's basically just it's tolerating tolerance is condoning? Yeah, it is. If you're tolerating the behavior, and you're accepting it just because, you know, it's addiction or whatnot, then you're condoning it and they're not going to change because they're like, Okay, this is okay. This is okay, because she's not doing anything to change it. So your part that's really just your main part is just tolerated. Like what do you
want to do for yourself? How are you going to put those boundaries up to protect yourself?
Yeah. A show that I love is the Sopranos. Yeah, probably my favorite show
of all time. Yeah, we were Tony
and Carmela one time for Halloween. Yeah, weird. Nothing like either of them, but I just love the show. No, but
there's still some type of similar
some way we're like ride or die like that for Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like I would totally. We're totally hide a gun for you. If I had to. I don't know if I would do that shit. Come on, Carmela.
I'm not you know me. I'm the rule
follower she'd be like,
I don't tolerate bullshit.
Arrest him arrest that man. Anyway, my one of my favorite characters of all time is Carmela soprano. So for those of you that don't know, the sopranos is a show about a family that's in the mafia. The husband Tony Soprano is like he's a mafia boss and his wife, Carmela is a wife. She's a homemaker lives a, I guess, a seemingly normal life of some kind. I mean, obviously, there's some weird stuff that goes on when you're in the mafia. Yeah,
money and improper. You know, there's Okay, theft, all kinds of stuff. Anyway. Tony is a he's an asshole. He's a complete asshole to Carmela. And I always hated the way that he treated her. He would cheat on her, like, consistently, he always had a girlfriend or more than one girlfriend. He'd go to strip clubs, he slept with other women all the time, he would stay out till crazy hours, he would. He was so mean to her. anytime she would ask him for like, just basic human decency, or support
of any kind. Like the relationship was very transactional. Yeah. And I think that these relationships, in some ways transactional. It's like, you can get away with that if I can get away with this. And that's how it became for them and like my heart broke for Carmela. But at the same time, what was her role in her own suffering? She was responsible for a lot of because she condoned it, right? She was willing to sacrifice some parts of the relationship in order to
get the others Yeah. So in order to have the bright and shiny things in order to have like the picture, perfect family that you could put on social media, and run out there as like, we're so great. She tolerated this abuse from this guy is so freakin long, right? And so yeah, you do play a part. In some ways. It's it but it's through what you tolerate. Therefore condoning Yes, she condone that behavior by not standing up and walking out and saying, I'm not doing this right. You will not treat
me this way. Right. I didn't sign up for this. Right? She didn't set her boundaries, right and with with with an abusive person, someone who will exploit you. They're just gonna keep doing it. They're gonna take that as an okay, she's fine with this. I'm totally cool with this. Yes. But it killed her. But she just didn't have the strength to walk out because the other stuff meant too much to her. Yeah. So rough man. It is. So I think of like that kind of like that tragedy of that kind
of person here. Yeah. It's rough. Yeah. Okay, what's next?
That's it.
There is a question here that I wanted to sort of address. So what is the link between cheating and addiction? Or is there one? Is it really true fanatic says that was the alcohol? It's what I just said. It's just the one you just Yes. Okay. Sorry. But anyway, is there a link between cheating and addiction? Not exactly. Right. Just not exactly. Yeah. I think that addicts would love you to believe that. And spouses would love to believe that. Yes,
as well. Yes. They would love like both sides, like, oh, let's just blame the addictions, we'd have no problem. And you're both kind of sitting there. With this heavy feeling in the air. Like, I get the feeling there's something else going on? Yeah. And you're right. There is yeah, without a doubt. Yeah. So moving past infidelity is going to take professional help, in my opinion. Unless you know, someone who's been through this, it can walk you through it step
by step. But I bet you there, their journey also involves some sort of professional help. Now they, they got help from someone, but when it comes to addicts, why they cheat? There's some these aren't scientific reasons. But these are some general generalities. I should say, like, these are some things that you can, yeah, you can, you can throw these things out there and say, there's probably
something to this. So impaired judgment is one, we talked about that there are parts of the brain that are not working at their best, right, your cognitive function is impaired. decision making processes are not the best. We've all been drunk and done something stupid, probably Oh, yeah. But did you cheat? No, there are big, big problems. And they're small problems. You know, many of us have made the mistake of driving. And some people maybe even wrecked a car. For a lot of
them. They do that once. And that's that, yeah. When someone's addicted, they're going to keep doing these things. And they put themselves in these situations where it's more likely to happen. Yeah. So it's not like, you can't tease out like causation from this. You can't say like, oh, that causes cheating. No, it doesn't because it didn't explain why. So many others don't. Right? Don't Yeah. seeking validation
or escape. Actually, the the rest of these sort of run together kind of threw this up, but inability to prioritize relationships. And this is one that I really wanted to focus a bit on was escaping emotional intimacy. Okay. I read this book called biology desire by Mark Lewis. And it's, it's called biology of desire, comma, why addiction is not a disease. And it's a catchy title, I think to get people interested fired up. I think you referenced this book
last episode. Maybe I did. I'm not sure I've referenced it before I know that. Yeah, I know. And I put it in the, and I've put it in that talked about in the course. But it talks about the neuroscience of addiction. And Mark Lewis has got a really interesting, interesting perspective. And he has got a crazy amount of knowledge on addiction and how the brain is functioning, inactive addiction, what gets people sober, talks about the concept of neuroplasticity is how we get addicted in the first
place. And then also how we get out near the end of the book he's talking about, he's making this argument that if addiction is a disease, that means that love is also a disease. Because when you look at the way parts of your brain light up, when you're in love, when you're getting validated from somebody when there's when you're
attracted to somebody. It's the same that dopamine right, so he's not, can't prove that addiction is I mean, that love is also a disease, but he's basically saying like, okay, they're similar. It's sort of making the argument like, okay, it's sort of like audacious to me that you would say it's a disease, when it's just a brain doing what a brain does is if you're gonna say that addiction is a disease, and you have to say that loves the disease as
well. But started digging into more of that like that, that notion, like sort of that frame like love, that's really interesting, because I think that underlying some of the stuff is like, we've talked about codependency we've talked about, like, the need to feel loved. And some people were willing to sacrifice a lot of their values in order just to get that get that almost like it is a drug. Right, right. For addicts. emotional intimacy is
very difficult. You are not concerned about forming deep emotional connections with people when you're in active addiction. You're not so a lot of the questions we get that's the answer is that you can't Yeah, and we did a communication episode on how to communicate with someone in active addiction. That was the gist of it was that you can't you can't can't communicate with somebody, you can't convince them of
things. You can't form emotional connections, you can have a good relationship with someone's inactive addiction, right? But when it comes to cheating, I wonder if there's something behind this idea. And it's just a thought that I have. When things get serious in a relationship, and we have to get emotionally intimate. I have to start being open and honest and vulnerable with you. Yeah, something addicts most anyway aren't capable of doing or don't want to do. But they love the
feeling of being in love. Who doesn't it's like a dopamine kick. Yeah, just like a drug. So I wonder how many addicts are leaving relationships to find new ones for that, that small stage, when it's you meet somebody, you find out you have things in common. You fall in love, you start sleeping together. And then when it gets serious, you depart. Yeah. And then you start that cycle over
again. I mean, if you're getting the same sorts of dopamine kicks, and we talked about CO occurring addictions and things like that, I wonder if there's something behind this about escaping emotional intimacy, like addicts will cheat as a way to escape emotional intimacy, but go find what they're looking for from someone else. Like the fun part. Yeah. Like, I remember what it was like falling in love
with you. Like, I remember that there are certain days or like when the sun shining in a certain way, or like the weather's a certain way that I remember what it felt like, write certain smells. Yeah, me too. Like it imprints on your mind? Yes, it does. It's a very alluring thing. Yeah. I think that a lot of people chase that.
Yes. And they're not getting that in their, their current marriage any more, like you said, because there isn't that emotional connection. And like we said, in our last episode, you have to have an emotional connection before you have the physical part. Yeah. And they're not having that. So they're gonna go get the physical part from somebody else. Yeah,
I mean, some of them will get really really shitty about this, too. Like, I've seen some guys basically say, like, this is a need I have, if you're not gonna give it to me, I'm gonna get it somewhere. That's not okay. That's just straight abuse.
It is it is. And I don't I wouldn't tolerate that. Like, no, that's you're, you're, you're stronger than that, you know, you're good enough, you're good enough. For sure. It's just breaks my heart that somebody would say that and threatened it. Because all it does is make our self esteem go down so much more, as though we already we already have such a low self esteem from being in this relationship. That type of thing just crushes you even more, and it starts you start questioning so much more.
Which is why what we do here, I think is important the work that we do. It's about empowerment, it's about helping people through that because we know as well as anybody that just because someone told you to do something doesn't mean you're going to do it. You can give people the right answers. I can tell an addict you should stop drinking. Yeah. And they can go Yeah, you're right. Right. Right. But they've got to want it. Yeah, they have to see it. They have to practice it in
overtime. You get there. Yeah. That we understand that people aren't just going to take our advice at face value, they're going to have to see it for themselves. Because in the back of everyone's mind, is this, this idea of terminal uniqueness, where it's like, I see what you're saying, but I'm different. I'm different. Like, I was raised over here, and I had this type of family and this is what my background was like,
and I'm this kind of person. So I think that's good advice for most people, but that's not me. Yeah, but it is. That's really tough and people have to come there and we're patient. We will love you till you do. Yeah. I think that everything you're saying here is 100% on the money, though, yeah. But you gotta be empowered enough to be able to make those decisions. Exactly. That's not empowered enough know that, something like
that. But I think that this is validating their feelings for shutdown. You know, I really do believe that we're validating how you truly feel. And you're, you're just looking for answers that do align with your values. And I hope that this will help you see things just a little bit clearer for yourself to make better choices for you.
Yeah. You ever seen? You ever seen the way like a little kid eats cupcakes? Like if you gave it? Like, I just Yeah, I just, they just like the icing? Yeah, throw out the rest of it. Yeah, that's sort of what addicts do when they're serial cheating. They're taking the best part of the cupcake or the relationship, they're licking the icing off. And then when you get down to the cake, where you have to do the work and chew and stuff, throw it away. Done with that, that's too much work. Go
on to the next one. And so they sort of sit there like think of like a little kid with a bunch of cupcakes and it's like, ah, though it away. Look at the scarred. Yeah, just get rid of it. And it's they're seeking validation. They're trying to find that connection. They're chasing that high. Same thing,
and you're trying to give it to them, but it's not working because they are still in active addiction. Yeah, they have to pull their weight to they have to be able to be emotionally connected to you as well. And they're not capable of that. And for my cupcake now,
I can speak from experience and say that was really hard, if not impossible for me to experience love when I couldn't even love myself. Inactive addiction, like it's, yeah, it's so true. I hated the person I saw in the mirror. Like, I hated me. Like, why would I believe for a second that you liked me? Right?
Right. I had the same thing when I was going down my you know, mental health. crashing? Yeah, I felt the same way. It wasn't loving myself, and I couldn't get love from you.
Yeah, I wouldn't given it. No, I wouldn't give in it. But when it comes to this topic of infidelity, I think the key takeaways are that drugs don't necessarily cause it, you can't blame the drugs. And the drugs can excuse the behaviors, right? Like infidelity in active addiction cannot be explained. All of it cannot be explained away by the substance. Right? That's heartbreaking for a lot of people I know. And I know a lot of addicts would argue with me, but I will argue all day
long. That is not true. Right?
And I just asked you to simplify it just simplify like, just what is the behavior and how is it affecting you substance or not? There
you go. So let's separate the two things. Look at the behavior. Yeah. But there are a lot of people who will also and we should spend a little time here people who, having said all this and understanding how bad it was. They still want to make the relationship work. Yeah. Seek professional help you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, with a therapist that does specialize in infidelity, trauma, betrayal. Yes. Things like that. Oh, yeah. Where are you going to bring that up? That's right. Um, so
we've referenced the book. Why does he do that? A few times. Yes. And I found out about that book through a tick tock account, actually, there's this account called btr.org. And I think it stands for betrayal. Trauma Recovery. Okay. We don't promote a lot of people's stuff on our show, because it's our show. But I think that the work that these people do is is great.
You have seriously you've binge watched some of her stuff, and you came across a lot of great stuff for you. Yeah, the phrase, you look at yourself,
the first time I saw a video, I was like, This is stupid. There's no, this is dumb. You did. And but I knew in that moment, as soon as I have, it means a millisecond thought, oh, there's something to that. Yeah. There's a reason that triggered me. Exactly. I never act that way. I'm always open and receptive to it. I know. So then I started listening to more and more of it. And I started to see more of myself and some of this stuff. And then they mentioned that book, and then I
read the book. And I was like, Oh my god. Yep. So I'm really grateful for the for the account and for the work that they do. They've also got a website, they've got a community as well. They've got coaches, they have a podcast. It's called btr.org. That's the name of the TIC tock account.
Yeah. Check it out. Seriously, it's really good. We,
they don't talk a lot about addiction. It's mostly on things like infinite infidelity, lying, financial abuse, emotional abuse, pornography, addiction narcissism. So it's thing that you do, though, it's about the behaviors while the same stuff we cover but we add in this layer of addiction, yeah, that I think brings people to us. And then we sort of cover this, but they don't talk about addiction a ton. No, but they're, it's They're excellent. They know what they're talking
about. They've got professionals over there. And they've also got people with lived experience. So follow us follow them as well. Yep. Just don't leave us. No, it's awesome. I want you guys to get help wherever you possibly can. Absolutely. So check that out for sure. But yeah, key takeaways get some professional
help. It's going to be a long road if you do want to repair that it's going to be a really long road and also understand that men that have these abusive qualities, shouldn't just say manage to say people that have these abusive qualities. Very few are willing to do the work that's necessary to get better. Yes, it is hard effing workouts. I've done it myself, I'm telling you like, it requires an open mind and willingness. And you have to be able to challenge yourself.
I have one, I just think I'm gonna butcher this stat. But I read enough is enough really good book about boundaries. And when you feel like it's time to leave an abusive relationship, and I think it said something between like, two to 5% of people who are men who are abusive, actually recover. Wow. I mean, it was a really small number, I could have totally butchered that. I just remember being really small. It was a very small amount of people. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is
just mind blowing. But it makes sense, because of how long it took you to deal with your shit. You know, we've dealt with this. It took you like eight years to actually unravel every everything? Yeah, you know, eight to 10 years, if you really think about it, like to unravel it all. Like, that's a long time. Really long
time. I mean, you're undoing a ton of
No, that was like 10 years of active addiction. That's how much you were unraveling. So think about people who have been an active addiction for 20 years, is it gonna take 20 years for it to unravel? Could
have been longer than that. Because you think about it's not just the stuff that occurs an act of addiction. This is stuff that goes back to your
childhood. Yeah, it goes far. It's deep rooted, deeply rooted. Yeah,
then whatever it is inside of me, that made me want to control everything and everyone around me, and coerce people, and exploit people like all that comes from a really, really nasty place in my soul. And you got to dig deep and do it. So like, understand that if you're gonna go down this path that the, the odds are against you, and it's not going to be up to you whether or not it succeeds. Once again, it's gonna be up to the person that you're really
got the problem. Yeah, you're part of this is going to be having to find the patience it takes to get through this. Yes, if they choose to recover, and sort of on this, like betrayal and trauma type stuff, kind of we're talking about here when it comes to infidelity. Even when it comes to addiction, like you'd mentioned that you felt betrayed. Because I felt like I was taking substances over you, I was choosing substances over
our family. Yeah. And back from that, like one of the toughest things, and anytime I'm coaching couples, this comes up a lot. And it's I hate having to do it, I feel like an ass trying to do it. And I even tell women like I, I can't believe I'm gonna ask you this, when I'm gonna have to ask you this, you're gonna have to find patients, if you want
this to work. It's, it's like, I shouldn't have to ask you to but if you want it to work, and that's what you came to me for was to try to make it work, then that's going to be required, you're going to have to find patients where you there's none that's deserved, right? But they don't deserve any patients necessarily, right. But if we've agreed we want this marriage to work. It has to be it has to happen as
long as they're working on as long as we're working on it. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes.
Having patience. Like that's a question we get a lot is like, how do you how do you support someone like that? What are you doing? It's my questions. First, my first question like, What are they doing nothing. Then you can choose to be patient like your you can do that. Don't get me wrong, you can but nothing changes if nothing changes, but we'll have the same conversation right very soon. Right. Right. Yeah. So but patients is going to be required. Yeah, for sure.
And a lot of it and some you have to go to places you really don't want to go for a lot of people they do decide like this is total. Yeah, we don't like we didn't get any verify statistics today when we talk to the therapist. But he did say that. He was like my stats on this are sort of lower I think than usual than the normal but he was like, I bet you it's still depressingly low, probably 30% of couples actually get through infidelity in counseling. Don't
hold us to that. But he said but probably about 30% Yeah, most don't. But he said it's oftentimes because people have waited too long before they showed up. Right? Right. Right. They tried to fix it on their own right so long the resentment is already there resentment sets in Oh, that's
hard to break. It is it is that
takes years to just unwind that we've gotten to the reasons this occurred you know, so you could be getting into some deep water Yes, just just know that Yeah, but I hope we've answered some of your questions when it comes to infidelity. Just know that the substance doesn't excuse it, right? It can't right. There's no way Yep. All right. We got a pterodactyl little thing flying. I
know. I saw them. I saw him. Like, it's that means it's too warm outside or something. I don't know. We gotta go get our kid.
All right. Well, thanks for joining us. Thank you for being here with us. My name is Matt. I butchered that. Yeah, you didn't know. Oh,
wow. Does
it go do it for me? Well, I met on page