If You Were Sent This, Please Listen - Part 2

you'll be. So if we're telling spouses, they don't get to feel this way, because it came from a diseased person, you need to just let that go. What are we doing to them? What does that narrative doing to them? Welcome back, well, come back to another episode until the wheels fall

off, I'm Matt. And if you didn't already know we have a free Facebook community available can be found by clicking any of our social media profiles, it'll bring up a plethora of two full related links, one of which is our free community pop in there. You can just lurk and listen and learn from other people going through similar situations. Or you can post anonymously, which is greatness. can't reply anonymously, which is dumb, but you can blame Zuckerberg for

that, not us. And you also get information as to the latest happenings going on with us. One of which is our free call that we have about bi weekly now. But we do host them and you can find those by being in the community, we will post notify everyone when those calls are available. We've also got some cool stuff on the horizon. We've got some courses in the works and workshops and retreats, all kinds of awesome stuff. So you'll want to stay up to date with that by being in the

community. So if you haven't already checked it out, please pop over and visit with us spend some time with us. Yes, just a few couple quick questions. We don't ask for a lot of information. Just need to qualify that. You know, you know who we are? And then come on in. Okay, today's episode, I never really get nervous about recording episodes, but don't want you laughing. Why is that funny? But this one has. This one's got me a little nervous. And it's just because I want to

do really well. I want this to go well, I want this message to land. This is a message on that show today. I'm sorry, that is I'm sorry that you're here for that.

And all I ask is that you keep an open mind, stick around and listen to the entire thing. And I promise you, you'll learn something. And this can be really, really helpful if you apply it. Having said that, I'm just gonna want this to go well. So I guess let's just get into it. Let's just get into it. If you don't know who we are, and your partner spouse just sent this to you, you're like who are these goons? So my wife and I have been together since we were 14 years old since we were

freshmen in high school. That was 20 something years ago. Yeah, I was an addict alcoholic for 10 of those years. I was primarily an opiate user with alcohol, mixed the two of those every single day and then I mean really though, anything I could get my hands on. Yeah, if it made me feel good and do bad shit, I was all about it were that's kind of the way it worked for me. Sought recovery, started working down that path. And I've been sober now for over 10 years. That includes nights,

weekends and holidays. Yeah, every day, every single day. But we started putting content out in the world. And people started to reach back out like well wow, we need more of this more of this. And it's been kind of strange from us because we're like wow, is this really revolutionary? What we talked about here? Yeah. I guess if you don't know us or what makes us different. It's not just a story about sobriety like there are a million people who tell that

story that's not okay. It's not to say it's not special but it's not unique, right? not unique to make content about that. It's we're not influencers. This isn't some kind of influencer podcast or account, like, we don't live lives and try to get people to aspire to live our lives, right. Like we're not we're not posting our cars or anything else. It's not like that. Could it be a couple that defied the odds and beat addiction getting warmer? There's something to that that

is pretty unique. Yeah. What about a woman discussing her feelings that oftentimes spouses and partners are told that they're not allowed to harbor or there's something to that. Yep. And then more so a recovered addict or alcoholic, validating his partner's feelings and taking accountability for those things that you're not allowed to harbor. Those last two, there's something to that. Yes,

very much. So our mission here is to validate, educate, empower, and help spouses and partners on their own recovery journeys. Discover what that looks like for them. And the reason that this exists, is because the recovery community has largely forgotten about the people. They get railroaded due to our addictions, spouses, partners, family members, loved ones of any kind. And families have limited programs and resources available to them.

Oftentimes, they are told, they quickly need to forget about all the things that happened in the addiction, and just focus on their reactions. And if they can just focus on the reactions, and understand that they too have a problem, I'll codependency, then they can find peace and serenity that way, they are told to basically disregard everything that happened because it came from a diseased person. And if it's coming from a disease person, then you can't be hurt by it, you can't be affected by

it. And we just that is absolute rubbish. And that is what I think we preach here. And that's what makes us a bit different. Because the disease concept of the disease brain concept is valid, don't get me wrong, I'm not gonna sit here and argue it's not a disease, we'll actually get into that here shortly. But I will argue that the abuse that takes place by a disease person feels no different to the spouses and partners and therefore should be

treated no different. And while you can have a different understanding of it, knowing more about the disease, which is the education component of what we do here, we are still treating it as abuse. It is what it is. Yep. And I think oftentimes, even addicts are told that you get off the hook because you have a disease. That's just a bit about what makes us different. So if you're new here, you were just sent this, you're like, What is this, that's kind of what we're doing

here. But again, I am recovered, addict, an alcoholic, like I'm one of you, I know exactly what you go through. I know what it's like to lose control. I know what it's like to have that compulsive behavior and that impulse and that craving and that desire to use. But I also know what it's like to break it.

And I know what it's like to rebuild a marriage in a relationship and become everything that my wife always dreamed and hoped I could be one day, I know what's what it's like, around the full spectrum of this thing. So stick around, I just ask that you keep an open mind. And you listen all the way through, we might even split this into two parts. I think it might be helpful. It could be just droning after some point.

Maybe you've split it. Well. If the episodes, the episode ends, come back on the next day for the next one. You'll know. So your spouse can accept that you have a disease, the world can accept that you have a disease like no one's going to defy that or they shouldn't because you do there there is something that has changed within you physically, you have a disease.

People empathize with this. And they want to help if you haven't noticed, they here's what's frustrating, though, is that they know the solutions exist. So while addiction is a disease, the decision to recover is a choice. So there is some choice left in this. It's not all just disease forever. That and no one's mad at you for having a

disease. I think it's funny like Mitch Hedberg, one of my comedians I listened to back in like the college days way back used to, he used to joke that addiction is the only to or alcoholism is the only disease that you can get yelled at for having like, no one's yelling at you for having lupus or something. Yeah, but yeah, it's frustrating. And the reason is, is because there is a choice component at which some point we have to decide to recover and

break that cycle. Yes, that is a choice, even though you have a disease. So there your spouses, partners, family members, bosses, whoever, they're not mad at you, because you have a disease, they're mad because you don't make choices about your recovery. So want to make that clear, like I know you're struggling. Your spouse has no you're struggling, everyone knows you're struggling. But they also know that there's some choice left inside of you, some agency left inside of you about

how you recover. So let's get into the disease model of addiction. And I won't spend too much time on this or I'll try not to just have me if I'm going too far if I just go off on a tangent, okay. So again, I'm not going to argue that addiction is not a disease. Addiction is a disease. But I think that we have a failure to look at what a disease really is. So sigh as science defines it a disease is when a system of the body

becomes changed physically. So like diabetes, your pancreas is operating differently than it would in a normal person. You have a disease, autoimmune diseases, your immune system is not operating as it should that is a disease. When it comes to addiction. We call it a disease because parts of your brain are functioning differently than they ordinarily would addiction and the ingestion of addictive stuff. instance over time does create physical changes within the mind. So that's why we call

it a disease. Okay? Let's just start there. Yeah, but in just sense. Just keep it at that everyone on the same page here. Okay? We're good. Yes, thumbs up from you. All right, good deal. This is what it looks like in my life that like the loop of addiction has what it felt like was, I took a drink, I enjoyed it, I took a drug, I enjoyed it. I did it again, because I enjoyed it. And then I became to rely on it. I use it as a stress

coping mechanism. Once I was relying on it, I stopped functioning in the way I ordinarily would to deal with stress. Once I stopped doing that, I started to get consequences from life, like stress got a lot worse relationship problems. Some people have legal problems, you start to make really poor choices. And then once the consequences begin, you know, we do take drugs. So back to the beginning. Yeah. And then a cycle starts over and over and

over. The mind has been trained to seek the drug, though, I want to make that clear that this is a habit that we create, in the beginning with a choice starts with a choice, and it ends with a choice, but in between a disease is happening. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So there's a book written by a guy named Mark Lewis, he's a PhD. He's a neuroscientist, actually, guys. Brilliant. He wrote a book called The Biology of desire, why addiction is not a disease.

And he discusses how the various regions of the brain are affected by drugs or alcohol in long term ingestion of these things. So we'll just go through quickly and talk about some of the parts of the brain that are affected. And it explains some not all of the behavior and why it's so difficult to stop. So the reward circuit, which is the nucleus accumbens, is a central component of the brain's reward system. So during active addiction, it's strongly

activated by the substance. And it leads to the release of dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter we all heard dopamine, right? It's the feel good chemical in your mind. Over time related our repeated exposure, though, causes desensitization, so it's harder to get that same effect. So that's how that that that piece starts, okay. Got to put more my body to get the same thing. So it reinforces the need

for more. Okay, could the prefrontal cortex, we talked about this in an episode I think one time the prefrontal cortex is involved in decision making like this is what they call like the CEO of the brain, decision making impulse control and long term planning in addiction, this region can become impaired, you can see how that could be a bad thing. There's also the hippocampus, the hippocampus plays a crucial role in the memory and memory formation.

During addiction it's affected it leads to the formation of strong associations between the environmental cues and addictive substances. This is where your triggers are formed. This is where we trigger cravings. The amygdala is involved in the processing of emotions, and particularly particularly associated with the emotional

aspects of addiction. So during active addiction, the amygdala become overactive, which contributes to the heightened emotional responses that you get, such as anxiety, stress, and cravings. There's the striatum, which is a region in your brain that is involved in habit forming and reinforcement learning, and addiction, this region plays a crucial role in the development of habitual behaviors associated with seeking and using addictive substances and engaging in whatever addictive behavior.

There are some I mean, obviously, the gambling, sex addiction, these are gaming even like these, this, this part of the brain is being affected. And then the hypothalamus, which is responsible for regulating basic bodily functions, like your stress responses, releases of stress hormones, and an active addiction, this area becomes dysregulated, leading to the heightened stress response that we're familiar with if you're in active addiction, and it also contributes to withdrawal

symptoms and relapse. So these are this, this is what science looked at and said, Okay, these parts of your brain are being affected physically, they can do scans and see that they're not as active inactive addiction or while under the influence of a substance. So they it meets the disease criteria as science defines it. Yes, as science defines it, right? What were we gonna say? I was

based on the input. Okay, so if you start to seek drugs in reinforced that food, that feedback loop, your brain will continue to do that you will teach it a new trick you have to Usually a new behavior. But the consequence is that it does did substances do shut down certain parts, which make it harder and harder and harder to get off of the stuff and break that cycle?

Right. But neuroplasticity is what's happening here, he argues, and I agree with him that it explains how we become addicts in the first place. Okay, like there are genetic markers, some people have a larger propensity to get addicted to drugs, based on their genetics and environment in an environment absolutely plays a role. But as a good friend of mine often says, nature loves the gun and environment pulls the trigger. And I would say that your choice has pulled the trigger as well.

Sometimes we make choices that put us in these positions that sort of release these propensities for addiction. That's, that's the gist of the disease concept. Right? So the brain has been affected. We call it a disease because of that. But neuroplasticity is it's an amazing thing. This explains how stroke victims recover. And I understand that all stroke victims recover. But a lot of them can make recoveries to some

degree. You can, you can shut down one area of the brain and your brain can learn and retrain itself, to do all kinds of wonderful things, explains how people can learn how to walk again. I mean, it's it's incredible what the mind can do. Yes. And what's crazy is that the the very thing that we look at and say okay, that's a disease, neuroplasticity that allows that to happen that makes it possible as the same way that

we get out of it. Exactly. So when I look at the disease concept, I've never looked at it as I guess I think the way a lot a lot of people do when they look at disease, they think cancer, leukemia, they think like the flu, they think like very common ailments that people have, and they think disease, this is a little bit different. It's a disease of the mind. It's not exactly the same as cancer, please stop that narrative. Yes, it is not the same as cancer,

right? You having an addiction to cocaine, or alcohol is not the same as a child with leukemia. Yeah, like I've heard that more times, I can count and it drives me absolutely bonkers. It is not the case is not the case, it just falls into that same classification, by scientists, a human created definition that this is a disease. Yeah, so I just want to make that clear. But these things that occur in the brain during addiction are not

necessarily permanent. And the brain can recover and adapt in response to changes in behavior, and environment and Louis's perspective. And I would say, even my perspective challenge, the traditional disease model of addiction, and it highlights the importance of individual choice and learning processes in understanding and addressing addiction. And like, let's just back to that disease concept for just a moment, when you check into a treatment center or whenever spouses or go to their

family weekends. They're told you have a disease, they're your loved one has a disease, they don't really go further than that and explaining it. They want that empathy, because it does help make recovery easier. It makes recovery easier, because it's easier to look at yourself and say, Okay, I've got some compassion for myself. No, I'm not a terrible person. I do have something going on with me. And they're correct in that, yes, the correct in that. Right.

So I think what gets washed out along with that, is the taking accountability and what's necessary in recovery moving forward, and looking back at those behaviors, and acknowledging them, because our behaviors are harmful to other people disease or not. Yes, that right there. So we've got to look at this a little bit differently, right. And I think that society often operates like a swinging pendulum on a grandfather. Yeah. Like everyone's grandparents or any antiquey type home, you walk

into his got one of those. We all know what a pendulum is right? swings from one extreme to the other. So at some point in history, they looked at alcoholics and addicts and they threw us in asylums. They gave us electroshock therapy, all kinds of crazy experimental drugs. They went as far as to lobotomize people, I mean, literally sticking an icepick in behind your eyeball, and just destroying your prefrontal cortex in hopes that it would change behaviors. This is how we

were used to be treated. Yeah, it was looked at as a moral failing. This is a weak person, he can't stay off the booze. We were outcasts. We were outcasts. You know, as education developed science developed, we were able to look at different parts of the brain study different things, we realized that this thing did fit the disease model criteria. And so we went the other direction with the pendulum. At one point it was one extreme and now it's at the other where it's a disease,

disease disease. And that's all we ever hear is that is disease. And like I said, I've already explained like why that can be beneficial. The disease concept was introduced, and basically all choice was removed from the

equation. And the world started to lose empathy for addicts and science scrambled to support addicts with evidence that supported the disease concept, and drugs that treated addiction, like the conversation with scientists with researchers in the field, treatment centers, TV, popular rhetoric even and even in 12 step meetings. It It focused on this disease concept. But for me personally, it always felt very disconnected to me.

And I mean this even before I was in recovery, like when I was just a handful of days sober, they were telling me I have a disease, the way they were explaining it to me, it's like, I know what you're trying to do here. But that's not really accurate. Yeah, that hasn't been my experience anyway, like, there were certainly times when I was using against my will, I could not stop it. I could not

control it. Yeah, when I was in, like, intense craving mode, but there were several other hours, the day where I wanted to stop, I just wasn't ready to stop. Like, I was like, I'm just gonna keep running this. It's not that bad. I normalize the dysfunction. I tried to look at the bright side. And then as soon as I got my drink or drug in me, I forgot about those kinds of conversations. Yeah. But they started to happen more and more frequently. So that literally told me I had a

disease. I essentially stuck it in the bottom drawer. And I was like, I'll get back to that later. Like, I'm taking your word for it. I will listen to the lectures. I understand what you're saying. I totally buy in. I get it. But it's not exactly the way that you're saying it. I felt it makes it Yes, yes. Yeah, it sounds off for you. It just it always felt off. I felt off to when I said I understood what they were saying. But yeah, I don't know. Like, I think that you can use it as an excuse.

Yeah. And I saw the benefit of it. And yes, because when someone has an addiction, like there's a lot of guilt and shame that goes with that. And also when you tell someone they have a disease for a lot of people, that's enough for them to understand okay, when I choose to use addictive substances, this is the behavior that I usually this is the behavior pattern that I go through craving, use uncontrollable use

consequences. And so it helps them understand that if I choose to pick back up even after I get out this treatments that are what is likely to happen. That is my disease. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I get with that, like you're reactivating these parts of the brain that have not had a chance to heal and you're, you're getting back into that mode and you're further damaging what's already been what's already been

screwed. Right, right. A quick break in the action to let you know about an exciting development in the Tufo universe. When we started this thing, we said we would never work with an advertiser or company unless it's something that we believed in, and we already use.

They are in network with most major insurance and the standard private rate is only $100 per session significantly lower than many other practices offering the same high quality therapy. They believe that getting the help you need shouldn't drain your wallet. scheduling an appointment is quick and easy with their convenient online booking tool. No complicated processes or long wait times they value your time and ensure that you can access the care you deserve without any hassle.

unique goals. Tailored counseling group is your partner on the path of mental wellness experienced professional affordable care that puts you first visit their website, tailor counseling group.com or call them today to schedule an appointment and tell them to fo couple sent you a link and phone number is going to be available in the show notes. And back to the action. The other part of it is I've seen people use this the wrong way, which is I have a disease therefore can't win

don't try. And they just sort of give up and they use it as an excuse to relapse and make poor choices, right? consciously make poor choices. Or they'll

understand. So if I've, if I've completely upset you, just listen, just stay with me for a moment. Like we'll get to the part where this all starts to make sense. But I think there's some truth to that there are there's a lot of research to support that there are people much smarter than me that have studied this much harder and they support it. So I think that there's something to this even though it's goes it flies in the face of what's, you know, what's

popular these days. So I understand also how this can be too much for someone in early recovery to begin to challenge this like I do like I can see that it could possibly do more harm than good at some point for you to under stand that maybe I am responsible for some of this stuff, like the shame and the guilt that comes along with that, like I get it that could possibly be dangerous to someone's recovery that has a very, very fragile state of recovery. But I'm just this is

my perspective on it. And this is what, what I've read and what I've researched. And this is what it shows that we can't excuse all of our abusive behavior for this disease. It is it cannot be the ultimate cop out, right. And I think that was my first step in sort of making things right with my relationship and with the world. Because if I didn't focus on those things, and own those things, guess what, like, when I removed the drugs and alcohol, a lot of those behaviors were

still there. Yeah, they were in me regardless. Right? Years later, okay. Disease. No, not anymore. Yeah. So what's the excuse for that? Right? Like, I've just got some wiring in me, I need to fix Yeah. So if you don't, if you don't concentrate on those things, they will repeat themselves to some degree, maybe not all the behaviors, but certainly some of them will, they will pop up. So then let's get into the case of it's not a disease is that a choice? I don't believe that

it's purely a disease. Nor do I believe it is purely a choice. I think that sort of nuanced, and it's in between the two. In biology of desire, they actually get into this and the author is very much agrees with us that it's not necessarily purely disease, nor is it purely a choice. So you can't just say it's choice. Recovery is a choice, I do believe that that's purely choice, you can do that against your will even in it

will work. But addiction choice, disease choice, like it's, it's, it's not so clear, I'm not going to sit here and say that, you can stop anytime you want, that it's really easy to stop, just put down the bottle like I know, it's difficult. I know that for the same reasons we described, all those systems in your brain

are affected. Like those systems also deal with choice and learning, habit formation, loss of control personal agency, like these things deal a bit with the biology of the fact that you have physically changed parts of your brain. But I think that we would be wrong to say that we don't have some personal agency and some choice left in us. Like even addicted people make choices every day. They do they make choices to go to work.

Exactly. They make choices to pay bills, they make choices to I don't know, like coach teams like for their lives. I mean, yeah, like we make choices still. So you're telling me that, okay, but I thought we had a disease? Shouldn't all the systems be affected? Like the ones that are convenient, seemingly are are affected in the ones that aren't aren't just doesn't make sense to me. So I think that we have to look at our personal agency, and determine, Okay, I do have some

choice in this matter. Now, understanding that it is a compulsion, it is an impulse to use at some point when that craving hits like it, you can't really control it can't it's going to happen. But there are periods in the day in between that when we have agency. This is how I recovered. Yeah, you

know. And so my issue with this whole argument about the disease or choice has always been what I've learned about the disease model through treatment centers, and through 12 Step groups and through, you know, the treatment community and recovery community has been vastly different to my actual experience of recovery, like my subjective experience, and what science tells me, don't necessarily, they're not congruent, they don't make a lot

of sense. And so I think that there's a middle ground where they can get along, like the subjective experience of not just me, but other people that have recovered. And this disease concept and what science tells us about the disease. Yeah. And there are solutions. I think, like we mentioned that back in the beginning, like that's one of the most frustrating things about addiction and loving someone in addiction is that there there is a solution. There

are solutions, right? I wouldn't say there is one solution, right? There are multiple options. There are solutions, right? Like some people quit on their own this happens. I don't personally know anyone, but I've read the stories of many people. And I've heard the stories of people that have quit on their own successfully, like people who were badly addicted, they quit on their own. I don't want anyone getting any bright ideas. Say that's, that's dangerous. Yeah. Crazy, bright ideas,

because they're there. There are better ways to go about it. When you ask for help. Like, I read this book called who not how, and it basically implores people to stop trying to be experts at everything and just find the people who are experts and get their help. It makes life much simpler, much, much simpler, like you can delegate this

stuff, right, right. But anyway, some code on their own science has solutions, the Sinclair method is becoming more and more popular, which is the use of the drug Vivitrol in addition to cognitive therapy, where you take this drug and then you drink with it, and it removes all the feel good chemicals from drinking. So over time you associate less and less drinking with pleasure, to the point where you realize you don't need it anymore helps people stop it.

They've actually shown some really, really great Numbers have success with this. There's also anti abuse which is a drug that if you take it like I gave you the shot and you drink, you get violently ill, right like just start puking everywhere, which is another like negative reinforcement cue to the brain.

anonymous. There's even Overeaters Anonymous, like there's gamblers anonymous Sex Addicts Anonymous, like there are 12 Step groups for basically, you name it, it's out there, but there are also various, so those are 12 Step groups that are based in spirituality. And a lot of people have an issue with that. There are also other secular forms of recovery, rational recovery, Rational Emotive therapy, Smart Recovery life

ring. And then you've got like, there's, there's a Buddhist form of recovery called refuge recovery, which is incredible. Noah Levine wrote a book about this. It's called refuge recovery. It's incredible. If you like an Eastern perspective on some of this stuff, it's really, really good. Celebrate Recovery, which is more of a religious base. It's done a lot in Christian churches. Like there are options, right?

That's, and there's also personalized programs like you can Google Online, and you can find some guy who recovered on his own. And he wrote a program for like brain process. Like, there's like sober coaches and stuff. Like there's all kinds of stuff like that the fact of matter is that there are solutions. AAA is the most popular and I have a theory is why. First of all, it was a first one really around the

Oxford group predated AAA. But AAA became the most popular because it didn't necessarily choose like one central spiritual solution. Like it wasn't a Christian based program, it was just generally spiritual power greater than you. Yeah. And that was that was big for people. That honestly, that's the only reason I stuck around. Yeah, was because it was I was kind of able to, to use my foundations of spirituality, and apply those to recovery. But it's been around since the

1930s. It's free, which is huge. And it's widely available, it's all over the place. So a lot of times people will go told go to AAA, go to AAA, and they'll say that won't work for me, or that doesn't work for me. I've tried it and it didn't work for me. And I'd have to say that if you believe that something won't work for you. Regardless if it's AAA or any of these others we mentioned, I would say that you're right. Like, It's like that old notion that if you say you can or you can't, you're

correct. It's sort of like this self fulfilling prophecy. And I would like the most frustrating thing I've ever heard from someone is I can't do that. Yeah, the word can't drives me absolutely nuts. Like, tell me, tell me you're not ready. Tell me that. Just be honest, I'm too stubborn to listen, I'm not going to do this. Say that you won't do it. But don't tell me that you can't do it. That's self defeating. Yeah, you can. And I believe that addiction can be overcome. In many ways.

There's not one right way to recover. But you have to pick something, you have to get the work. And you have to make the choice. Here we come back to choice, you have to make a choice. Addiction may be a disease, but it's been my experience that recovery is a choice. Regardless of the method that you choose. To overcome this, new behaviors must be learned, new neural pathways must be created, environmental changes must take place.

Mindfulness and cognitive strategies have to be formed, self development must be prioritized. And you're going to have to have some kind of community to some degree people that you can talk to about this sort of thing, in nearly every single way that we just discussed, has some if not all of these factors. And it's it's crucial, it's crucial to recovery. So there is more than

one way to recover. So now that we've got the disease the choice out of the way, which I think is helpful for people if you're Yeah, like just don't know anything about this, that's some background on this. Okay. That's that's our perspective on disease concept, the choice how you how you go about recovery, because we're not I'm not a recovery coach, like I don't coach people in recovery. That's like my personal thing. I work

on my own. I can certainly talk to someone and give them reasons to recover I can give them my experience inspire them, but like the day to day work, not so much. So I just wanted to leave it at that and let people take what they want from that. But back to the the beginning of this and we're talking about what this episode is really about which is about accountability and value. sedation. So is simply stopping the substance enough? No, just shortly. No, that is my response

to that. No, it's not. It's not. It's been my experience watching this. And countless people and in my own experience prior to really getting serious about recovery is that when you took away my substance, I got pretty miserable, right? Not just like physically, but mentally and emotionally, it's like taking a baby's pacifier from them. Yep. Like I just, I was angry at

everything. It's like simply stopping the substance and not working on the underlying issues is a classic example of not understanding cause and effect. And since we're on this, cause and effect thing, this is something that I see a lot. I'll talk to people in recovery, and there's probably someone listening now, who has said this to their spouse or partner, I drink because of XYZ. It could be you name, it could be my job. It could be because my wife is mean, and she's cruel. And she's

demanding and hateful. It could be that I've got a lot of stuff going on. It could be that I had trauma in my past. It could be all kinds of reasons, right? There's a million reasons why people drink a lot of addiction is is, I would say not Well, I don't want to put it that way. A lot of addicted people have trauma, we just say that they have trauma at some point in their past.

kinds of issues. But anyway, there's, there's this issue of cause and effect. And I'm just going to say, think of it like this. Okay, let's say that you claim that you drink or use pills, because your home life is intolerable. And you're telling what you perceive to be the truth that you're, your wife or husband is withdrawn from you. They're unresponsive, they make caustic comments toward you. They're, they're they're mean, they're belittling, they're critical. Your children don't

treat you with respect. And you believe that that emotional torture is what causes you to use drugs. But that is a misunderstanding of cause and effect. Oftentimes, the reason that these people are like this is because you use drugs and alcohol. And because when you use drugs and alcohol, you are withdrawn from them, you lie to them, you abuse them emotionally, sometimes physically. You you lie, you cheat, you do all these things that put them in that position.

Yeah, but it's quick for, like addicts have a form of dyslexia like dyslexia, we all know dyslexia is right, see the word cat, you see TAC instead PAC, it's very much the same when it comes to cause and effect. We think the cause of our problems is the outside world when the fact that matter is the outside world acts as a response to our

behaviors. Most of the time, like, maybe your children don't respect you, but it's because they've seen you hitting their mothers are screaming at them or not validating them when they're upset about something, tell him the white dirt on it, like you name it, right? Like there's this this funny point that illustrates this. Abraham J torski. wrote a book called addictive thinking, which is a book about the psychology of addiction. It's really, really

good. I suggest everyone read that spouses, partners, addicts, a, like everyone should read that. But there's this. There's this this cartoon of sorts, and it's this man complaining to a woman in a bar. The man says, My wife doesn't understand me. The woman says, Well, what doesn't she understand? The man says, She doesn't understand why I drink. woman says, Well, why do you drink? The man says, because my wife doesn't understand me. It's a circular logic and this failure to understand cause and

effect. Yeah, it's like a form of dyslexia. It blows my mind. I would just ask people to try and understand that your best thinking up to this point got us here. And it has always blown my mind that addicts alcoholics alike, will sit there and tell you with their life crumbling around them. I got this. I know what's best. I'm going to make the right choices. Are you sure about that? All right. Are we sure about that? I don't think

so. I don't think so. Like I had to get to the point where I realized that my best thinking and all my genius got me to where I am. Maybe it's time to listen to outsiders. Maybe it's time to consider different perspectives. Maybe it's time to listen to something like this. So if you are like I'm proud of

you. This is huge. Yeah, but you're listening to something like this but it is safe to say that your best thinking at this point needs to be questioned than you might might say Do you drink because your partner is cold or distant or confrontational? unloving, whatever, right? Maybe they're cold because you haven't spoken

intimately in years. Maybe your outburst during drinking sprees or using drugs has been really really hurtful and your promises to stop have gone unfulfilled, and the trust is gone due to infidelity while under the influence. Maybe your your boss is a jerk because you rarely sleep and sleep enough to be

effective at work. Maybe you're hungover all the time, and you don't deal with stress well, and you snap on people, like we have to start to look at our behaviors and take accountability for our actions. This is the intro and to doing that, yeah, we're going to expound upon this here in just a moment we talk about the relationship. This is what we're really doing here like we are addiction relationship experts, this is what we do. So like while drinking may have fixed

some of the immediate issues. It will not suddenly make us vulnerable and honest and non abusive. That work takes time and effort. We talked about neuroplasticity, those are behaviors that you learn. You can unlearn stuff, you can learn new stuff. Yeah, just have faith that your mind is a beautiful machine. It's an amazing organ. And it can do this. Yes. Like, I'm not special. I just did the work. Right. That's it? Yeah. So I would urge you stop looking for the shortcut and just do the

frickin work. Just do the work, like everyone else has to do do the work. You're not special. You're not unique. You're not a special flower, just do the work. Like you're not going to fix it on your own. You're just not you're, if you've been doing this for 30 years, you're not going to figure it out. Man would have figured it out by now. Right? Let's be real. Yeah, right. Okay, so here's what we discovered about how the disease concept is hurtful to spouses

and addicts alike. Okay, spouses, partners, and even addicts alike. Just okay, if the disease concept helps get someone sober, then what's the harm? Like really like? What's the harm in it? It helps people get sober. If it diminishes shame and guilt, then what's the harm in it? If we're accurately describing in scientific terms, what's going on? Then? What's the harm in that? Here's the problem with that is that the abuse that occurs in addiction and how spart spouses partners

and loved ones are treated? is washed away, we completely disregard that. We don't ask anyone to take responsibility for it because it came from a diseased person. And once you say disease, everyone has to back off. Because you don't treat disease people that way. We treat them with compassion. Remember, they have a disease. I'm challenging that. No, we should look at these things. We should be asking questions. Right. And we should be asking our partners. Are you okay?

Yeah. Because you've dealt with abuse? Yeah. It doesn't mean it doesn't make it any better that it came from a disease person, like Did it make it better for you that I had a disease when I called you names? I said ugly things.

That's what happens in treatment centers around the world that happens in therapy clinics, this happens all over the place. It is an imperfect understanding of what's really happening. Yeah, because it's coming from people who studied this stuff, and I understand it. They understand it as they studied it, but they've never lived it. The subjective experience of people like me that have recovered,

says otherwise. Yep. I was aware to some degree that I was being controlling and ugly and lying and doing all of these things. You're telling me that I get a pass. Now, some people will take that pass because they listen, I have a disease. I don't have to take responsibility. It was the disease. And they'll look at you and say, you can't be mad at me for that. I have a disease. That's not fair. Then you hear the doctor. He said I have a disease. Bull. I'm calling BS on

every bit of it. Right? That's not the way it works. Yeah. That is not the way it works. But I mean, even 12 Step groups are bad about this, like the one that is out there for spouses Al Anon. It's been around for quite some time is really big on this disease concept. Yeah. And I think it's useful in some ways, it's not all bad. I think some really great recovery takes place there. It does help diminish the personal aspect of this like he's not necessarily doing it to you. He's just doing it.

If you think that you're gonna get off that easy because you have a disease and we don't get to talk about all the cheating and infidelity, all the the abuse, whether it be emotional, or physical, the lying the gaslighting, the manipulation, you don't get to excuse it, just because you had a disease, you don't in doing that, what you're telling your partner is that you don't get to feel that way. You're not allowed to feel that way. But their feelings are real, they are real, this stuff

happened to them. It doesn't make their effects, any less real, doesn't make their trauma, their PTSD, their anxiety, their depression, their suicidal ideation, because of this stuff any less real. So we're telling these people, you don't get to feel this way, because they had a disease. And that is bullshit. Yeah, that is ridiculous. I, if I, before I leave this earth, I want to make sure that people know that, that spouses and partners know that that you can feel however you need to feel

Yeah. And so if you've done these things, your partner, you think that you're just going to get off easy because they have a disease. It doesn't work that way. If you do that, I can tell you what happens. They will a lot of people will hear that partners anyway. And they'll be like, Okay, that's what these professionals told me, it's what I'm going to do. Years and years later, this stuff comes back up that right there, it comes back up, it doesn't go away

completely. No, it doesn't like the disease brain idea is pushed incredibly hard on people. Because it creates compassion rather than resentment. We talked about this in the opening. And without other options, people just buy in. But all it's doing is putting the trauma on a credit card. And one day, it has to get paid off with interest because it collects and it compounds over time. The sooner you deal with your trauma, the better off you'll

be. So if we're telling spouses, they don't get to feel this way, because it came from a disease person, you need to just let that go. What are we doing to them? What does that narrative doing to them? That's my concern. It's always been my concern. I know it's been yours. You felt this way. When they were telling you this stuff. You're like, alright, letting that go. Oh, yeah. Your mind. I'm not letting that go. Yeah. You know what he said to me? You

know what he did to me? Yeah, like, we don't realize the the effects this stuff has on people. So this whole conversation for addicts and for spouses and partners gets so freakin muddy. Because they're hurt, they're actually hurt. They don't feel comfortable in their own skin, their own thoughts, they have lost their competence, their self esteem is gone. Because of this treatment that we put them through. And they're told you need to rub dirt on it. Dude, he has a disease. Let's focus on Him.

Enough about you. Let's focus on him. That's what the treatment community as a whole has done to spouses. Yeah. And so many words. I mean, obviously, it's a little extreme what I'm talking about here, but yeah, that's essentially it. Yeah. So. And also, like, the information is coming from, it's decentralized. Like, depending on where you heard it, who you heard it from, how many people are saying it, it all seems to distance from the fact about what's really going on. Your perception is

what really matters here. Your perception matters, your perception is your reality. And whenever we just say this to make it easier for the addict to cope with their behavior and and for a family to understand what was going on. We are it's it's like a zero sum game like they win, but you lose. Yeah, the addict wins. But you lose. Yeah, an addict can affect exponentially more people than just addiction. I mean, their addiction affects them. Yes. But their behaviors affect sometimes

up to 25 people. Yeah, in their lifetime that the course of their use in negative ways. These people are going to have fallout from that abuse. But we just got to wipe it clean. I just I don't buy it. I don't buy it. Here's what they're told, essentially, your loved one has a disease, just like cancer, they can't help it. Everything they do is because of the disease. It's heartless and futile to be hurt by any of it because you're hurt by the actions of the disease person.

So you got to give them a pass. They didn't mean to do it. They need your help. Not additional. They don't need more problems in their life. They don't need you nagging about what happened back then. Nobody has Time for your concerns. They're not valid, time is ticking. We got to focus on this addict, this alcoholic, and we got to help them. How would you feel? How would you feel?

as you detach. And they experienced natural consequences of their action, because you don't allow them to treat you a certain way anymore,

course you do. Like you don't need to hammer that home is it's only them though. Yeah. Because the fact that I gaslight you and I lied to lies, and I hid things from you. And I told you whenever you addressed a valid concern with me, there is no problem, right? To the extent that there might be a problem. You're the problem. Yeah. And

ways you can't imagine. You've damaged their self esteem, you have damaged their self worth, you have damaged their competence, you have taken away any bit of empowerment that they had. And they feel like they're scum, like oh my god, I'm I'm the abuser. I'm the crazy one. I'm the problem, when I knew damn well, that I was just lying to you to get you off my back. So I could keep running my game. Yeah, that is a fact. And that's coming from someone that did it. So I can sit here and say that

others can too. Yeah, I don't think that we realize that we what we've done first of all, yeah, but I think another part of it is that the disease model excuses us of this behavior, right? And the consequence of that is that spouses partners and loved ones suffer. Yes, it's a zero sum game where the addict wins, and the spouse loses. And I don't believe in that. I believe in a collaborative model of recovery. Yes. Which we are going to get into, in part two

of this episode. Yes. So one hour in, we've covered some things that I hope that you loved. We will release another episode on Friday, which is a part two to this part two. So part two, be part two, A, we'll just call Okay, there you go. Okay. I don't want to just I don't Yeah, it gets too long people just disappear on us. Right. But so that that kind of lays the groundwork for where we

go from him from here. So we are going to learn as addicts as partners who struggle with substance abuse disorder, how we can support our partners and their recovery is well, and they can support us in hours. This can be a collaborative model, where everyone wins. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game. I don't believe in that. I don't believe that. I win, you lose. That's not how relationships work. That's not how marriages work. Why should recovery work

that way? If you're in a relationship with somebody love, it makes absolutely no sense to me. So we're trying to change that. So come back for the next one. Be looking forward to that here in the next 48 hours. We should have it out. If you're listening to this on a Wednesday on Friday morning, you will get a chance to listen to this next one. So, until next time, I am Matt imp. We'll see you