The most important piece I think anyone can the fear of take one thing away from this episode. Forgiveness as a gift to give yourself, you're not giving the other person necessarily anything. You're freeing yourself from that. That ik that resentment and anger. Yes. But we're like, programmed to think that forgiveness is like a gift. We're giving that person instead of ourselves
Welcome back. Well come back to another
episode of till the wheels fall off. I'm Matt. I'm paying. We're laughing at me. While I'm starting to wear on YouTube now and I have to acknowledge the fact that that things over there or I'll forget Hey, it's tough to do. Yeah. Anyway, we are back from a trip to the land of the most glorious weather I've ever experienced this time of year. It's like 110 degrees here and up there. It was like in the daytime 72 Perfectly blue skies
crisp air. In the evenings. It was like 55 degrees, which like hoodie weather in the evenings. I'm on the record of saying this every every night should require a hoodie. That should just be a thing.
We wear hoodies Anyway, look,
we do but we keep the house super cold to do it. God needs to rework his plan about weather and just make sure that no matter where you are in the world every night is 55 degrees. Pretty weather so you can have s'mores and campfires every night. Anyway, it was great. We got up we got out of here
at expensive oysters. Why oysters? $3.50 apiece.
Yeah, can you imagine that? The first guy that found an oyster was like, What is this trash? Little did he know that one day someone would charge us $3 a pop for that little thing? Good. They were delicious. We ate. I think we ate most of the seafood in the Atlantic last week. Yeah, for sure.
We have a lot of mercury in our bodies right now.
Man. It was so good though. We ate. Let me tell you we ate oysters. We ate crab. We ate lobster. We ate pizza pasta. We ate ice cream. All of it. Yeah, remember? You don't remember? Okay. Well,
we did. All right. Well, it was a great trip. We ate a lot of yummy food. Your
ice cream was blue. You remember it now? Super blue. No. Yeah.
I eat blue ice cream. What
are you even talking Ben and Jerry's up and man? Amazing. Yeah,
we went to Ben and Jerry's. It was like a marshmallow ice cream. Yeah, it was good. Okay. Sorry,
call me back.
I forgot we went to Ben and Jerry's. My bad.
Yeah. Anyway, it was amazing. It was amazing man. Much needed. Yeah. And we're back to discuss what listeners have requested from us an episode on forgiveness.
Mm hmm. I can't say it without thinking it through it. Forgive this. More than say and sorry.
If you guys have ever seen the movie. I think it's just friends. Just friends Ryan Ryan Reynolds and Anna Faris. I
love her. She's so freakin hilarious. And
the moment you said I want to do an episode on forgiveness. I was reading your message and this has been playing in my head for a week now. It's
gonna be in my head. So thanks, Darren. So
it was we talked about this. I'm trying my best not to go back there. And if you haven't seen the movie, check it out. But anyway, an episode on forgiveness what forgiveness is, how to achieve it. Do people deserve it? Do you deserve it? How do you give it what is it? So we're gonna get into it? Let's do it. All right. I'm leaning on you heavy here. Okay, because I'm the jerk that made you have to forgive. Therefore, this is your episode.
Oh, forgive you right? Yeah,
I'm getting a look right now that she still has yet to do this.
No, I would totally forgiven you. But it's a huge process of forgiveness is like it's not what a lot of people think. Do you think that when you forgive somebody you're like, condoning their behavior and everything is peachy keen. And you're supposed to let go and whatever. But forgiveness is totally different than that. Yeah, it's not this nice wrapped up little package of just like we're cool. Let's go back to the way things were right. It is very situational. Situ
situational. Totally. Okay, got it. Nailed. Right, right. $5 word. Suck it vocabulary kiss my ass.
She actually doesn't.
Okay, well, this is just something that's like, I want people to understand that forgiveness just doesn't happen overnight. It's not like a one time event where you just like say, Okay, I'm just gonna forgive somebody and everything is cool. I mean, it really requires some like patience and empathy and actual self reflection.
Yeah, yeah. No, it does. I think Do you agree with that? Yes, absolutely. I think that when most people think about forgiveness, because I'm most people, I think, um, it's sort of like, forget about it, and you just move on, and you sweep that under the rug and let's go about our business. There are also times where you've been put into position where you might call Don't quote, forgive someone, and you can never really actually do it. So
there's it's dynamic. There's a lot of moving parts to this, as it pertains to our conversation, this came from a group of people that are dealing with a loved one. Generally a partner, I think, I don't think I'm at a line saying naturally a partner of theirs, who has done them dirty, multiple times has done them wrong over the years, time and time again. And they want to forgive. But they're not sure a if they should be how to go about it. And what does that mean moving forward?
Yeah. And this is also for forgiving yourself as well. A lot of people in our group that have asked about this, they've had issues with forgiving themselves.
Yeah, there's stuff that we've done. It's tough to forgive yourself for
right you hold on too tight. Oh,
I'm never letting that go. You just live with the shame that goes along with it. Right, which gets you stuck. Okay, so tell me what forgiveness is then. Okay. What is healthy forgiveness look like?
So letting go of anger and resentment towards someone who has wronged you wronged you? That's like the whole point of forgiveness. You want to let go of that anger when you are not when you haven't forgiven? Somebody? I was going to say something else, and it did not pop out right in my mouth. I'm sorry. When you haven't forgiven somebody, you're usually pretty frickin angry. Right? Like you're so mad at this person that you want them to feel pain?
Yeah, this is the biatch of resentment, resent. I've heard more, you know, quirky things about resentment and my decade in AAA than you could ever imagine. But resentment is like feeding a stray cat. I used to hate it when they go away when you stop feeding them. Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Yeah.
We can rationally say these things. I know I've said that's why I'm like pausing because you know where I'm going, Oh, leading you
into this. Ended up for early.
Told me to do this for 10
For Kinnear, tell me why I was wrong and saying those things at the time.
I wasn't ready to forgive somebody or forgive their issues, because I thought I was condoning something.
And the fact that this behavior was still happening. Yeah, that
was gonna say that, too, is that the it's a continual pattern of behaviors that never change. So it's hard to forgive somebody who's continually doing the same thing over and over again and hurting you
forgive someone in the traditional sense that, that we're just like, we're good. shaking their hands. Hey, we're fine now. Right?
Because that's what forgiveness was. Yeah. But that's not what it is. So. So, did you want me to say what else it is?
I teed that up for you. We've been doing this for a minute now doing what we've got 10,000 people that listen to this thing? We're not Yeah.
Goal is this.
Okay, so I'm just gonna say it's a process of healing and moving forward. It's acknowledging the pain caused by someone's actions. Yeah. It's empathizing with the person who wronged you. That's hard. It's setting boundaries to protect yourself from further harm. It's releasing uncomfortable emotions and finding peace. It's taking responsibility for your own healing and happiness. And it's a gift to yourself. It's a gift you give yourself not necessarily the other person.
That right there. Yep. All right, their most important piece I think anyone can the fear of taking one thing away from this episode. Forgiveness as a gift you give yourself you're not giving the other person necessarily anything. You're freeing yourself from that. That ik that resentment and that anger,
yes. But we're, like, programmed to think that forgiveness is like, a gift. We're giving that person instead of ourselves.
Yeah, it's for you. Right. Not for them. Right. Not for them. Yeah. Like you make amends for other people. But letting go of resentment is for you.
Yeah. So I'm gonna say these things that forgiveness isn't so that you can see that this is not there's a gray area with all of this. It's not all or nothing black or white. You know, it's always a gray area.
Can I say something? Yeah, no quick go for it.
So before you get to what forgiveness isn't, um, let me just relate this back to the things that I've worked through with. I don't know how many people over the years. Generally, when people have a drinking problem and addiction of some kind, it's tied to a lot of deep seated resentment. And so we work through a lot of this stuff, and a list of resentments like what makes you angry, what makes you tick? What do you stay
mad at? Because a lot of people when they feel that that feeling that anger and that that resentment, better term, they want to go away and so they know it takes tough to do it. Some of them are like very justified like there's some people have been physically or sexually abused, right. There's some others where it's like, hate the IRS. Okay, we all do, what are we gonna do about that, you know, death and taxes, death in taxes, two guarantees in life. So, but they can eat away as in
different ways. And the one thing that's that I wanted to make the point of is that when these people are angry when I was doing this stuff, too, and I had my anger and resentment, the only person that really suffered was me that you know, like, I was drinking at things and drinking at people and I was trying to take it away but who suffered me and my loved ones, right? It's it's a screwed up cycle we put ourselves in, it's no
different for the codependent, we get so normal into our anger, like that's the only it's comfortable to be in that anger and anger, comfortable. Sometimes it is because it's what you know, it's what you've normalized. It's like that's your pattern of behavior. And it's scary to get out of it. Because you don't know what it's like on the other side.
Yeah, that's a you put it perfectly there's such there's something so comforting about being in anger. Like for me, it was always a, it felt like a familiar place for me for some reason, like, I don't know if I was just wired that way from the get go. But I just always felt like I was sharper when I was angry. And like I was more I had for all purpose. Yeah, you just said it. Like, I felt like I had some semblance of control faculty when I was mad at
people. And I was doing things to spite other people like it. It kind of feels good, in a way. Yeah,
it's like a release, but it's dangerous, very dangerous, because it gets worse and worse and worse, and then it becomes a very unhealthy outlet.
Alright, so I think that's I think those are those were nice, little subtext to that. So what was what you were about to talk about, which is, what is forgiveness? Not? forgiveness isn't what?
Ignoring or denying the harm caused by someone's actions? And that's
deep was can we dig into that for just a second? Yeah. So when you forgive someone, you're not ignoring or denying yourself that these things happened? Yeah. That's powerful, right? That's huge.
It's not a one time event that erases the past. So what I said earlier, it's like it's a process. It's not something that can be happened like that. It's not that simple. excusing or justifying the harm caused by someone's actions. That's not what forgiveness is absolving the person of responsibility for their actions.
You're not doing that when you forgive.
But it feels like it feels that way. I don't know.
Why do we feel like we forgive someone, we're just it's was condoning like we're condoning. It's kind of like that validation, verse condoning thing.
It's like we're allowing them to win when we know we've been harmed.
Oh, yeah. It's like you just want on me? I just gave you that. Yeah, it's an ego thing. You get to chalk that one up on your little list of people that I've screwed over in life, and I'm that person. Yeah. Not on my watch. Pow.
Right. So also, like, it's not allowing the person to continue to hurt you. Did I say that before? No, no did the other one because that was a big one, allowing the person to continue to hurt you. Like you're not this doesn't mean we're allowing this to happen. It's all for you. It's not for the other person. Yeah. I'm relying on someone else to make things right for you. And then like we said earlier, a gift you give to the person who wronged
you. It's not your it's the forgiveness is all about you. It's almost, it's not selfish, but it is a very big form of self care. What's that? Forgiving serving
someone? Oh, it's huge. Yes. It's vital, I think, to release yourself of that anger so that you can live in peace and you can live without that resentment that feels the anger and the spite and the the thoughts like I'm one of these people that I can have conversations in my head, like full blown conversations with someone when I've been wronged by somebody. I can replay that tape. And like, I will talk to myself like if you filmed me my car, you would think that I'm
insane. No, we all do that. It's not just me here that went out
on a limb. I was making sure no, that's pretty normal. That we put these fake scenarios in our head, man,
I know we fight with people and argue with people and stand up for myself and I will do all these things. But in that moment, like I'm angry, like, if you were to take my polls, it's higher. Like I'm not I'm not at peace. I'm not thinking about being present. I'm not thinking about what I need to do to be better today. I'm just freaking angry. It's almost like an addiction in itself. Exactly. It's kind of good. Exactly. When we forgive, it's for us. Yep. Be selfish about it. It is self
care. Yes, it is self care. All right. So I think that's that's huge. We've kind of distinguished what forgiveness actually is what it is. And I think what it isn't is more powerful than what it actually is great. Because what it isn't really defines all the things that like the misnomers we have about forgiveness in itself. It's like, all these things you think it is it's not it's not it's not just forgiving this person for like continued abuse.
It's not forgiving them for allowing to continue to hurt
badly. It's not allowing them it's not excusing or justifying. Right. Which I've always felt that way like no, I am. I'm supposed to be mad right now. Yeah, I deserved to be mad right now. I was treated poorly. Yeah. How dare you. I need to be angry. I don't want to forgive you. How dare you I allow that happen? Why would I let you win? Yeah,
like we're sitting here bashing anger, like really bad, like, angry and all bad. Anger serves a purpose. I think that it's a red flag. Yeah, anger serves a purpose. It's I mean, I think that all emotions are created equally. And so like, I look at them all, at least they serve a purpose in me. So like, when I'm angry, it's obvious that I've been harmed. Sometimes it's sometimes I'm in I'm in the
wrong and it's my ego. But other times it's it's there to let me know that like someone's crossed a boundary that maybe I didn't even know existed there, you know? Yep. So it is important, it is important, but if you keep it around too long, it will just rot you from the inside. Yeah, man. It's like, it's terrible. So when it comes to forgiveness, possibly the most difficult thing, and let me provide some
context. So I'm thinking about the way that I've worked through this myself and the way that I work other people through this, when I'm working through the steps with them, coaching them sobriety and whatnot. There have been people that I've worked with who have been deeply harmed by others. And I say that because I can pretty much always find someone's part in a disagreement where they have a resentment. Like, if you're resentful at the IRS, like that
stupid example. Yeah. Because you didn't file your taxes correctly, you're mad because you hit income? Like, come on. You have a part in that? Yeah. What about when you're a child and you're abused? Yeah, you don't have a part in that. And so you sit there, and your heart just breaks for this person, because it's like, they didn't do anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong. This person is just, you know, revealing their soul and like, what this
has done to them. And then in that moment, I'm like, the only part that you have in this is that you are now in your 40s. And this defines you, and that you're not a survivor, you are still living in this. And so when we, when I worked through this stuff, how do you forgive something like that? How do you forgive someone that has gaslight you into insanity? And stolen 10 years of your life? How do you forgive someone that's lied to your face? How do you forgive someone that's put
your children in danger? Or your lives in danger? How do you forgive someone that's just, you know, done you wrong for years, and years and years. So a way that I found effective is you have to separate the abuse from the abuser. So the abuse cannot be forgotten, nor do I think it should be forgotten. But the abuser is different. You can forgive an abuser. And the way you do that is you have to look at someone who is causing abuse. As someone who is deeply hurt themselves, like the old saying,
hurt people hurt people. It's very much like that, where you've got someone who is rather than looking at them as a monster who has just caused you harm, you have to think of that person is incredibly sick and form some sort of empathy. Yeah, now in the situation where you've been sexually abused as a child, that's incredibly effing difficult, right? That's incredibly difficult to know that this person is so sick, that they would harm a child,
but they're out there. And these people are sick, you have to realize that normal people don't act this way. Sick people act this way sick people cause abuse, people who are deeply disturbed, cause abuse and in just maybe a glimmer of that I can find some empathy sometimes, just enough to say, I can forgive you, but I will never forgive the abuse nor forget it. And nor do I have to, you don't have to forgive the abuse. That's what boundaries are for
right moving forward. Are rules of engagement for what it's like to be in a relationship with me. And I can see your face now and you're kind of reflecting on this stuff and like, living through this like I would How did you know? I know you man. I'm sorry, keep going. I know what you're gonna say before you say it live together for like ever. Hold eyes like raised in a cage together, basically, you know, like a quick break in the action to let you know about an exciting development in the Tufo
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back to the action. But anyway, I would love for you to open up a little bit and talk about what we went through and what I put you through and how you were able to forgive or Have you forgiven at all? I don't know. Like Have you forgiven it all?
Yes, I have forgiven I have forgiven you because you've changed your ways. That's the difference. You have been able to show me that you don't treat me how you treated me before. That's kind of different. So how do you if the hard part is forgiving people who are continually hurting you? Yeah, that's the hard part. Yeah, so how can you do that? I have some guides on that. But yeah, but for me personally, like within our situation, it did take a long time for me to forgive you.
But I, I just admired you for being open and honest and, and working on what you've done to hurt me that you don't do that anymore. So yeah, I forgave you forgive you for the lies and the manipulation and all of it.
And as the abuser, I had to come to terms with the fact that I had done these things and make amends proper amends, which is, you know, proper apology has three parts. Yeah, three parts. What I did was wrong, I feel terribly that I've hurt you, and what can I do to make that right. And in our case, it was
living amends. It's like, there's nothing you can do to take back what you did, like, there's nothing you can do that will make me feel okay about putting our daughter in danger, taking her to drug dealers houses, and driving drunk and then with the family in the car, like I could never make that right. But the one thing I could do is make a solemn oath to you to be better every single day, and to make living amends for that damage. That's all he can do you hurt someone that
terribly hard thing? Well, you're worth it. You are
worth it there.
So separating abuse from the abuser does not mean that you excuse or justify their actions. In the slightest, it means you're recognizing that people are incredibly complex, and that the person who hurt you is dealing with their own struggles as well. Yep. And their own challenges, their own difficulties. That's, that's how you do it. And in that moment, you will be able to find some glimmer of empathy. Yes. To say, I can forgive that person. The actions though. I will not
tolerate, right. That's how you moving forward. That's that's essentially draws your boundary for you. Yeah, like I can forgive you. But this app is he can't he be kidding me. Dude. I will cut you. Damn. So if you're struggling to separate the abuse from the abuser, I mean, legitimately, it may be helpful to seek the advice of a therapist or counselor Yep. Coach, someone who has been
through this before? Because it is every every issue like this is incredibly complex, and no one can, it may be tough for you to just look at your situation with your own eyes and say, Oh, that's that's what you do. You have to have different set of eyes to look at that. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so when we're talking about like the how of this, how in the world do you forgive someone who is continuing to hurt you or someone who has hurt you badly and has not really made that
right? How do you how do you cope with this? How do you deal with this stuff?
Okay, so we actually have a guide on our website to help people go through this process and I've I've actually done something similar to this with some situations in my life and it's been very beneficial because it helps you really look at the situation and different perspectives, so I'm just gonna kind of go through this quickly.
I was the big guy. This thing's like I knew it was like, I think it's on a computer. You
don't know what our guys look Like damn on a computer.
This happened to me earlier to I printed out some emails to send letters out to the kids. And it was like four pages. I'm like, wow, only computer doesn't seem that long.
Okay, well, the guide will give you a lot of information that we have discussed on the podcast was of information. First thing you're gonna do is identify the person or situation that you need to forgive. So it could be a specific person who has wronged you or a situation that has caused you pain or trauma.
It can also be an institution, people places things, nouns, any of those, okay? Just saying Yeah, cuz there's some people like they're not mad necessarily the person they're mad at a whole like a group a thing. And it's, I don't mean to make light of this, but want to hear a funny one that was on mine. Insurance. Your stupid insurance. Oh my god, they're the only people who are allowed to be racist, sexist in ages, and they call it risk.
This is I don't understand, you get so bent out of shape over the dumbest things, but like serious shit in our lives, where it's like really affecting you, you're just like, oh, no, you know, patriots, hell can grind an axe there. It's
not true.
I get mad about those things. And the dumb stuff.
That's, that's such. That's like, I guess that's where the yin and yang comes in, though with us and where we kind of balance each other out because I deal with the heavy shit HSP in me, I guess is that what it is?
There is something to that I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but your depth of processing and your awareness of subtleties, does play into the way that you feel and process and resent and feel anger for sure. I'm a dummy. You are not. Thanks. I like how you saved by simpleton. You are know a lot of the times your brain works a hell of
a relationship. It's always been like Paige get over it. You You know, you like I said earlier grind an axe? I still don't understand what the fuck that means. But you've said that to me in our relationship probably 100 times you don't understand
what that means? No. Okay, so like think of like the old blacksmiths. You know, like the dude. Yeah, thing. Yeah, those guys would grind an axe to sharpen it. Okay. And so as you're grinding the axe, you're sharpening it, you're thinking about who you're going to kill with it. You're like, Oh, yeah. Okay, so that bears head off for stealing my food. Understand
me when it comes to like resentment and things. It's like, No, I'm just not allowing people to, you know, step all over me. I'm not going to be a doormat anymore.
And that's why I respect you. That's why I've always valued the way that you look at principles and values and you're like, this, these are the rules, okay? And you just take biome, my role, where I have these like, sometimes flexible morals and I struggle with flexible
moral you are when you told me that my moral compass is too high,
too strong, man. Sometimes, sometimes you gotta cheat a little bit. Sometimes you gotta cross the crosswalk when that little white walking dudes not on the thing, you know? No one's gonna care. No one around here, okay?
I'm not gonna give you shit. But I've forgiven you for all the shit and I still love you. And I'm still here for you. And I'm like, You still live up to my values. So kiss my ass when you keep telling me that I grind an axe or whatever, then I'll quit
saying it. Apparently, this is a triggering topic.
I'm sorry. I told you this was a triggering topic. Yeah, she
did going into this. She's like, get ready, because I'm like, snap. Okay, so
you tried to get me to do a forgiveness episode. God since like, the very beginning, like from the very beginning, and I'm like, I'm not ready for that. I'm just gonna be real with everybody. I'm not ready for that. Because it is a difficult
topic. It's an intense man,
for a lot of reasons. But anyway, so I'll go back and let's go back into the steps because I checked here
for about how I did that. I'm sorry, I had this I had this gift about sidetracking. I did it. Oh, you did? Yeah.
Anyway, okay, so you're identifying the person or situation or place as Matt says, Next, you're going to reflect on the harm that was caused, like how has it impacted you, you know, write down your thoughts and feelings. With no judgment, or censorship, like put it all on paper, I'll be honest with yourself about the pain and anger you may be feeling, y'all.
I've did this for years in my journal, my pain and my anger and my feelings here are all over a journal that I have in my room that I wrote probably a year straight, actually. And it may not make sense, but I was very open with how I felt on things.
Hugely important. I mean, there really is just like it's cathartic when you're doing that stuff it is and don't hold back how you process don't hold back have to feel it. Yep.
Alright, next, you're gonna practice empathy, which is what we've been talking about, you know, try to put yourself in the shoes of the person who hurt you, and consider what may have motivated their actions. Were they struggling with their own pain or trauma? Or are they acting out of fear, insecurity? You know, just look, try. I try to do that and I try to put myself in other People shoes all
the time. It's almost a it's almost it almost goes too far for me, you know, in a curse where it's like, I'll put myself in the other person's empathy, maybe where it's like, oh, man, was I really wrong in this? Maybe they are right about this. And you know, I question everything and then I really lose myself because I'm putting myself into their shoes too much. Yeah, there's a line. And it is
like, so once again, separating the abuser from the abuse, write down what the abuse was in the previous steps. So you can see that and you feel that you remember that. And then you go to the abuser. And like, this is a common one for a lot of people. When it comes to parents like, I mean, no one's parents are perfect, right? I think that probably the most common thing that people end up in therapy over is like their parents. That's like the whole
joke, right? Like, when you mess with your kids, you like that, that's gonna cost me 20 years of therapy one day, you know, stuff like that. Like when you mess with them. And anyway, so it's a joke, but it's not. So when you think about your parents. Remember, these are people too, and there's no telling what kind of upbringing they had to cause them to display the type of behavior that has led to you being and they're
just treatment, just remember, this is not you can doning their behavior, no literally having empathy for somebody and just seeing sure it might, where they might have wronged
why, like, why the abuse isn't okay, we're just trying to just have some empathy, because empathy is essential in order to forgive it is,
it is. All right. Next, you're gonna write a love letter to the person that you need to forgive. And this is for your benefit, no one sees this, but it is not necessarily for the other person to see, you're going to express your feelings about what happened, how it impacted you and be clear and specific. But don't blame or attack.
Just owning your feelings like this is how I felt when this right, right state the facts, and this is how I felt
Yes. And then you're going to focus on forgiveness. So in the letter, express your willingness to forgive the person who hurt you, this doesn't mean that you forget what happened. Or that you can tell on their actions, it simply just means that you're ready to let go of the anger and resentment and move forward with your life. That's the whole point and purpose of this.
So you said something you said a really crucial word in there. But willingness is different than the action of actually forgiving, right? And the process of becoming willing to forgive someone to actually forgiving someone can take quite some time. Oh, yeah. But just being willing to forgive them. Just give yourself that I'm willing to forgive. Yeah, that's so freeing, and it's non committal. You don't have to go out and do it necessarily. But being willing, takes a huge
burden off of your heart. And then time leads to the act of actually forgetting them. Yeah.
Yep. So after that, you just take the time to reflect on the process. Reflect on your feelings? Yeah. And you may want to revisit this letter and make changes as you continue to work through your emotions. Yeah. Because things can change over time and stuff. So
complex. It's so complex. And if it's someone that you interact with on a regular basis, then it's going to change over time. Absolutely. The guide on our website does, it's got a ton of good information here. And I want to dissect every piece of it. But we've talked
about boundaries before. And so when we talk about abuse, when we talk about needing to forgive someone, I think that sort of like this elephant in the room is like, what if this person, like lives in my house with me, and like they do this crap every day, but I want to forgive them. I don't want to be sick. I don't want to live with this resentment. It's eating me away from the inside. How do I forgive that person? I think that you've got to start with
boundaries. Yep, you have to start with boundaries or the you're never going to get to the point where you're able to forgive because it's still ongoing abuse. You give forgiveness happens when it stops when the abuse stopped when you've either put an end to it. Or you've put a boundary up so firm that you're not able to touch you anymore. Remember, boundaries are for you. Yep. They're not for the other person. They're for you. Forgiveness is also for you.
These are self care tools. Yes. These aren't like bullets to use against somebody, right? This is how to save yourself, save your mind, save your peace. You know, get to the point where it's like, you can't afford the rent in my head. As a matter of fact, I'm evicting you from it. Yeah, get out of my head. But that's not possible without boundaries. I think it's, we've got an episode on that. We've got guides on that as well. And they
go hand in hand. Yes. Because I think that's the obvious question we're going to get is like, Well, how do you forgive someone that still does this every day and they're gonna do it again tomorrow, right?
You don't where you're putting your boundaries up and you can change that but you
can still do a piece of this thing. I think you can still find the empathy piece of it. But you don't have tolerate it
that's very similar to detaching with love as well. Yes, it is. Yeah. It all all. They all go in the same sort of realm. Yeah, yes. And I, we really didn't touch on how to forgive yourself and things. And I think this is all very it's very similar process. I mean,
it is it is like when you look at okay, forgiving myself, what did I do? What did I do to myself? What did I do to other people that I can't forgive myself for? And I think that that empathy piece, you have to look at who who that who that person was in that moment when that when that happened?
Speak for yourself, what is your experience with forgiveness of yourself?
It's been really tough. Like, I'm really so I thought about this. I was like, Have I forgiven myself? Like, remember, we had this? God, man have I actually, I think in some ways, I have never forgiven myself for the actual actions. Like when I think about them, I cringe. Like, it makes me want to cry thinking about the shit that I did. But like, am I'm able to forgive myself in that moment. Yeah, because that was a really sick person who had a lot of pain they hadn't processed or
dealt with. And I have empathy for that. I can deal with that. But the actions know, like, how can you you know? So in some ways, I think I've forgiven myself. Because I was able to understand that time in my life that I was incredibly sick. And I was dealing with a lot of really difficult stuff. I just didn't know how no one taught me how to deal with this stuff. You know, it wasn't like, I didn't have people around me, like telling me like, here's how you deal with anger. Here's how you
deal with sadness. Here's how you deal with depression. Like I didn't have that. So I can have empathy for that guy. And I can, I can deal with that. Like, I can understand that I've met people the same way, who don't mean to hurt other people. But you do. Because you were really sick in the moment like, well, not a bad person, just a sick person. And that's how I was able to forgive myself. But I've never forgiven and I don't think I'll ever forgive myself. Like for the specific actions like
that? Nah, probably not.
That's deep baby. I forgiven you for your stuff.
I mean, I appreciate that. And like I'm extremely grateful for but the same time it's like, yeah, but this never should have happened.
Yeah, I understand.
That stuff, man, in coming from an abuser, like I hope that someone listening can hear this. And like, I hope that one day you get this from your abuser. I do. Like, I hope I'm not like tooting my own horn over here. Like, I'm not like proud of myself for this, I just hope one day you get the closure that the person that has harmed you truly wants to be different, and they want to make right by you. And they respect you enough to do that. And if they don't, and we've got, you know, we've got
options for there, too. But I hope that everyone gets that, like I, I think if there's any gift I can give my family it's that. It's that like, Man, I really, really, really, really am sorry for doing that. And living amends. Yeah, I'm living and living amends every single day. You know, that's, that's what I'm after. Now. It's it's incredibly tough to think about stuff that you did, like, Nah, man, and I don't think I should forgive myself for that stuff. Because if I do, like, lest I
forget and do it again. You know, like, I need to keep that crap fresh, sometimes, like gray area there remind myself with the stuff that happened? Right? It's important, right? But anyway, I
think thank you for sharing that.
That's tough. Um, thank you for asking. I think it's something I've never really, really explored, like out loud.
All right. Said it. Yeah.
I'm just giving you space.
Okay. Um, I think it's worth mentioning that today. June 26. Is pages birthday. And real quick, funny story storytime. So this, this is like, five years ago or so was about five years ago. This happened, right? You probably know exactly. Right, about five years. Five years ago, y'all. Like we're super close and like, great relationship and everything. And, like, I am such a creature of habit. Like I wake up every morning about four and I go to the gym and like I do
the same thing. It's like, I go get my coffee. I sit there and I scan the news. Three cups of coffee. I'm out the door. And on June 26. Like 2018 I got up and I did this. And I left the house. And you were up at the time. Yeah, you're up and she didn't say a word to me. She didn't give me a look like nothing. I just like, kissed her happy smile like walked out the door. And I got about 10 minutes down the road. I think I forgot my phone. I came back in the
house. And she she sees the door open up and she'll be like lights up and she sees me and I'm like, I forgot my phone and she just looks at me. You To say an effing word just looked at me, smiled and kind of goes, okay. I get back to the office. And I sit down at my desk and I opened my my computer and Windows. It's Tuesday, May or June 26. And I mean, you talk about like wanting to scream
vomit in that moment. Like just feeling so disgusted with yourself and like, I don't forget things like that, especially with you, but it just happened. So today anyway, get to this point of the story today. I woke up and I had a really hectic morning as we're coming off vacation. I'm like, kind of out of routine. And I played it kind of so woke up,
she was still asleep. She gets up and she goes in the bathroom to freshen up and stuff like that and just kind of wait outside on the other side of the door. And I'm sitting there and I go, Alright, I'm out of here. I love you buy and use go. I love you too. And then I walked around the corner and just waited, waited and I waited and I waited. And then I was like oh crap. Like this is gonna be one of those jokes. It turns into like a really painful moment for you when you turn the corner
crying. She sat there for like 10 minutes, because I guess she was just resolute the fact that I'd forgotten again.
I did, but I sat there feeling it was gonna turn the corner. I go happy birthday
and she was not effing amused. She was like, I was pretty sure you forgot again. Like just very like resolute in the fact that like, Yeah, you're a POS and you would do that. Dale? a one time deal, but okay. So yeah, I've got reminders that buzzer my phone now let me know like off the bat, like, Hey, it's your wife's birthday, dude. So anyway, happy birthday. Hey, I am. I think everyone that knows you and everyone that hears you and listens to you and interact with you is better for
it. You're an amazing person. Thanks for Happy birthday. Thank you. All right. Well, I think that's all we've got. Yes, those guys we mentioned, by the way, you can find those@www.tufo.com That's TW fo.com. And there you can also find plenty of other guides you can find links to our social media accounts that we keep pretty fed page has been pretty lit on tick tock lately, actually. Yeah, he's figured this thing out in some great interaction, some great questions, and by which we will
have a fun episode. Coming soon. I forgot about that. An extra episode this week coming out on Friday. We will answer listener and engagement questions people have asked us questions about dealing with a number of things via Tik Tok. So if you're not checking us out there, check us out there interact with us. So be looking forward to that one. I think that's all we've got. It's been a good episode. I really enjoyed this one. It was
awesome. It's good. It's been a long time in the making this episode.
Okay, well, until next time, I am Matt and we'll see you