There are moments where you will take action to do what's best for you. And on paper, it all makes sense. You're writing it out. Yes. Okay, this is good for my mental health because this is safe for my family because this is the right thing to do. Because my therapist even agrees, the community agrees everyone in my circle agrees. But at the end of the day when this person lets me know that I made them feel bad, I feel like a piece of you know
what? I feel horrible. I feel like I've done the wrong thing. I'm better than that. I should be the bigger person. I need to squash it. No, no, I know. It's hard. But you have to tell yourself, you have to rationalize this stuff. Welcome back. Well, come back to another episode till the wheels fall off on Matt. We are here to guide you through the holiday hangover that you are. Because we're totally not.
We're not feeling what holiday hangover? We're not.
We totally are. But we can't say that out loud. Because we're here for them. Everyone's feeling it right now. Let's just be real. Everyone is feeling this? Like not from alcohol? No, no, no, this malaise after all these events and the money that was spent and the mental labor associated with all the different crap you have to buy, and
that just messes with your brain and
your body. All of it. Every bit of it. Yes. All of the above. I
just wanted to sit around today and do nothing. I know what you mean. Like your watch or watch like something on YouTube and like numb my brain
just binge on something new? Yes. I kind of feel the same way. But at the same time, I know that if I give in to that, I'll often stay in that place longer. We've done an episode on this before I totally get that. And there is something to acting yourself into right thinking yeah, acting as if doing as if
so tomorrow, we're gonna have to get our butts up early and actually get on a little routine. Yeah, routine our kid has tomorrow. So we do have to get up early. There's no excuse. We're,
we're back in it. Man. We're back in it. We're back on it. So we're here for you. And I hope that you're here as well, you've got an important topic to talk about today, we're going to talk about guilt. Yes, guilt is a huge question that a lot of people have. Yeah, this is requested in our community a few times, actually. Yeah, two pages mentioned the basis of it comes from if you're in a relationship with someone who's abusive, like, you know, intuitively that
that's not good for you. But you feel incredibly guilty for leaving someone when you feel like they need you the most? Or for what you could have done different or what you could have done better? And how do you deal with the feelings of guilt? How do you deal with that? Where does guilt come from? Is it right or wrong? Is there good guilt versus bad guilt? We're gonna get into all that, all of that. But before we do, as
a partner of someone struggling with alcohol or substance use, do you feel lost, scared, confused or unsure of yourself? Have you ever wondered, how did she get through the trauma? How do I find myself again, many
people ask these questions, we get these in our inbox all the time, maybe you've even googled them to yourself and come up empty handed? Well, we've done something to address that we've got a new course called independently strong, you can find out more by heading over to www dot independently strong.com. And for a limited time, we at least get a 75% discount with the code wheelies 75. It's got a perspective from Paige and how she got through
this. It's got my perspective, to teach you more about addiction and what your partner is going through. And it's got research back clinical perspective, from Dr. Christopher Taylor. We talk managing triggers, am I helping or enabling self awareness boundaries? How do I set them? How do I make life changing decisions, maintenance, we got worksheets, exercises, you name it, and you even get access to us. So if you're wanting to take your recovery to the next level, check us out at independently
strong.com. We kind of mentioned routines pages challenged the community to an accountability which should I call this an accountability accountability challenge. Oh, that's good. I like that better accountability. Check in for self care.
Is that what I said? Yeah, that's
solid. That's better. Yeah, it's not really so much a challenge. But it's, it's kind of challenging. It's challenging people to show us what you're doing for self care. Yeah. So did you read something today? Did you journal? Did you do some artwork? Did you exercise whatever you did? Or did you maybe some self indulgence, maybe you've taken care of yourself, maybe you got dressed, showered up, put makeup on
whatever it might be? Post in the group, we'd love to see your smiling face or whatever it is you're working on, or reading or what have you. And let others know, it's really cool, because other people will see it, and they will get FOMO and be like, well, I too need to take care of myself, which is the good kind of FOMO Yeah, but I want people to feel that I should be taking care of myself. You're right. You should. Yeah. So this is this is going to help you get
there. Right. The other piece is that when you do it, you get the support of other people that are also doing it. It's cool and it's supportive. It's a good positive thing for a group that often feels very negative. Yeah, it's not that it's negative. It just is
yeah, we're big believers believers that there aren't positive emotions or negative emotions or what it's all in between. It just it just emotions reality.
I'll have a place like the orchestra. Right, exactly. Even the bassoon. No offense to bassoon players, but they have a place like I asked you about that was last week. Yeah, you did I read it. It's that one right there.
It's like a big oboe.
It's like a longer clarinet with a different read. Oh, well, nevermind. More buttons, too, I think. I don't know, I could be wrong on this instrument. I played for insurance. I'm not sure about the woodwinds, too.
Oh, and I learned that you put your hand inside of for insurance? You do? Yeah, I didn't realize that I was watching these people play and I'm like, stick your hand in that. That's quite interesting.
Okay, that could derail too, too terribly bad.
We've had this topic requested a few times about the guilt of leaving a toxic relationship. And I think that we haven't discussed this because we're still married. So it obviously felt like okay, are we you know, is this fraud information. But in reality, Matt and I do have a lot of experience in this and other parts of our lives. Ton Yes. So we aren't pulling stuff out our
butt to share with you. This is actually from experience, and obviously research as well, because every time we do an episode, we do do research to make sure you know, we're on point to,
let's make sure that our experience here we're right back valid and correct and right, they have some research and clinical back information to it. Right.
So it's not just relationships with your partner, this could be you leaving a job, this could be other, you know, Friends, this could be family members, this could be so many different relationships in your life, and it's going to feel the same way. Because it could be a toxic, abusive environment that you're in. So the guilt that you feel, I want you to know if you do feel these feelings. totally valid,
totally valid. Totally normal, I would say. Yeah, in the context of what's been happening in your life. Yes,
yes. And in these types of relationships, it might even feel more heightened. Yeah,
probably, you
know, then if you were to leave just a standard relationship that you Oh, without a doubt, where you're just like, both of you are kind of independent and you're just like, this isn't gonna work out. But when you're in an abusive relationship, the levels are totally different.
Without a doubt, yeah, I think that so we talked about last week we talked about codependency
No, it was when Dr. Taylor was here. Okay,
that was a few episodes back. So when it comes to codependency there are seven characteristics of codependency and I'd like to go through these for just moments. I think it sets us up for the context of why people leaving these relationships feel so incredibly guilty for things that really aren't their fault or responsibility.
Do you want to talk about like the psychology of guilt first let's
get into get into that. I think this this sets the stage
are you talk to me like that? It's like just a moment like you're my my professor or something? Yes. And I'm like, What are you doing? You don't like this mat? No, no, I
just my brain my brain works on these like small tracks and if I get off the track, I'll never get back to it. Okay, that's cool. That's the reason I just wanted to make sure you had a plan of something. Yeah, a little bit. You might have to remind me about the psychology of it all, but I'll get there. Alright, so seven characteristics of codependency. So number one is distorted reality. So a codependent person is often blind to the ways in which they're being manipulated.
We have talked about this in depth actually. Sometimes codependent people even fear reality, so they can hold on to habits within a relationship to stay disconnected from the reality, it becomes a very comfortable place at times. Yes. Number two incorrect beliefs about responsibility. This is where we're really going to focus most of our conversation today. So codependent people often struggle with how much to give or receive in a relationship. Oftentimes, they're giving far more than is
being received. And they may date while they have expectations about how much they should receive. They don't hold anyone accountable to that right.
And that's the imbalance of the relationship right? Power and yes,
generally this person assumes that it's their responsibility to make others happy, which can also cause them to think that others are responsible for making them happy as well. Since you can only be truly responsible for yourself this type of relationship does not work trying to be responsible for someone other than yourself. One keeps others from taking responsibility for themselves to keeps you from being responsible
for yourself. Three creates resentment for being the responsible one all the time and for sort of a general point it just leads you to taking yourself far too seriously giving yourself no grace at all okay for anything Yeah. Along with some of the other things well, we're not gonna spend too much time here but being manipulated manipulating others, which is interesting trying to fix people exactly. The Fixer mentality, hurt and anger.
Another characteristic. While everyone feels hurt and anger they're more common and a codependent person because their inability to say no. So they're often going to be dealing with us all the time because they're, they're going against what their values are. Yes. So when it comes to guilt, the codependence guilt is actually false guilt because they haven't done anything wrong. The codependent dependent will describe the
emotion as guilt. The codependent feels guilty about everything, what they did, what they didn't do, what they should have done, the feeling rarely goes away, which keeps him fueled to take care of others. But as a way, but it's way more of an obligation than a desire. It's an obligation you feel not like I want to do these things. Yeah, you feel obligated to do it.
Do you think that's more of like a fight or flight type response? Like you have to do this, like, since you're obligated to do it, you fear that there's gonna be repercussions if you don't,
I think it's a learned behavior, okay, which is, I think perfect segue into the psychology of guilt and where it comes from so, so keeping in mind the incorrect beliefs about responsibility in a codependent relationship, where you have one person doing basically all the work. And then this, this false guilt that is created, because of that overwhelming sense that you're responsible for basically, the happiness of yourself and everyone else around you. We get to the psychology of guilt, like what
is guilt? What is the biological basis of guilt? Is there an evolutionary basis for guilt? Guilt is an emotion like any other? Yes? neither good or bad, right? In a sense, right? But the context of guilt very much matters. Yes, there is guilt that comes that is derived from breaking your values, okay. So if you value honesty, stealing would cause some guilt inside of you. Because that wasn't an honest thing to do. Like what?
We talked about this, but you've got a really good handle on just natural guilt, I think you've got a great barometer for when you're bleeding into unnatural or false guilt, if you will, on time didn't have that. But okay, but you've always had strong values. And as a result, you've always felt guilt the right way, okay, for someone that doesn't have strong values for someone that's in their 40s. And they're just discovering, oh, I'm supposed to have values, what are those, and they're just now
figuring it out. They're gonna be weeding through this from the back end, and figuring out Oh, my God, like a lot of my guilt was the result of manipulation from other people. A lot of that
comes from childhood. So if you were raised in a home, where you had a parent that made you responsible for their emotions, in some ways, a manipulative parent, maybe a narcissistic parent, overbearing parent of whatever you, whatever think people kind of know where I'm going with this, the child will often feel responsible for those emotions overly responsible for those emotions and will feel guilty when others aren't happy. Yes, it's like when codependency forms, a lot of it is in early
childhood development. But it can also occur later in life in trauma bonds as well. Yes, in a trauma bond, we've talked about this in depth, if you haven't listened the episode on trauma bonds, check that out the relationship, I mean, this, this conversation will make much more sense. Yes, in a trauma bond, you're, you're bound to someone else via trauma. And the relationship is only as good as your willingness to bend your values to give in to this
person. Yeah, you get stuck in the cycle of being picked up and praised where you get this dopamine kick, and then put back into the place where they want you, which is where they're controlling you. Yeah. And it just repeats itself over and over and over and over, you will be feeling guilty for things that are not your fault, or not your responsibility, that have nothing to do with you could not have changed these things. They make no difference to you. So
it's all skill. So in some ways, I think that guilt is, while it is a natural emotion, I think that it matters in the context of where you were raised, and what you believe in and what you hold your values, your culture
and your family. And sometimes your religious upbringing is what it is like some, it's somewhat of a conditioned emotion.
Exactly. That's a better way to put a conditioned emotion. Because if someone is raised in a culture where they have to hunt to survive, like they're not going to look at an animal suffering from a death nearly as bad as like we would Yeah, because it's just even though we eat animals, we don't see that every day. So to us it would it would we feel more guilty for them. It's like, this is how I survived. I don't feel guilt for this, like I value the animal's life. But for me, this
is survival. Yeah, it's different, right? equal, equal stimulus, equal response, different feelings about the guilt itself. So in the context of these codependent, or addicted relationships, where there's trauma bonds present, guilt isn't created equal,
right? Healthy guilt is when you know that you've done something wrong and you're able to see it clearly. And you're able to have accountability for your actions and try to make it right. So can you think of a healthy, healthy guilt that you felt based on how you've treated me in the past and what you've done to correct it?
Absolutely. Yeah. When I became like, when I became truly aware of the extent to which I emotionally abused you over those years and years and years, I had real guilt like real guilt because that's not that's not one of my values, my values is honesty, integrity, it's compassion and love. And it's, it's being there for you. In particular, our relationship has its own values and one of our relations, the values of our relationship is authenticity. And I wasn't allowing you to be
authentic. And I had a ton of guilt whenever I went back and looked at my behavior over the time, yes, it was healthy, though, because I could acknowledge where it was coming from. I knew why I had the guilt. Yes, I knew what I could have done differently. And it was very obvious like I had done wrong. When there was a right yes, there was right and wrong. It was very clearly defined what right and wrong were Yeah, and I didn't do the right thing. And I had guilt for that. Right?
That's healthy guilt. And then
you owned it.
It's just like, if you took accountability for
let's say, you miss somebody's birthday, and you're like, Oh, I feel guilty for this. So what do you do you make it right, you apologize to them? You say, I'm so sorry. And maybe you'll get them a special gift or something and say, Look, I apologize, I hope I can't I won't do this again. And you know, I know what made you feel a certain way. It's healthy guilt, because you know that you
did something wrong. This false guilt or this unhealthy guilt is whenever you can't really pinpoint what it is that you did wrong. It's basically what somebody else is telling you that you did wrong. Yeah,
that's a great distinguishment you made just right there. So that again,
it's whenever it's somebody else's telling you what you did is wrong, but you can't pinpoint exactly what it is you did. That's so true.
guilt comes from a lack of internal integrity, I have violated my own personal values. And false guilt is a learned response that's triggered by something outside demand that we didn't meet based on someone else's expectation, not necessarily how we feel, right? Which is interesting, because in these relationships, you can become guilty for all kinds of things that you don't even value. But you were made to feel like you were less than and wrong, for not doing these
things. And then people will internalize that and question that, like we've talked about empaths before on the show, yeah, and how these incredibly empathetic people feel what others are feeling. And then some others go a step further to make themselves responsible for those feelings. And they often end up with these people, these personalities is addicted people, these abusive people that dominate and control and it's like, one of nature's sickest jokes. I mean, really is
like, it's terrible. I think a lot of relationship issues in the world could be fixed if nature had some, like, some sort of trick that didn't allow that to happen. But it does. Yeah. So here we are, right. But I think you made a great distinguishment is that false guilt is, in a lot of ways, it's unreasonable. And it doesn't come from where we can't even see where we've been
wrong. Like, for healthy guilt, it's like, okay, there was a right, I did something wrong, I see clearly, I can take accountability, I can move on. So for
me, I will throw out there what I have felt guilty about and how I treated you back in the day, I was a very critical person, that was one of my toxic traits that I had. And I made you feel a certain way, and it affected you long term as well. So I had the guilt of how it made you feel. So I owned it, I acknowledged it, I apologized, and I changed it. That's where healthy guilt comes into play. And I knew exactly what I did,
and how I can make it better. So this false guilt, we're gonna like really dig deep into this.
Yeah, so false guilt. Let's just give an example. For false guilt. Let's say that you're in a relationship with someone who's incredibly abusive, and they've been abusive for basically the entire time that you've known them in some way. And when we define abuse, we mean someone that chronically mysteries or devalues you not saying just hitting not physical isn't necessarily chronically devalues. What did I say? devalues or? Oh my gosh, my brain just blank. See what I
mean? The final thought right on the point that it just disappears. Oh, my God, that's okay, though. Either way, if someone's abusing you, and they have been for a very long time, you, you will do what you feel is right at certain times, and you will be made to feel guilty for this. Yes, the false guilt comes from them their criticism, it comes from their manipulator manipulation, how they spun the narrative and used these convenient facts, quote,
unquote, against you. And it leads to you blaming yourself, but it's unreasonable, there's nothing you could have done differently. It is a projection of their own feelings, and it has nothing to do with you and your values of right or wrong. This is never more evident than whenever you are in a relationship with an alcoholic or an addict. And let's just get cut to the chase here about this is that there's nothing that you can do or say that is going to
stop them. There's nothing you can do or say that's going to make them start either, right? There's nothing like page you can do nothing back then to stop me from doing what I was doing. All you could do is take care of yourself. Yes. And when you did that, lo and behold, I saw waking up I woke up but to this day, there's nothing that you could do that would cause me to drink or you're right I could
leave I I could cheat on you, I could do all these things. Yeah. And it's not it's not an excuse for you to go and use?
No, it's not an excuse. No, that would be a decision I made. Right? You would have false guilt. If you felt responsible for me doing that, as as I told you, I did this I used and I started drinking, because I couldn't stand the thought of you with someone else. That's manipulation. And that is not true, right? I'm relieving myself of the responsibility of doing what's best for me, and giving it to you so that you can feel guilty for it. Yeah, it isn't.
I should feel guilty because I mean, they're
all wrong things to do. But my response to those things, your response to them that right there, my response to those things in this context, in the context of guilt, just guilt, we talked about reactive abuse and other things complex, this is
talking about guilt. So if you're if you leave a relationship with an abusive alcoholic or an addict, and they then you start to feel all these, these emotions, these guilty emotions that a lot of times they portray on you, which is I'm never going to figure this out now. Because you left me I have no purpose anymore. You've completely ruined my life. I have no reason to get sober. Why would I ever get sober? If you're not around? All
these things? Like all the things and then you will feel like well, oh, my God, how could I do is how can I walk away? Like it's bad enough to leave a healthy relationship and feel guilty? People are going to feel guilty in irrational ways in ways we necessarily shouldn't. What could I have done differently, like impasse are so introspective, codependents are so introspective and looking at their part in things way too far. They
go too far, way too hard. We go to the links of where we are not taking care of ourselves at all. No.
And you have a completely absorbed the other person of all responsibility they have here. Yes, yes. All responsibility that Yes. Yeah. And I do have experience here. I do and not with not with Paige, but you know, I have more than one person in my life.
We have other relationships. Yeah, we have not in plenty of
other relationships. And I've been in relationships where this is the case where I've been in relationship with somebody for a very long time. And there has been this power dynamic. That was, you've got one person in power, one person with more control than the other. I was on the acid of that. And there's been abuse because of it. I have been manipulated, and I have been left to feel guilty when I shouldn't have. And it has been a long time on one year stuff.
And it's incredibly painful. And there are moments where you will take action to do what's best for you. And on paper. It all makes sense. You're writing it out. Yes. Okay, this is good for my mental health because this is saved for my family because this is the right thing to do. Because my therapist even agrees the community agrees everyone in my circle agrees. But at the end of the day, when this person lets me know that I made them feel bad. I feel like a piece of you know what, yeah, I feel
horrible. I feel like I've done the wrong thing. I'm better than that. I should be the bigger person I need to squash it. No, no, I know, it's hard. But you have to tell yourself, you have to rationalize this stuff. And that's why it's important to have a therapist or community or a mentor or a coach or someone around you, to remind you that
you're not crazy, that it's okay, you're
gonna feel it, you're gonna feel all these things, you're gonna feel crazy, you feel like you're
wrong, but we're here to help. We're here to tell you that it is okay to feel this way. But it's also false guilt.
It's false guilt. There is such a thing, there is
such a thing. It's a thing. Like we tell people to trust their gut all the time. And they don't know the difference between, well, I feel guilty. So I need to do what my guilt is telling me to do. But in reality, your gut is telling you to do the hard thing. Because you know, deep down what you're doing is really important for your own protection.
That's a great rule of thumb. And that's a freebie I want to throw out here is I've always told people this very thing is that the right thing is generally the most difficult thing. The thing you feel like when people say I've trusted my gut here. It's you there's there's two parts of that there's the part of your gut that this is the easy way. Don't trust that part. Yeah, do the more difficult thing. Do this do the hard thing. Do the quiet voice. The quiet voice is always
the correct voice. Yeah, like in my mind that my experience and everyone I've ever worked with, it tends to be the case. It's the thing we don't want to do that we know is right. We can really quite ascertain why it's right. But we just know that that's the right thing. Yeah, but dammit, it's going to ruffle feathers and it's going to rock the boat. And I'm going to have to defend myself and there's a whole set of fears associated
with that. It's it's terrible, but it's usually the quiet thing, the gut intuition to winch to intuition. It's usually it's like quiet little bitty voice inside there. Yeah.
And you're gonna try and justify this guilt through all different things. You're gonna say, Oh, they have a disease. Oh, they have childhood trauma. Oh, they just can't help how they are oh, they treated my me that way because they were drunk or high. And I know I just said that they had childhood trauma, but I'm also going to throw out there that some people make the justification of saying that they have unhealed trauma, and that's why they feel guilty for making them feel uncomfortable.
I just want to say that that is, it's a slap in the face to you, for people who have actually held to their trauma and have gone through the hard things and have not made their trauma, an excuse to treat others poorly.
Yeah, I don't know at what point we allow other people to treat us like crap because they have trauma like, Oh, I'm sorry, you have trauma. You can totally keep Yes. Doing all that stuff. Right? i You should have said that to begin with. I didn't know that next time. Open up with that. So I can let you kick my ass for 10 more years, right?
I had unhealed trauma. And I was starting to trickle it into my children and to my husband and to people around me, because I didn't know what to do about it. But I didn't make it an excuse to treat others poorly. Yeah, I got help. I decided to heal the trauma, and you can heal your trauma. Your partners have the opportunity to heal their trauma, it is not an excuse to treat others poorly. Yeah.
I've never How many have ever said this out loud before but a lot of the time, so I have a ton of compassion for addicts and alcoholics. I always will. Because I remember what that helpless state felt like where you can't imagine life with or without your substance. And you're like, What do I do you consider just killing yourself, you consider just ending it all because you don't know what else to do. And I have compassion for
that. And I, every day in some way, I reached my hand out to someone struggling and I helped them through that. So I want to preface what I'm about to say with that. But yeah, it really gets under my skin when I see people making excuses for addicts and alcoholics because I live through all that crap. And whenever you say they can't recover because of xy and z, what you're saying is that my recovery isn't important. It
didn't happen. And it doesn't mean anything and then I didn't suffer and that I didn't deal with all this stuff, too. I check every effing box. Every single one trauma. Yep, got it. Abuse. Yep, got it. unresolved. anxiety, fear. You name it. It's all there with me. Mental health issues. diagnoseable ones really? I've got all kinds of stuff every one of them I've got so when you say that they can't do it, but I did when I'm what you're saying to me is that, oh, you're different. You're
special. You know, I walked through that same mud, it can be done and you did. It can be done. So yeah, it gets under my skin a little bit when I see people making those excuses because I did it. Like what the hell they chopped liver over here. Like I did all those things. It's possible. So don't say that. That's the reason they're not recovering. We can be effing done if you want to do the work. Most people don't want to do the work and say that say that I it gets under my skin so
bad when someone says I can't. I want to throw a chair at him. I know. Don't Don't say you can't tell me you won't say you're not ready. Say that's too much right now. But don't say you can't because it can be done. And I'm walking proof of it. Right? I'm not special. I just did the work right. So when so whenever other people say that they can't because of XYZ because they had childhood trauma because they were abused. We all have every one of us that have recovered
have dealt with that stuff. So it can be done. Like you're you're negating the experiences of people that have walked through this. And you're once again you're you're giving too much credit to this person that is being manipulative, you're giving too much credit this person that doesn't want to do this stuff. And they'd rather make excuses and they'd rather you feel guilty for asking them otherwise. Yeah. So yeah, I that stuff drives me nuts. Sorry for the rant you went
on that rant I literally put on here rant because I was gonna go on the rant, but you did it. Sorry.
Thank you. Why are you apologizing? Because I didn't ever want to derail the podcast, like make some sound clip is gonna get me roasted? No, I
think that it's important because like I said, it's unjustified guilt. Yeah. And we don't need to feel guilty because somebody has. We don't need to feel guilty about leaving a situation because somebody has trauma and you feel like, I think you might feel like you're gonna give them more trauma. Do you feel like that could be part of the guilt process? Absolutely.
Like you said, because you know, their story, you know how much they've been through, and you're like, Well, I'm just adding on to it. Right. But you're not, you're not, you're not, you're adding on to their failure to recognize the problem and do something about it. You are completely absolving them with responsibility of what it is to be a human and what it is to grow and change and what it is to challenge yourself. Okay. You've absolve them of the responsibility of being an
adult. Yeah. Don't forget that. We have consequences for our actions. Yeah. And it sucks being the one because you are you are going to be someone they view as they are someone that calls me a consequence is that and there's guilt associated with that you feel terrible for that.
But time, education and healing will make you see this whole much clearly, like so much more clear, and you will be able to release that guilt eventually.
And you're not a bad person. I think if it's anything, it's confirmation that you are an amazing person. Yeah. But you are such a caring and compassionate person. But you're also a person that completely disregards himself. Yes. And what matters for you matter is you damn it so hard to do that
and like I know how it feels. I know how it feels to completely disregard what's important for you because you're so used to taking licks for people you're so used to stepping in and saving people, you're so used to apologize and for people, I know, I've done the same thing for people in my life, and it's so hard to finally stand up and be like, No, it's not right, the first time you do it, you're gonna feel like the, you're gonna say the words don't try not to curse, but you're gonna
feel like a POS you're gonna feel terrible. So you try not to curse. Yeah, cuz I'm bad about that
is what we do often,
I do watch the baby too much too much. And I don't know who's listening in the car, whatever. But anyway, you are going to feel like the biggest POS the first time that you do it well. And the reaction you get is going to confirm that suspicion that I'm a POS because they are going to lose it on you. They're gonna send you nasty texts. They're going to guilt trip, you guilt trip you and shame you and tell you that
you've ruined everything. I'm sure some people experienced this over the holidays, where they didn't let someone show up. And they're like, You know what, not doing it this year. And their kids probably asked him, Well, we're so and so why aren't they here? And they put you in a position to have to answer all those questions. And then you feel like if I just would let him be here, we wouldn't it be so much easier. But don't forget, don't forget the point of the boundary is to protect
your values. Remember, you don't value this crap, right. That's why it
cycles as well as breaking cycles for you and your children. Yeah, man, never forget that there's little kids around, right? Don't Don't ever forget that the hard things that you do now to break cycles are going to be imperative for your children. Yeah. So what about the guilt that comes with leaving somebody and you're afraid that they're going to die or lose everything? Or you know, become homeless or lose their jobs? You know, how does that come into play?
Don't let fears turn into guilt. I tell people this all the time, don't let your fear turn into guilt. So those are rational fears to have for someone that uses a dangerous drug or does something really risky like that, you have compassion for them, but you're not responsible for those things, you're not responsible.
And I need you to know that this is coming from an addict, a drug addict, like I was full blown as bad as they get drug addict and alcoholic as well, is that there's nothing that you could have done that would have changed that for me. In fact, what you did got me better. Right? So there's a chance that could actually get better if you lay down the law? Well, yeah, but also, you wouldn't have changed anything, you wouldn't have changed anything, you can
look back. And you could What if and think about all the scenarios that could have been different. Let's say that this person does, let's say that you leave. And they they use and they get a hold of some some bad powder of some kind, and it's got some fentanyl in it or whatever. And they Oh D Are you responsible for that? You might feel responsible for that. But are you responsible for that decision? When we all wake up? We are all we all have the same opportunity for decision making.
Yes, unless I guess you're incarcerated or something. Right. But you've got the same opportunity for decisions I can make a decision that benefits me or is to my detriment, one of the one of the two. You're not responsible for other people's decisions. They come from within, yes. addicted or not. disease or not, you're not responsible for those decisions. Who made you responsible for them? Right? Tell me who? Like at some point, did you sign an agreement that says I'm responsible for you
to say no, but their partners will make them feel like they're responsible. They're gonna blame them all day long. You're the reason I do drugs. You're the reason I do this. Now. The reason I, the reason I'm mad, you're the reason I'm not happy. But we know from the outside from the other side that that is not true.
I see people that no, that's not true. Like it's it's a common excuse. It's a common reasons common justification. It's a common projection. But it is not true. It's not a fact. It's not it's not a fact, that's not true. We all have stress in life, we all have things that are tough in life, we will all experience death in some way. We will all experience loss, grief, you name it, these things are part of life, you are not responsible for everyone's response to the things that we
all have to go through. Yeah, you're not responsible for them. Right. At the end of the day, we are responsible for those things. Yeah. And you can have guilt, but just know that that's a false guilt. And it's not it's not valid, even though I mean, it's valid, but it's a valid emotion, but it is not. There is not true, right? Yeah. And what about if done nothing wrong?
What if people have guilt of trying to make changes and they want to leave or they want to set boundaries, but shit just keeps hitting the fan within their relationship or within their partner's life? And they, you know, feel like they can't make a decision to leave right now. Because Oh, okay, I'm guilty. So
let's say let's say your relationships in a place where things are not good. You've been listening to pho for the last year and like you're, you're about to make the leap, which is like, I can't be in this relationship anymore. But before you do, something happens in their life. Like they just lost their job, like
they lost their job or some family member might pass away or just you know, life happens. And you feel like you can't make that decision. Now. I feel like this happens so much in life. Like whenever you feel so strong and you feel like you're on top Up in the world, and you feel like everything's like you're about to do something so bad as shit hits the fan. And it makes you feel
it's like a test. I tell people this all the time, it's like they're testing what you've learned, and what how you can actually apply it in your life. And it pisses people off because they're like, I don't want to be tested. I've been tested enough in my life. I'm like, that's what this life teaches you though that life is always going to happen, something is always going to happen. So there's never a right time to do anything that is difficult. That's
what I was gonna say you answered the right thing. Like there's no, think about a diet, we can all find reasons not to start the diet. Yeah, we can all find reasons. Oh, well, Jimmy starts theater class this week, and it's going to be a little hectic around here. So we'll do it next week. The next week, what happens? Oh, well, so and so got sick? Yeah, there's always going to be something it's a matter of how you
prioritize your self care. And what you're saying essentially, is that you don't prioritize yourself. You're once again prioritizing them. Remember, we went back to that those those characteristics of codependent right. And we talked about the overbearing responsibility for others. Yes, once again, that's it's evident, like, you can separate the true from the false. And I think we'll put a link for the characteristics of codependency because I think it's important for people to be
self aware about it. Yeah, I agree to acknowledge these things. But like, crap, man, and pay full disclosure, I can see myself in all seven. Yeah, every one of them. Absolutely. And some other ones that are on a different page as well. Like I've got yeah, I've got it too. So I'm not like I'm not pointing at anybody. Please don't ever get that. You're not just an addict. You are a codependent. Absolutely, I am. Which is why, I mean, it's easy to talk about.
No, right. But,
yeah, there's always going to be some justification, some reason that you're going to not do these things, but
can have compassion for people's struggles. But still yourself first. So
okay, it doesn't make you cruel. It doesn't make you a cruel person. No. And just because someone says it doesn't mean it's true. Just because someone says something doesn't make it so. Yep.
So how can you get through the guilt? Like if he because it's gonna happen. And I think that now that we've kind of educated you, we can help you get through the feelings and let you know that there are stages. I wanted to talk about the stages of grief, because I think that has a lot to do with this.
Yeah, I think that this concept is wrapped into the stages of grief. I think that grief is sort of like the overarching concept here. I think that guilt and shame are sort of under this umbrella lawless times of grief because we're grieving the loss of a relationship, the loss of a dream, the loss of this, this life that we had that we imagined in many cases and the truth of what could be Yeah, absolutely. So the state there originally, I think it was worth
there five, I think in. Let's see, there were originally five stages of grief in 1969. A lot of people are familiar with those, but they've been expounded upon. So the seven stages of grief now, okay, so it's denial, right? pain, anger, depression, what they call the upward turn, reconstruction, and then acceptance. Yeah, and guilt is in pain. So then that's step two. And that's really early on in the process very early in the
process. This is the stage where you'll be, you'll hear people wishing it had been them or expressing remorse, or saying like, I could have done this different I could have been there, I could have done you name it,
it's probably about the stage where you want to go back this is because you want to get rid of the pain. This is
the bargaining stage and the previous development, the five stages. This is the bargaining stage. Yeah, but really, it's about learning to embrace and accept the pain. Pain is part of grief. Yes, all these things aren't necessarily part of the process of grief. So in therapy, though, I love this quote, emotions buried alive never die. Anytime you bury an emotion alive and never address it and truly deal with it and experience it from beginning all
the way to the end. It's coming back one day, and it's gonna come back times 10 It's just like we've talked about putting stuff on a credit card Yeah, you have to pay that one day with interest it's gonna be worse it's gonna pop up in some other way
but if you look at these emotions at not as not good or not bad just are in a non judgmental way it's easier to get through them because you accept them
grief Yeah, and guilt they're painful emotions. Absolutely so freaking painful and there is listen, we don't have an answer how to make it go away.
I don't have that's supposed to make it go away. Exactly.
Like there's no trick like, Oh, hey, try this. Try a cold plunging try sauna is no, there's no way to make grief go away. There's no way to make guilt just go away. But when it comes to this false guilt that is created, there is a way to rationalize through that. Or you can look at the true story right and say, Okay, I can recognize that I'm feeling guilt and that's valid. You are feeling it. That is true. Yes. But is it? Is it true, justifiable guilt? Is it something you could
have done different? Did you violate one of your values and doing this and what you'll come to see is no, I'm just feel bad that they can't figure it out. And I feel respect asked before. And that's fair, that's okay. But that's why it's important to have a coach or therapist or community, a group of people that you can talk about this stuff, well, they're going to accept this stuff in a non judgmental way and understand
what you're going through. Yeah, but you're going to have to go through it, you're going to have to experience it from the beginning, all the way to the end, there is no off button, y'all. And the
guilt and a lot of these feelings to they're going to come back and forth to it doesn't necessarily, oh, I felt all the way down with that, ya know, sometimes you'll do something or you'll go through something and that guilt will pop back up. But it may not be as strong as it was before. And you're able to see it more
clearly. That is why part of this, I tell people, whenever they do leave a situation that's toxic, go non contact, no contact for at least 90 days, there's a 90 day rule to where you do not talk with this person, you do not communicate with them and you're able to see things in a different light. And, and that's what's going to help you get through all those
stages. And you're gonna need to heal at that time, educate yourself, do a lot of self care, go to therapy, focus on yourself, you know, because if you don't allow yourself if you allowed yourself to contact this person, again, it's going to be more difficult to get through all of these emotions that you feel are uncomfortable. Yeah. Because you will try, they will try to reel you back in. Like, there's gonna be so many guilt trips, there's gonna be so many
different. That's so unhealthy guilt trips are very unhealthy in relationships and healthy relationships. You just don't do that to people. I don't think I don't feel like we've ever actually guilt tripped each other. Oh, you know, I can never think of it. Because I don't feel like that's appropriate in a healthy relationship. But if you have somebody who's guilt tripping you, that is a red flag, that means that what you're doing is appropriate. Sorry, if I spit on you, not on
me. I read the listeners as I just
so let's let's go through this just really quickly. This is like when talking about like, how do you identify this? What do you do about it? What are some solutions? This is a quick way you can identify Okay, am I having false guilt? Or is this real guilt? So it's probably real guilt. If you know exactly why you feel this way. Yes. If it's, if it's very clear to you. Let's just sit at the beginning.
Yeah, so stick with that. So if you feel fully responsible and accountable for what happened, and be honest about that, honestly answer that question, do you feel fully responsible and accountable for what happened? Okay,
it's not fuzzy. Yeah.
Can you see the entire cycle of actions from beginning to end? Can you see this thing is a big picture? If you can, and you're at the center of it. That's real guilt. That's something I've done wrong. I feel guilty for something I've done wrong.
And that's something that you have actually dealt with really well. Yeah. So you didn't get that way until you were, you know, clear headed and got help. Yeah.
Okay. And then also, so if the guilt is resolved by facing or stopping the behavior, and taking relevant, appropriate amends, yes. So once you've made amends, there's a style and you change your behavior. Most of the time, guilt does, like you can apologize to someone. But listen, I what I did was, like I always say that a proper apology has three parts. What I did was wrong. I feel badly that I've hurt you. What can I do to make this right amends or an action? What can I do to make this
right? Most people just going to say, I just want you to listen to me and let you I'll let you know how I felt about it. And I love you and you give each other a huge hug. And you're good. And it feels you feel that that feeling of resolution in your belly? Yeah, I've made that right with him where we're okay, you might still feel a little bad about it. But it's different than false guilt. So it's probably unreasonable or false guilt if you feel stuck or trapped, especially if you have
no alternatives. If you feel like you're obligated to do this, yeah, not necessarily. In the context of these types of relationships, I have to stay and be miserable and lose everything I've ever wanted in life. Because if I don't, and he's going to lose it. That is unreasonable guilt. That is false guilt. You don't feel fully responsible or accountable. If you're not fully responsible, accountable. Then who is right, we all have a part in things but sometimes this is
mixed. Yeah. In this type of relationship, you're gonna have a much smaller part than the abuser, right? Someone who is mistreating and devaluing you. If you're protecting someone else's feelings, oftentimes this is false guilt. Yes. That's the big one for me. Yeah, I can recognize I feel and I feel it. I know how you guys feel like you feel like the lowest person and the first thing you want to do is apologize. I'm sorry, I've made you feel this way. I'm sorry. I've caused this and the
reason for it. But what I'm really doing what I'm doing that I'm I'm just protecting their feelings of having to face the music of their behavior accountability and take accountability because it's easier for me it's it's so much easier to have peace. Yes. And I've been the person I haven't. I got broad shoulders. I got big quads. I can hold a bunch of weight, and I can take punches. I don't mind it. I can take pain. I've been doing it my
whole life. So yeah, if you need to beat me up to feel better, I'm okay with that. Like, I've been that person for a long time, my life and I've just been okay with it, I've become numb to it where, yeah, it's no big deal. I'm protecting their feelings because they can't handle it, but I can't, but I can, I can like this protector complex that comes up the savior complex, almost, that's my
codependency. If you've apologized made amends, and yet you still feel guilty, you should have never made the amends in the first place. So oftentimes you're going to continue to feel guilty, and you feel to blame. You might even feel like you need to be punished for it. Yeah, that is false guilt that comes from a place of this is a, this person or this family unit, or this construct of whatever it is, has created this toxic set of norms and values that you have to
operate in. And when you're, they're going to try to hold you to those things, it's comfortable for them, it's easier for them, it's much better to have you in this place, than it is for them to have to face the music of their actions, and to deal with things. So if you're going to feel guilty, I'm not going to lie to you, you're going to feel terrible. But it helps being able to rationalize this stuff
and to work with someone. And to know that, okay, I'm not crazy, I'm not crazy, whether that's in the community, which is totally free. Whether that's what the therapists, whether that's what the coach, you're going to have to have someone around you that is going to be able to help you distinguish the two, yeah. Because he's going to be muddy for a while until you figure out your way. And you learn to trust your instincts and your values in your gut again,
journaling helps to Yes, journal everything, journal journal,
don't just write it once. Go back and review. Yeah, that's where you can see the growth. That's where you can really start to see this stuff.
And you can see the patterns and see like, okay, when you felt guilty, what do you feel like you did in order to make you feel guilty? Yeah. Where's that coming from? Is it true guilt? Or is it false guilt?
Yeah. So just because you feel guilty, doesn't mean it's true that you're a bad person. It's just a thought. It's just a thought thought. It's just a thought. It's harmless. It's up there. It's just a thought. It's not reality. Feelings aren't facts. Matt has always said, Yeah, but you are an amazing person who's incredibly empathetic, who watches over
others, you are a caretaker. And so you are going to try to take that on, we're going to challenge you not to do it or not do it and it's going to feel so icky and uncomfortable. And you're going to feel so guilty for it. But you have to know in your heart of hearts that you're doing the right thing. And if it feels difficult, it's usually a good thing. Because what comfortable usually gets you is more of the same. Comfortable. And this sense is the worst
thing ever. If you're comfortable in this relationship, that's a red flag, right? That's a bad thing, right? That means you're used to abuse means you're okay with it
and normalized. It's
not going away. Once again, emotions buried alone, alive, never die. They're coming back eventually. So if it's uncomfortable, just know that that's a sign of change, which is a good thing means you're challenging. You're challenging status quo is a good thing. You're making other people accountable for things. Yes, not by force. But just by making them look at the reality of the situation. That's a good thing. These are good things. And these are painful things.
Yes. And then with time, and with healing, you will be able to see the situation for what it really is. And you're going to recognize what you've done and how powerful it is to get through that.
Yeah, just think of think of a day whenever you're, you're able to trust your emotions again. Yeah. And how great would that be? Yeah, how great would that be right? To know in your heart of hearts, like okay, but hey, this doesn't mean this person is going to change though, I need people to know that, that you're probably never gonna get validation from them. It's unlikely that they're going to wake up and be like, You know what, I'm sorry that I did those things to you. This is just who
they are. This is how they've, they've constructed their reality and what is expected of you. That's just how things are like, no contact, not talking to these people, distancing yourself as the only way that you're ever going to be able to trust yourself again, the longer that they're around, the more chances they have to manipulate and make you feel guilty for these things and take advantage of your compassionate nature, the more they're gonna do it. That's just what they do. Just
what they do. So, got anything else? No, I think that's it.
I don't think we mentioned the course.
Well, we'll have an ad. They've already heard it.
Okay. Yeah. Well, we recorded this like three times. Yeah,
yeah, we'll get in here. So yeah, again, so we've got our course we're incredibly proud of. It is designed to walk spouses or partners through their recovery journey. It is a self paced course it is thorough as it gets. I know nothing else like this out there in the world. It comes from someone that's worked through it page, it comes from someone that has worked through it in some other ways and other types of
relationships. Me also through the addiction piece me and you've got research back clinical perspectives from Dr. Taylor. Yep. This is this is the whole thing wrapped into one. Yep. And I think from a value perspective, like it's, there's value like using our, our discount code, we at least 75 Yep. I mean, that is it's not a small investment. Don't get me wrong, like I understand the gravity of that number for people. I totally get it. And
there's no requirement set. cuz like, if you follow the show, you have to do it you don't know, it's just a resource that we have there. For people that want to do it, they want to take that recovery the next level, they really want that more personalized approach to it. It's there for you. So if he's a discount coupon, you know, really 75, you think about what the cost of therapy is, the cost of coaching pays for itself
pretty quickly. It does. That's just the fact that it paid for itself after four or five sessions. It's you have it for a lifetime, forever, right? You'd access to us any updates that we ever make to that course, anything we ever add, go straight in there, no extra costs, no charges, it's in there. And also coaching. We don't I don't think we've ever really promoted a coaching mentorship coaching page, and I do that it's available on our
website to fau.com. You can go on their schedule with us if you'd like. Again, not a requirement. If you just want to be a listener and check out the free stuff. That's fine. If you want. If you want to take your recovery to the next level. If you want to work with someone one on one, if you need some validation of some kind you schedule with us and talk to us and work through us. That's great. It's an option. It's out
there for you. If you want to get really serious about your recovery journey about learning about becoming educated and empowered. Yes, it's out there for you. So I think it's all okay. Well, until next time, I am Matt and we'll see you