underlying all this, this is a hate that we have to go here because I think that we serve people in the beginning to give them hope that they can repair the relationships in their marriages. And things could be beautiful and they could, but that's not common. And I just, I can't say it enough that that's not the most common outcome. It's not because it's not up to you. It's not all up to you. This person has to do the work. Like I asked this question How do you make a caterpillar turn into a
butterfly? You don't you don't?
You just does has to do the work. The
caterpillar has to do the work. You don't do anything. Welcome back. Well come back to another episode until the wheels fall off. I'm Matt. I'm
Paige.
appreciate y'all joining us again this week. If y'all didn't already know. We have a free Facebook community called Tufo community. It's a place where listeners and followers can go and share their experience. They can get feedback from other people going through the same thing and for wheelies to unite. You can find it by clicking the link in any of our social media profiles. There will be a link tree there and it brings up a plethora of Tufo related links, one of which
is the Tufo community. And we would love to have you in there to share to listen, to get validation on some things and just safely say whatever it is you're going through. If you want to vent and rant, you can do that, too. You could write a 10 page rant, I'll read it, probably. Yes, yeah. Just Just come on, in, pop in and join our movement, and they would love to have you in there. Today's episode is going to cover communication. And we have
covered this before. It's been quite some time I want to say this is close to a year ago, we did an episode on communication. And this is about our first episode was about communication and a healthy marriage. So our marriage as it sits today, what is communication look like? How did we fix some of the pitfalls in our own relationship and marriage and communication? But we what we didn't cover is what communication looks like in active addiction. And by the way, we did get roasted, or I
guess I got roasted? Yeah. But for our first communication episode I got roasted to It's wild. Apparently it is. It's not a good thing to communicate your needs. Apparently. That's bad.
Apparently, you're supposed to read minds. Yeah, you're supposed to read my mind.
Wild anyway. Okay, check that one out. Yeah, this one's gonna cover more of a communication in active addiction, which is it's very, very nuanced. Right? Right. And the reason is, is because you're not dealing with someone who's in a healthy headspace. You're not dealing with someone who's thinking rationally and logically, you're not thinking about someone who's really considering your needs at all. Yeah, so communication and act of addiction breaks down
quickly. It's, it's a disaster, let's just and it really
is it's not, it's one sided, and it's going to be one sided. Like it's not going to go well until this person actually knows. And takes accountability and tries to make change in their life.
Yeah, I just recorded a tic toc video about this. And it sort of deals with communication. But like the number one question that we get in our emails, and DMS, and by the way, we do try to get to all of those if we haven't gotten back to you. It's not that we're just ignoring you. There's there's a lot to weed through.
And we've only got so many hours in the day, and we do our best, I promise you we do but the number one question we get is, hey, I have a partner who's an alcoholic or an addict and you share your pain with us, you share your life with us. And we appreciate that we really do. I can't tell you how much it means to us that you're able to be honest and vulnerable with us that we give that vibe off, and then it comes back. But the question is often, how do I help them? What can I say to help
them? How do I how do I communicate how the severity of this issue and how bad this is? Yes,
how it's affecting them, how it's affecting me how it's affecting everyone around them?
And the answer that we hate giving back is not a hell of a lot. Yeah, because communication is a two way street. Right? What does that old saying? Like teachers used to tell me this all the time was I used to get trouble for talking in class. It's like, God gave you two ears and one mouth for one reason. So you can listen twice as much as you talk. Yeah, that was always the
opposite. But it's if you're speaking and someone is not listening, because they're on drugs or alcohol, or they're in a headspace where they are not considering their any one's needs, but their own. If they're an active addiction, they're unlikely to take your, your rational and logical communication and do anything with it. Other than stomp on it and kick it back to you. Yeah, that's pretty much how it usually goes anyway,
right? But we're gonna kind of help guide you through healthy communication for yourself for your peace to help protect you that might go well with your partner and might not go well with your partner. But you know, you got to try somewhere and you got to change some of your behavior to see what can happen within your marriage.
Can I ask you a question real quick about this? Yes. Before we get started through all this, what? Yeah, let's just say what should Someone's expectation be around communication with someone inactive addiction,
and it's to be very low. Yeah,
that's fair. Thanks for being on,
it needs to be very low, you need to go into the conversations as not expecting them to do anything, honestly, like you cannot expect much from from a conversation, which is sad, but it's true. It is true. And you can speak on your part that that's true.
She, so back when I was using, you had had more rational communication with me than I could even remember. But it was always like how you would speak to someone who's not on drugs and alcohol all the time? Like, I'm not I'm not of sound mind to even really take what you're saying and do much with it. Yes. So it's almost like you have to speak the language of an addict in order to get through to them. And even then I think your expectations ought to be super low
that right there, which is, it's really hard because think of like, let's say you have a problem. And you're talking to somebody who lives in a functional home. And they're saying things like, why don't you just talk to your partner about your feelings? have you addressed it with your partner? Why can't you just have a discussion about it? Speak up, tell them how it is. When you're in this relationships, you
know that it's not that simple. Yeah, we must not live in the same house. And
that's healthy communication, speaking up for yourself is healthy communication. But in addictive relationships like this, it you have to completely shift your mindset on how you approach communication. Because I was gonna I want to talk about kind of like how I was raised with communication and how my I had pretty healthy communication skills. Like I lived in a pretty functional home where we had stability and open discussions, you know, we address our problems. We came up with
solutions. So when we tried to use the same logic logic, as I was raised with Matt, it didn't work. It made it worse. It made me feel like I was wrong with my feelings like I was get gaslit. I was lied to told that I was sensitive. Yes, I am, which I've said before, but that is not
okay to throw at someone. I was raised to speak up when I felt a certain way, like the somewhat healthy communication many of us were raised with doesn't typically work in these types of relationship, it's not as simple as addressing the problem and coming up with a solution. Because typically, the person we're with is not worried about anything but themselves. Yeah,
like, it's when you're trying to apply like this rationale that you've used basically your whole life with, with healthy relationships and healthy people. And it doesn't work here, you're likely to just try harder, and, and hone in more on the skills that you do have and the things that you do know about communication. And what it's going to do is going to leave you feeling like you're hamster on a wheel is running in circles over and over and over.
It's like Groundhog Day, every day will be the same it will you will communicate effectively, it will go through it will get thrown back at you, and you will get nowhere you'll feel like oh my gosh, what am I going to do about this? Well, I'll just try it again. Because you don't have the tools necessarily to deal with someone who's in active addiction. It's tricky.
Well, and then you start getting to a point where it's not healthy communication, and you just start basically yelling at them and saying, Why are you doing this? Can you please get your shit together?
Yeah. And when you try that what's gonna happen is they're gonna take that, take it and use it against you. Yep. And say that you are now the reason that they do these things. Yeah. Because you nag and because you're ugly to them. And you're mean and you know, all that. probably heard it.
Right. Right. So sometimes they might show you know, signs of healthy communication during sober periods or whenever they're feeling Sure, somewhat normal, but that's just part of the pattern and it isn't consistent. A quick break
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And that's, you know, you have to that's where you have to look at the actions instead of the intentions and look at if they're actually willing to change based on that conversation. Typically, they're not I mean, that's just the truth.
No, they're not like, like, what would you say is the biggest difference between communicating in the way that most people know how, like when they were raised in a normal, healthy home? And then now they're with an addicted spouse? What is the biggest difference in those two types of communication?
problems get solved? Compromises happen. If you're in a healthy relationship, and you're speaking on healthy terms, both parties are willing to solve a problem together, they're willing to compromise, they're willing to, like, look at how are we going to solve this problem. But when you're in an addict, and you go that route, the addict is not looking
to solve the problem. They're looking to get away from the problem, they're looking to numb the problem out, they're looking to get you off their back so that they can just keep escaping reality.
Yeah, and I think that the way that you approach these things also, like, like we talked about in the very beginning, where your expectation has to be that this is unlikely to go anywhere, which is sad. But that sort of has to be your expectation, because your expectation is, I have crafted this wonderful message that is going to land and it's gonna resonate, and they're gonna go, Aha, I've seen it, everything's better. It's unlikely to happen. You sort of have to temper your expectations.
Yeah. Because if you're, if you're having a healthy conversation with somebody, and they brought a problem to you, and you're healthy, right? You're gonna take their words, and you're gonna say, Yeah, you know, maybe I'm gonna, you're gonna self reflect, and you're gonna try to change your behavior that's affecting them. Because that's what you know, you do. That's what humans you know, want to do. But these people don't want to do that.
Yeah. And maybe, maybe it's not that they don't want to, it's just that they're incapable. Oh, yeah, totally incapable, right? At that moment. They just, it's not even close to being at the top of their mind. Right. Sorry. Okay. My wife has a problem. Yeah, whatever. I'm just not really concerned about that. They are stuck in the loop of addiction. Yes. So communication has to change. So what is healthy communication in an addictive relationship looks like or is
there such a thing? Does it even exist?
Well, I mean, you can start off by like I said before, it's about like, protecting your peace and making sure you're not going to get into something that's going to cause a huge argument. And it's basically going in with I feel statements, you know, start Okay, rusted,
those again, how does that work? Well,
you need to talk about how the behavior is affecting you, not how they are doing something that's affecting you.
Okay, that's subtle, but what like, what does it sound like?
What do you mean? Okay, so
if you're, if you ever bring up a problem to me right now. When you
know, I knew I was, oh, you always switch it around? Because you're like, when you do this, I feel this. No, it has to be I feel this way when you do something. So I feel disconnected. When you crash on the couch at five o'clock at night. You know, right? feel disconnected. I feel like that's how you want to go about it. Instead of saying, you know, you're always drunk. Why the hell do you have to pass out at five o'clock at night? You know,
this was messed up. We've talked about this, and it pisses me off. That's not appropriate to go in like that, because it's just gonna cause an argument, and they're gonna get defensive.
Yeah, so I think the overarching theme here is that I'm just gonna spit it how it is you have to walk on eggshells, and you have to be really gentle and careful about the way you present things. Yes. In the most non judgmental way possible, you have to own your feelings in this prior to blaming or shaming them for the way you feel. Yeah, even though they very well could be the reason this is happening. To get anywhere and to get anyone to not bark back at you
and lash out. You have to own your feelings in this like pages describing like, I feel. I feel sad. Yeah, were hurt when you're throwing up and vomiting at, you know, seven 8pm When we had dinner plans, like I feel really hurt by that. You can say that. Yep. It's not saying that. You're the cause of all my problems. You're just owning the fact that like, I feel really sad right now. And this is what led me to feel sad,
right? And don't bring up the substance. Don't bring up the alcohol. Oh, that's a good one. Don't bring that up because it's going to trigger them to do whatever they need to do to get you off your back off their back because you're trying to take away the pacifier. They're gonna lie they're gonna manipulate they're gonna gaslight you so that you would just leave them alone. And it's gonna leave you angry and confused because you're like, I just want to talk
about this. But if you bring up what they're doing like that, like it with the alcohol and stuff, it's just going to piss them off.
Yeah, and there is something too that that alcohol, drugs, whatever it is, isn't the only problem here. I think that a lot of people approach it rationally and say, okay, things were cool before they got addicted and now that they're addicted to I just need to get them on addicted. So things can be cool again, yeah, but they didn't get addicted just for no reason more than likely there's other stuff going on. There are behaviors or feelings to try to
cover up. And it's not as simple as just removing the substance. So a lot of the times when you're saying, just quit drinking, it's not even. It's that's the tip of the iceberg, right? That's not even really what the problem is here. There's so much more surface.
Yeah, that's why, whenever you were an active addiction, you know, you're a closet addict, I was always looking at your behaviors, it wasn't the actual intake of substances, it was the fact that you were an ass.
And I love that. And you kind of created that whole, that that that process, kind of though, that we've used is, rather than looking at the drinking, or the drugs, or whatever they do, and saying, that's what I hate, look at their behaviors that go along with that, on the outside of that the ancillary behaviors, what do those look like? Is it the abuse, the emotional, and sometimes physical abuse? Is the name calling? Is it being short tempered? Is it being
disconnected? Is it not participating in and being a father or a wife or living their life or not showing up to work not working? Like those are behaviors, let's focus on the behaviors. Forget about the addiction, let's just put that in its own bubble. Okay, the substance itself, because if you come and attack the substance, you're just gonna get all kinds of like
you're controlling, just like
my mom, just yeah, just run you in circles, focus on the behaviors, what are the behaviors saying,
and I know a lot of people are going to hear this. And they may say, well, their behavior is like this, because they are taking the substance and the right to some degree, yes, they are. But that's not going to get you very far in communicating with someone who's inactive addiction. No, it isn't, it's better to go back to the behaviors instead of the substance. And then this is also why whenever they do get sober, a lot of the behaviors will
still be there. So that still kind of debunks that about that the alcohol is what causes it, because we don't know that it causes it.
It amplifies, it amplifies it.
Absolutely.
But oftentimes, in the absence of substance for an extended period of time, like anyone can be good for a day or two. And I think that we love to romanticize who this person could be based on their potential like, oh, they were married, they were sober for two weeks, everything was perfect. They were probably white knuckling it and faking it through life if I'm being honest, because I went through those periods of time to where it's like, I'm just gonna white knuckle stop cold turkey, and
just figure this out. And I did my damnedest, but like on the inside, I was just struggling all the time. It's it's not it's not, it's not substantial enough to last it's not didn't hold enough depth and wait for you to last for for a considerable amount of time. But we'd love to romanticize those weeks are those months that someone's sober even those days that someone was sober? Like, that's who they are. No Backup, 30,000 feet, let's look at who they are. What does experience show
us? What are the behaviors show us over time, that's who they are, how we arrived here, sort of irrelevant. I know that drugs, alcohol certainly plays a part. But underlying that there's so much more going on. And if all this sounds high maintenance it is it is and just know that it is you're
having to shift your entire communication skills in what you know about communicating you do because you're dealing with somebody who is not capable of communicating at the level that you are. And it's hard, man, it's hard. It's really, really hard to relearn. And it's going to be even if there's even another shift
whenever somebody gets over. But here's the thing is that when you learn how to do this, you can handle so much in the world, like that's one of the things that I'm really grateful for is that I've learned that I can be stronger. And I learned how to deal with certain, you know, situations based on these communication skills that I've learned. Yeah, in all different levels of addiction,
underlying all this, this is I hate that we have to go here because I think that we serve people in the beginning to give them hope that they can repair the relationships in their marriages. And things could be beautiful. And they could but that's not common. And I just, I can't say it enough that that's not the most common outcome. It's not because it's not up to you. It's not all up to you. This person has to do the work. Like I asked this
question. How do you make a caterpillar turn into a butterfly?
You don't you don't you just does has to do the word Caterpillar
has to do the work. You don't do anything. You stand back and watch them hop in the cocoon and do all that work. That's what a recovering addict is doing. They have to do this work. Now while you can provide an environment for them to succeed in that I've never been in those little terrarium as a kid with the caterpillar in there. The way terrarium is, you remember those know those little like two liter bottles, yet boring science class.
I don't do that. But we did something with the kids during homeschool, we bought butterflies and we went either way.
You can craft this environment where they can be successful, but in the day they've got to do the work. They have to do the work. So it's not all up to you. So like we serve in the beginning to provide people hope. But the real deal real talk here is that most people most listeners Most wheelies are going to have to find out how high their pain tolerance is. How much of this am I willing to deal with over time? Have I exhausted every
single option? Have I given this relationship and this person every opportunity to succeed? And then at some point, decide, okay, I might be done. This might be it for us. I don't know. Because it's not up to me anymore. I've done everything I can. And it's not that I don't love you. I just can no longer tolerate the abuse that comes with it. I can't tolerate watching someone destroy themselves in front of my eyes.
I just can't do it. Yeah. And so many people will look at their vows and their marriages and be like, Well, we said till death do us part in sickness and in health mandates. I've seen that thrown back on people. And it's so hurtful, like, what they're essentially asking is, I need you to stick around for about another decade of abuse before I get ready. Yeah. And it's just it doesn't have to be that way. I think that part of what we do in educating people is like education is it's sort of like
opening Pandora's Box. Like, once you've been educated on what addiction is, that there are solutions to it. And your part in this and what's going on inside the mind and everything else. You've you've sort of like, okay, now you've gained a new knowledge. And then the next part of that is empowering people, oftentimes, and they're stuck in their relationships, and they're trying to go through all this high maintenance communication like we're
describing. What we try to suddenly sneak in there for people is like this empowerment journey, where it's like, yeah, like, that's really tough. It's I know, that's tough. But they have to see it for themselves. You can't just tell someone you need to leave. Yeah, never works. Like it's just like telling someone you need to stop using drugs or alcohol. It doesn't learn on your own right.
But they have to get to a place where they're comfortable enough their own skin because they are invested in their relationship. And there's this. There's this business term, we talked about this yesterday called the sunk cost fallacy. Yeah. So in business, for instance, like this is where I learned about it in school. Let's say you invested $100,000 into software, and the software is not going well. It's a pain in the butt to
use. It's not really streamed with your company, you really have to, like work hard to make this stuff work. But you're going to stick with it because you spent 100 grand on it, because you got time and training invested into it. And now your two or three that three years down the road. And your business didn't grow like you thought it would because the software is holding you back. But you're like, but we invested so much money in it. You've got a sunk cost that you're never
going to get back. Yeah, relationships are the same way. You've got time that you'll never get back. People will be like, I've been in this for eight years, or 10 years of my life. I've invested in this. I've got to get a return out of this. No, you don't. That's a sunk cost fallacy you don't like sometimes winning is knowing when to quit. And like it breaks my heart to say that, and I hate having to be this brutally honest about things. But that's
a fact. And our job is to empower people to know when to quit, because not everyone's gonna get there. But many people will some people, they will put boundaries in place they will their partners will see oh my gosh, I could lose them. I've got to do something. I've got to get healthier. I've got to recover. They'll do the work and things can things get wonderful. You know, things can get so good. And I hope that I wish there was a way to get everyone
our journey. I wish there was a way but the more likely occurrence is that you've got to get through your own stuff about okay, maybe maybe this isn't happening happily ever all for me. After all, maybe this isn't what was intended for me, maybe, maybe there's something better for me. And that's a process that takes place over the course of sometimes years. We're just here to love you until you get to that point. And even after we're here to love you, you're
never judging anybody. No, never making anyone feel like they should feel like crap or sticking around. None of those things. Because the fact of the matter is that we went through that, and we stuck through it. Yeah, but our relationship today was more contingent on me getting sober than it was you doing anything? Yeah, you did everything you could I had to get in the cocoon and do the
work. Ultimately, yeah. So communication, you know, helping someone supporting them all that stuff only goes so far, they have to start pulling their weight in this. Yeah, I just want anyone who listens to us comes across us to know that we will love you until you get to that point. And you will everyone gets to that point eventually. Right? Everyone does. Like there. We've known people that have left marriages after 30 years. And like, we don't take pride in that by any
means. Like it breaks my heart. Anytime I hear about a relationship being fractured or split and to know that there's someone who's suffering from addiction, who's stuck in that, but I've also talked to enough people in recovery. I'm kind of hard about this where it's like, maybe that'll get them sober. Maybe that'll keep them sober. You know, if nothing else would, yeah, maybe they need to have some tough love. And it's not to
say that it's done forever. I know you can always hold space for that maybe one day they they get things together and rekindle and then you can start to work on stuff but how long? How high is your pain tolerance? How long do you want to stick around until that happens? Yeah, it's really up to you but we will be here for you. Regardless one way or another. That was beautiful. Love you taking love yourself. I'm sorry. I had to rant.
That was great. I mean, you went way off. Yeah, we're where we are Like where were we? Oh, sir? Sorry,
I just totally No.
I thought it was great. Um, I'm just going to we talked about like, when you're communicating with someone, I feel statements. Oh, yes. Right. Okay, so I wanted to kind of go back like what if the conversation turns heated? So how do you handle that? Yikes. Because you know, that's a high possibility that that's going to
happen. And if they decide to get defensive about you coming at them in a calm manner, even if you're speaking your emotions and your feelings about how they're affecting you, it's okay to take a timeout it is okay to go to another room for a moment to collect your thoughts. Some people hate that they're going to hate it because they're going to say that things aren't getting resolved it means that you know, you don't care about our problems this and that. But in reality, you've got to do it
to protect your peace. It's totally okay. I used to hate it when Matt did it. But I understand it.
You did Hey, come chasing me down like we ain't done yet.
I did. Yes. I did. That was my part of like, not communicating is like I need I need to talk about this right now. Like but the way you looked at me after you would go to the room and just look at me like, like you didn't care it would piss me off so bad. So bad.
I can see you now you get.
I'm having a flashback. Yeah. Okay. But anyway, there's this, there's this acronym is called Jade. And I believe that it's from Al Anon, but it's something that I actually encourage people to do whenever they get into a heated conversation. And it means don't justify, argue, defend or explain yourself. You can do this with anybody who is just, you know, kind of mentally unstable, and you can't really communicate with them. You don't need to justify your feelings or
your boundaries. Let's say you put some boundaries in place, you don't need to justify them. You don't need to argue. Because honestly, it's a waste of energy and nothing productive is going to come of it. Some of us like use the excuse of arguing as part of a marriage, you know, so you're like, oh, you know, we're just arguing disagreement is true. It is it is but it doesn't happen often in healthier relationships, it it can lead to taking like appropriate steps to actually solve a problem
whenever you argue. How often do we are you I don't know. And I was when I was like writing these notes out. I'm trying to think of how often we argue but our arguments have become very productive. They've become predictable, predictable.
I'm trying to think we don't have like real like, a lot of big arguments that I can think
of I'm gonna explain predictable there can be some newbies on here for ductable
held it was that it wasn't in an episode. I don't think it was. I thought it was just like a like a like B roll like it was before an episode.
No, I'm pretty sure I said it in an episode. Ah,
no, it was before an episode. Here's was it a real Here we go. Here we go. Yeah, it was a real you made. So we were talking about she was trying to say productive members of society. And she said she couldn't she couldn't get the word out. She was like, predictable members. I was like predictable. But anyway, love to have shirts that say productive belong.
It's kind of funny. But yeah, so arguing. I don't know, we just have we have productive arguments. Now. We discuss them
and have disagreements every day as a couple. But what's important is that you get to the end of that with mutual understanding and respect. And empathy for the other person stands, even if you don't agree, right? To truly understand their perspective on things like you don't, we don't always agree on things that happens a lot. Like I just I don't agree with that. Um, I understand why you do though, I totally get it. And I have empathy for your
perspective on that. And a healthy respect for you in general, that you can have your own thoughts and emotions. They don't necessarily have to be mine. Like yours. I mean, yeah, there's, there's interdependence in a marriage, but there's also some independence as well, where you're still married to another person, like they're not an extension of you necessarily. Yeah. You know, like, this is a different person, right?
Yeah, that's totally okay. But arguing in a relationship that's not with healthy communication can just take you down a really dark path. The DEA is defending your feelings or actions. That's not necessary. Because you know, in your heart, you're taking steps to protect your peace and your well being.
Yeah, don't defend because it's non negotiable. You're taking action. That's correct. Just know that. Yes. If someone's acting, asking you to defend their perspective, they're just being difficult. They're being a pain in the ass. They don't want to see your perspective.
No, they want to change your mind. They're trying to ask you to defend yourself so that they can manipulate you Yeah, so have the confidence that you don't have to you don't have to Yeah, the next one is not explain you don't have to over explain you don't have to. Like sometimes when we over explain it can make the conversation more complicated. We can simply state our feelings and decisions without explaining why we feel a
certain way. Think about and when you over explain something the person is you're giving them too much information. Yeah. You're aware they are going to take that information around? Yes. And it's not. It's just it's not necessary. You don't have to do it. So,
you know, I use this at work a lot, actually. The jade method, yeah, sort of like, it's part of my job is have to deal with a lot of conflict resolution. And sometimes this comes down. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. I'm not gonna sit here justify or you defend or explain myself. Here's where we're at. This is my position. Right? And I'm not ugly about it or anything else. But this is where we are like, um, if I have to explain it to you like this, is this conversations over? Yeah,
this is cut and dry. Well, it's not just contractual. And like, it's shouldn't have to be explained. But yeah, I do this a lot. It's effective, too. Because at the end of the day, really, whether or not they like my perspective, they've heard me and it's out there and I don't have to beat myself up thinking about well, did I was I really ugly? When I was defending myself or explaining myself now? I just hear it is there you go. Enjoy your dinner and a walk off?
Yeah. And it's also the thing of like, no, is a complete sentence, it totally is completely just say no,
I reply all the time. People probably think of a monster. No, in Oh, that's a full email for me for a lot of times,
I would
hate you at work. I've not been ugly about I just know, like, I know.
It's kind of like when people do the thumbs up thing that's sort of passive aggressive,
but no, it's just No,
see, that's, I don't get that you send the thumbs up. Like, okay, cool. Like, I don't understand why that would piss somebody off.
I don't know. Like, we're gonna get into some like, emoji reaction controversy here. But I think if you click on the message and like it, that's totally cool. But you send me a thumbs up. You want the extra effort to be a jerk.
That's wild. I'm sorry. That's wild. I don't. I don't know. I never thought too hard. I guess.
I don't know. That's just negotiation. People ask me like, Okay, could you do this price? My answer is just no. Okay, just No, I can't I can't do the price. And then I want to explain No, I can't do that. Because my customer only gave me a budget of this and blah, blah. No, I just, I can't. If you would ask me another question. The answer could have been Yes.
Okay. Well, do you have any other like tips on communicating
with an ad an addict? Yeah. So let me let me let's do a go on. What? What do you call those like back in? Not important. Let's just, let's just go down memory lane for a second when I was an act of addiction and like, How could How could you have communicated with me? Effectively? Like, what was the best way to get through with me? It wasn't by challenging shaming. guilting yelling or any of those things? No, no, like, it wasn't going to
get anywhere. I feel statements are the most effective way to get through to me. I know that personally. Because I can't argue with this is how you feel right now. Yeah, I can't. Now I could go a step further being the abusive jerk I was and tell you, you shouldn't feel that way because of XY and Z and start to make you feel bad for holding the feelings you have. But how can you argue with that? Yeah, like I feel hurt when you passed out behind the shed and you left me here all night long with a
nine month old. That happened.
Remember that? Yes. When you just said that. Oh, man,
you oh my gosh, quick story.
I was no I didn't have the baby yet. We didn't know this was right before we got married.
Okay. I thought she was
born. This was during I think the theory is that you lost your shit. Oh, man area? No, no, it was a few months before that.
I went out behind the shed to take a leak. I had to relieve myself and I got dizzy and I fell over and I passed out. And it was daylight when I passed out. And then I woke up and it was dark. And it was like 30 degrees outside. And I stumbled into the house like fell over twice trying to get in the house and I got in the house finally. And you'd like had a whole evening yourself. You ordered Chinese food. It's about the time you were starting to like I'm done with you, man.
Oh, yeah. This is when I was really like starting to detach a little bit like
little things like that communicated more to me about where you were at than any conversation you could have. It was more about your actions. I
don't think that I like did we get in a fight over that didn't
say anything. You weren't like, I'm embarrassed. I'm nothing. It was just, um, do me, do you? I'm a dummy.
I have to say I really enjoyed my Chinese food that night without your ass around.
I bet I would have to. But anyway, I think just like peaceful. It's like when you're looking at someone rather than blaming the substance. It's about their behaviors. I think that your behaviors are equally important as a way to communicate where you're at. Because words can get so twisted. They can be thrown back at you that can be used against you. I think your behavior say say everything and like without getting too deep in the weeds about detaching with love. That's sort of what detaching
with love is. I think a lot of people misunderstand, detaching with love and like what that truly means. Like when people first hear it, they're like, Okay, I'm just gonna be cold. And I'm just gonna completely not talk to someone I'm not going to discuss anything with them like I'm just that's not necessarily attaching with love. Detaching with Love Is Something
You Do internally. Yes, when you you stop tying your self worth to them and their actions and their choices, and you stop giving them that power over you to control your mood. It's not just like punishing them with silence, or taking away physical intimacy, even though I think that at that point, you probably don't want to be intimate with them. That's a natural occurrence. But I've read a lot of people will do that intention, like I'm detaching with love and like, yeah, it's
practice. All valid totally it's practice, but really like true detachment is by looking at someone and saying, like, I'm not responsible for your choices or for your actions. And I my self worth is not tied up and those I don't need you and your validation to know that I'm worth anything at all. And I still love you, but I'm done with you. Yeah, that's what
detaching with love is. Yes, as I understand it, and as it was delivered to me, because you did an excellent job of this detaching with loads will ultimately go
I didn't even know what detaching with Love was at the time. Yeah, if people don't know that, I didn't know it. She just did just happen naturally. It was just naturally occurring. You
know what I've seen that it does happen over time eventually. Yes, it does. You get so fed up. You're like, I think I'm done. I can just be when you get done done. That's like detaching with love. I think a really good example of this was when we had Steven Christine on our episode, the episode was called
leaving him saved our marriage, our
marriage and his life. Yeah. Great episode, amazing stories. It was beautiful. But I think that her statement that you are my soulmate, I love you more than anyone in the world. And I never want to see you again. Is the is the that is the essence of detaching with love. Yes, that I still love you. But I am detaching from you. It's not detaching for punishment. It's not detaching for purpose. It's not detaching to get them to do something else. She was
done. Yeah, she didn't really care if he came back. Thankfully, he did come around, and there was still just enough in her to see the changes and be like, Okay, I think that this is for real this time. Yeah. But it was after considerable amount of time. It's like, right, go get 90 days, and then we'll talk. Yeah, like the next weekend? I come on back. No, there has to be proof. But I think that's the essence of detaching with love.
And I think that as far as really communicating with an addict, your actions will mean everything you're actually and oftentimes when, like when people will tell stories, like the anonymous posts come through in the community, the times where the addict really starts to get vocal about like, what's your deal talking to their spouse, it's always because they have started to just detach, in some ways, like they've stopped being, they've stopped asking questions, they've stopped being
really invested in what they're doing, or their decisions that they're making. And they start to just kind of do them, like, do their own thing become more independent in
that sense. And they're not allowing their partner to manipulate them. Yeah. And that
gets reactions more so than any amount of conversation, rationalization, defending, explaining, justifying any of that stuff. Yes, your actions mean everything. But yes, understand, that's a process like a lot of people will read about the task of love on a Monday, and then think they've done it on a Tuesday. And that's not typically the way it works is a process that plays out over time, educate yourself on the reality of your situation, become empowered enough to do
it, and then do it. And that process could take, it could take 90 days, it could take 30 days, it could take nine months, it could take a year, or more for you to be comfortable. With, okay, I'm, I'm okay with doing this like because understanding that what you're doing essentially, is you're almost preparing yourself for a separation. That's sort of what
detaching with love is. Yes. So you're preparing yourself for that moment when okay, I could, I could walk out any moment and be far more mentally stable, I'm going to be okay. It's just the mental peace of doing it. And then actually leaving them is the action of detaching from the relationship as a whole.
Yeah.
So it's tricky. Yeah.
And standing up for ourselves doesn't mean doesn't just mean to speak up, right? It's not just saying how you feel even in a healthy manner. Like you have to take action that speaking up, that's, that's what you're Yeah, it's like you the first taking action is the next step. So like, if you want to learn how to set boundaries, we have an episode or series on
boundaries. But after you have this healthy communication that you're trying to instill, or you're trying to get across to your to your partner, and you're like, Okay, this isn't working, you have to take action. That's the only time that it's the only thing that's going to change.
Yeah, if nothing changes, nothing changes, period. Or if you don't change something, nothing will change, you will be in this cyclone forever. And there will be there'll be moments where you feel like okay, I can tolerate this and then inevitably, what got you there in the first place will occur again, and that's just the vicious cycle of addiction, man. That's just how this thing works. That's how this goes. Yeah. This is one of our shorter episodes, which looked at that.
Not that you're late leave in 45 minutes to an hour, but I think that we packed in good information here and just under 40 minutes Yeah, which is solid? Yeah, like it. Okay. And this is going to be a series is that right?
Yes. It's we're going to have next part is going to be how to have how to have healthy communication and early recovery. Yeah. Be and then the one after that is going to be healthy communication later on into recovery. Like I said before this comes in layers, there are different ways to communicate at different parts of your life.
Yeah, so we're going to do our best to meet people where they're at in their journey. And it's all there's a spectrum. It's all over the place. Some people who are in the very beginning their journey journey, which is where we're at right here in this episode, and then it's going to be okay, we just started this recovery process. And then let's talk about you've been you've got a spouse has been sober for quite some time, how do you really effectively communicate and go to that next
level? In your relationship in your marriage, and really level that stuff up? Yeah. Yeah, active addiction piece is tough. And this is this is the most difficult one, I think, when people approach us, like I said, the number one question is, how do I help them? How do I get them sober? What can I do to support them? It's not the question you should be asking yourself, it's, it's the one that seems the most rational in the most logical, but that's not always the best question.
Generally, people have already done everything that we would ever suggest them do. By the time they find us and reach out. Like, if you're looking for podcasts about this stuff, you've probably had these combos, you've probably already done that stuff. But it's difficult. Like I think that and I know why and why wouldn't you want to be able to find peace in the storm? Like, I've got someone who's just an absolute mess, but I want to find a way
to be happy in that two. I think this is where we get into more of some of the spiritual concepts of acceptance and things like that. One, I think that acceptance can also be a very rational concept as well. Yes, the expectation that this is
this is where acceptance is in this and yeah, you have to have acceptance that okay, this is how the communication is gonna go down.
Yeah, so I had a really, really, really low spot in my life in my career. Few years ago, that's actually let's just be honest, still going on. But But anyway, the only way that I could get there and perform at any level that was effective for the company at all, was if my expectation going in was accurate. Because here's where I got screwed up, I was walking into a situation that was bad. Like, the end, it wasn't just like the, the business itself, it was the industry that were in
was in a state of flux. And it was crazy. It was during COVID, it was incredibly stressful. But my expectation everyday walking in was today's going to be different. I'm going to walk in today, and it's going to be the way it used to be, it's going to be happy, the sun's going to be shining, it's going to be easy. We'll be done with the grind by like little after lunchtime, and we'll get a little chance to get some downtime, get some work
done. And I was just telling myself a lie every single day I would walk in, and it would be the worst day of my life. Every single day. I was there for years and years and years. And then I had this aha moment. I call this the pop. This is I refer to this as the pop when I'm working with somebody in recovery. You hear the pop, it's the sound of someone's head
coming out of their ass. It's when they get to a point of interesting image, just the pop pop. And now they're reasonable all of a sudden, it's like, oh, they're back? Well, I had the pop at some point where I realized, man, this situation just is what it is, like this is this is my expectation should be every day when I walk in here, it's going to be really challenging, incredibly difficult. It's going to be pandemonium, it's going to test me in every single way possible.
And when I started showing up with that expectation, things got tremendously easier. It didn't make my work any more fulfilling. It didn't make like my sense of purpose any better. But it really cured a lot of the stress and anxiety that goes along with this. And I think that you can apply that to a
relationship as well. So you have you are the type that has a high pain tolerance, and you want to know how to stick this out, change your expectation around it and stop stop pretending like it's going to be different today. It's not it's going to be what it's been. Yeah, you know, if they're still doing the same things they've always done, then you're going to keep getting the same things you always got, why would it be any different? Why would it
change? So your expectation has to be it's going to be an absolute shit show I'm walking into, it's unlikely that I'm going to have any of my needs met. It's unlikely that we're going to make any breakthroughs today. And I accept that I'm making the conscious choice, which takes back your power. I make a choice to show up in this today. And then you show up and then you're not shocked at all when this person does what they've always done. Yeah, that's just who they are. Yeah,
this is who they are. They are what they are. Maybe they get sober. Maybe they don't. But if you're if you're the type that's like, Okay, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not ready to leave. How do I find happiness in the meantime, that's a really effective way that I have found to find happiness in really toxic situations. And I've talked to people who have been with an addicted spouse for quite some time and that's very similar way that they find peace in it to.
Al Anon is really effective for this. I think, too. If you haven't been to an Al Anon meeting this that might be the path for you. Yeah. But anyway, I think that's all we've got. Yes. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you for joining us again. If you haven't already, please subscribe. I noticed that about one in four people that listens doesn't subscribe to the podcast. So follow us subscribe,
stick around. We've got some really, really cool stuff on the way and I cannot wait to start sharing this stuff with you guys. Yeah, it's gonna be awesome. So, thank you for being here with us. And until next time, I'm Matt
pace.