Am I Controlling You Or Just Challenging You To Be Better?

not ready for that. Someone has to give up and walk off and say, I'm gonna have to do this on my own. Welcome back. Well, come back to another episode until the wheels fall off, man. Man Oh, man, it's been a week. Oh, my crap. Feeling a little drained. I would say here lately a little bit. God bless me. I don't know if it's just every routine getting started again, and just feeling sort of resistant to it. Or what the heck's going on? I

accountability? Yeah, it's a question we get a lot and it'll kind of drive you crazy if you think too hard about it. Because there's Yeah, Paige is raising her hand right? Now. The more we think about it, the fuzzier it gets almost so true. We're gonna have a discussion to provoke some thoughts, give some insight, some things that we believe

community. And we've got files in there we've got some helpful free guides and things like that. This is one of them. I wrote this quite some time ago. It's called Drop the rope. And credit where credit is due the drop the rope concept. The idea of this came from some good friends of ours, Jesse and J. Norman, they've got a podcast called Moving on again. We actually were on that. God's been about six months, few months. Yeah, it's been a little

while now. But this was our concept and I just took it sort of elaborated on it and made it my own. But anyway, just in case they're listening, they go you SOB stolen, give credit where credit's due, but this is my perspective of it. So it's called Drop the rope. Picture a large muddy hole in the ground filled with water, everyone got the visual. So it's rectangular extends to your left and to your right, as far as the eye can

see. Just pit of water left and right as far as you can see, it's 10 feet across, though from one side to the other and it's six foot deep. On one side of this hole is you and on the other side is your partner. A thick rope is in each of your hands, and you are engaged in a battle of tug of war. Remember tug of war. Yes, my favorite of all the field.

of their reality. Conflict in a marriage is nothing more than a game of emotional tug of war. Each individual's fighting with all their being to protect their worthiness and to defend their perspective to say, listen to me, my opinion matters. I have value validate me. Sometimes we tug to protect our ego. Sometimes we talk to prove a point. Sometimes we talk because we lose sight of the reason we ever said I do to begin with. One thing is certain in this

game. It will leave one person muddy sopping wet, upset, feeling misunderstood, dejected, dominated in defeat. Did by their best friend, the same person we swore to love and honor to protect and nurture to understand, rather than to be understood. The victor of this game quote unquote the victor is often the stronger willed, the more articulate debater or the more stubborn, not the most

correct. Energy, persistence and stubbornness are required to win tug of war, one person must outlast the other and this battle of wills and the result is always the same. The result is a victory that serves one ego and damages another, it moves the couple further apart. Trust and Safety are sacrificed and vulnerable. Vulnerability is squashed. I am right, and you are wrong. In this game, a battle one is a battle lost.

We've all been here. We've all had fights and disagreements and sometimes their short lives sometimes the game goes on for years, Paige and I personally have had our fair share of these battles. Over the years, we've both been muddy, we've both quote unquote won battles. We both agreed in time that this game serves no purpose, and does nothing to further our goals. I encourage you to drop the rope. So rather than playing tug of war, we have decided to drop the

rope. We look at each other from across the muddy hole, and we nod at one another and simultaneously let go of the rope that symbolizes the distance between our perspectives. The tension is released and we stare at each other than we both get to work behind each of us as a pile of wooden planks, a hammer and a box of nails. We get on our hands and knees and we begin to build a bridge. Each swing of the hammer represents the effort that we must put into our

relationship. We take ownership of our part and the disagreement, she drives in a nail. And it represents her failure to communicate her needs in a healthy manner. I drive in a nail and it represents my inability to listen to her perspective and accept it as valid. The process is repeated until we have constructed a sturdy bridge over which we walk to each other. We stand over the hole and embrace. I go on to say that we think we can fix people. This is where episode starts

today. We think that we can fix people we think that if people would do things to our liking, our lives would be perfect. This is a failure to understand the dynamics of a relationship. It's an even bigger failure on understanding the world. Our marriage levelled up when I started listening, this is my

perspective. At this point, when I started listening for years, I would point out your faults and ways that you could you should improve things you could do different I would chastise you for your feelings and I would invalidate each emotion that you shared with me. I would gaslight you into feeling like you were

the problem. I was working working harder on being right than I was supporting my wife to support you meant I had to admit that I did not always know what was best and trust that you would take this gift as I saw it and use it well. I had a problem with control. Our partners aren't as naive as we think. And they're much smarter than we give them credit for. People grow and mature at different rates. And even though I may quote unquote, know the answer to your problems, nobody learns

by being told what to do. We learn when Our experience shows us the best path, the best path to take. We learned when we figure things out for ourselves with love and support. I dropped the rope and I trusted you to build your side of the bridge the best way that you could. I offered support when asked and stopped insisting that you build it my way. When you approached a fork in the road, I stopped telling you which way was correct. I simply listened, comforted, loved and supported

you along the way. Whichever path you chose would be your path and you would learn at your own pace. Now, when you're having a difficult time with something often ask, Are we looking for support or solutions? And 99% of the time the answer is support. Rarely do people want someone to solve their problems for them. It's no different than your two year old, they will get mad at you as they learn to put things back on the shelf where they go, just let them figure it out. People

are no different. They just want support along the way. So I take the cotton out of my ears and I put it in my mouth and I stop offering fixes and I just listen. I hold your hand. If you're willing, as you walk through life. This is what marriage is about. This is what healthy growth looks like. Along the way. I have been far from perfect. I've had to apologize many, many times when my old fixer habits come up and I explained how you should be

doing something. It is not my job to live your life for you. It's my job to respect you enough to know that you've trusted with me walking through life with you, not for you. I know that we kind of went through that if there's any part you'd like to go back and read I suggest you read it. It's on our in the files section in our community, but I think it's a powerful way of looking at what

we're about. To discuss which is this rope that exists, yeah, most of the time, this rope that exists between couples that we interact with, involves addiction. But it's also much deeper than that. And it involves tons of issues within a relationship, one person telling the other one that they should be doing, or the one pushing back, I think we often forget that we've got to separate people in a relationship. And this bridge and this or this rope, even that symbolizes our

differences, what we want. It's almost like we've forgotten where we were going all along. So that brings us to this question that we get quite often, and it is complex and complicated to say the least. What's the difference between controlling someone and challenging them? And what's the difference between controlling someone and just holding them accountable? How did this come to be? Miss Black and White?

another shot? And accept if you said no. Okay, I didn't mean I won't challenge you to do it. But I can accept if you don't want to do it. Okay, now, that is not a deal breaker in our relationship, though. No. But that's a great example of what the difference between challenging someone is and controlling them. Okay, controlling would be dragging your ass up there shaming you for not wanting to do it.

Getting you lessons, waking you up that morning, pushing you in the car, making sure you've got all your gear, making sure you're on that mountain, checking my phone to make sure that you didn't leave the lessons and sneak off to the lodge and like go get you like a hot toddy or something. Or go to the hot tub. Yeah, yeah. Calling your instructor how she doing? Is she doing all right, you know, okay, yeah, sort of manufacturing this world where you can succeed if you just

follow my instructions. Yeah. As opposed to just understand the fact that man, you're, you're not really a fan of going 50 miles an hour down a mountain when you can't stop very well. I get that. Okay, but it's also something really enjoyable and I will challenge you. I'll be forever I like to give it a shot. Okay. It's a little different. We're talking about addiction though, isn't it? Yes, it

we got this. So I draw this Venn diagram on like look, see these are the differences and then there's like the sort of interlab in the middle that involves conflict and communication Yeah, cuz you're gonna have those either way. Right? But then I just got confused all over again and almost just gave up a quick the whole podcast like together. We were like, Oh, my God sounds is gonna work. We know nothing. Okay, so it's a little complex. When you're talking about

addiction. We're not talking about skiing and someone's preferences on the types of movies they like the types of foods they like, well, that's another one to two challenging people to eat different foods, you know, like, you can challenge people on these really

basic things. Yes. When it comes to your values and the things that the values that essentially serve as a foundation for the way that you choose to live your life, these things aren't so movable, and you're starting to mess with the fabric of someone's being, when you're challenging these things. I've looked at a countless let's start with accountability. First, I want to do a lot more research on Yeah, controlling some someone versus

accountability. And this came from a question from a listener actually, you know, from tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, tick tock, where someone is a great question. What's the difference between controlling someone or being controlling and just making them accountable for their actions or holding them accountable? And I actually did a video response to this. And so it's accountability is another

word for responsibility. So think of it that that way, ask the question and to say, how do I make someone responsible for their actions? And what's the difference between doing that and being controlling? So I think I think my brain goes here a lot. But I think about work, right? Work in general, I apply for a job. And they tell me, all right, you want to work here, these are the hours, here's the pay. This is your job description. This is what happens if you don't show up and

do your job. And usually you get, you know, you might get put on like a performance evaluation or just fired. Yeah, but they're the the agreement is laid out. And I have volunteered for this. I'm asking for accountability in some ways, when I have signed up for the job. And relationships aren't too much different. But we don't talk about it this way, right. We're not like the coneheads, where it's everything's like very contractual discussed, and it's

out there. There's sort of like this unwritten agreement between couples that you discuss your your hopes and dreams for life, and this person will either nod and smile, or they'll be like, Nah, doesn't interest me at all.

Generally, the more nods and smiles, you get them, the longer you're together, because you you want the same things, you want the same things in life, it's sort of like this agreement you enter into, without really communicating it, which we'll get to in a little while, where you have sort of volunteered yourself to be held accountable to the mission of the relationship to the vision of the relationship. And some things are discussed, some aren't some could be a little

more clear. I think that's where these things get really screwed up. Yeah, a lot of the times that we get into relationships are the relationships are the relationships that we deal with, we have someone who had every red flag in the world president upon entering the relationship.

And they just assumed that like, a lot of people, they're just gonna grow out of this behavior, though, they'll quit doing coke, they'll quit smoking weed, they'll quit drinking so heavily, they'll just grow out of it without ever really being discussed. But they'll see these red flags. And then several years down the line, they'll say, you're not doing this stuff anymore. And the addicts will say, Dude, this is I've been doing this from day one. Like, what is the problem here? I've

always been this way. So now we have conflict. Yeah, we have this problem, right? Where it's, I want this and you want that now we're playing tug of war. This is the biggest problem that we deal with on a day to day basis

So whenever we're like upping our game, and this person is staying the same, it's like it's a slap in the face when we're like, hey, you know, catch up with me, catch up with me, but they're like, No, you already knew me how this is how I was beforehand, so you just have to accept me for who I am for the rest of our lives.

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unique goals. Tailored counseling group is your partner on the path of mental wellness experienced professional affordable care that puts you first visit their website, tailor counseling group.com. Or call them today to schedule an appointment and tell them to fo couple sent you a link and phone number is going to be available in the show notes. And back to the action. stuff. Because it's why all this is tricky, because it's a harmful behavior. It only affects them, it only affected

them. Generally, you wouldn't be seeing a whole lot. But this is starting to bleed into other areas where it's affecting your emotional security, your safety,

you never knew existed? Doesn't mean that you can't decide to change policies. I was gonna say, Yeah, I know where you're going with this, I could write on right up right here with you, right. So you can look

that kind of stuff. The issue comes when one person is dead set and change and the other person is nowhere near ready. Or hesitant to it. Okay, then we've got a problem. Yeah, you're playing tug of war with someone who is not moving. And you're not giving up either. We talked about what this looks like, and what happens and what the result of two people pulling nonstop is going to grow further and further apart. And you're going to create resentment over time. And nothing good comes of it.

Which is the elephant in the room of all of this. And the most difficult piece of this thing that God I'm gonna get grilled for saying it probably but a lot of relationships don't make it out of here. Yeah, they don't. And I think that it's so difficult because we're talking about an addiction. This is something that's got hooks in people, the disease concept of it all, like there's some validity to this, certainly I

won't say there's not. But this person, sometimes they don't want to change because they haven't seen how it's affecting their life, because this is just how they operate. This is their pattern of behavior. You know, this is just how their brain works. And should you have compassion for that. Yeah, to a degree, but the other piece of it is, uh, your needs matter to exactly what your needs matter.

Yeah, you matter. And if you are willing to sacrifice some of the best years of your life to wait and see if this person figures it out, more power to you. But you have to know what you're signing up for. And it's likely to be miserable at times, it's likely to be tricky, hairy, full of ups and downs. You're probably never going to get what you want. You get what you want in life. When you design a life, when you design your life and you find someone that wants the

same design. Exactly, yeah. But to have this this chasm in the road, this huge hole, this golf goalie and you're pulling on one side, and they're on the other, and you're saying this is what I want and they're saying I'm not ready for that. Someone has to give up. Yep. And walk off and say, I'm gonna have to do this on my own then. Yeah, that's often where things get. That's where we generally meet people most of the time. Yeah, they're at this place that this jumping

off place. I think that the number one question we get is How do I make them see they have a problem? Mm. Second Moses, how do I fix them?

opinion here, right? If you, if they have told you where they are, and you've told them where you are, and then you want to continue to track their phone, you want to count the number of drinks they have, you want to look for their drinks, you want to ask around and see where they were last Friday to see if they were lying. You want to hold them accountable. You are trying to force a round peg into a square hole. This person is not compatible with your values at

this point, right? Maybe one day, they could be but they are not at this moment. Yeah. And the resistance you feel is simply the resistance of one person that wants a and the other that wants to be I think the person now will validate you and say that you want a healthy life. You're right. You're correct. I hope that they see that one day, one day, they may see that, but it's unlikely you are going to affect that change through control. That is going

to create resentment. Yep. You can love someone, you can be there for them, you can support them, you can empower them, you can hold their hand and say I will do this with you. But if they don't want it, it's unlikely you're gonna get anywhere, right? That's the accountability piece. And controlling versus challenging someone. It's very similar. We talked about this kind of the intro when it came to challenging, I think that you've always been, when it came to accountability, you've never

really held me accountable. I guess in some ways you had like, there were some consequences and things but the challenging thing was from the very beginning. And it's like this old, this old adage, behind, behind every great man is an even greater woman. I personally believe that because that was my experience in life, it still is to this day, where you've always challenged me to level up to

want to be better. I think you you saw early on that there was potential in me, and you're like, ah, there's something in this one here. I'm going to if I think if I could challenge him enough, and if he'll listen and want to do these things like that he could be incredible. He could be amazing. I could be happy, he could be happy. And he could live up to his potential and you were you kind of took the lead there. I don't think

that's uncommon. And nor do I think it's unhealthy to challenge somebody.

people's locations. And we have that, especially for our kids and stuff, but we don't utilize it very often with each other. No, no, like, we didn't have that for a long time. But I think that that is a form of control, because you're trying really hard to see what this person is doing. And if they're doing something that you don't agree with, you want to be able to hold them accountable for that, when in reality, you're controlling them, and it's just gonna piss them off and make

them resentful. It would be

somebody for who they are. The part that's hard, is it these people are typically emotionally abusive, or they hurt you and it's really affecting, you know, your whole family unit. So you're like, God, do I have to control this person? Or how do I challenge them? Is it the way that you approach them? Do you try to challenge them first and then they say, I don't want to do that. And then you're like, Okay, I don't want to I don't want to deal with this anymore. I get it's all exhausting.

input. It just seeps, it's manipulating somebody, it's manipulating somebody to dictate their actions for your own benefit. But how do I how do I alter your, your state so that I get what I want out of this? Yeah. Okay. What's another one? What's another? What? are you staring at me? You want me to do it? Okay. positive intent. So when it comes to challenging someone, there's positive intent behind this. The intention behind challenging someone to be better is typically positive.

Yeah. Typically, like in this case,

intent. It's rooted in the belief that the individual has potential for growth and can achieve more with the right encouragement and support. The flip side of this involves a desire to maintain power dominance or serve the controller's interests, rather than focusing on the well being or growth of the other person. There is a difference there. When you're challenging someone to be better, you're also being

supportive. It's challenging behavior is always accompanied by support, guidance, maybe even resources to help that person achieve their goals. Okay, not your goals, right? Their goals, offering constructive feedback, providing opportunities for skill development, like you are there with them for their goals, not just your goals. The other piece would be more of an authoritarian figure where trying to coerce them, manipulate them, or just use force to ensure compliance with

your wishes. Yeah, there's a fine line, there's a difference. I think that respect for autonomy is perhaps the one that applies the most here. Okay. And we talked about this just briefly, or like, right before we started, yeah. So you have to respect their autonomy and their

own in their agency. Like I think when it boils down to what humans, especially in this country value more than anything, it's agency was another word to say freedom to make choices, like agency, like you're not taking away my freedom to make choices. You're encouraging me to make positive ones. But you understand at the end of the day, that I can choose whatever I want to do, I

have the freedom to choose. And as long as I have the, I have even the perception that I have the freedom to choose, I'm more than likely to do the right thing. When you box people in and you don't give them autonomy, you often get the opposite result. It's like reverse psychology sort of in the way. It's like I've always said like, I can drink right now. There's nothing in the world preventing me from drinking today, right? Nothing. I could go to liquor store right now. Buy a bottle of whiskey,

come home and get drunk. There's nothing stopping me from doing that. Which is why I love the power of choice. I have the choice to do that. I choose not to and you have respect for that. And you understand that if I don't, you've got boundaries in place and you will take action to protect yourself. But you don't have any actions in place that would punish me necessarily. For me my ability to choose Yeah, you know, like you you don't have a lock on my debit card. That doesn't allow

liquor store purchases. Yeah. Like I still have the freedom to choose I accepted that I have the freedom to choose. Yeah. That's huge. What are you going to say? You've been wanting to say something for the last 10 minutes, you're staring.

content being who they are. They don't care what you think they're just like, You know what, this is me. I'm gonna do me you do you I do not care. Challenging someone is, when done well, is a collaborative effort. It's respectful dialogue. It's discussion about goals, aspirations, and the steps needed to achieve them. This happens in healthy relationships where there is communication, about the direction of the relationship. Yeah, because things can change

overnight. In a relationship, if you're not communicating them, you will often get this divergence where you've got one side wanting to do one thing, and the other one's saying, What the hell, why did we decide to do this? And you feel like you're just torn apart? Yeah. But there's a difference. When you're challenging someone there is collaboration, right? Controls one sided. That's the difference. You've got your demands prioritized, and the other over the other person's

desires, or needs. I would say desires is more like it and when it comes to addiction, but this is like to say that they have a choice. Pause it may be that's their choice. I need your thoughts here. Because

so long. It's like, I'm just gonna keep trying, I'm gonna keep challenging, then it turns into controlling, and then you get crazy and you lose your mind on. Right. You don't have to accept your challenge. I've always been willing to accept your challenges. I've always been willing to accept anyone's challenge. So you do something. I'm going to do it. Yeah. But you've even learned that you can

just do that with me. Yeah, you can just tell me I can't do something without saying anything else and just just walk off and know that he's gonna He's gonna do

And then that's when you start losing yourself, because you're not living by your values, and you're not living by what you believe in, and you're putting all of your effort and focus and trying to fix this person, when in reality, they don't want to be fixed, you have to just put all of that towards yourself. And that's way more empowering.

type of communication. Because oftentimes, people have just gotten so far apart, yeah, from where they're at in life. And addiction can derail your relationship, it can derail your life. And we are a testament to the fact that there is hope for some, but for many others, they've gotten to a point where one is so unwilling to change, they have left the other with no choice, but to make their own path. Yeah, it's incredibly difficult. And like we've said, like knowing when to quit is

also a skill. Yeah, like knowing when to give up knowing when to quit, right. And when you're not going to sacrifice any more on this person. And you you know, you're trauma bonded codependent your emotions are not satisfied unless there's our and we just can't control people that much. We can't, we can't rely on others for our own happiness. Yep. Other people can enhance our lives, but they should not

be our lives, right? It's incredibly tough when you've got someone who, you know, there's potential there, you know, if they quit drinking, and they got their shit together, they could figure it out. Yeah. And like Richard Pryor said, if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle. We could What if this all day I know, it's

that's not the case. Like they, they they're they're in a position where like they're willing to do anything and their spouse is not going to move an inch. Yeah. Protect yourself. Yep, set up boundaries and protect yourself. Protect your peace, do what you have to do, and let go of the control. And we are here for you to support you along that path along your way. I know it's not easy. It's probably the scariest thing in the world, and we get it, we get

it. We've had to do this and other areas of our life, not so much our relationship. But it doesn't get any easier. I promise you that. It's incredibly. It's terrifying. It's freaking terrifying. But I hope we've cleared up some of the aspects of control versus challenging someone, or made you more confused than telling you when we first wrote this, like, I'll set the table eating she asked me like, Oh, that's easy to spit off, you

know, five seconds. And she's like, Well, what about when I'm like, Ah, now we're off to the books and reading about this?

a square hole. And more than likely will be for quite some time. Yep. Anyway, I think that's all we've got here today. Hopefully, we didn't confuse absolute crap at you. But if we did, let us know. We've got inboxes open and happy to answer any questions and clarify some things here.

from the listeners. Yeah, we started this thing kind of with the intent and we just put this out there, see what happens. And as it turns out a lot of people listen now. And so I want to make sure that we're providing the best content for you. Because we know that you can choose to listen to anything. You could download any number of episodes, but you're listening to us and that means something. So we want to make sure that we're showing up for you. We're okay. Well, I think it's all

we've got. Anything else?