Hello and welcome to Think Like A Game Designer. I'm your host, Justin Gary. In this podcast, I'll be having conversations with brilliant game designers from across the industry, with a goal of finding universal principles that anyone can apply in their creative life. You could find episodes and more at ThinkLikeAGameDesigner.com.
Welcome to season 3 of Think Like A Game Designer. I'm very excited to continue to bring you more amazing guests, design lessons, and tips about the gaming industry, but I also want to share something new and exciting that I'm launching this year. In addition to the podcast and the book for Think Like A Game Designer, I'm also launching a masterclass for those that really want to go deep into game design and work with an incredible group of people to take your projects to the next level.
We've already had an incredible beta group go through the course last year. It includes video lessons from me, access to an exclusive Discord group, monthly masterminds, or we can dive deep into the actual problems that you have with your own designs, and really walk you through everything that it takes to go from initial idea, whether you have a project you really want to work on, or you have no idea where to start, all the way through to getting your game published, whether that's launching it via Kickstarter, launching your own company, selling it to a publisher,
or whatever you want to do to make your game design dreams come true. If you think you might be the right fit for this course, go to Think Like A Game Designer.com to learn more.
In today's episode, I speak with Monty Cook. Monty is a legendary RPG designer who worked on not only the third edition of Dungeons & Dragons and helped revitalize that entire brand and the RPG concept in D20 System in general, but has also runs his own company has launched several hugely successful brands of his own, including new Monera, which had over $500,000 Kickstarter campaign, and tons of other really interesting, very unique worlds, and incredible storytelling capacity.
In the episode, we talked a lot about the process of designing these games, what it was like to be able to work on third edition, and the process of taking something that was so beloved as Dungeons & Dragons, and being able to revise it in the way that they did.
We talked about being able to run your own company, creating RPGs, and how you think about marketing in the modern world, and how you can really treat marketing as education of your audience, and the way that you're able to boil things down into elevator pitches. We talked a lot about empathy and how you build empathy with your audience, and being focused on what players do.
And I even pick his brain at the end of this episode about how one might make an ascension RPG, and what things I should be thinking about when I do that. For those of you that are listening, what would you think about me making an ascension RPG? If you think that would be something I should be spending time on, that you might be interested, go ahead and message me either on Twitter, at Justin underscore Gary, or any of the other channels where you can normally hear me.
But outside of that issue, honestly, this has so many universal principles that are going to be valuable to everybody. The core things, Monty speaks from a lifetime of experience in RPGs, but in reality, these principles, as you'll know, if you've listed in this podcast for long enough, are universal, and it's just great to get to hear them. And a lot of the really clever and interesting ways that Monty frames them. I found it incredibly valuable.
It was a great process that I'm actually going to go start working on some of those design ideas right now. But while I do that, you can listen to my talk with Monty Cook. Hello and welcome. I'm here with Monty Cook. Monty, it's great to get to chat with you. Hi, yeah, it's great. Great on my end as well. Excellent. It's always good when it works out that way. So we have kind of had similar connections and crossed paths in a variety of ways, but never really gotten to have a chat.
So I'm excited and I know there are actually members of my team who are flipping out that I'm getting to talk to you right now. If you have made many, many happy hours for many people that I know and love. So thank you. I'd love to hear that. And for one of the things that I always try to start these podcasts off with is kind of starting with your early career or even kind of before that. What kind of got you into into games and into design?
Because I think for a lot of people where they see where you're at now, it's really hard to picture picture a little Monty and what kind of brought you from there to here. Yeah, well, you know, games is something that, you know, I almost feel like I was born for it, which by that, I mean, I don't even remember not making up games.
Like I can remember being very, very small and just like taking one of those pieces of, you know, white paper and drawing squares around the edges, like a monopoly board or, you know, some other kind of board game and making up my own board games or whatever. It was just something that I would have always been really driven to do. I got into role playing games.
I started with war games like a lot of people do and, you know, I've heard more than one person have this same experience where just like out of the gate, I want like as soon as I learned what war games and things like that were, you know, which was a step up from, you know, monopoly or sorry or whatever. I just went straight into the deep end and bought myself the rise and fall of the third Reich. Wow. You know, that's how long you're going to get around.
Yeah. And of course, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it because that was, you know, I don't know, eight. So that's it. I think I think I was able to return it to this store and I got squad leader instead, which still, you know, that's still quite a big thing to bite off, but not quite as big.
But anyway, by about age 11, I had learned that the existence of role playing games, you know, just like I overheard a couple of kids talking about, you know, something to do with dungeons and and graph paper and like a magic crown. And I had no idea what they were talking about, but I knew I wanted in. And so I dove deep into that and really have never stopped. And that was a long, long time ago.
Sure. And did you start with Dungeons and Dragons or something else when you were getting first into it? Dungeons and Dragons. You know, we're talking 1977 here so that there weren't actually a ton of options, right. But you know, most people start with the ND.
Yeah. Yeah. No, it's as I've sort of gone through the the arc of, you know, dozens of these podcasts, they're overwhelming majority of inspiration points for the people who are now, you know, that the top designers is either Dungeons and Dragons or magic the gathering as the top answers of like, oh, my head exploded. Now I'm going to do these things. And it just depends on their generation, generally speaking. Yes.
Okay. So then, you know, you, you got, you've been passionate about games your whole life. You, you know, jump right into the deep end as an eight year old playing Ryzen Fold, third right, which is amazing. That's fantastic. And then, and then find RPGs and this is the sort of love that in this passion that is there. And so I assume you're, you're immediately started to just kind of create your own on the side and building your own campaigns. And then that right.
And so how does that end up becoming, you know, more serious for you as a career option? All my RPG stuff from the local bookstore and I walked into the bookstore and there was this new adventure module. Dwellers, the forbidden city, which is what was, was remarkable to me at the time because it said that the author wasn't Gary Geigax. And I think that was the only RPG author whose name I'd ever seen.
But it was someone named David Cook. And, you know, I thought, hey, that's, that's my name. That's my last name. And it was like the moment when I realized that it was someone's job to make this stuff. Like I don't think I'd really internalized that. And so, and that was probably about 14. And, and I just decided then and there standing in that old B. Dalton bookstore that it was, that was what I was going to do.
And, and it's what I did. I started. So in college, I started playing a game called Rollmaster, put out by a company called Ironcrown Enterprises. And, you know, for the few people out there who have heard of Rollmaster, you know, it's, it's an in-depth kind of hardcore millions of tables kind of game. Lots of people call it chart master, in fact. And, anyway, that was, that was, you know, my game to sure at the time.
And a friend of mine while it was in my third year in college, a friend of mine had gone to the origins game convention and met with the guys that Ironcrown found out that they were looking for writers and started talking about me. And, and that, you know, I mean, every button thinks that their, that their GM is great and could do this for a living and whatever. So I'm sure they heard that story a million times.
But he got their writers guidelines and, and whatnot from them and came back home and base and, you know, that your in college and, and just said, you know, you're doing this, you have to do this. And so I gave it a try and put together a proposal for, for a product that I knew that they were already looking for, which was a book of, of like monsters and magic items and, and just kind of was in the right place at the right time.
So I wrote my first two different published products while I was still in college. And is this, is it correct? So that's the first time you've written something like that? Or you're just, I mean, you've written campaigns for your, for your own play group prior to that. Right. And I've done. So I have a minor in, well, I guess it's the technical term is I have a focus in creative writing in my, my English degree.
And so I had been doing a lot of creative writing. And so, you know, writing was something that was very familiar to me. But this was definitely something, this was definitely something new. I mean, I did the thing that I think a lot of D&D players did when they were a kid, which is, you know, they took some adventure and they wrote it up, making it look like a, like a actual module, you know, but, that hardly counts.
Right. So, is anything. Well, you know, one of the things I try to do with this podcast is really sort of breakdown, you know, the universal principles, right? And where things are, that are, you know, sometimes it's, it is right place, right time. But very often there's a lot that's going on underneath the surface that lays the groundwork for that right place, right time, to be a thing.
And, and a couple of things that occur to me as I'm listening to your story, right? One is, you know, of course, you are DMing and creating these experiences for, for friends in your group. And it was actually one of those friends who ended up being the connector that made that happen. Right.
And so you were without expecting any pay at all, but because it was just something you were passionate about are creating these great experiences, which, you know, were clearly pretty high level experiences that then ended up creating an opportunity for you. So I think there's something really interesting there.
Of course, that person going to a convention is always something, you know, connecting to the larger communities and going when we're able to go to physical conventions that is doing that or being part of online communities at the very least is always something that I think helps create more possibility of you being in the right place in the right time.
And so those are, and then, you know, you were practicing the craft even in a different format, whether it's in college of writing how often would you, I mean, were you writing every day? Did you have a specific ritual or process? Was there something that, you know, you were using as a way to get better or make that something?
Because a lot of people that would love, I bet you there's a ton of people right now that are thinking, oh my god, I have this game idea, I have this story, I have this campaign, I would love to write it out, but I just can't find the time or I don't know where to start. Like, what are there, are there tips that maybe you have that could help people there? Well, it, when it comes to RPGs, there's, it's really the marriage of, of, of really good
solid writing plus game design. And I would say that they are both extremely important. And I, and I know that that's true for all kind of rules writing and whatnot, but I think role playing game is more than most other kinds of games require all the ability to create and, and, and describe, really interesting and evocative and intriguing sorts of characters and places and, and things like that. And it, it requires, there's a, there's a, there's
a succinctness to it. Because, you know, people who aren't really skilled writers, they either don't tell you enough or they tell you way too much and learning to be able to kind of create and, and elaborate on something, but, but do it just exactly the right amount, right? That, because role playing games, I always think, you know, if you're designing an adventure, for example, for a role playing game, you're not a storyteller. You're creating the tools
to make someone else become a storyteller. So there's a, there's kind of this empathy that is required of understanding what the game master who's reading this is going to need to know. Or if it's a, you know, if you're writing player-facing material, right, you've got to understand what is a player, what's going to intrigue a player, what's going to interest them, and then, and then what do they need to know and then give them that
and really know more than that, right? Because they're going to take what you've created and they're going to put their own creativity into it and, and you've got to give some room for that.
Yeah, I think that's, that's a really actually, you know, profound insight that, you know, they, they, they, they know, the mistake of not telling enough or telling way too much is, is, is a really great frame because, you know, the way I think about it when I'm, when I'm building these sorts of things is you want to put enough hooks out there, right,
with some good bait that people want to come in, right? They want to like, take it. And then from there, you want them to be able to run with it and not feel like they're, they're trapped or they're constrained by what you've built. You want to give them, uh, things that make you start thinking and start grow, you know, start being like, Oh, wow, I can follow this path or follow that path. Um, but I don't, you know, I don't have
to just sort of do exactly what was in the, the designer's minds. Uh, and that's not an easy thing to do. And it, and it, it seems like it's even compounded further. You know, I found a lot of RPG systems can be great with the right type of group, right? Like if there's a group that can handle a looser story, they can run with it. There's
some groups that really want to have a lot of restrictions and a lot of guidance. And they, and, and so when you're crafting an RPG, are you thinking about one of those groups in particular? Is there a way to write it so that people can kind of go as deep as they need to? Is there, you know, how do you, how do you think about it when you're building
these, these systems and worlds? Well, uh, you know, one of the best pieces of advice that I got early on was, uh, from a game designer and editor named Rob Bell, who, uh, he said, there are people out there who are super creative. They are, you know, they, they kind of just get role-playing games and, you know, whatever you put in front of them is, you know, they'll just automatically understand it and it'll, it'll, it'll be really easy for them. You're not writing
for those people, right? You're, those people don't, they don't need you, frankly, right? They're, they're kind of doing it all on their own. Uh, so it, it behooves you, I think, as an RPG designer to think about the different kinds of gamers out there. And, and, and you can do that in a lot of ways, right? There's the kind of like you were getting at. There's, there's people who are, who they just kind of, you know, they're, they're the guy and they're, they're, they're,
or, or, or, you know, I'm not trying to be sexist there. They're, you know, man or woman, and they, they want something cool. They're creative and smart and, and all that kind of thing, but, you know, they've got a busy job and they've got kids at home and, or they've got school, and they're just, they don't have time to sit down and create a whole thing for their group,
with a whole campaign, a whole adventure, whatever. And so you're just kind of giving them something and they're just going to read it and, and, and, uh, and use it, but, but they already kind of know what they're doing. And there's, so there's that group of people. And, and those people often want to inject their own creativity into it. They want to, uh, you know, kind of go off on their own. They want to have a lot of freedom.
But then there's people who aren't in that situation and maybe they're brand new. Maybe they just aren't, you know, they love playing role playing games, but they aren't a creator themselves. And those people need a lot more. Um, and, uh, and so it's, it's tough to create the balance between those two things, um, and, and give both of those groups what they want in the way that they want it. One of the things that, you know, I've been doing this for over 30 years and, and,
I'm still experimenting with. I'm still struggling with is, is the right way to present the information. Um, because of that, because everyone is coming at it differently. And, uh, you know, um, um, a game designer named Jonathan Tweet, uh, that I worked with on third edition D&D. He, he made the great observation that every role playing game product is, it is the thing that you read to learn how to play the RPG, but it's also the reference work
that you're going to use throughout your time playing that. And so, it, the first time you read through it, you need the information presented in one way. And then, for the rest of the time you're using it, you need to present it in a completely different way. Right. You need to be able to reference a rule quickly, because you know how it works. You just, you need to look it up. And that's, that's so true and so tricky to find the, uh, the, um,
sort of middle ground in there. So, uh, you know, I've already gotten, uh, I already kind of lost where I was going with that. But, no, no, well, I'll, I'll, I'll pick up on that part actually, because I think it's worth it. Like, not only, I think this is, uh, you're right, especially true in role playing games, but it's also true in all role books I've found. Like, there's, you want to actually think about things in terms of like, okay, it's my first time encountering
this. I need to go through and get everything. But then very often, some new dispute will come up, or you'll forget how a little thing works and you have to be able to quickly, you want to be able to quickly sort and find the rule that you want. And so, the, the idea of making something that is, you know, appealing and attractive to want to kind of interact with that can give you a clean ramp
up to understand what's going on. And then that can become a reference tool is like a, it's a, there are principles that you need to almost, you know, you're creating sort of three different books in one. Uh, and, and that is not, you know, it's not easy. As you said, it's not something that just, you know, you could be like, yeah, well, I've done this enough times. It's, it's no problem,
right? I don't have quite the, the, the, the, the tier of experience that you do, but I've been, you know, read rule books for 20 years now and, and I've found that, that, that same, that same problem and it's something you have to kind of keep trying to innovate more. Is there other ways
you can use graphics or illustrations to help bring things together? Is there areas where, you know, bringing in a story that kind of connects things together and creates some narrative hook, uh, where, or changing the fonts so that the, the, the, the crunchier rules jump out at you and if you're, if you're flipping through or indexes or, you know, there's a million different tools that are available, but understanding the principle of what you're trying to go for,
to be able to, is one of the ways that you could reach these audiences, right? The, the, the, the person who just doesn't have time and needs to put things together, the person who really needs a lot of guidance, the person who is even, you know, the, the super creative that, you know, that's easier to do, but that you want to give them something that's why they're going to come and join your, your world and plan your playground as opposed to any other one they could reach.
Yeah, yeah, you know, the, the word that I find myself using a lot nowadays is, is empathy, you know, and, and by that, I mean the, the ability to kind of put yourself into the, the, the place of, of the person who's, who's reading your material or, or trying to use your material at the table and, and figuring out what they need before they need it, right? Um, it's, it's,
it's a bit of a magic trick sometimes. Um, and I think that like, for example, one of the things that we did, um, in D&D, uh, in third edition D&D was we, we decided that examples were really good, uh, teaching tools. And so every time we would present a new rule, it would start with an example,
and that example would be italicized. And the reason for that was you would learn that, you know, once you come back and you're referring to it and you don't need to learn how it works, you just, you know, need to quickly reference the rule, you can skip over the example, you can skip over the, the italicized and get straight to the, you know, what, you know, what, what, what's the bonus for this action or whatever? And, uh, and that's, that's pretty good. And, and you're, you're, you're,
your mention of graphics and fonts and everything. I mean, that's, that's just such a huge, uh, playground, uh, for a creator, um, because, you know, now that we kind of can make our products look like whatever we want, uh, it, it opens up a whole new vista for how, you know, trying to understand how people get information and how they absorb information and, and how you can present it, you know,
in boxes and bullet points and, you know, uh, you know, the old way of, of, you know, from 1970, whatever, of, of doing a thing where you get a map that's on a piece of grid paper with numbers on it. And then a bunch of text that's keyed to those numbers, like, just because that's the first way that it was done does not make it the best way. In fact, I'm gonna argue it's not a good way at all to present
role-playing game information. And, and so, um, you know, just experimenting with that. I, that's what I would really encourage people if you are interested in getting to this hobby is, is, you know, learn what people have done, but then think of ways that they haven't done it, right, that presenting the information of, of coming up with, you know, the ideas for your games, like, like, there's a lot of room to just really blaze a whole new trail.
Yeah, and, and it's funny, you know, because when you think about it, it's like, you know, you've been doing this longer than almost anybody now, but it's, it's such a young genre in general, right? I mean, it's just, you know, whatever the role-playing game has been around for less than 50
years or so of like, actually, you know, the people have been doing this. And, and as the medium has evolved, and they've become more and more popular, not just in what you can do when you're talking about fonts and graphics, but now, you know, there's, how does your game look when it's streaming and doing video tutorials and like podcasts? It's funny. I was, it's always like, you know, I'm like,
hey, I wonder how my podcast is doing. And I'm in the gaming category where there's 25 Dungeons and Dragons and role-playing game podcasts that are more popular than anything that I've ever done here. And it's like, well, the people are passionate about this sort of thing. And so, how does your game present to that community? And how can you use leverage those tools to teach and create more evocative worlds and connections? Like, these are things that people are all still
discovering today. And so, I think it's a very exciting time to be working in the space. Yeah, that's a fantastic example. You know, people streaming games and watching games, you know, critical role and and similar sorts of programs they they have completely changed. They have they've upended the table as far as role-playing games go and which is a good thing. And, and they've introduced literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of new people to the hobby. And, and it's
just it's it's been kind of a revolution. And I would say that's only true of the last like four or five years at most that it's really made a really kind of changed everything. Do you I know it's it is super early on that front. But so what how has that changed your thinking about how you design games or or or foster communities? Are there any little tricks or surprising insights that you found that now given this new context, do you think about games and design
differently? Well, you know, it's it's it's kind of it is it is a new space and and I think we're all trying to kind of navigate it. We you know, we try to we we try it early on to do a lot of our own streaming games and whatnot. And that had only moderate success for us. And and I think it's because you know, we were a bunch of game designers trying to be streamers. And what we really needed to do is find some streamers who would work with us and and would because they knew what they were
doing, right? And there's no reason for us to sort of reinvent the wheel as far as streaming goes. So now what we're trying to do is is find streamers and create incentives and and and synergies there and and partnerships to have them play our games and show off our new our new material and whatnot and and expose it to an audience in a way. You know, I think it's like a whole new way sort of to to learn how these games go and how how to play them. I mean, I will I learned by doing I didn't
learn by sitting down and reading a book. And I think that a lot of people now are learning by watching. And and I think that's totally valid. I think that it's a fantastic way to learn how to play a role playing game is to watch a few episodes of Critical Role. The the flip side of that of course is is that you then you're going to go buy a book and you're going to start playing
the game and it's not going to be like Critical Role, right? Because you know, you're not going to be Matt Mercer coming out of the gate as as a game master and you know, we've we've seen a little bit of almost like I don't know what you would call it kind of almost like a negative aspect of that right where people get disillusioned by role playing games because it's just not what they saw
you know on on their streaming channel. But um you know, well, this ties back into that empathy point right and you can be able to figure out now you've got to play to that audience that's you know watching and the audience that then's doing and how do you make the game that's going to going to cross that bridge in the most effective way or you know that when they first pick up the book that it takes them from okay, I have no idea what I'm doing and it doesn't look like what I
see on YouTube so now what? Right. Like one of the things that we've discovered as far as streaming goes is kind of this was I would love to say this was intentional but it wasn't that like some of the games that I'm currently working on things like the cypher system and Numanera and invisible sun
um they're very much created to be very conversational like the very heart of the game design uh is is almost a brief sort of negotiation right the sort of the core mechanic is the the game master says this task is going to be this difficult and the player says oh but uh I've got
these various things and I'm going to do this various thing to try to make that easier and then when you've kind of come to that conclusion then then you roll the die and um it just turns out that that makes for really good streaming um because uh you know a game where it's very rules heavy
and you're your nose is always in a book or you're always looking down at your character sheet to calculate bonuses and and whatnot um that doesn't make for as good you know to use to use a uh a silly term right that's not good TV um and uh and so we've we kind of have stumbled upon that uh and
and we're trying to make more of that and and it also you know here we are in in 2020 right and everybody is playing over zoom or or uh roll 20 or whatever you know they're we're all playing virtually because we can't get together and it also turns out that um our game's work really
well that way uh we we're discovering because of that sort of conversation back and forth aspect at the heart of them but you know we're also you know quickly scrambling to come up with other ways to make uh games and game products that might be more useful if you are not all sitting around a table which is you know the opposite of of what I've been doing most of my career which is how do I make the experience of sitting at a table with my friends how do I make that as awesome as I can
yeah it's a really it's a benefit of anything everybody's had to react to uh lately and uh and you know it's it's it's funny even just working in tabletop generally speaking it's always been that well what differentiates tabletop from just playing a video game or you know playing an online RPG
it's like well the no I'm here with my friends I can you know it's like well okay well how about if you can't do that and that's like okay well uh there what what is it that no it and it's a great question answer and I think it's it's funny because I think role playing games are able to answer
that question better than most right because that that communal storytelling is just compelling on its own right that that the sort of free form of you know us able to sort of use our imagination and play within the sandbox is something that's compelling you know it's just goes back to our days didn't run a fire pit and you know it ran a fire and and telling stories I think it's it's just a very primal thing that we always want to do uh and so it's interesting to see how it adapts to to the new
world and you know streaming tools and whatnot yeah yeah well you know I think you know not until we develop true artificial intelligence are we ever gonna uh have a role playing game that is is sort of replaced by a computer game in its entirety right because it's it's the ability of
the living breathing human to react to whatever you can think of doing um that really makes uh role playing games I think something special right that you literally have no bounds as what you can try other than whatever the logic of physics of the game are um and
uh you know you just can't get that you know with a with a computer game setup I mean you can do a lot of really great things and there are a lot of great games out there but um you know nowhere does uh you know can you just literally say I'm gonna go off in this completely weird direction and I'm gonna you know try to interact with this thing that you know no one thought I was gonna
interact with uh accepted a real role playing game a tabletop. Yeah all right I was a couple of a couple of other topics I would love to jump to I you know for me you know I also grew up playing Dudges and Dragons and you know absolutely loved it and then you know the the third edition was this
amazing kind of revolutionary moment in the history of Dudges and Dragons and uh you or a critical part of building that and I'd love to just sort of go behind the scenes a little bit and talk about what that experience was like what things you know you're working with a lot of really
talented people and you're you're you're taking on a legacy that was many ways the foundation of your own game design you know love of games and uh what what what was going on and when this process was happening maybe you can kind of just you know put some insight behind for those of us who've spent countless hours playing these games and loving them what it was like when you were making some of those tough decisions because there was a lot of big breaks from the past that
couldn't have been easy. Yeah it was it was it was difficult um particularly at the beginning there just was there felt a lot of pressure a lot of responsibility um because this was a game that we loved and millions of people loved and you know we didn't want to screw anything up and so
early on we came up with this sort of list I think we called it the sacred cowlist like the the things that make D&D D&D that we absolutely would not change you know and there were things like six ability scores you know that go from three to eighteen and uh uh you know when you cast a
fireball you pick up a bunch of six-sided dice and and toss them all at the table at once and you know those kind of very very D&D moments we didn't want to lose any of those um and and you're right that I was working with a lot of great people and uh you know I already
mentioned Jonathan um but uh Skip Williams and uh Rich Baker and and a lot of people um and uh it you know when it was at its best uh the experience was literally me and a couple of these other guys sitting in a conference room at the office and just saying okay so today we're
gonna talk about second-level cleric spells and that was our day and uh I mean I it just doesn't get any better than that right I love it I love it um and and so that was great the process was just shy of three years um pulling that all together basically from from start to finish and uh
uh it was just it was great and it went through a lot of different iterations you know what became third edition was not what third edition started with at all and um that was through you know experimenting and play testing and um you know just honing right uh so so to walk to walk through
through this in a little bit more detail so you start off the process with these kind of fundamental design pillars right these are the things that are core to the experience of Dungeons and Dragons whether it's you know I you know even to simple things like which numbers you're using or the
actual visceral experience of the dice roll or specific other things and that became your kind of load stone and then from there did it was it just literally just going through each thing one by one and saying okay what do we want to do with this what is what what a what a second-level cleric
spells feel like or was it well there's probably there's probably an intermediate step in there um uh like so people don't even really even people who played second edition and first edition they don't even I don't think often remember what they were like right there was no core mechanic in
in Dungeons and Dragons uh until third edition so you know literally like if you were making this kind of roll you were rolling you know and and and trying to get a high number and then the next round you might try something different and it's a completely different mechanic and you're trying to
roll a low number on your die and it was just um you know it was really uh geared toward the people who like had a command over the walls like you you needed to really know the game um to play it and you know from the outset we wanted to make the game more approachable simpler but you know
and pay attention more to the casual player and uh and so you know the biggest part about that is just coming up with the core mechanic of I mean it sounds it just sounds so obvious right it sounds so um um like of course that you did that right but um but it was actually a big
deal in Dungeons and Dragons um and so you know that that you you know took a modifier from your ability score and your skill and you added it to a D20 roll and that's the way you did everything was it was a big deal and and so there was a lot of talk about that and and just sort of
the big big picture um you know Peter Ackinson who was uh uh the head of which is the coast the founder of Wizards the coast um was a big D&D fan and so he played a big role in the early development of the game um you know so so literally I'm having these design meetings and
and sort of my boss's boss's boss is in there with me um you know talking about um um you know what he thinks we should do and that's that's a whole dynamic right there for sure for sure yeah um and you know but he was the one who said you know do whatever you need to do to make this
the best game it can be even if it means changing things um that people are really really used to and you know we really took that to heart because because like you know like you said it was it was it was a big departure from previous editions yeah no let's I mean the A that's a great
testament to Peter I know I know Peter very well and we've uh I know how passionate he is about uh this project and you know role-playing games and Dungeons & Dragons in particular I mean I would say that's probably at the near the top of his list of things he's proud of is being able to sort of
shepherd Dungeons & Dragons through this this process or be a part of it um and I think that the uh the core principle that you talked about you know you you you kind of joked about it sort of being simple and obvious but it is it is so far from it for most uh and I so I would just want to
resay it again because I say it we have a lot it'll like up up a lot of conversations right is that finding that core mechanic that's going to serve the purpose that you want to serve and building everything around that and is is this very important thing and and and cleaning out and getting
rid of the things that don't serve that purpose and so it's it's very hard because there's a lot of mechanics that you could be attached to and this doesn't just apply if you're building on a game that existed before but even in your own designs and your original designs very often I mean I know
I've been carrying this right now in a project that was these really cool mechanics of my game and I'm like I have to ask myself does this serve the core of what's going on is this really needed here can I do this with can I do more with less and it's something I think every designer has to stay focused on no matter how hard that process becomes which it it it's never easy you know core mechanics one of those things where you you know you have to like like you said you have to make it so that
everything fits and and if you don't like when you're doing that initial play testing and you've got something in there that just clearly doesn't go with you know one of these things is not like the other kind of situations it becomes really obvious right where we're suddenly the game kind of
screams screams to a halt and you're suddenly dealing you know what I'm rolling a percentile by now okay you know and and you can really see that but that doesn't often come out until you actually start doing those initial play tests right yeah there's no there's no substitute for
for play testing when it comes to things as great as something can sound in your head right or on paper when you're running it down the the difference of of what it's like in an actual play group and I think this ties back in a little bit to your earlier point which is you know how important
empathy is right being able to understand what it's like for somebody to be playing through your game and and I'd meant to ask you earlier but maybe it's worth diving into now it's like you know how do you develop empathy how do you train yourself to be better at this and I think one of the one of
those tools of course is is play testing right and be able to learn to watch your playtesters and find those areas not even necessarily where they're going to tell you that something is wrong but where you can just see now they're they're hesitating and they have to put down the d20 and pick up d10s
and figure out what's going on next or you know those moments where you can really feel the confusion or loss or or loss of energy and momentum in the game yeah I think that I think that you really kind of hit that on the head where it you know if you spend a lot of time and actually this goes back
to our streaming portion two where we're talking about that where watching people play is a fantastic way to develop that because you know you have I think in a innate sense just just as you know a person that you know like you want there to be energy you want there to be you know
things to be moving along quickly and you want things to be exciting and people to be engaged and you can watch when that happens and when that doesn't happen and you can start to see oh you know if I had written this in a different way if I had given them a different piece of information
or if I had cut this whole section out because it's actually kind of slow and boring um you know you you you begin to learn and figure out that kind of empathy of understanding what what makes the game work really well and you know I always tell other designers other RPG designers you know
you have a particular skill in this that other game designers might not in that what you're actually doing is your role playing right you are taking on the role of of a GM sitting down at a table with their friends and you know thinking about what they need and what they want and what not
and and it's it's really kind of the same thing you're you're putting yourself in someone else's position um because you know that's the that's the thing that I see tripping up even really experienced designers is you know that idea that okay I understand how this works in my head
and I understand how I think this should go and so that I'm just going to write this and and and put it down and and that isn't always that isn't always the the only way or it isn't it is clear as you think it's going to be yeah yeah I think although I love the idea of that yeah
as a role playing game or you're just function you need to role play as your role playing gamers I feel like maybe there's maybe there's a meta game we could design here the RPG where you play other people playing an RPG um I have played that game actually of course you have
so I think that that I know that it is it is that being able to you know sort of put yourself in somebody else's shoes and and sort of try to understand things from their perspective and it's something that that yeah takes practice and observation but it's critical to every every
aspect of design and I mean literally every aspect of design I don't care if you're designing shoes or you know games or whatever right that's what you need to be doing um and uh I mean literally put yourself in someone else's shoes I guess yeah okay so I think uh I think there's tons of
of great of great principles here and and and I I'm sure we could dig forever into into a lot of the the nuances of of of RPG designing game design but I also really want to talk to you a little bit about some of the business side of of RPGs and gaming because I'm pretty sure that if I thought
I could make a good living at designing RPGs that's what I would have done also and you started on that plan without you're just like that's what I'm doing from when you're whatever it was 11 or 12 you're like that's it I once I know this is possible I'm doing it uh and uh I think that most people
don't you know in fact one of the reasons like my company we've been talking about making an ascension RPG for the longest time I mean for literally at least eight years now and we've kind of played around with the idea but it's very hard to think of investing the enormous amount of time
and energy it does to build a great RPG when for most people the experience is it's it's a narrow audience with not that much upside and you've been able to create companies and projects that are like outrageously successful I think you had over what half a half a million dollar funded kickstarter
for for new man era or a variety of successful kickstarter's huge things and so maybe we could talk a little bit about that how how you know what is maybe keys to your success or how should people out there be thinking about this sort of thing and how can I make a profitable ascension RPG so I
can work on that take those in any order okay okay those are easy questions no they you know it you don't here's the thing that that I feel like pretty much everyone who's who's been in any industry for a long time is going to tell someone who's just getting in right and that is you don't
you don't prob unless you're like the one in the million shot you don't start off your career with a super successful game and and you know a huge earning kickstarter's and everything um it takes a lot of work I mean and I I started you know as a freelancer and got paid very little
and and then I went to work full time at a game company and got paid very little and you know and I just decided that I was okay with that and and you know eventually things got much much better but but you know I started you know literally on the ground floor and
uh and so there's there's a lot of that um but I think that a lot of the game design principles that we were just talking about also tie into this right I think that if you've had some success and if you've created some games and some game products and whatnot that like I don't think there's
anyone in the world who's sitting down and thinking oh Monte Cook he designs those games and they clearly have a lot of empathy and they seem to really uh you know speak to all kinds of gamers no one's sitting down and thinking that but they are thinking oh Monte Cook I like his stuff um and
you know hopefully hopefully they're saying that um and uh but but I think if you were going to explore why that is I think it would be because it you know and it took me a long long time and lots of trial and effort right but but but picking up on those kinds of things that we were just
talking about and putting those in your games um and and making them making that be your through line like like just you know uh it just sounds it just sounds so meaningless to say just make good games and eventually you'll succeed but but the more you know yeah I mean you know it's hard
no I do I know I want to so I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna say some things that 100% agree and emphasize what you said and then I'm gonna push back a little bit for purposes of good discussion because I think it is exactly the same advice I gave to anybody that wants to get into the
tabletop industry you know you have to be able to you want to work on the craft right you know I've been doing this for 30 years I've been doing this for 20 years plus I was a pro magic player for a bunch of years before that where I was working on you know different sides of the gaming
industry you want to be making connections and adding value and building communities over time you know you don't just launch a kickstarter to nobody you launch one that you've built you've earned people's trust and attention over time and you have are much more likely to succeed right these
are things that take a lifetime not not an overnight success or a couple of months and and I think that the other piece of this which you've you've you didn't mention explicitly but it's clearly evoked as part of your stories it's got to be something that you're passionate about right that
you would your passion is what's going to carry you through those years of low pay and failures and trials and figuring things out right if you're not passionate about what you're doing then I think you're gonna you know you're gonna hit a wall and it's not gonna come across and I think
that passion is also the thing that's gonna be way more likely to make your games successful because you can better empathize with the other types of people that are passionate like you are right and so I think I think those things are all 100% fundamental parts of success and
and a lot you know working on the specific skills of you know empathy and iteration and play testing and all of that so you know even though it sounds cliched and it's you know you feel weird saying it like I say it over and over again I think people need to hear it over and over again
because it's not that it's complicated but it doesn't make it easy either so that's my that's my warm and fuzzy agree part my my other part is like you know I like I like you I also I'm a game designer and run a company and I also feel like I have to make decisions when I'm going to
pick a genre to work on right there's many things I could be passionate about I like a lot of types of games it feels like the RPG world is a very particularly tough one I can't think of many other examples of people who have reached your tier of success exclusively or primarily in in RPGs
because it's just they don't they don't monetize particularly well on their own there's you know there's a lot of competition low barriers to entry lots of niche kind of components to it and so I is there something about that space or the way you've interacted with that space or is it just
you know look it's the same as every other you just got to keep grinding at it or is there something more to it when somebody's thinking about that's what I want to do I might I might look at it this way I think that that there's two approaches that you can have and this is probably
true of a lot of different things but but I only know RPGs so I'm going to talk about RPGs and that is you can either figure out what people are doing already and what they really like and and then just give them lots more of that right and so in the RPG field that would be you know
traditional fantasy with elves and dwarves and you know wizards of pointy hats and you know that that kind of token-esque fantasy and you know just just do that really well and you can have some success at that that is I would say for the last 20 years and really probably the whole time
um that is not the path that I've taken I have taken the path of you know appealing to the people who you know they've they've read those books they've seen those movies and they're ready for something else and they want to go off in a completely different direction and and they're looking
for the spark of creativity the the the the bit of you know kind of brain exploding sort of ideas of you know what if it was earth but it was a billion years in the future kind of kind of thing and and and so like I I wouldn't make it as simple as you know I I have aimed my products at you
know experienced gamers versus inexperienced gamers because I don't think that it actually slices quite that way but I think that there's a knowing who who is probably going to be interested in your product is probably a really important aspect of of the business side of this and and
figuring out what that kind of person wants and what will intrigue them you know when you when it comes to marketing you know how do you how do you get their attention um and but just knowing your audience and and understanding that it's not enough to just say oh well you know gamers like
X right because it's a fallacy to think that all gamers are you know a single entity like that and so you know yes I have I have subdivided the audience um and and and sort of by definition I'm not going to peel to every gamer out there but I think that that's probably a foolish goal anyway
yeah 100% I think the the the idea of you know trying to appeal to everyone is the same thing as appealing to no one right you can't you can't be everything to everybody knowing your target audience is absolutely critical right it's it's and it's great because we've you know you said you only
know you know RPGs but I these are these are the universal principles right know that what are your core tenants right what are that what's the emotional core of what you're going for what's the core mechanic that's going to serve that have empathy for your audience know who they are know where they are what are they doing now what are they like now what are they missing now right and then being able to build things around that or at the very least tailor what you're building towards
that I think is is really key and you also you know you sort of mentioned it but as you know you're you're targeting an audience that's not necessarily just the super sophisticated people but people who have played these games before and are looking for something new and different
and even if that subdivise your audience smaller you can give them exactly what they're looking for you can create super fans and those people and even it doesn't take that many of them to be hugely successful especially as a solo designer those people are the ones that you can really make so happy
and make their lives much better even if it means that millions of other people are going to hate what you do even right not it's not for them you know it's important to know what your game is not for as it is to know who it's for right right and that's it that that that's an interesting space
too because you know if sometimes I think people get angry right when when you make something and it's clearly not for them right and and they will interpret that as it you know it's it's terrible it's bad and you know you're going to see those posts online or whatever and and you just have to
learn say okay you know I wasn't you know to use your your shoe example that you were using before right well I wasn't you know you're you're sad that you can't run in these dress shoes but I wasn't making you know I wasn't making sneakers I was making dress shoes and you know that's just
that's just the way it is and and that's okay that you don't like them and and but then you know you then you turn to the people who you are appealing to and you kind of you focus on them understanding what they need which is again a whole nother big topic because it's dangerous to
just kind of say what do you need right because the you know people and I myself included right like people are are good at expressing what doesn't work but they're not great at expressing what does right and so they might tell you well you know I'm just going to pull an example out right like
combat moves a little slowly in this game so it would be cool if you did this right and the thing to take away as a designer is the first part of that sentiment right oh combat's moving a little slowly because their suggestion you know it might be great but it might not be great right
because they're not a they're not a game designer and so you I think you pay attention to the needs but not the wants I guess is maybe the way I would break that down right yeah there's a couple layers so this one is as a quote that long time listeners will be familiar with because it's
basically my favorite quote for my favorite author is neo neo gaming that when your readers tell you that something is wrong there's almost always right when they tell you how to fix it they're almost always wrong exactly that is exactly what I'm saying yes good job you know at yeah turns out
he's really good with words and so that's something that that you you know you start out to fight again it's not about arrogance it's about you know that is just your job as as the craft is to be able to use the tools your disposal to create the experience in the audience it's that their
job is not to to figure that stuff out but they are the only metric that matters right their experience is the only real judge and so you if they're if you're seeing a problem and a very common thing for new designers is does it like oh they just don't understand right you just don't really
does work if once you really know what I'm going for here it's going to be great and that's just that's a recipe for disaster as is the reverse of trying to appeal to everybody right the the classic example from from my world is like everybody wants to remove mana screw from magic right
everyone's to get rid of the the randomness of I didn't draw the lands that I got I wanted and and that would be it would ever the game would be so much better if it was predictable and the reality is no it's would be so much worse in fact I've worked on games like that you know it's
a terrible thing that feels like it would be a good idea but but the nature of that randomness does so much work for the game and and creates the excitement in the best moments and so it is a it is important to sort of understand that those inner workings and and again that just comes
from from skill and and and practice as a as a designer I want to pick up on one of the thread though he because I you said something interesting that you know you don't appeal to their wants appeal to their needs and that made me think of two things because one is this this idea that we were just
talking about but the other is to some extent you do need to sell them on their wants right because the the thing that is the what gonna get them to buy your game or try your game in the first place is giving them something that sounds like something they would want and and I'll give you I'll give
you a a tangential example right like I just launched a beta version of a of a course for this for teaching game design and I'll be putting out a bigger version later and it has all kinds of material in it but you know the most important thing to teach people is these exact principles
like we're talking about the fundamentals of design right how do you create a core design mechanic how do you test it how do you understand what's going on there how do you build that in the iterate and but what they want to know is how do I launch a kickstarter right they want to know how do I get
the game published how do I get the graphics done and like they want to know this stuff that's like just not as important when you're up front and and is so but I had to put that material into the course to help to get people excited about it and get people to so I'm kind of selling them on what they want and then giving them what they need yes that is that is very insightful and and very much very very much a truism and I find that for a lot of my projects you know for for the you know I make
weird games my you know my RPG settings and everything it very rarely are they kind of straightforward oh you've seen this before kind of stuff and so often what I have to do is I have to it I find myself explaining to people why this is something that they've always wanted even though
they didn't know they needed it right and and so a lot I feel like a lot of our marketing is actually sort of education right we're you know having to explain sometimes you know pretty weird out there concepts uh and so that means that we have to figure like we spend most of our time
when we talk about marketing we spend it like how do we get this thing across you know very simple straightforward kind of elevator pitch kind of way and um you know that's a that's a whole skill all by itself that is actually pretty you know extraneous to game design but it's really important
to game marketing and you know we're uh you know we're running a Kickstarter right now but actually I'm working on the next Kickstarter and uh you know thinking a lot about that because again it's it's kind of new and weird concepts and and and it comes down to you know to go back to your
wanton need kind of thing it it it it comes down to understanding the nugget of the thing in your game that is the that is the thing that's going to push the button in someone's brain that says yeah I would I do want that right like you're pointing out with the Kickstarter versus the you know
actual ground level stuff like that's really smart and and and and I tried to do the same thing um uh yeah I mean with uh you know marketing is I'm sure we could do a whole nother podcast about about yeah yeah no what what I loved I loved the the phrase you use marketing is education uh I think
the idea that like what you're trying to do is just really help people understand what it is that you've made and then let them decide if this is for them or not right we're so often especially in the in the gaming space a lot of it is like there's so much to digest to really know whether this is
something I'm going to like and whether or not that you know the investment to make the purchases one thing but the investment of time that it takes to read a rule book and get into a game and get a group
together and run a campaign or do you know whatever right it's a lot you're asking of people and so being able to educate them on okay this is what the experience is going to be and this is how it's different from what else is out there and this is what you might like and you know you talked about
elevator pitches being you know different or you know somewhat separate from the game design process but I don't I don't view it that way I mean I I really do view it as as pretty central to it right when you talk about what your core emotion is what your core mechanic is what the main hook of the
thing is I do like to think about it in terms of an elevator pitch even early in the process and when I try to explain it to people I try to refine it throughout the design what how am I saying this to somebody how can I get this message across how can I educate and I didn't think of it in those
terms but I really like that how can I educate in the most you know precise and kind of punchy way possible to get someone wanting to learn the next thing wanting to come along for the next piece of the ride and so I think it's and especially for people out there that don't you know if you don't
have an audience you're just getting started you're trying to sell your game you know it's true for everybody but especially in that space like you know you've got to be able to make something that's got the ability to be pitched well it's got to have a good hook if it doesn't nobody's going to
pay attention you know a great way to to learn that is to uh you know go to Jencon and and work in a booth and or or you know I'm sure yes 100% working working a game store right and and pull a game off the shelf to a gamer in front of a gamer and say okay here's what this game
I was about because you will you'll say some things and you'll see their eyes kind of glazed over and they won't care right and then you'll come upon one thing right that you've said and then suddenly you'll see their eyes brightened and and you'll realize oh that's it right that's the
that's the key um you know that that's the thing that makes this special or interesting or or useful or you know something that's desirable and and that is that is such a useful tool is to is to be able to kind of figure out what your elevator pitch is I mean I have I have had games
that we have made and when we initially tried to sell them we kind of did it wrong right and it wasn't until further into the process that we kind of stumbled upon oh that that's that's the appealing thing about this game you know we know we knew it was a great game it but but communicating
that is is a whole process of figuring out yeah that's so that's so right and I remember exactly what it felt like you know what I'm first starting to demo games at the booth at Jen Connor one of the other conventions and you just like you you know you go through a hundred reps over the course of
that of the show like pitching the game pitching the game pitching the game and you refine it you figure out what works in so you know I can do a an ascension pitch and demo in my sleep now exactly what to do and how to get people hooked and wear that and then exactly the moment where they they
become hooked and take off and then I don't need to be there anymore it's really funny and yeah it's just there's no substitute again this is about that training of empathy and you know trying and playtesting you're you're playtesting your pitch basically and and seeing what seeing what happens
absolutely all right I uh we're we're running nearest to the end of time and I know my team would kill me if I didn't spend a little time talking to you about our ascension RPG concepts because I don't know how familiar are with ascension in general um but we're a deckbuilding game
we've created our own sort of fantasy universe there's four different factions that are built into different worlds and we have you know been making the game for we we just celebrated our 10th anniversary you know the game is uh very beloved but it appeals very much to the sort of the cross
between the kind of dominion classic deckbuilding and magic the gathering kind of sealed play drafting played more dungeons and dragons the theme story um and so we've we've you know without going too much into the world specifically I'm wondering about this ability to take the audience that I have
the people who really enjoy this kind of deckbuilding game into the universe and bringing them into an RPG world because I feel like there's this whole fantastic thing because I again I grew up on RPGs
and I love them uh but I have these fears around how can I take what I have and help bring those people over into into the fun of of role playing games well that is you know that that's an interesting challenge and uh it's kind of the other side of the coin that I was that I was talking about where
you know you you've got uh I don't I don't I don't mean this to be dismissive but you've got a a kind of a traditional fantasy kind of background a kind of world I mean I I realized that it's new and original but but but but the but the thing is is that you are facing down like you know the
giant gorilla of dungeons and dragons right and so I think the absolute first question you would have to ask is if we made an RPG what could we offer the world that that they can't get with dungeons and dragons and and I think that you have to look at it from the game design point of
you I think you have to look at it from the setting point of view the character options one like I think each one of those has to have at least one thing that is like okay you can't do this in D&D you don't get this in D&D and and some of that just might be emotional right like like you know
people have had a lot of success over the years like just coming up with like a dark fantasy RPGs right and and those go head head with D&D but you know they offer a kind of emotional experience that you can't get with sort of vanilla D&D right and so that's what that's where that's where
I would start knowing knowing that you know a huge percentage of your customer base is probably already playing D&D right if you're talking about an ascension RPG you know you're you're kind of entering into that their realm and so you know giving them giving them reasons to play your game
in not D&D or your game and D&D is yeah yeah no I think that's I think it's a great way to look at it and it's it's funny too I may appreciate you you know uh couching in in in very soft language because you know we I think we do we did spend a lot of effort to create an original world
an original story but we also purposefully did playoff of the common fantasy tropes sure because as a new company and new thing I wanted to get people immediately into okay I understand I don't I wasn't able to tell them a story in a traditional way right I didn't have a
full storybook or anything like that I had to you had to be able to see a card and an art piece and maybe a line of flavor text and know what was going on and be able to connect to that world and so so it's a it's a great point that like yeah okay I have to make sure to very much distinguish
the elements of our world that are different there uh both in story scope is one of the things we've talked about right the the characters ascension are sort of these legendary warriors that are very high tier as opposed to sort of Dungeons and Dragons more classically you know starts as the
feeling of an adventure working your way up and so there's the scale of the story and the scope can be one area to differentiate um you know mechanics is an area where I think I feel the most comfortable because I think there's some really interesting things you can do with what you know
what people might expect from a game that already has tons of art pieces and cards and things but that's been that's been a fun thing to play with like I said it's something we've been having on our back burner for a very long time and because it's a passion of all of ours but uh it's been
it's not an easy thing because like you said yeah we're going up against the 800 pound gorilla in the space that you know we don't have as much experience in at least professionally yeah it's such a it's such a double edged sword because you know the universality of being able to talk about you know
like like I think you know you hit the nail in the head like you sit down and you start showing somebody a card game and the cards have words like elf and dwarf and wizard on them people know what those things mean and you know if it says you know boggle and wazards and right
you know it's just like okay this is just uh this doesn't mean anything to me there's no I don't it doesn't evoke any emotion in me it doesn't uh it doesn't it doesn't say anything and so that that I think is a very powerful tool but then later on right the other edge of the sword is that
now how do you how do you distinguish yourself from from everything else that's like that and I think that you know one thing that I would do for sure is I would focus on players so many times when um uh you know a brand new designer or a person who wants to be a designer comes to me and he
said and I say okay you know what do you what do you what do you have I uh and and and they start talking about the world well it's this world and there are these mountains floating in the air and whatnot and and that's all cool but but I think the place you ought to start with is what do the
players do um and and I think that I think your elevator pitch needs to include that information right such and such is a is a game where you know characters whatever it is they do right to explore floating mountains in the sky or or whatever it is um and and uh you know
it took me a long time to figure this out even though it's it's just so stupidly obvious right but you know for every for every game master there's four or five players right that's that's your RPG audience and so you know people are always marketing the game masters but they're you know
they're the smaller part of your audience and you know so if you can make things appealing to players you've really uh really accomplished something that's a great uh a great piece of advice to end it on um this has been such an enjoyable conversation Monty I'm really uh glad we got to do this and
appreciate you taking the time uh yeah I've enjoyed it too for people that want to see more of your stuff read more play more learn more where can they go uh Monty Cook games.com is pretty much a a great resource um it'll send you off to social media or our current kickstarter if we have one or you know uh we have a newsletter you can sign up for uh there so that's where I would go.
Great well once again uh it's been a genuine pleasure and I want to thank you for the I can't even count how many hours of joy that uh your games have provided myself my team and I'm sure the many many thousands of people listening right now so thank you again. Thank you so much for listening I hope you enjoyed today's podcast if you want to support the podcast please rate comment and share on your favorite podcast platforms such as iTunes, Stitcher or whatever device
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