Hey everybody. It's another week and time for yet another episode of Therapy Natters, the podcast series where myself, Richard Nicholls, and fellow hypno psychotherapist, Fiona Biddle, sit and have a natter for half an hour about something that you've either suggested to us via a form on our website, or just through the ether. Through popular culture. And we thought we'd better talk about that. So we do. Hey Fiona, welcome.
Thanks, Richard. How? How are they? How many questions are you getting through the Ether
Through the ether. Um, I hear things through the ether. I should see somebody about that. No, what I meant by that is obviously, the stuff in popular culture, do you watch reality tv? I don't. I'm totally out the loop on that sort of stuff.
I watch a few reality TV things. I blame Louise she told me that I should watch Love Island, so I did, and then she stopped watching it, which is very unfair. But I occasionally watch that. I watch The Apprentice, a few bits, but not an awful lot.
We can create a lot of episodes from those sorts of programs.
that's the excuse I give to people when I do watch them is that it's to support my work
You're listing it as CPD are you?
No, no, no, no. I mean to people, you know, like sons and friends and things. Oh, I have to watch this because I learn a lot. And there, there is an element that how much is constructed, how much isn't. I mean married at first sight is an interesting one cuz when that first started, I think that was fairly real. Now it feels very constructed.
Most of them do have script writers nowadays. And it's very heavily edited to match the script that they've already set up. it's horrible to think of it that these reality shows are fake, completely fake. They're just Amdram actors playing along.
Some, I mean, TOWIE and that sort of thing are definitely
Yeah.
and, and so on. I don't know how much others are, but expect it's on a continuum.
Yeah, but you can learn a lot from looking at the interactions with other people because even if, even if it is sort of improvised amateur dramatics, these reality shows. The way they're acting comes from a real place, especially things like Love Island and Married at First Sight, and a lot of these similar sorts of shows where it's all about how you react to other people.
Big brothers coming back, isn't it?
Oh, is it? I didn't realize that. Wow. Now, as therapists, those sorts of things are gonna really interest us because, you know, we are interested in people, we're interested in what makes us tick and what motivates each other. But I think we all need a little bit of psychoeducation to figure out what makes each other tick. Not just ourselves, but other people as well. I think that's really helpful.
And I think that's kind of what this series, I hope, can do for people that they can listen to us have a little bit of a natter about stuff and gain some insight into themselves and each other to help them in their friendships, their relationships. They get to know a little bit more and see things from different perspectives
And by gaining awareness of what might be going on for somebody else it expands our, choice as to what we do, the choice of perhaps moving from a reactive place to more of a responsive place. So not just automatically going off down a particular route, but taking moments. Doesn't have to be long, but moments to consider. And as I say, choose a way to go. Well, we've had a question, haven't we?
Yeah, because we had a question that I know full well that our listeners will hear and they'll form an opinion in their mind one way or another. And it would be good to explore different perspectives on this and how that falls into different types of therapy. Definitely. Your turn to read it out, Fiona, I think.
I, I will, I will. I was just gonna say, if, we had the facility to do it I I would get the listeners to write their response and then we could compare all the responses because that would be really interesting cause there would be a range. But,
Well, if we ever did a live stream, we
yes we could, but we don't, so we don't, okay,
no.
it's quite a long question. Hello Richard and Fiona. My question is about my long-term relationship with my husband. We've been together for over 12 years and have been married for five. We love each other very much, but there are some aspects of him that feel very controlling. He has never hurt me or threatened me, and I know that he is a good man, but this Christmas has been particularly difficult.
He made it clear that we had to spend time with his family multiple times over the Christmas period, even though we have done that for the majority of our relationship. And made me feel like I was in the wrong for wanting to see my own family even once. This is nothing new and often happens the same way with our friends. If I want to see a friend, he complains that I'm being inconsiderate and yells at me, but if he wants to see a friend of his, it's not a problem.
In the past, I've just put this down to him being selfish, but I do tend to give in to his demands. This means I'm on eggshells for most of my life in case I say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing. I feel like I'm losing myself, who I am. But I can't stand up to him. He earns more money than me and both our wages go into a joint account that he manages. Together, both salaries cover our monthly outgoings with plenty to spare.
I do not have access to the joint account, and each month he transfers an amount of his choosing to my own account. if I ask for more, he reminds me that it would have to come out of his share and either refuses or makes me feel guilty by reminding me for days and days afterwards. He even calls our house His House. As it's really his money that pays the mortgage. I feel like a lodger.
Things came to a head very recently when I told him that I'm tired of being second class to him and I would like to study and become a Lawyer. He went crazy. He listed so many reasons why I shouldn't, most of which revolved around it meaning I wouldn't be available to him. It's like he wants to keep me down. I didn't want to have children. Before we got married he agreed that we wouldn't, he changed his mind as soon as we got married and persuaded me to try, although I was very reluctant.
We haven't actually had children, but he is constantly pressurizing me and blaming me for not getting pregnant. Would couples therapy help? I think it would, but I'm scared to tell him that we might need it. He takes criticism very personally. As I write this I feel guilty saying bad things about him as I know he's a good man. He makes me laugh and is a great friend and kind son, but I'm not sure he knows how to be a good husband. Sorry for writing so much.
I hope this all makes some sense to you. Thank you both. Eve. Not my real name.
Well, thank you so much Eve for, for sharing all of that. It's a very vulnerable thing to do. and maybe just writing all that down was in some way helpful. I hope it was. It's very difficult as therapists to share our opinions, if that's the right word, because we don't really have them. I know that sounds really petty. But even if Eve was one of our clients, we still wouldn't have the full picture because we've only got Eve's perspective.
We don't have his, and I think that's where couple's counseling can come in. But I can imagine what friends would say if she sat round a table in a pub and said all of that. Out of default I think friends, who weren't therapists, would just say, This is a toxic relationship. You need to leave him. he's not good for you. And as therapists, this is a very, I dunno about you Fiona, but this is an extremely familiar story.
I've heard this over the years time and time and time and time again, and will do moving forwards again and again and again. The answer isn't to leave a happy relationship. It's to make that relationship happier. You give it your best, and if after a while of doing your best it hasn't changed, then well at least you know you've tried.
Well, I, I'd like to challenge you a little bit because you said the answer is to not leave. It might be. Yeah. But it is a very, it's so, so tricky. You know, the, not having an opinion is sort of a rule that we have, but we are human beings.
Hmm.
so yeah, it would be that it might be better. Or maybe even probably better. But even though it was a long question from Eve, which was great to receive, we've still only got that's a snapshot. That's what she wrote then. And we don't know, do not know where the emphasis is. Is the emphasis more on the He is a good man. We get on really well. We love each other. We have a laugh. Is that the dominant part of the reality? Or is that the small part and the coercive control is the big part.
We don't know.
When that message came in, was an email rather than from the form on the webpage. It was an email. So the subject was, I think something like, am I in an abusive relationship? And I saw the, title. I'm like, oh, yikes, this isn't gonna be pleasant reading. But I went onto the Women's Aid webpage. they have a form on there it asks a series of questions and it says even if you tick just one of these boxes, there's a chance you're in an abusive relationship.
Well, the questions they asked, not that all relationships are gonna be ticking at least one of them, but a lot of relationships would tick one of them. And yet Women's Aid would say this is an abusive relationship. That doesn't necessarily mean, as we've said, that things have to come to an end. I doubt, maybe naively, that Eve's husband believes he's being abusive in any way, shape, or form. I think people do what they do for reasons that feel right to them.
And that's why I think everybody needs to see a therapist. Everybody. And talk all these things through when they're young so that it doesn't turn into behaviors like this. Or if it does that, they can be challenged on it by, in this case, by Eve to say, Hey, hon, I don't like it when you do that. And it not be taken as criticism. Maybe it's better off to say when you do that, it makes me feel like this.
You know, when you don't give me enough money and you mention those things, it makes me feel insignificant. Small. Like I'm a lodger in my own house and I know you don't mean that. That's not what you woke up today wanting to do to me, hubby. But that is how I feel and I'd like to talk about that. And it not be a criticism. If somebody's hypersensitive to criticism, that's all they're gonna feel.
I was very struck by that question. Would couples counseling help? He doesn't like to be criticized. The idea that going for therapy is a criticism is worrying well, generally, I mean, I, don't like the idea for anybody that they would think that going for therapy means there's something wrong with them. But also, in this particular scenario, this is not a criticism of him as a person. It's to help their relationship. But would he, would he take that? And that's, that's the thing.
Something, I'm sure you've heard it a lot as I have of one party in a couple recognizing that couples therapy would be useful, and the other one just saying No. And that's, that's very, very common.
I, I think three times this week bizarrely, maybe it's the time of year, you know. Everybody's spending time with their family.
after Christmas, we got an awful lot of it after or during lockdown.
Yeah.
So just, just to point out at this point neither of us are qualified couples therapists or family therapists. And that made me think also when I was looking at this question, thinking, well, if Eve, or somebody like Eve, asked for individual therapy then that would be okay. But it's only going to be part of the answer. But they wouldn't necessarily have to go to couples.
They could go, both go individually, but then's the question of family therapy, which in the uk Well, in UKCP, UK Council for Psychotherapy, the particular college that addresses this is called The Couple's, Family and Systemic Therapy College. Systemic really is a word to describe a system of relationships. So a family system, so how everybody relates to each other. So couples and families. The training is often the same. And, you know, family therapy. Is an amazing, amazing setup.
It's, it's, if, if I was starting out as a therapist again now, I think I might go into family therapy.
Wow.
Mm-hmm. ,I've just found it to be everything. I, I've been involved in the UKCP about family and systemic therapy fascinates me. The interrelationship between people and how they work with that.
That fascinates me I must admit. And I mean, I, I think of myself as an integrative psychotherapist nowadays. There was a time when I was just a hypnotherapist and then I trained in, in psychotherapy to add a, add a, an extra handful of strings to my, bow. And now I, I, I don't fit into a particular box. I don't necessarily think of myself as a, Person-centered counselor, for sure.
There's an element of that in what I do, but that's not how I think of myself, nor do I fully think of myself as a psychodynamic therapist, But a majority of what I find in therapy revolves around people's early experiences of life. But it's not just living, it's the relationships they have with other people that either make people feel safe or make people feel unsafe. And if somebody's got those foundations from a young age, they are gonna create defense mechanisms.
That make them oversensitive to criticism and whether it's one-to-one therapy or couples therapy, whatever it is, to learn what makes you tick like that so that you can recognize, Oh, that's why I do that. It just felt right to do it. Well, it did feel right, but it's causing pain for, in this case, for Eve. Oh, okay that makes sense and I'll, I'll work on that. A couple's counsellor will help with that, but it won't be critical. I should hope a therapist isn't critical.
They might be challenging, but hopefully in a, very safe way. Couple's counseling isn't supposed to be accusing somebody of having done something wrong. It's about understanding what makes you, you. And how that fits into your relationship. And I think we spoke about it last year in one of our early sessions about the benefits of having some sort of therapy right at the start of, of relationship or, you know, at the start of a long-term relationship if you know you're going to get married.
Right, like we say, you go and chat to the priest as it used to be or the, the, the, the vicar in the village, you know, and you go and have a little bit of a marriage guidance session about values and respect and all that sort of stuff. And you mentioned, oh yeah, even in the eighties they were doing that because I did You did.
Yes, I did.
I think it's invaluable at any stage in a relationship. And when we started this episode, we said we were going to look at introducing the concept of all these other different therapies that exist for people. And as we've realized, even in one episode, we're scratching the surface, aren't we? Absolutely are.
We are. I think going back to what you said about being an integrative therapist that's, that's how I think of myself as well. I feel person-centered or humanistic. I, I would tend to call it humanistic. For me that is the bedrock. That's what everything else sits on and flows within.
Roger's core values. Yeah. He knew.
Carl Roger's core values of the relationship and how fundamental the relationship is to the possibility of change for the client. Everything then goes on top of that and hypnosis, so the hypnotherapy part. Is the part that really A allows deeper exploration, easier, deeper exploration and also enables change much more effectively. And then within that framework, then anything else can come in. So yes, some psychodynamic elements of looking at the past and the reasons.
We can use TA theories some of which we've covered in previous episodes, such as I think we looked at injunctions and drivers fairly recently, didn't we? That can come into it. We looked at the cycle of awareness from Gestalt that can come into it. I think it is for any, therapists listening and anybody who's looking for a therapist, it's, it's important to recognize that any of these things. So let's take the cycle of awareness from Gestalt.
In order to be a Gestalt therapist In UKCP you train for four years in Gestalt Therapy. So with integrative therapists, we're picking and choosing ideas to fit within our own framework, whereas we're not claiming to be a Gestalt therapist. Where Gestalt therapy's an interesting one. Some people really, that really appeals to them cuz it's very much in the here and now and the relationship between the two and technically In reality, I've had two Gestalt therapists. They do
Ah,
They do look at the past because it's still, you know, Gestalt is still humanistic. So there's still the, the guided by the client element to it. it can be highly challenging Gestalt. But again, You know, each therapist does it their own way. And then there's other types as constructivist, which is that basically that we, we construct the world and make rules around how we perceive everything. And it's based on that.
I don't think they'd like that description of it, but it'll do, I think for now. Existential, we've talked about existentialism in a previous episode. Again, you can train for four years to be an existential therapist and everything will be within that frame. So there are lots of options. So it's, it's what type of therapy and then what the person's trained to do in terms of whether they're trained to work with individuals, couples, families, or even groups.
Are there any therapies that wouldn't be humanistic, that wouldn't have Carl Roger's core conditions as the foundation.
Psychoanalysis. Jungian. They wouldn't.
Oh, no, you're right. Yeah. They wouldn't, would they? The true, true Jungians the, the Freudians.
I suspect though, and I don't know, I just suspect that most people who inhabit the therapy world would still perceive the need to be nonjudgmental, to be congruent, to be empathic. They probably would have those core values because otherwise, I mean the opposite of those things. If you look at the opposite, yes, I'm
and challenge well,
Maybe though maybe.
isn't there a type of therapy which is deliberately challenging, actually quite rude and cruel.
There is a provocative therapy, Frank, somebody I think, I don't know if it's got any weight anywhere, any officialdom. Frank Farrelly?
Can't remember the name who, who set it up, for listeners who aren't familiar with provocative therapy, even I'd forgotten that was what it was called.
It's Frank Farrelly. Gosh, I'm impressed with my mind.
well remembered, well done. You'd sit in front of your therapist and say, these are my problems, and they might say, You're never gonna get better. I mean, you're not even gonna try, are you? What? I don't even know why you're here. Unless I'm exaggerating. It's not quite, is it that bad?
This is Frank Farrelly's Wikipedia page. Provocative therapy is a system of psychotherapy in which having established a foundation of compassion and with the client's permission, the therapist plays the devil's advocate. They will side with the negative half of the client's ambivalence towards his life goals, his relationship work, and the structures within which he lives. So it still is
having foundation of
compassion.
Yeah. To say, I've got this technique, there's this idea, this theory. Do you want to give it a go and see how you feel about it? And there are some clients that would go after a few minutes of it, I don't like this Thanks, Frank, but this isn't for me. This is quite triggering. So yeah, I guess, you know, you do it with their permission. Oh, that makes a lot of sense. But as far as being incongruent, as in not knowing what to expect from another human being. that's very Freudian. That
blank. The,
whatever somebody, yeah. You are a blank slate.
the, the client can't even see the therapist and the therapist doesn't respond. That you would know nothing about the therapist and their life.
hmm.
So that is
And the theory is that,
isn't it?
No, the idea being, which was the origins, you know, we're going back 120 odd years, so, you know, give them a break. The fact that we're still doing elements of it now is questionable to me. But if somebody's got some problems with a relationship that they had when they were growing up, maybe the problem traditionally would be their parents. They bring the way they feel about their parents into therapy and project it onto the therapist.
And the therapist behaves in different ways to the way their parents would and their brain learns, oh, my parents can listen to me. It is gonna be okay. And their brain learns that they're safe. I'm not necessarily sure It's completely stood the test of time, but before that, there was nothing. Before that idea, that concept, strange as it might seem to some people, we were told our personality was set in stone. This is the way you are. You can't change. This is just who you are.
You are God-given. Your personality is written in the stars. You can't change. And we now know that's not true. Of course, people can change otherwise all these therapies wouldn't exist.
So that's congruence. Unconditional positive regard and empathy. I cannot see how you could have therapy without those, but that could be my view of the world. I mean, CBT wouldn't be using them. Be utilizing them as tools cuz after all, C B T can be done. Techno
virtually.
technologically without, with
don't
without a person.
nobody's written this in as a question, but if somebody wrote in and said, is it important that I like my therapist? Depending on what school you're in, is either completely yes, you have to like your therapist. Or it's, no it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter If you don't like your therapist, that's irrelevant.
I think you want to like your therapist, but it's the same as, as therapists. We prefer it if we like our clients, but we don't always. And either way round that gives space to work, I mean, in supervision, you know, it's something that happens quite often that a supervisee will tell me, I don't like this client. and when we, get into what it is that they don't like that's, yeah, fertile ground because it very often is triggering something
Yeah, it's
in the in the therapist. Well, sometimes, I mean, some clients are not likeable.
of course. Well, some humans aren't. But the fact that they're coming to therapy, I can overlook it completely.
It's their behaviors and so that's something that can be a bit challenging as a therapist, but the other way around it's, it's basically the same thing. If the client doesn't like the therapist, what is it in the client that's triggering them? You'd be able to find it.
Yeah, exactly. And I think going back to what Eve wrote. It's likely like we say, that she could, she could tell this exact same story to a group of friends. And because they're not therapists, they just say, you need to leave your husband because you are not happy and he's the reason you're not happy. So you can't be in a relationship with him. And I think Eve needs to know, and anybody going through something similar and believe me, there are plenty of people going through similar stories.
This is fixable, for want of a better word. This can get better. Your relationship can grow. I don't know how young Eve is, but it's likely she's got decades and decades and decades and decades of living with him, and she wants to be happy. He needs to learn how to respect her. He can learn, yes, he needs to work on that. And maybe you can teach him Eve, but that is also gonna mean something that crops up a lot in the therapy room. Hello to all my clients listening.
You hear me talk about this a lot .Assertiveness. How to be assertive without being aggressive. And that means emotional regulation for yourself because assertiveness will feel like arrogance at first. If you're not used to it, trying to put your views across when you've never done that before, that's gonna feel so out of character. It's gonna feel like you're being really demanding and for the other party listening to you doing that. She's now being really demanding.
Cause they're not used to you changing. And that's a process that, that all of you have gotta go through. Whether it's a, a system at work, working with your boss and your colleagues and being taken advantage of there, or it's at home with your wife, your spouse, your husband, in this case. It's a journey that you've all gotta go through. But yeah. Eve, you can make some changes. And by the sound of things, you are in a safe relationship he's not gonna throw you out of the house or hit you.
I hope. It certainly doesn't sound like it. She's made it quite clear that he's one of the good ones. He's just got some, strange ways showing his love. Which is not unusual, but all this is doable both with individual therapy for both of you or just for you, Eve. Or couples counseling, family therapy for the two of you. It's all doable, things can get better every week, every month, every year that goes by. It can get gradually better and better and better and better.
And you might look back in 10 years time and go, wow, our relationship is completely different now. But it's been a lot of hard work. Yeah, it will be, but that's okay. It's worth it. You are worth it. You deserve that. That's how I see it.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I always start with, most relationships that I hear about that are struggling is to start from the question of is this worth saving? And I'm pretty sure from what Eve said that she would say yes.
Yeah.
And if it's a yes, then work to save it. If it's a clear no, then it would be a different process. It would be exit strategies. But most clients who come for therapy say Yes.
Yeah,
Cuz otherwise they would just, they would just do it. I mean, that's that's difficult in itself. How to do divorce well. And you know, that's, that's possible, but we don't start from that premise. Whereas, yeah, if Eve was to chat to a group of friends at the pub, that's probably what they would say. That's what most people, not everybody, but most people would say. And I'd also be interested to hear what, again, you know, if we had, if it was a live thing, we'd get people's responses.
But what are people thinking is behind the husband's behavior. And I think the more that Eve can understand why he's doing this the stronger her position will be.
Yeah. And not being big-headed, cuz that's, that's, that's not what I mean, but just listening to these podcast episodes over the last 12 months that we've been doing them is gonna help with that. It really is. Working out what makes people tick. Of course that's valuable. Absolutely invaluable. It's wonderful. And if that's the least you're doing, you're still doing more than 99% of the population at improving your relationship. So well done. So thanks for listening.
You're doing the right thing,
Thank you, Eve.
Right. We'd better love 'em and leave 'em again. Because time's ticked on yet again,
Funny how time
It keeps doing it time. Yes. Like we always say, you know where we are, send us a message and whether it's an email through, I'm not sure how Eve got my email address actually. it's on my website somewhere. Maybe she signed up to my newsletter or something. I do have a newsletter, not that I put any news on it. I just send a little Monday motivational thing and give you some free uh, hypnotherapy, relaxation recordings, and some extra podcast episodes. Hey, subscribe to my newsletter.
That sounds great send us an email or fill in the form that's linked in the show notes and give us some topic ideas, give us some feedback and rate and review us on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast if you want to. That's always a good thing. Cause people get to know, Hey, that's worth listening to. I think I'll listen. And then we make the world a better place. So you do that and I'm off to put the kettle on. See you next time.
Bye.