And hello to you. Another week, another episode, this is the Therapy Natters podcast, where two psychotherapists get together around their microphones and natter about something they think might be potentially useful to know more about. I'm Richard Nicholls with two Ls. And with me is Fiona Biddle with two Ds. Hello, Fiona.
And only one, one L. Oh, that's a jolly good que I have actually been working jolly hard this week, which is not that usual these days. I've been working on an external moderator's report.
Ooh.
It was good fun. It was great. I really enjoyed myself.
oh,
I I've said this before, I'm sure, that I enjoy doing things that a lot of people don't enjoy doing, but I got this and it was the task I was given on Tuesday and it will be finished by the end of today. I did not delay.
Good stuff. So on one of my Patreon episodes the other week, I did an episode which was talking about motivation and procrastination and perfectionism and things like that. And patron, Nicole left a comment and thought it'd be something to follow upon on here. She said, thanks for this. Richard procrastination is something I've always struggled with and would love to hear some tips on managing my time and juggling all the balls I have in the air. Nicole. Thank you for listening, Nicole.
Thank you for giving us a, a podcast topic for the Therapy Natters show too, because We don't know what we like doing until we do it. And if we like lots of things, then we're gonna get lots of balls to be juggling. And how do we know which one to prioritize? Cause if we're not careful, we end up just doing a little bit of everything, but achieving nothing. And I know I've been guilty of that for 46 years nearly. Well, let's say 40 but certainly for 40 years that's been the story of my life.
I bet you were in the first six years of your life as well.
I expect so. Yeah, if I just go to my Safari browser page, how many? Oh, actually there's not very many tabs open today. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21. There's only 21 tabs open today because of all the things I started doing and then went, oh, that reminds me, I'll look at that. And oh that reminds me, I'll look at that.
I've got 11. And I thought that was a lot. I keep it about that. Each one needs to be about that two centimeters across any more than that. And I start thinking, no, I can close that one, but quite a few of those have been open for a couple of weeks and I haven't gone back to them, but I don't want to close them down in case I lose it. And of course I always have wordle open. That's that's the first tab it's there permanently.
Oh, I've got many different devices with different tabs. I've got like seven tabs open on my iPad for puzzles and comic books and then, and theater scripts. And then another one on my computer here with just therapy stuff. There's probably a load kicking around in the background if I was to move some windows around because we live in a busy world and we are constantly being pulled from one thing to another.
We're not living off the fat of the land anymore, where we know what we've gotta do, because it's time to pull out the potatoes and we know what we're gonna do tomorrow. Cause it's time to pull out more potatoes or plant more
don't pull out the potatoes you are in a bit of trouble.
Yeah. You go hungry and your belly says gonna get those potatoes. We don't live in that world anymore. But I think our body and brain still thinks we do. And if something isn't life or death important. It just gets put to one side. I think if we're not careful
Well, it can do, I think there's different personality traits in it. I would like to say that procrastination, I don't think is only for people who have loads of things to do. Some people will procrastinate even if they don't have a complicated life. But that could be for different reasons that the sort of procrastination I think you are talking about is the can't decide what to do and flitting from one to another.
And so not completing, but there's also the perfectionist type, which you mentioned when you said about your Patreon episode, the people who will be not starting something or not getting on with something because they know at some level that it's not going to be, in their minds, good enough. Or even just not finishing it because it's not perfect. I, I know I've said this to students many a time. There comes a time when you have to stop fiddling with an essay. You could carry on fiddling with it.
You could make it better. You could add another reference. You could fix that bit of grammar that you hadn't noticed until the fifth time round. I was in a meeting yesterday and there was some terms of reference that we were looking at. We've looked at these in the last four meetings, and this is about nine people in the meeting. And it was only yesterday that I noticed that one word was just the wrong word. And so, you know, things just aren't perfect.
yeah,
We could easily have missed that, that could have gone to the board of trustees. They probably wouldn't have noticed, and it would've been out there. And probably nobody would've noticed until the next time it was just one of those things that just happened to hit me then where it hadn't previous meetings. So things are never, ever perfect. So Van Gogh when he was painting his sunflowers, he could have made it better. Shakespeare when he was writing Hamlet could have made it better.
Actually in that context by cutting it down a bit, but I do like Hamlet, but it doesn't half go on.
Yeah.
it's one of the few plays I've gone to that starts early, cuz you can't get it in otherwise before the buses finish, but no, everything can be made better, pretty much everything. So perfectionism is a reason for procrastination mustn't be discounted. Yeah.
And, and desire, you know, sometimes we do have to ask. Whose idea is it that you do this task that you're putting off? Cause if it's not actually you, if it's not something you want to do, then that needs addressing. And I know, oh, you're not gonna like this. Oh, I'll tell you this.
Who's the you, me or the audience?
You
Oh, okay.
No, you will. This'll be fine. Yeah. It's absolutely fine. Before I was a psychotherapist or my term, I'm a hypno psychotherapist, cuz I, I was a, I was a hypnotherapist for many, many years. And then with some extra training upgraded my qualification. If you wanna call it upgraded, did some extra work and became a hypno psychotherapist to work as, as a psychotherapist.
And the reason I did the course was because the college that was doing it was, was one that you recently took over Fiona and you went, we're gonna be doing this. And you said to quite a few people who wants to come on board and, and do this extra qualification, you can be, you'll be a UKCP psychotherapist at the end of it. I'm like, yeah, whatever sounds like fun. And I just jumped into it with, yeah, this sounds like fun.
I was interested, very interested in the subject matter, cuz it's about psychotherapy. It's about psychology and people and theories about what makes us tick. It's the stuff that fascinates me and I'm really interested in the learning, but it took me years to finish the course years longer than it should have done because yeah. I'll just get putting off that essay. Yeah. I'll just keep putting off that dissertation.
Yeah. I'll put those, those, that ethics thing needs to get I'll do it eventually. And the reason was I wanted the learning, but I wasn't interested in the qualification. It didn't matter to me that I was just a hypnotherapist
I did know that before. But it's also, it's also true of me, which you might not realize, because I didn't see the point in getting it until I did take over the college, in which case I sort of had to have it. So I only finished the last few bits and pieces then. So we are in pretty much the same boat. It was just sort of slightly different reasons there in the end. But it's, it's, it's quite a common thing that people want the learning,
yeah
to
to learned prove
to
that
the the proving of it.
And maybe that's just an academia chip that I've had on my shoulder about how to structure essays. You see, I didn't go to university and I didn't even get halfway. Well, I got halfway through my A levels before I had to drop out because I just couldn't do it. I just didn't feel smart enough. And at the time I wasn't, and there's lots of reasons why that was maybe the case. Maybe self-esteem maybe just sort of.
I dunno was from a very working class area, but I carried that idea of, I dunno how to write essays for years. It's still with me now more than likely, although I doing enjoy essays now. What I find difficult about essays nowadays is what to leave out. I can ramble and I can waffle on. I can put loads of stuff. I can be really passionate about a topic, but you've gone over the word count here, Richard, if you're not careful, that's
it's actually a very different task from when you were doing them. Well obviously the level of a level standard to a master's degree level standard is completely different animal, but the, the process is so different because of the source material. But you know you can do them because you've done them and they've passed quite well as seem to recall. I seem to recall you've got reasonable marks.
Yeah, I did. I did, but, and here's the thing with the wrong mindset. Even with reasonable marks, you can have that attitude of ooh I fooled them as well. And that needs to be challenged with people and, that idea of, well, if I do well, it's, it was an accident if I do poorly. Oh, it's because I'm poor. That needs to be challenged in people. And I know for a fact that that I'm certainly not the only one that has gone through that experience.
I hear those stories from clients all the time and it does get in people's way. It does lead to procrastination because if there is a kitchen floor to mop, or what did I do the other day when I should have been doing something else, I bleached the kitchen sink. You know, it could have waited. But it's a Belfast sink and it's white and it's old and stained. It's like, well, I did it last year about the same time last year, so, oh, I'll give it another good bleach.
I, I, don't know about you, Richard, but sometimes I find the only time that things like floors get mopped is when there's something else that I don't want to do more than that. So in that context, procrastination can be quite a good thing because it gets other things done.
It's called productive procrastination.
We shouldn't always knock procrastination. It can just be quite fun. Anyway, I was just, was talking to somebody. I will not name them because they were talking about procrastinating at work. So I won't name them, but just before this, this episode, and it was. Well, I just found this when I was procrastinating at work and it's coming up to the bank holiday. So I just thought, oh, well, it's a different sort of vibe this Friday. So, you know, that's no harm, no foul is it, it doesn't matter.
This person is not a surgeon. You know, they're not putting off somebody's heart operation or anything serious office work. So
Like, I always say nothing's a problem unless it causes problems and even procrastination it's not a problem unless it causes problems. But it can lead onto some narratives. A story that we tell ourselves that if we're not careful, that says I'm not very good. Am I, when I've got many balls in the air?
I was thinking? One, one very typical form of procrastination is the academic work. So at school or university, when you've got a deadline. And, you know, you have to hand in this essay on Friday and on Thursday you still haven't started it. So stay up all Thursday night so that you can hand it in on Friday. I suspect most people listening have had some experience of that and some people stick with it because they quite enjoy the buzz.
and I was that person to a degree, but then I did an IT degree and it doesn't work when you're writing the computer program because you have to test it and then fix what didn't work and then test it and fix what, so you cannot possibly leave it until the last minute, because it's a cyclical process. And so I learned from that, not to put things off until the last minute, that was quite a useful learning.
I think we can be motivated through pain and fear and anxiety. Definitely. But for some. Like myself, and this is what I was talking about the other week on my Patreon episode. When I get overwhelmed, I'm not very productive. So if I do leave everything to the last minute too close to the last minute, then my brain just freezes. And I'm, I'm banging my head against the table, especially with my podcast stuff. Cuz it's the it's very creative.
It's not, it's not two people having a Natter like this one is my other podcast is a bit it's constructed a bit more. Well, constructed, know, we don't just
is, this has about five minutes prep. If that I'm probably exaggerating,
Yeah. Which is nice.
it is nice.
it. But my other one, it it's, it's a lot, it, I look at a lot of research and so on. And so if I'm not in the right head space, yeah. I'm banging my head against the table and my episodes come out on a Monday morning, 6:00 AM. I have to make sure that they're ready for
00 AM. It was a long time ago when I used to do them early. I used to get up early on a Monday morning and do them, and, and that was horrible. Absolutely horrible. Having to do that. I mean, it would've all been prepared on the Friday just needed to record it and you learn, well, I learned what doesn't work and leaving things to the last minute is just too painful for me. It doesn't make me particularly creative. Doesn't motivate me. What motivates me is knowing this is gonna be okay.
And I can only do that if I've planned. If I need to construct something that's around 2000 words, I'm not gonna just sit down on a Monday
00 AM or, or the last thing on a Friday afternoon and go, right. This is doesn't need to be out until Monday, 2000 words, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, I need to make sure that on a Monday I've at least done, you know, a couple of hundred just to get the structure of what the episode's gonna be around and then build upon it. So the next day it's been expanded into more and the next day it's expanded into more. There has to be those steps for me, that's what works for me.
And without that, without that structure, all I've got is panic. And of course you can't be creative when you're panicking.
Should we have a look at a couple of time management techniques then
Yes, please. I might need it for next week.
Because of course the, the question that follows is how do I stop procrastinating? The first step is recognize that that's what you're doing. And I'm diverting away from what I just said about time management. But I did hear a, a nice phrase once and I can't remember who said it. I'm sorry, but it's the only thing you should procrastinate is your procrastination.
Ooh. that's that's paradox. That's Are you?
procrastinate. Procrastinating. I'm going to procrastinate tomorrow. Not today. But there's a time management technique called four Ds.
mm-hmm
Which is when you've got something to do. Let's say it's write an essay. You either do it. You delay doing it, you delegate it or you drop it. Now. If this is an essay that you're doing for an A level, for example, then dropping it and deciding not to do, it's probably not gonna do you an awful lot of good. Delegating it will get you into an awful lot of trouble. So really on that score, you end up with two choices, you do it, or you delay doing it.
And if you recognize that this is about making the unconscious conscious, really isn't it, it's about thinking, when do I want to do this? I'm going to do it. So wouldn't it actually be better if I just did it, but then, well, maybe I'm not going to just do it today. I could just do it tomorrow, but know what you're going to do, make a decision and then stick to it.
Whilst we're talking about essays, I think one of the keys to me is to make the process of writing an essay or any sort of academic work, as pleasurable as it can be. So make yourself a cup of tea, put nice comfy slippers on, make yourself nice and warm and put some nice music on in the background. If that works for you. If it doesn't, it doesn't, whatever works is absolutely fine, but just make it a nice environment. And that reminds me then of the Pomodoro technique.
I've seen it written down on, you know, life coaching skills and things like that. But I, I'm not a life coach. That's not what I do. So I've never really dug into it.
It's a lot more complicated than I'm going to explain. And there's a lot to, there's a lot more to it, but it's based on the idea of literally setting yourself a chunk of time to work on something and then having a little break and then another chunk of time and then a little break. And the name Pomodoro comes from those tomato shaped kitchen timers that used to get back in the eighties. You probably still get them.
It looks like a tomato with the top half you turn it and set it to a particular time. And after that time it starts ringing
There's probably an App for that now.
well, you've got a timer on your phone.
Yeah. Timer. Yeah. Yeah.
so yes, it's a bit of a pity really, cuz they're quite nice things. Those, not that I ever had, one. I did have kitchen timers, but they never seemed to work, but I'd use my phone timer all the time, but you don't need a tomato timer. They say that the optimum time for doing a task is 25 minutes and then have between two and five minutes off. And after every several, I can't remember exactly how many chunks of that have a longer break, but I think it's, it, it feels about right.
But I think it's important. Everybody does what they feel is right for them. So yeah, test it out. See, but if you are going into again, think of writing an essay, if you start and think, oh, it's nine o'clock I'm not gonna have lunch till one. So I've got four hours that could feel quite nice, lots of time, but it also could feel quite overwhelming and scary. So breaking it down and give your brain a little break every 25 minutes or so that's the Pomodoro technique.
I think I, I tend to do that, anyway. Certainly if I look in my diary, I've got, you know, I've got all my clients' names and things, all their initials anyway, but I've, I have to schedule, I'll tell you, well, little bit of self-disclosure let's have a look at what it says for this week.
So I've got clients and then it's got Therapy Natters post production and it's there for a couple of hours and then there's video prep for the 26th and then there's a client and then there's Therapy Natters, post-production continued. And then there's a client and, and I have to put those in and that's there on Monday and then Wednesday prep for conference presentation, cuz I'm doing a, a presentation for the BACP in, in October. I need to prep for that.
So it's in the diary interview with RJ, which somebody else's podcast that was interviewed. Video record for the, for the 2nd of September, it's there. I have to put it in if I just, if in my, if I keep it in my mind and go, well, I know I've got those things to do. They're just part of my job now. So I'll just do them whenever they don't get done or no, they do. That's a lie. They do get done, but it gets done in a very stressful environment.
It comes from a place of panic that I'm running outta time, rather than a place. Oh, this is fine. It's scheduled. That's when I'm doing it, it'll be fine. It comes from a negative place. If I don't put it in the diary.
Certainly when I was running the college, it doesn't apply so much now. Cause I don't have so many different things to do. When I was running the college, I had to have everything that I was needed to do written down, cuz keeping everything in my head was just too much. But when it's on a piece of paper, I felt safe. I've got my list and there's a couple of ways of doing those sorts of lists.
And one is along the lines of what you are saying, although it's a sort of specific way called time boxing.
mm-hmm
Which is where you, you get a, a calendar or a diary or whatever, and you box out the time that is sort of what you're doing, but you didn't realize, I think that you were doing something with a name to it. If you put time boxing into Google, you'll see there's all sorts of templates for it. and you don't have to do it in a diary. You can, and I have done this myself. I've done it with just a spreadsheet you can create a week easily and just sort of time box.
Maybe first thing in the morning, you've got meditation and then you've got this block of time is for, in our world for clients and then you've got lunch and then you've got this bits for admin, and then you've got this bits for going to the gym or for a walk. And then you've got this bit for clients. Etcetera. So you box off the different parts of your calendar.
I guess this is about planning and preparation and expectations. A couple of weeks ago, I had to write, and this is ridiculous that somebody should have to do this. And I know, but it makes sense to me. I had to write in my, in my calendar. Shower. I had to put in to have a shower because if I didn't make time for it, I would have one, but I wouldn't have lunch.
So if I didn't put the shower in, it was just because I was having to drive somewhere early and I knew I wouldn't have a shower in the morning, so I knew I'd end up having a shower in the, in the late morning instead after a client, if I didn't remind myself after that client to go and have a shower, I'd end up doing it on the lunch break and then not having a lunch break. Because I'd prioritize cleanliness over food, which is odd because, well, I can just eat any old time.
There's a box, you know, there's a fruit bowl of bananas there. I can Snaffle that in between clients, but what about the break? The lunch break isn't about lunch it's not only about having lunch. It's about being productive by taking a break and, and we, we are more productive when we break like the, the Pomodoro technique has come outta some research. I'm sure there's a lot of it anecdotal, but there, there must have done something.
Yeah, I think just reading up on it earlier. Yeah, they tested out lots of different things before they came to the 25 minutes. I remember somebody I knew years ago who was in a client centered role, but not a therapist role . And was constantly going from one client to the next client to the next client to the next client and ended up being exhausted. She created a client called Mrs. Potter. And she arranged appointments with Mrs. Potter a couple of times a week
To Potter.
to just Potter. So when it was, when she, oh, next client's Mrs. Potter, she could just Potter. That was a nice, nice one. I've
Yeah. I remember my therapist who uses an old fashioned diary that you write in which has always freaked me out, especially when a friend of ours got his briefcase stolen once and all of his diary were gone and he had to sit in his office for about three months, unable to take on clients, cuz he didn't know who was gonna turn up. And when I was like, oh, I'm gonna try to have a backup system, but she keeps everything to her, he's in his paper format as.
But she puts everything like I do, I guess in her diary, including, you know, play drums, have a break and she uses a different color pen. She uses a green sparkly pen. So if she's feeling overwhelmed or she's feeling that she's, you know, burning out, if she looks in the previous week, she can maybe see there's hardly any green sparkly pen time in the previous week. I need to make sure I put some green sparkly pen stuff in this week. I'm like,
That's really good. I love, I love a paper diary, but really upset when appointments change.
Ugh.
Cause it makes it a mess. And I don't like that in a lovely, I mean, I, I'm not a terribly neat person. I've looked around this room. I'm not a terribly neat person, but when you've got something as lovely as a, as a beautiful diary, I don't want to mess it up.
yeah. And people do reschedule and move things all the time.
And I put them into the wrong place. Yes, so no electronic diaries, but you can still use colors in your electronic diaries. So that's, that might be an idea. Put green sparkly
go.
in your, electronic diary.
Yeah That's a good idea.
I have just one other time management thing to mention
I wanna hear all about it, Fiona.
a guy called David Allen has put together. It was a long time ago that I first saw as it was on cassette.
Wow.
Wow. I only threw it out quite recently, but I did transfer it first. It's called getting things done fast it's a complete system. I think there were probably. Eight or 12 tapes, something like that, maybe 10 it's a complete system, but one of the things that I remember and I still do when I'm in sort of project mode, is that the idea is that everything in your life, if you've got a busy life is, is a project.
So for you Richard, in that, the diary that you just read out, you'd have clients project. Your podcast project. Therapy, Natters project. B A C P talk project. Then you'd have showering a project, maybe not showering, but looking after yourself would be a project. Shopping would be a project doing the gardening. Might be a project. I dunno whether you've got a garden or if you do it, if you do but everything in your life is a project.
So anything that you that's, that's something that you are doing currently. Booking a holiday would be a project. And for all these projects, you always have defined your next task. Your next step on the project. So, if you are booking a holiday, and they've just changed one of the flights so that I have literally one minute to change planes.
Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.
I, I think that's a little bit tight and they're playing. Silly some things at the moment by saying, oh, by the time it comes around, there'll, there'll be other flights you can book onto. I, I want to book onto it now. So I sent us an email earlier saying I want my money back. That was my next task. My task now is wait, nothing else I can do. So my task is wait, so your BACP. I dunno where you are up to on your prep, but you'll know. Or you could write down what your next task is.
It might be prepare a PowerPoint slides outline or fill in the PowerPoint slides or think about what earth I'm going to say. I dunno where you are,
Oh, I've got, I've I've got a list of five things. I wanna talk about
so what's so, okay, so what's your next step
Well I've gotta pad. Yeah, I've gotta expand on each one.
so expand on
at the intro and
Yeah. So
would be
is expand
one.
one. So on all your projects. So if it's showering, it's decide when to have my next shower and then the next task will be, have the shower some projects aren't that complicated. But there's always just know what your next step is on your project. If you've got a busy life, it can be very, very effective. So David Allen Getting Things Done Fast and you can still
read that. Was it also a book?
The cert, there was a book with the tapes and there certainly is a website. So you'll still be able to find it.
I might have procrastinated in the past and, and, and explored that when I should have been doing something else, ironically, I'm working on I'm working on it. One thing we can't delay, cuz it is set that needs to be done is the times that we finish off these episodes, Fiona. Cause we wanna try and keep these as close to half an hour as we can. So we can't stand here and sit here. Nattering forever. We can natter for a bit, but we'll have to go away and come back and we will.
we'll be back next week fact
Therapy, Natters on our Therapy natters project. Our next task. We'll be look out for another question.
Yes. So if you have something you'd like to know more about in your mind, ask away, there's a form. On my website and the link to it in the show notes, go and fill it in, send us a message that says, thanks very much for what you've done so far. I'm really interested in this and tell us what the, this is. And at least then we know that we're talking about the right stuff. Otherwise we'll just turn the mics on and just natter which is fine.
Um, We'll have plenty of content, but if we can make it as tailor made and as bespoke for you, dear listener, then we, then we will. You go and do that. And I'm gonna go and have a shower, so I'll love you and leave you Take care
Okay bye everybody.