Hey, hey, Hey, you beauties. It's Therapy Natters time, the Mental Health and maybe Personal Development Podcast, brought to you by my good self Richard Nicholls, and fellow good self psychotherapist, Fiona Biddle. Welcome to another episode. Here we go. What episode are we up to? Episode 58, Fiona.
Goodness.
this for ages.
I know. I was just messaging somebody the other day, somebody that we're hoping will join us for one of our natters in the future. And this person didn't know about our podcast and they said, I vaguely heard that you might be doing that. And I said, yeah, we're on episode 50 something. And they, oh, okay. But that's okay.
Oh
They've lots of catching up to do.
Absolutely, but when somebody says whether it's a, I don't mind if it's a client and I, I don't mind if it's a friend either. If somebody says, oh, I've never listened to any of your podcasts. I don't mind. Yeah, I'm not
No,
Dawn, my wife has literally never chosen to listen to a single episode of my podcast, even though I've been doing it for 13 years, I made her listen to the very first episode that I made public, just to ask her what she thought before I pushed the button to go live. That was in the car on the way to take Billy to the gymnastics class back when he was about five, and he's 18 now. That's how long ago it's been since I started doing this, and she didn't really offer any thoughts on it.
Just went, it's your thing. Yeah, whatever, and just let me get on with it. And I casually mention that sometimes to friends that, you know, because I do have some friends that do listen. Hello, if you're listening, friend of mine. And it'll come up in a conversation that no, Dawn's never listened to a single one. And she'll say things like, well, why would I want to, I have no need to. I'm not gonna waste my time on something that I don't need to do. And I totally get that 100%.
And I think it's quite good that she can, she can have her boundaries, I suppose. That says that's your thing. I'm not gonna ask you to join me on a 10 k run cuz that's my thing. You do your thing. I do my thing. And it doesn't mean anything problematic cuz it doesn't cause a problem. Cause it doesn't mean that she's, upset with me or that she doesn't love me, I'm not gonna get angry at her for not meeting my expectations if I had the wrong expectations.
Yeah, no, I mean my, my kids, and when I say my kids, I'm including the wives or one wife and one nearly wife of my sons. So they're my kids, the four of them. They've all listened to a bit and say it's great, and then they don't listen to anymore. But that's, that's absolutely fine. And to be honest if I was one of our colleagues, I probably wouldn't listen because I rarely listen to podcasts anyway I'm listening to the serial podcast.
yeah.
I've probably been listening to that. Well, I definitely have been listening to that for well over a year, and I'm still only in series three that shows you how much time I spend listening to podcasts. So these things are not for everybody and that's, that's absolutely fine.
it is because we all have different values and different ways of wanting to spend our time. And I think that is the, the core of, I guess, what it means to try and live a more contented life is to recognize that we are all individual, that there are, there are elements of of group stuff that makes us feel quite, quite good and quite safe and connected and so on. But we are all very, very different.
Absolutely, and I, sometimes find that I'm spending a lot of time embroidering, for example, and then there's a part of me that says, well, it would be much better if I was studying my bridge lessons in this time, but for some reason I prioritize the doing the embroidery. And then that takes me back to the idea of compartmentalization, of just basically doing the thing that you're doing at the time and doing it correctly.
And so I can do my embroidery and watch a film at the same time, for example, whereas a hundred percent of my attention would have to be going on the, the bridge. But, it's always about doing the thing that's appropriate at the time that it's appropriate. And I was talking to somebody the other day who had to do a lot of driving in their work and she said, she, she'd actually quit the job cuz she said, cuz I hate driving.
Oh.
And I found that quite interesting. It wasn't a situation where I could explore in any depth that was really as far as we got, but it led me to remember a time when I did a job that involved a lot of long, long commutes, as in from Exeter to Birmingham, sort of commutes quite regularly. And I made the conscious decision that those were going to be my relaxed times, my chilled times. And if podcasts had been around
hmm.
In those days, cuz we're talking 1990 ish. Then I would've used those to, to chill. And, but then I used cassette tapes and various learning programs on those. But it was very much that for me, and I still have it now to an extent is, is when I'm driving I'm chilled and so nothing bothers me. Cuz you know, if you're in a, if you're in a traffic jam, nothing you can do about it. So, You might as well relax.
That's not easy for a lot of people.
Exactly.
I've, I've gotten to that point myself, age 47, but I'm not sure if, maybe there's been those occasions when I, the only time I've been angry in a car is when I've had the wrong expectations because I've told myself, this is only gonna take me 20 minutes. Now as a therapist who's sort of been in therapy as well, for as long as I've been a therapist, you know, 20 years you, you do a lot of, a lot of self work. I've learned very gently over time to let all that go.
I didn't make a conscious effort to go, I'm not gonna get angry in a car anymore. It just sort of happened by itself as my, I guess my, my unconscious caught up with what my conscious requirements were, which was not to be annoyed or angry about things that you can't control. I've even been stuck in traffic and I've been late for a client. And I know I'm gonna have disappointed somebody and I've rang the receptionist and said, there's, there's an accident in front of me. The road is closed.
I need to go a different direction. I dunno what time I'm gonna get there. There's nothing worse than saying I'm stuck in traffic. I'm gonna be 10 minutes late cuz you don't know. And then 10 minutes go by, you haven't moved and you just got angrier.
Yeah, there can be times of course, when Anger is appropriate in, in, if you, if you've got a real tight deadline, you are, or maybe you are needing to get to the hospital or, or there's something really, really, really urgent. And then it's natural to feel Stressed
yeah. It's what you do it that might cause
you do with it and it could, could, could manifest as anger in that situation. I remember having a client many years ago whose issue was what he described as road rage, but regular, constant. And he was doing long, long drives for work. Not sure if he was a professional driver or if he just had to get between places. Probably the latter. Cuz professional drivers seem generally to be quite chill, don't they? Um, yeah.
I, I'd certainly notice if you are waiting to get out at a junction, it's usually professional drivers who let you
Yeah.
Put that aside. This guy that was his thing, and I can remember then it was Exeter again, but the other way around. So from Loughborough to Exeter was one of his drives, and he was stressed the whole time because he needed to make sure that he got there as soon as he possibly could to the extent that he was speeding.
And I did a little calculation and worked out the difference between i, I ca, I can't remember exactly what it was now, what the speeds that we put into the equation, but basically from being sensible, she says, as a old woman who's a mother sensible to to being reckless, would save him 15 minutes. Or the other way around being reckless, saved him 15 minutes.
But what a cost.
Yes. Uh, At what a cost. But as I recall, we didn't get very far with this that he, he wasn't able to let it go, which is very sad.
hmm. he made a decision at some point that says I've got to get there as soon as possible. And of course, as soon as possible just means putting your foot down constantly.
And as I think about it now, and I ca as I say, it was a very long time ago. I can't remember very much in the, in the detail, but as I think about it now, I think there's an identity level there of I'm the fast driver. I get there as soon as possible. I'm not going to be somebody who stays in the slow lane of the motorway. I mean, we all see those when we go on the motorway. The people who I'm not going in the slow lane. That's for slow
Yeah. Yeah.
whether they're middle lane hoggers or Fast Lane. But it's an identity,
It is. And like I was saying earlier, we are all different. We've all got our different values and our different lives and different experiences, different expectations, different needs, and they, they might change with every moment. uh, my sister lives in Sheffield and it's only an hour and a half up the road really, but I'd been driving for about 20 minutes on my way and she rang to say, oh, Running a bit late. Can you meet us a bit later on? This thing that we're doing is overran.
Um, can, Can, we meet at this time, at this bowling alley or something like that? Went Yeah, yeah, of course. And then realized, wow, I'm gonna be 20 minutes early. I better slow down. I thought if how, how's, and I've looked at the Sat Nav, it said, yep. I'm gonna be one minute early, so I'll slow down. Go into the middle lane. And I did that for about 10 minutes and it didn't really change the sat nav timing at all. I was like, well, I'm, I'm driving pretty, quite slow.
That's why I went into the, the very slow lane. The slow lane. That is the lane. The others are called overtaking lanes. I need to get I, mean, ah. I'm not a hypocrite, but I have had, I have been on three speed awareness courses because I do have a heavy right know once was going to a flipping conference in Leicester because I wanted to get there to see you and I was in the wrong lane and I over and I went a little bit quick. 35 in a 30 uh, another speed awareness course.
Maybe we should have, a discussion about appropriate responsibility. Blaming me.
yeah. He's me pointing at you. Going I was gonna see you. Um,
He was, He was pointing at me.
it's not your fault, but it was because I, no, it was because I wanted to see you. That's what it was. There was you and there was, it wasn't just you. There was all of us. There was. There was cuz all of our friends. there was Sean and, well, it was everybody. I wanted to get there and help with the registration.
So I have had three speed awareness courses, and when I told this this story, The last time I was at a speed awareness course, which coincidentally was run by my old driving instructor from the nineties who's retired from instructing. And he didn't teach me. I had to learn with somebody else in the end cuz he went, I can't teach you anything. Richard you, you, you're too young. I like you, you're a great guy, but you just don't listen. Do you? Oh yeah.
Sorry Jeff. I was young and silly and thought I knew it all, but that's, that's another story. So I told this story at this speed Awareness course about how it didn't matter how slow I go I, I, I just couldn't delay this hour and a half journey by 20 minutes. I managed to add on about five minutes onto the journey, but I was going 65 miles per hour all the way to Sheffield, some of the people on that speed awareness course thought I was a plant.
They thought I was there by the D V L A to try and gee everybody along and be enthusiastic and make everybody learn, which makes
well that's a great, it's a great idea for speed awareness courses, so you should take that on board
Well, as a therapist you, you'd be aware of this, we have to do a lot of C P D events and often it's about reinforcing existing learning. You already know this stuff. You just kind of maybe needed a reminder of, oh yeah, I forgot about that man. Or that theory, or that idea, or that technique, or whatever. And it's nice, but sometimes in an hour and a half of a, a short event or a seminar or something, There might be just 30 seconds of stuff that's useful.
There could be a whole day's event and there might still only be 30 seconds that's useful. But maybe it's just me, but certainly I, I, I wonder if everybody else is the same in my profession. You listen for that little snippet that might be useful. You don't discount the entire day because I already know this stuff. I don't need to be here.
I think maybe I'm a little bit naive there, having once been development director of of an organization and had to follow people up on their C P D and some of them went, I don't need to do any C P D. I've been doing this for years. You can't tell me anything. I'm like, oh dear. Oh dear. So what advice would we give to people that might be struggling with maybe anger issues, maybe road rage, things like that?
Well, I think let's have a look first specifically at Road Rage and and why that is a, a thing. And to me there's an element that you are sitting in your metal and glass box.
Protected, safe,
Protected and yeah, you can see what's going on around you, but you Yeah, you
Disconnected.
yeah, I was gonna say separate, but disconnected, separate. And so when a feeling of anger is evoked from the behavior intentional or usually otherwise of somebody else. There's, it's sort of sort of safe to be angry and to express it, but is it safe? I mean, I suppose in this country, most of the time, It probably is. It's, it's, It's unlikely. I mean, there's not that many instances.
And of course, if you stay in your metal box and don't stop and don't get out and don't engage, then you're safer. But it's, it's not like in the States, for example, where everybody won't let everybody, but people have
The term road rage did start after there was a spate of people being shot out of because of bad driving, people chasing them in their car and then getting out and shooting at them. And that's where the phrase started. I dunno who came up with the term. And here in the UK it's replaced just with dangerous driving. Which is just as, not just as dangerous as pointing a gun at somebody pulling a trigger, but it's still dangerous.
I did see statistic once based on some research that was UK based, where it said that the experience of anger in the car was increased in women compared to men. Women would report higher states of frustration and anger and impatience when driving than men would, but their reactions were different. Men would then drive dangerously tailgate, drive fast There was even in the studies, people talking about almost not deliberately crashing into them.
But deliberately not getting out of their way when it's obvious, this person's gonna crash into me now, aren't they? I'm gonna let them. The men would do that. The women wouldn't. They'd just feel the anger in the car, feel the frustration, and they would tense up and they would gesticulate wildly and they'd hold that
and And and yell a bit.
yeah. And shout, scream.
Yeah. And swear. Yep.
Whereas the men would just drive danger, not just men would also then drive dangerously, but the women wouldn't.
that's interesting.
the women would report the H a higher state of anger than the men would when when they self-reported. The women were angrier, which again surprises me.
So the feeling is stronger for women, but the behavior is More dangerous in the men. I mentioned to the, to the kids that we were gonna be talking about this today and Greg said, Talk about cyclists and so I will cuz I always do what Greg tells me. It's, It's the best course of action. I mean it, yeah, definitely the best
Me too
As the cyclist, he says he cycles to work most of the time. He says at least three times. Drivers have thrown lighters at him, which he's never told me about that before. Cuz he's, he's a big boy now. He doesn't report to mummy. But I was surpri, I didn't know that was a thing. I would imagine that Greg is a respectful and competent cyclist. Pretty damn sure he is. So that to me is then, I mean, I know that listeners don't know him or anything.
They might think, well, bloody cyclists, but that's the, the, there is that perception amongst a certain sector of drivers that cyclists are a nuisance. But to actually take it to the the extent of throwing a lighter.
I'm interested in impulse control there because I know correlation does not imply causation, but the reason they've got lighters is because they smoke, which is not a common thing nowadays. 20 years ago when I became a, or 20 odd years ago, when I became a hypnotherapist, there were so many smokers. I'd see two or three a week. I see a smoker once a year now.
It was our bread and butter
Oh yeah, absolutely. I remember coming to you in sup for supervision sessions going, huh? Nothing but a week's worth of smokers, again. Getting a bit bored of these. I think I need to do more training and expand my comfort zone a bit because it was so popular. Everybody's quit. So those that haven't.
There's a chance that they might have some impulse control issues, or there might be other stuff going on underneath, which then fuels this trait in them that, yeah, I, I do get angry because they're not throwing cuddly toys that were on the dashboard at the cyclist. They're throwing a lighter, and that's quite specific.
Yeah. it's, It's odd
and I know controlling your impulses is not the be all and end all, but I think it would be good to start there because then that leaks over into every other area of your life. If you can learn how to lengthen that space, that gap between the urge to do something and the behavior of doing it, the longer you can make that gap, the more time you've got to take a few deep breaths and calm down. A bit like how there's this push on Twitter to delay the sending of a tweet now.
And I, it's gonna be implemented I think, or we might have to pay extra for it, which I might have to flipping do, cause I want some longer than two minute 20 videos. But that's another story. But it gives you 20 seconds after you've composed a tweet and click send to go I've changed my. After you've looked at what you've written and gone, ah, what am I doing? Stop. I don't mean to send that.
the idea is it's been implemented in case you've got a spelling mistake in it, but I think it's gonna have a nice effect that if that's the norm, if that's integrated across the platform. The opportunity to not be vile to somebody, which is the reason why Twitter is, is a very much a Marmite social media platform. You love it or you hate it. It's either a rat's nest or it's a place of community, or both at the same time. The uh, Juxtaposition between the two is bizarre.
I like Twitter because you can add people into lists and you, you can follow some nice people and they'll only post nice things, but it doesn't stop people. Whenever you mention anything about mental health awareness, quoting me and going, this guy doesn't speak for me, who does he think he is? Really, Really?
There is a, a strong parallel, I would say between the idea of being in your, in your car, in your metal and glass box and being able to scream and shout and swear, which you probably wouldn't do if you were a pedestrian in the street and somebody bumped into you or something. Most people wouldn't do it there. They might do it in the car. And it's similar with social media that you're separate, disconnected, and so it has an element of feeling safe to express in, in that context.
I, I really like that idea. I hadn't heard about it. The, that there was going to be a, a specific delay. And I know for myself, there's, there've been times when I've typed something and then thought, no, I won't send that.
And. I, I feel that that's a really important impulse control to have and certainly it would be never comment on, there's a few people in my life, the, I would never comment on anything that they've ever written, even though the, the desire to do so might be strong is, is to, to not take that action because you need to recognize the, the damage that can do to yourself as well as to the other
Yes. I think that gets forgotten. People don't notice that, do they? They think that in their vitriol, their anger, their poison, that they're going to make somebody feel bad and that's gonna make them feel good? No. We tend to find that we hold onto that, that uncomfortable feeling ourselves. It spoils our day if we're angry at somebody else. It's not the old phrase of drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. That rings true to me a lot. Nobody should live rent free in my head.
Sorry, if you're gonna live in my head, you need to pay me for that.
And then I was thinking about wherever you go these days, there'll be a sign up. There was one in a chemist I went to yesterday that said, abuse is not part of my role description. And I thought You grammar isn't correct there, but nevermind. We understand. We understand what you're saying. And that's quite
And there's a story there some, there's a reason why that was put there.
yes. But then what percentage of people might be abusive towards the person behind the co counter in a chemist, not a very high percentage of people, but then you think, what percentage of people would feel that it was okay to be abusive on Twitter to a company that's let them down?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I had a thing with Buying a car seat for my little Ukrainian boy last year where the company's, the whole service was absolutely poor and basically they took an order for a car seat when they didn't have one. Even though it was sort of ordering it for next day delivery and I was angry, but I still managed. It wasn't that easy.
I still managed to be quite respectful in my communication with them is sort of, I know it's not your fault, whoever it was that I was messaging et cetera, but you know, it still was a bit of a challenge because I was furious. And you have, you do have that feeling of disconnect, which makes it okay.
I do remember, and I, I don't think this was a, a proper study. Maybe it was just anecdotal, but somebody was looking at the effects of a bar in a pub between the server and the customer. Having that bar between them, that little bit of distance made it so that it almost dehumanized the person doing the job. the customer was likely to be angry or impatient,
Do Do you mean a bar as in just the bar
itself. Just the,
Not an extra bar. Just
just the bar that you'd lean on and put your pint on. But when, if some, if the, if the customer was angry, but then. The server was to come round the bar so that they were in punching distance. I suppose maybe people would calm down. It wouldn't make them angry. Right now I can see you. Now you're in my face. Now I can hit you. It humanized them. It meant that there wasn't that disconnect that says, oh, you're just, you're just a server there doing your, doing your job.
They come round and then they're a human, and then it was easier for them to say. I am sorry that we don't have any Jack Daniels or whatever it is. Come back next week, whatever. Again, I don't think this was, this was a big study. I think it was just a se anecdotal experiences that bar staff were having, but it was referenced in some something psychological that I was, I was absorbing because these are the people that were interviewed.
But then that leads me to think about how important the, the personal connection is, led me to think then about when we were wearing face masks and how that affected communications. And I think I briefly mentioned it, that I spent a lot of time visiting in hospital last month or so and had to wear a face mask. you know, it really brought it back to me of how you don't know the person you need, you need that, that connection.
And then going back to road rage, online expression of discontent, whatever it is. We don't have that, that connection between people. So that separation gives the self some level of permission to express things that you wouldn't otherwise do.
and knowing this, knowing that this is a trait that humans have got is the foundations to working through it, overcoming it, and improving your life. Because I think that's why, I think that's why people listen to mental health or personal development podcasts. It's cuz there's something about the life they want to improve upon or they're just fascinated with psychology or people, maybe they're therapists or maybe they're clients. I don't I, I dunno who listens to this.
Maybe I could do a survey one day. But that's the foundation, understanding that, oh, okay. That's why I feel the way that I feel. That's why I do what I do. And everything to do with, with, with therapy, I think really is about, let's go back and understand why this happened so that you can then teach yourself how to express things in a different way. Without that little bit of understanding of why there's a pushback as if the brain says, No, this is what I do.
I can't see a reason why I shouldn't do this, so I will. Whether that's a psychodynamic approach of Let's dig through your childhood, work out what went, what problems there might have been at the start when you found, when your personality was being created that leads you to feel this way, or just a little bit of psychoeducation that, oh, this is what humans do and this is why.
Oh, that gives me permission then to take a few deep breaths and go, okay, so somebody behaved inappropriately in their car. Do I do that sometimes? Yes. Look at that person. They just changed lanes without signaling. Yeah. Have you ever done that? Yes. Ah, so have they?
Yeah, cuz people make mistakes and I would say probably most of the time, with these things, it's mistakes and, and yes, we all, we all do it. And then that, what you're saying then led me to think about evolutionary psychology. And we mentioned that briefly with William, didn't we? You know, until, well, a hundred years ago, nobody was sitting in a metal and glass box. And it's how long? 20 years. Less than that, much less than that, that, social media started. So these things are, are so new.
These opportunities to be different so new
That. Yeah, that's an interesting point.
because it would've been before social media. It was the purple pen writers who would used a purple pen to write to the newspapers. Dear sir.
Dear points of view.
Yeah. And, you know, there were people who would spend their days doing that. In fact, I know somebody who does them regularly gets letters published in the Times, et cetera. In fact, I know two people who do that, but that's, that happens much less now because you get that need met through social media.
And we all need to be aware that this is what's going on. Our world has evolved quicker than we have by a ridiculous difference. To become us has taken 6 million years from when our great, great, great, great, great, great, great many greats, grandma Dorothy fell out of the tree and went, oh, it's all right down here isn't it? I think I'll uh, choose these berries rather than those apples, for example, and great, great, great, great, great, great, great. Many greats.
Auntie Ethel stayed up the tree and went, no, I'm gonna stay up here. They became, other primates and we became eventually Neanderthals and Homo heidelbergensis and Homo Sapian and all these different things that, that populated the planet for, or tried to populate the planet for a a long time. And here we are, that's taken 6 million years. But to go from what's a car to. We're probably going to Mars very soon. It's like 150 years, if not less.
It's ridiculous and we need to be aware that that's quite overwhelming and take a few deep breaths and be okay with that. It'll be fine.
one of the things I find fascinating is to uh, I can't remember the dates now but the time between the very first flight, the Wright
Yeah. Right before
and then fight fighter planes in World War I, that that timescale is.
five years. I don't, I don't think it was, I don't think it was 10 years. It was less than 10 years. Pretty
No, I think, yeah absolutely mind blowing that that development.
Really is. Hey, another really interesting episode today, Fiona. Thank you very much for joining me and
Sure. Well, I hope, I hope, our listeners agree
Yes. What are we up to next week? We've got a guest, haven't we?
I think we have a
I think, cause that will be episode 59. I think that's gonna be with Luigi. Yeah, we said we were gonna do something with Luigi. That one didn't. We? 59? Yes. Therapy Natters. Episode 59 with Luigi recording. It's in my diary. Fabulous. Oh, I look forward to that next week. Do you know what? I've never met Luigi.
I've only met him once. He does very good hugs.
Right next time I see we're actually seeing face to face, right? We're hugging because we can now. We had to stop for a year, didn't we? And it's good to get that back. It's like coughing. It's nice to see that back, isn't it? Is it?
What? Coughing.
We always, we were very suspicious of people that were coughing a couple of years ago. Like, you're coughing. Oh, keep out your way. No, just let
Uh, See somebody now, See somebody now coughing into their elbow, I think, oh, you work in the nhs?
Coughing and hugs. It's good to have it back. Right. I'm gonna go on um, put the kettle on. Maybe I'll hug my son cuz he's, he's around somewhere. I'm not gonna cough in to his face, but I'll give him a hug at least. And that'll be quite nice.
I'll go and I'll go and hug
You can do that. Right. Enjoy your week, everybody, you know where we are if you need anything, we will speak to you next time. Bye.
Bye.