Good day Therapy Natters fans. Welcome to another episode. For new listeners, this is the podcast series where myself Richard Nicholls psychotherapists, share with you all, some insight into what goes on in that funny, Hello, Fiona. How's your funny, old lump of stuff doing today?
I wasn't sure if you were talking general lumps of stuff Which might help other people to think what their lumps of stuff might be doing. That might be the same or different, but yes, nobody really knows what Do they? Not really,
Frustratingly the more that we learn about the lump of stuff in between Because I forget the author that came up with this quote and it's been psychologists have used it that if the brain was simple enough that we could If that makes sense. And it has to be complicated for us to try and understand it , and then it gets And here we are with this really complicated set of connections in
And then
everyone is different.
and that makes me wonder how much has that changed and developed over the Probably influenced, well, definitely influenced by humankind, We can't know.
Nature or nurture. They've got the same biological brain. You go back only a few thousand years and, and life was different. Our brain is changed all the time. You'll see these headlines sometimes.
Yeah. You'll see these things that say like technology makes us stupid And it's simply because there will always be some brain scan that changes the brain because everything changes the brain, everything we've So yes, using technology is gonna change our brain, but so is looking at the color But I don't think we need all the headlines that we get that says, you know, That's, doesn't seem to be the case.
I would completely agree. It's not the case. The opening up to experience that technology has given us and the to get about the world and people in it, which wouldn't have been possible There was only a very narrow worldview because they didn't know anything else. They couldn't do.
Well, you've only gotta go back a hundred and something years Yes. Yes, it was wasn't it. And he came back to Austria with all these ideas about how talking And of course he was belittled don't be ridiculous talking Isn't gonna help some woman with her hysterics. That's not gonna, that's not gonna solve anything. And that wasn't really that long ago. That was at the same time. That literally doctors were blowing smoke up people's backside They were still doing that. I'm Ooh. Your face!
I'm trying to laugh quietly. To be, to be serious and respectful and try not to say the words. I think that could be useful treatment for certain people these days. I'm not going to say that.
We do hear that phrase still Don't blowing smoke up some And it didn't stop. Well, maybe it didn't stop. I don't know. Maybe it's still going on for all I know. But back when we were still doing that was the beginnings of when we were trying And I guess, I mean, you talk about Aristotle and, and people like that. And I think maybe they did set the ball rolling a little for people like Freud. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years later.
yeah. I'm not in any way, shape or form a philosopher, but it's interesting It was about what is life about?
Yeah. But it is about thinking and what we do with those thoughts and that thinking, one of my patrons left on, on a blog post of mine that says in response to She says, love what you're doing and exploring the difference between what Look forward to hearing more, uh, cuz the conscious and unconscious isn't it . Fiona: I can't imagine that generally And I know you wanted to explain his tripartite theory. Didn't you Richard Well, uh, okay. You, passed that to me. That's fine. Very good.
Very good. A lot of people have poo-pooed Freud. Even in our profession, I've, I've met people at conferences and I've mentioned, Oh, he was a jerk. Oh, he was, he was misogynist. Or he was, he was just a typical sexist man or whatever, but he was one of the we're not stuck in our personality, that it can be changed. And although some of his ideas were, um, uh, were very new at the time because as far as he was concerned, that was what kept a species alive So everything should be about that.
And that stigma that I think psychologists and psychotherapists have to face. People do think all we do is talk about sex as therapists. I dunno whether you find that in, in social circles, but certainly my friends. Unless I just spend all my time talking about sex. Um,
I'd say it's half that and half. I'm not gonna talk about my childhood.
yeah, I get a lot of that.
Yeah
But as for Freud, his tri- partite idea is that we are made up And he talked about it going through stages of, of early life that you You're just hungry. You're a baby screaming and you get all these angry emotions cuz you're And then we have our. ego, which develops when a little bit older that tries to manage some of these things I still want that, that toy, but I'm not just gonna snatch it off that child. I'll I'll wait a moment.
And then we've got the super ego, which develops when we're based around the Should you know, a little bit about what society expects of us, He, he used a rider in a horse as a useful metaphor that the, the, it is a, then the, the rider can learn to control the horse and the horse calms down. And it's fine. It just does as it's told, unless it gets spooked.
There's a plastic bag that blows and it makes the horse spook and then whoa, the And I quite like to take that a little bit further and say, it's that it's, it's a horse with a, with a carriage and a rider because in the back of the carriage tutting if you go the wrong way, and that seems Fiona.
I think that's a really good explanation. Uh, there's another one though. Do you remember in the college course notes, national college
Yes. I
Can you find that ? Richard: I have it open here. Analogies, a couple of analogies may provide additional clarification. Here we go. Oh yes. This is where yes. Firstly from Freud himself, the relation of ego to Id is like a man on so with his own strength while the ego uses borrowed forces.
Okay. Bit dry there Freud, but in, uh, 1966, uh, Banister, he gave the quote that said He is a dark cellar in which a well bred spinster lady and a sex crazed monkey The struggle being refereed by a rather nervous bank clerk. That is certainly less dry than the Freudian one. Isn't it?
A sex crazed monkey in the cellar. And that's our Id.
And the well bred spinster lady, obviously the super ego and the nervous all.
and that, that has stood the test of time. Freud started that off in what, 1886, something like that. So we're going back a, a long time, but most things that started then aren't still That is, and it still does seem to be the case and lots of other theory about human development does seem to suggest whether it's attachment We go through these stages and we are just all just trying to get our needs met.
and that they are all still there. I would challenge any listener to think about that for themselves. And think are there times when your monkey in the cellar is having And I'm pretty sure most people would say yes to a degree. Although hopefully they've negotiated. So there aren't serious battles going on most of the time.
Yes. Well. I think the reason these, these ideas are important for people to know And it doesn't mean that we're going crazy. It just means that we are human. But in times of stress, I think that's when it shows itself. And we need to know, okay. I have needs whatever those needs are, whether it's a need When we sense that something's not right.
Our Id will just keep on banging on the door saying, let me take control Just let me be in charge and we need to know that's what's going on so that And then we know what to work with.
And to a certain extent to allow it to be within certain confines. So allowing the Id to express itself when you are on your That might be absolutely fine, but it might not be, if you were to go into
And this is why Carl Jung, who, uh, people tend to I mean he did, I guess,
they overlapped. Yeah.
And they clashed. I think they clashed on quite a few things.
I think probably about the whole everything being about sexual And, it was him that said let's look at this Id, ego, super ego parts Because with patients that he was seeing, he could see that there were his daughter Anna did expand upon and, and Jung could see all of that and go, Personas as he called them, the, the version of ourself that we show the world, persona for your aging granny than it is for the girl who pours beer behind the And what, what Jung wanted to say
is that they're all appropriate and
Except when they're not, because that is part of the theory is that we Or me just showing off. Yes, my persona as the posh Latin one. No. You can have either, we will all be showing ourselves to the world in one and match the real self the better, but still recognizing that there are times So if you were going for tea with the Queen, you'd probably be less real. Then, if you're going to the pub with your mates for most people.
But some people are not terribly real when they're out in the So that's something to work on.
It is because if we're not connecting to ourself, if we're not If anybody likes you, it's not the real you, they like, it's this persona if that persona is still a part of us, it's still you, then it is you And even if you are being fake, but they like you, then that can
As you were talking, then my mind went off towards the celebrity So much of the time, these days. And then we have, what do they call it? Something reality, adapted reality or augmented reality. That's it augmented reality. Isn't it? So you have people on these sorts of shows who are pretending to be
Yeah,
That's very weird. Isn't it? I mean, it's, it's just weird, bizarre, the idea this could be entertainment.
The people that have been involved in that they've publicly, to be themselves and acting at the same time, but don't act like the real, you, This is the story we want to say. So act that out and then they'll do it again and go, no, but this time, do it
And they then very muddled
Yeah. Cuz then they lose themselves cuz they know the outside world sees me This is who I've got to be, but this isn't who I want to be. And that's, that's been painful for them.
then that leads me to the idea of social media and how so many people. Not all by any means. A lot of people feel that they have to show a certain version of themselves to So that's really is putting on a persona. We see it with body shape, hair, makeup, clothes, locations. Backdrops, filters, all of these things that people are doing
Do you love me like this?
Which by definition is not, it's not real. Is it?
Yeah, that's when social media, Isn't used for the right reasons never been in such a good position in the world, this period right now, I mean, living in it, you might not realize that. Cause we do look around sometimes and go things look a bit crap. Oh, there's been lots of crappy times. Don't worry. This is still the best it's ever been and hopefully it's gonna get even better, but To use social media, to connect with each other. To create a sense of belonging.
That's what it should be used for.
I was talking to a colleague just this morning about social And I think it is worth recognizing that there's two different One is in my book is to be yourself and to connect with other people. So for example, I was at a wedding few days ago, posted pictures of the wedding
Hmm.
I wasn't in the picture. But I didn't need to be in the picture cuz it wasn't about me. It wasn't my wedding. But that's the connection to other people and other people who were there But then you've also got the use of social media to get a message out, and to say. In whatever business you are in, whether it is as a therapist, whether and in that context, that's like any other marketing, they're building a brand.
So I suppose it's sort of, don't be fooled into thinking that the one that's building That's building a brand. Then that ties into the idea of a persona, a persona. That is your brand. That's when it goes off. That's when it goes wonky.
Yeah. I'm a cheery chappy. And we've mentioned this before a couple of episodes ago that And I, you probably remember where that came from. There's been a few training courses that I've been on over the years. And if, if I've had to, co-present some presentation with somebody, I Must have been 10, 15 years ago, something like that. And I was doing a presentation with trying to remember who it was. It was good old Christian Baker, good old Christian Baker Great guy.
And we were doing a presentation together and our two characters Out of the Winnie the pooh characters. I'm definitely the Tigger bouncing around the stage and he's, he was trying to He was more, I forget which Winnie the pooh character. He ended up getting the label of, but I think it was wise it was the owl. It may well have been the owl that was like, okay, let's just And that Tigger, character. That I brought out and show I realize is the real me that isn't a persona.
And for a long time, I thought it was. That I needed to just play this character in order to be This is the persona that I created, and this is the one that people seem to And actually the more that I did, the more comfortable I became Or rather, as my self-esteem went up, the more I could allow that real It's okay, but I'm not Tigger 24 hours a day for every single person that I see. I'm not Tigger at work with a client in front of me telling me That would be, that would be horrible.
I mean, maybe there. Top now maybe I am. I don't know. This is something for me to bring up in supervision next Fiona But cuz consulting room and my clients know that cuz they've listened to my podcast or I know this guy is genuine when he is with me, but this version This part of him, the one that can sit in silence and say nothing. And just wait for them to open up patiently, not judging them, That's a real me as well. I don't have to fill in the gaps with something bouncy.
Woo. I don't need to do that. But they're all me.
That is a, I would say brilliant example of the theory, in But there is an element of this theory that we haven't touched on yet. And we really must.
The dark side?
The dark side, the shadow. Jung called it the shadow.
I often like to think of the shadow as being, not really as a shadow, but as over your shoulder with, and it's gotta be over your shoulder cuz it's behind And that contains all the things that either you don't like about So you shove it all into this big black sack, carry it over your shoulder The thing is though that looking at it is really quite a good idea from And usually when people do have a little look, they're surprised, Some of the things that are in there don't need to be in there.
And some of the things that they fear being. Well, they know that they're not, if they actually look at it, An example of It's something that we are brought up. Don't show off, stop blowing your own trumpet, sit down, be quiet. Don't talk about yourself, all of that of stuff that we have. And so when people are told off, don't be too big for your boots. That's another. It gets shoved into the shadow. Whereas, well, a lot of the time, if people are proud of something
It's one of the seven deadly sins though.
Yes.
And it shouldn't be, we should be proud.
I think there's a lot to be said for a lot of the seven deadly sins. I love bit of sloth from time to time. Well, a lot of the time. But you need the three elements to be complete in Jung's theory, Everybody's gonna have one and never goes away, but a, a regular Get to know the real self as much as you can and use persona wisely to fit
Mm, yeah.
So you feel safe and good in whatever scenario you go into.
And I think feeling safe is the key to all of this. Because a lot of our defense mechanisms that our brain pulls on to try If there's something there to help protect us from anxiety, and it does protect us Nothing's a problem unless it causes problems. But if our defenses get in the way of us living an authentic life and being It's trying to keep us safe, but it's not. It's holding us back from happiness and contentment and wellbeing.
And we do need to look at our shadow self to have a look what's in that bag. And then we can pull things out and go, oh, actually I'm, as my wife said think you are, you know, she said to And it really did open up the, I suppose I'm not. Now it could, this was years ago. What I could have done at that point is gone. Oh, I fooled you too. But fortunately I didn't.
I realized with a bit of work and a bit of therapy that I'm not as bad as I thought I That actually I'm, I'm one of the good ones here. I'm one of the good guys. I'm the, I'm the protagonist of my story. I'm not the antagonist at all, but until you look in your shadow sack And what is there is forgivable.
We don't become our true selves and we do hold back from connections And, I think we all need to explore all of these things in order to be a There there's my little bit of self-disclosure for the day.
Pretty, good summary. That of course you were hinting at it, but didn't explicitly say it, that that ties are those impulses there that we might be afraid might get out if we don't keep and then just going back to the idea of the, The, the not allowing I won't name the person, but a famous person famous, not just for So the bedroom light was always off. And I just find that so sad. That just not able to be real, not able to reveal her real self in in that way.
Oh, what a shame. Yeah. Yeah. We, we shouldn't live that way. Well, Fiona, this is a topic that takes way more than one, as close And I feel we say that a lot
We do. We do. We find out don't we, but I use this theory in my work a lot of the time. it's a useful theory to hang your hat on quite often in So it's very very, useful.
Keep it here. Therapy fans, because we will be returning to this topic time and time again. In response to questions that you send in. So if you have any questions that you want to send us, feel free to do. So there is a link in the show notes to a form on my website that you can fill in. Ask us a question and we'll see if we can get you featured in some So we better go any final words before we disappear, Fiona.
no, don't have any Uh, just to say, you can submit questions anonymously. I know regular listeners will know that, but if you're new, you might not realize And we will just refer to you as such
Or change your name? It's fine. call yourself what you want. It really doesn't matter. Right everybody let's disappear off for today. As always, we'll be back next week. I'm sure. Have a super week be good to yourself and be good to everybody else. And let's see if we can make the world a better place. Have a good un folks