Richard: [00:00:00] Hi there, therapy fan. And don't say you're not one, cuz you just clicked on a podcast that's literally called Therapy Natters, so you clearly have an interest in it. Even if you're not having therapy yourself, you obviously want to hear us nattering about it and so we will. I'm Richard Nicholls and fellow psychotherapist.
Fiona Biddle is here alongside me too. Happy Podcast Day, Fiona. How are things.
Fiona: It's good to just wonder if they, there might be some people who think it's Therapy, Nutters, and then they might click on it for that,
Richard: had
a few, a few people message me that did say, I thought the title was Therapy Nutters and Cuz when, when, when we were
Fiona: We don't mind, do we?
Richard: But is it a slur to be a nutter? It's what, it's the meaning behind it always,
Fiona: it is.
Richard: I once made a, a social media post that [00:01:00] was trying to celebrate that. It was a list of great things about you, you know, you are great and your mind is insanely cool. And had some listeners messaged me that went, didn't like it, didn't like insanely being used as a, a verb like that. or as an adjective like that, get my English right.
adverb. Is it an adverb
that's describing how you're going somewhere, isn't it?
Insanely, oh, you're doing something
Fiona: if you, if you've got Lee on the end, it's an adverb. , sorry,
but No,
Richard: thing about the English language is that it changes over
Fiona: oh gosh, we, I mean, the word insanely is often used as a hyperbole because we've run out of others. So we've added that one.
Richard: Hyperbole is literally my middle.
Fiona: Is it literally no.
Richard: I mean, there's supposed to be a joke in there, but it's not a very funny joke.
Fiona: But Nutter is usually used. Friendly Lilly, isn't it?
Richard: I always think of Rick Mayall.
Dunno, why? Well, I often think of Rick [00:02:00] Mayall I think the guy was hilarious. Bit of an idol of mine,
Fiona: Yes.
Richard: but that sort of, I'm a nutter sort of character. I find an affinity there because I am a bit of a nutter, but I don't need treatment for that. That's just personality type and I'm not gonna pathologize my personality.
Fiona: is a word for somebody who's a bit eccentric and a bit different. Not, not really pejorative as to being. Most of the time,
Richard: that's all right. And I think there's a part of us that always wants to let go hang loose, be a bit of a nutter, and we, we tend to suppress. Through social norms or schemers where we've been brought up in a particular way that says, no, this is how you're supposed to behave.
Fiona: Yeah, I would hope that we all do have that little bonkers bit that's likes to think differently, be a bit different, be a bit off the wall. oh gosh. I don't wondering if, if anybody's [00:03:00] listening and thinking, I don't, then I don't want to be insulting them by saying that you've squashed it.
But I do wonder if you might have squashed it, cuz I suppose it's the childlike part, isn.
Richard: Yeah. When we are developing our personality, we are a, we are a child. and, and that's in a child. Sometimes does get squashed through our culture, through our need to please others or, or the tyranny of the should. This is how I should be, this is what I'm supposed to be like. And then we are not being true to ourselves.
And I remember. This is going back a fair few years. We had some speakers at a conference who were play therapists and they didn't realize that when they arrived at the conference to present that most of the attendees worked with adults, not children. And they were a bit stumped at first thinking, oh, but we are supposed to be talking about how you help children with their play as therapy. Within a few moments, they were able to have a little chat with themselves and chat to us and go, that's fine. We can definitely Turn this into what [00:04:00] adults should be doing for their inner child to be able to play cuz our inner child needs to play, whether it's PlayStation five, solitaire, or drawing, or just creative thinking or playing in any way, shape, or form. Ask any grandparent how wonderful it is to relive all of that and get down on the ground and just play with little toys. It's lovely.
Fiona: And isn't it, isn't it interesting how people often really formalize play, which is sort of taking an element of the freedom of play away of, oh no, you, you don't move that piece that way. You have to use that one. That one only goes.
Richard: I think people assume that their personalities are rigid, that there is only. Me and that is the me that dominates. I am just me. I don't have an an inner me. There isn't another me that likes to [00:05:00] play and another me that wants to do something else. Now there is, I'm sorry, there is
Fiona: It's a useful way of looking at the. Personality as having lots of mes. I'm trying to find the thing that was on Instagram was a, an Instagram clip of. , very little girl, probably about three saying,
I think it's time that as you just tell the inner mind critical committee to zip it.
Richard: Mm-hmm.
Fiona: was from a three year. I mean, I, I know these things are, are scripted. Of course they are. But they probably come from a place where this kid's got something so they, they built it in. But you know, just that, that idea of coming from a, a small child of the Inner Minds critical committee, zip it, it was very sweet.
Richard: Yeah.
Fiona: a useful way thinking about the, the mind that it can have a critical committee because we often talk about everyday parts as well as in the therapy [00:06:00] world. We talk about the inner critic or you've got the, the bit of you that's always telling you off or telling you should do this telling you shouldn't do that.
but you can expand it and have a critical committee going on inside you as well. Pull it apart or just tell it to zip it, but telling it to zip it probably temporarily. Yes, for now, but longer term don't. Let's talk to you. What are you there?
Richard: Let's talk to you. Yes. Getting to understand that inner critic, it's one thing to have an inner advocate that is gonna stand up for you, but if you try to use the inner advocate to overpower you're inner critic. The inner critic isn't gonna go anywhere and it's not gonna change its criticisms. Everything that goes on in our mind and and our behavior. And our feelings is there for a reason. And those things need exploring either with a therapist or without. How great would it be if we could take all of those parts of us, the [00:07:00] inner critic, the inner advocate, the part of us that wants to do one thing, the part that wants to do another, and sit them down in a room and go, let's have a chat about what your goals are and why. A bit like how there's this idea that if you can get all the world leaders together in a room that disagree with each other and have a good chat about their goals and their needs. You'll find that they've all got the same needs and they've all got what they think is the right way of getting those needs met. Well, if we just talk to each other, whether it's leaders of, of countries, whether it's in couples counseling, whether it's our inner parts, if we just sit and talk to each other and figure out what's going on. We can gain a huge amount of insight and see that we We can all get on, and that's not easily done when it's just ourself, but it's not impossible.
Fiona: It's not, there are quite a few different [00:08:00] theories around this. people have come up with ways to explain the parts of the self and to give them labels and hence to enable to encourage a dialogue between them.
And it seems to me, as with so much in the therapy world, that people get a theory say, this is the way, this is the answer. But Mm, there are, there are lots of them. So I'd, I'd like to start by just explaining the, the most simple one, I think, which is the, in therapy terms, C Roy Hunter's work, which is based on the work of Charles Tebbitt.
That's just called parts therapy. And it's a, a tool to use within hypnosis, which is the idea that we identify two conflicting parts. And I think most people who are listening would recognize that sometimes they have conflicting parts. They have the part that's [00:09:00] afraid to do such and such, and the other part really wants the same thing. They have a part that really wants to get fit and active and, well, and the other part that wants to sit on the sofa the part that wants to push ahead at work and the part that wants to not, and the key with Hunter's thing is, is the conflict. It's not just random little, there's part of me that likes chocolate and there's a part of me that wants to go on a rollercoaster.
they're not the same. You need the pairing of the two parts to look at the conflict and in that scenario, it is possible and not exactly difficult. Might be challenging, but you know, the process isn't difficult, is to, to give each of those parts a voice and to see.
They want from it, what's their purpose? again, the theory is that they will both have a positive intent and that the intent will be [00:10:00] the same. Doesn't always work like that in practice, but that's the theory. But if you chunk it up high enough to to more ethereal needs like freedom or happiness or success.
Those sorts of things. You usually do tend to find that , they have very similar aims and then you can get them to come together and compromise and see that there's a good way to get that need met, is usually the positive one.
Richard: If it's our, if it's our unconscious mind, our, our body, our emotions that drive our behavior a lot of the time. And these two parts say there's a part of you that wants to sit on the sofa and there's a part of you that wants to get fit. the path of least resistance is to sit on the sofa. If both of those parts have the same goal, which is well, I just wanna be happy, it's much easier to be happy doing nothing than it is doing something, [00:11:00] obviously. But if you can get those parts of you to interact and talk in, in a friendly way, not in a critical way, no judgment, but get to know those parts of. then you are unconscious. That drives those behaviors can learn well. If I wanna be happy and actually in the long term, I'm gonna be more happy If I'm fitter and I better get off the sofa and I'll want to get off the sofa. I'll actually feel good about myself from getting off the sofa. I'll be happy.,
Fiona: we'd find this in therapy that people come in and. . Literally they say, well, there's a part of me that does this and there's a part of me that does that. And as soon as I hear that, I'm right. Thank you, . You've just given me, you've just given the answer because that's what we do. Then
Richard: We've now got a treatment plan for your first couple
Fiona: we, we've got, we've got something ready to go.
Going back to the critical committee. [00:12:00] There fancier ways of doing it rather than just having two conflicting parts that you, you talk to. And one of them is that it's called Internal Family Systems, which takes the ideas that come from family and systemic therapy and brings them inside to individual.
And they label parts as things like firefighters or exiles. . And so they're, they're looking at what different parts are doing for the whole. I was listening to a Tony Robbins seminar the other day, and I did write down his parts, but that book is nowhere near me right now. But I do remember that he had parts of a magician, a monarch, and a lover.
So he's got his own way of coming up with, parts, but in essence, they're all doing the same sort of process of negotiation. And one that I've worked with a few [00:13:00] times these are very dependent on what the client wants. if I suggest this, then the client, their eyes lays over.
Well, we move on to something else, but some people go, oh yeah. So this idea is to have basically a, a government or a cabinet. If you are using a British model of government, you have the cabinet table, cabinet room which the self overarching self is the Prime Minister. But then you have the different parts are the different ministers.
So you have a minister for. You have a Minister for Finance, well, chancellor of the Checker. You have a minister for education. all, or any combination
of these people. And by using that model, you can quite often find one who's ignored and maybe another who shouts too loudly and gets more attention than they deserve for the whole.
And you can use that. [00:14:00] Develop a balance in the system and it could be quite fun as well.
Richard: Hmm I like that. I ask my clients to, to, think about those parts of them this is all in a daydream. This is just imagination. Sometimes in hypnosis, but sometimes it's just. Pseudo hypnosis where you ask somebody to just, just to close your eyes. I just want you to use your imagination a little bit for me. I mean, is that hypnosis? Of course it is. Somebody, we're always, we're always in an end, a percentage of hypnosis because it's about focusing of attention. And even without being, being called a hypnotherapist, any therapist is a hypnotherapist. every therapist monitors the way that they talk to their clients to make sure use the right sort of language that fits for them. Just they're trying to create rapport. They're trying to create a focused attention in their clients. Well, yeah, that, that's, that's hypnosis. So even without that sort of formal, close your eyes, spend five minutes going down some magical [00:15:00] stair. You just close your eyes and use your imagination and think about a round table, for example, with a King Arthur character, and then these other, all these other characters, or you use Dungeons and Dragons, or you use, like you say, a cabinet. if somebody's a teacher, you'd use the staff room. If somebody's young, you'd use whatever is appropriate for them.
Get inside. Their head, you are gonna get inside yours when you do this work. Well, get inside your head, have a chat to these parts of you. Bring them out. Use your imagination. I think it's worth mentioning that when therapists ask people to see something in their mind, it's not like a TV screen. or a hallucination. You don't necessarily see anything. You might just get a sense of, you might just get a feel of, and that's good enough when somebody says, oh, well, I'm not very good at imaginary stuff. I, I, I can't picture things in my [00:16:00] mind. I ask them what their kettle at home looks like. and they'll describe it. And I said, well, when you thought about what your kettle looks like, that is all your imagination needs to be. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. And they go, well, I didn't see anything in my mind. I was just describing my kettle. Yeah, but you, you know what your kettle looks like.
And that didn't necessarily come from logic, it came from imagination. That's good enough. So when I ask you to think about King Arthur that's fine.
Fiona: It is, it is an interesting thing. , the, there is a thing. , technically called Aphantasia for people who have a literal problem in the brain. I know somebody who's had a brain scan that shown that the particular area of the brain is not activated when asked to imagine something where most people's would be activated but that same person I've said, close your eyes, think of an apple. Is it red or green? Red? Does it have a leaf? No. Does it have a [00:17:00] worm poking its head out? No. Don't be stupid. You know, so the, even with a, a diagnosis of Aphantasia, people, Do it is just done differently and you know, it, it might be a factor if you were wanting a, a job designing well as an architect or something where you, you need to be able to have some sort of idea of what something's going to be like.
But even then, I'm sure there would be, architects would say, oh no, no, no, cuz I do it this way. But it definitely can be a block in our work where people say, oh, I can't imagine. I can't imagine. Yes, you. You can imagine well enough. Almost everybody can.
Richard: Yeah. Well
enough. Yeah,
and, and of course if you've got an inner critic that's always telling you that you're no good at anything, the slightest evidence to that, oh, I can't do that. Well, of course you'd believe that because you've got an inner critic that dominates. Well, we need to have a chat with that inner critic and, and see what's going on.
Fiona: I've had it [00:18:00] quite useful to ask people, you know, if, if they do read novels, then well, what do you see when you're reading a novel? Because for me personally, if I'm reading a novel, I see the places, but the people are just figures. They, they've got no no substance to them. They might have a, a sp sort of size, but then if I find out that the size doesn't tally with.
What I've thought. It's annoying, so I, I, I just go on places, whereas some people will go, oh, no, no, no. The people are all really detailed. They, I know all their facial features and, but I guess what I'm saying is it doesn't matter. Whatever you do is okay. and in, in part's work some of the time. One, one thing that I'll do is if I'm doing that two conflicting part things, I'll get 'em to put their hands out in front of them and to put one part on their left hand and one part on their right hand, and then say, do these parts look like, [00:19:00] sound like, or feel like anyone or anything, you know?
And. , then it goes into whatever system they want to be using. So they might say, oh gosh, yes, that negative part sounds like my father or my third form English teacher or whatever. I've had ones that said, it sounds like God. But whatever they say, it's, it's okay. But other people will have a completely visual image and.
It's annoying that I can only remember one of these, but I had somebody who had two parts and one was a cabbage, but I can't remember what his other part was. Cuz it's just the cabbage that stuck in my head as, okay, a cabbage is representing a part of you, but it's whatever. works and it's okay.
You can go with it.
Richard: So how would somebody do this for themselves if they needed to go and sit down, close their eyes and do this for themselves? Is it that simple? You
just sit down with the theory, with the idea that [00:20:00] there's a part of you that wants one thing and a part of you that wants another. Let's respect each other and talk this through, and they sit down and do that.
Fiona: Yeah, I think it can be as simple as that. I think you can encourage them to really get into what their purpose is, to start with and see what the commonalities are. And yeah, you can talk, you could utilize another, theory from gtar therapy, which is the idea of two chair, that's not really a theory, it's a technique.
Two chair work where you move from one chair to another. So you have a chair in the corner of your room, which is the, the part that's allowed to speak. or I have two chairs in your room and in one you, you sit as the cabbage and one you sit as whatever the other part is, and that they talk and you move from one to the other chair.
So you can do that, but you can also write it down. You can have a dialogue, a written dialogue. If that's the way that you like to work. You can draw. , [00:21:00] you can do anything you like. You can dance, you can sing. You could let them express themselves within that space of non-judgment. So there's the, the idea is that they will understand the other and come to a collaborative viewpoint.
Richard: I like the idea that self therapy, if that's what it's gonna be, can be. Almost any way that you need it to be done. And if all it is is drawing, it's scribbling a part of you that is the critic and it's being more careful and and gentle with some pencil lines of the part of you that is your inner advocate. And then just simply imagining what those two characters, if only one was allowed to speak at any one. and you would've asked them, okay, it's your turn. Tell me what you need and tell me why you're asking me to behave in this way or do these things. But it can come up with some answers. [00:22:00] And that's just from a page of a four printer paper and a couple of pencils. but it genuinely can be that simple. But it means doing it. It means removing the stigma of doing it. Cause a lot of people would think, oh, this is ridiculous. Why? Who? Who told you it was ridiculous? Where did that belief
Fiona: part is that? That's because I was getting the idea of when you were talking about pencils and things I was thinking about, oh, what about the part that doesn't let you color beyond the line that you have to stay in the lines? Ooh. Could that be, that could be a challenge. Couldn't it? Give you, give your part that wants to be free a pencil and say you can color anywhere on this page.
Ooh, I feel uncomfortable because part of me wanted to look nice, stay in the lines.
Richard: Hmm. Whereas I'm so chaotic that staying in the lines is not important to me.
But rules see seem[00:23:00] the right thing to set because if there are no rules, then we. Anarchy, we've got chaos and anything could happen. Well, not anything. And that's why I think we have this inner parent maybe that tries to rule and control the should. Well, this is what you should be doing and unless you listen to that part of. and work out why? Why should I? Unless you play with that, you end up just replaying old, schemers, old tapes, as we used to call them in the past, just playing over the old tapes.
Well, that does that tape that you're playing now, that that belongs 20 years ago, that that might have been appropriate then when you were nine, but now you're 29, you don't need to play that tape anymore. But until you. To that tape being played and recognize where it started, why, what the purpose was, what it serves.
And it's almost [00:24:00] always, but it'll be better for you cuz it'll keep you safe, it'll make you happy. For example, safe and happy. Those are the two things that when you chunk it all up, we tend to get to, don't we?
Fiona: Yeah. Yeah, we do. it is about safety, but that then leads to if you're safe, you're happy, you're okay if you're safe. But then I was just thinking, you know, my, my kids are out. I'm in France. My kids are out on the slopes as we speak.
I want them to obey the rules. Please. Yes. I don't want them to be going.
Richard: Yeah.
Fiona: piece and doing silly things. I want them to do what they're supposed to do. But again, it's safety rules are
about safety. But when is that the right thing to do? As in ski slope? But some people would disagree.
They'd say they were the best fun is when you go off piste. No thank you. But in other things, people will be doing a coloring and have to stay in the lines that isn't actual safety [00:25:00] doesn't actually matter if you go over a line as an adult, as a child,
Richard: but it might, it might feel.
Fiona: it might
feel
Richard: As skiing off piste it really would. And it needs challenging because it's one thing to be drawing outside of the lines, which is Oh, okay. It's not really life controlling doesn't change my life much if I do or do not go over the lines. Just a a minor irritant, but it This same process applies to beginning and ending relationships, choosing jobs, moving out from your parents' house, all these big big decisions. And it's full of these, but what's the right thing to do? But I'm pregnant, so I better get married.
Why
Fiona: Are you,
Richard: do what you like. What about you? That would be a miracle
Fiona: Fortune. A.
Richard: for lots of reasons. Oh, I had a vasectomy for a start, so I'm not sure how that works, but, or, or while it doesn't, I mean, I don't have the [00:26:00] bits, and I've got a couple of inches missing. Okay. I did a podcast episode about it at the time. I can't remember why it seemed appropriate. it was a right mess down there. Goodness me. It was, oh. God, it, it was like an override banana and two bashed mangoes. Oh, it was everywhere, But it looked worse than it felt because that's how bruises are. They look worse than they usually feel unless you've been sideswiped by a car. This was precision surgery, so it was, it was just a bruise and yeah, it was tender. Don't get me wrong, but. It looked worse than it actually was, and I, I don't know.
I'm, it sounds like I'm going off topic and I, I think I am, but I think my unconscious
is
Fiona: wondering whether you were off topic here.
Richard: wow, I'm a tangential person.[00:27:00] yeah, I can't bring that back onto topics about parts therapy. I really can't it stumped me,
Fiona: Well, it's all right. It's okay. You don't have to, and you don't have to edit it out. Leave it in. It's. You went outside
the
lines.
Richard: I have no
Fiona: You went outside the lines.
Richard: Yes.
Fiona: Yay.
Richard: Damn it. Well done. Yeah, Because we all want an easy life, don't we? And if we try too hard to make things perfect. To stay in the rules, to stay in the lines. There's a sacrifice that has to be made to our peace of mind. And if what, if the reason we're trying to stay in the lines, whatever that means to you is to create peace of mind and it's not, cuz it's making things worse, then that needs to be challenged. It really does. Yeah. Yeah. This is better done with a therapist. I.
Fiona: Yes,
Richard: but it, like we say, it doesn't have to [00:28:00] be, you can do some self therapy.
Fiona: you can. And I mean, that's the point of these natters isn't it really? I mean, apart from the fact that we enjoy uttering the purpose is to help people to gain some level of awareness, which may lead to being enough or it may lead to some going to see somebody. But if enough is enough, it's enough.
Richard: somebody asked me once, can going to therapy make things worse for people that if they just used a denial, for example, and pretended everything was fine, then it, they'd have just stayed. in that moderate level of pain, whereas going to therapy sometimes can unpack a lot of stuff and you realize you've got problems you didn't even know you had. And I thought potentially yes, but in the long term, that's probably for the good. Am I right
Fiona: Yeah. Yeah. I think so because I, I nearly said this about your vasectomy. You, you have the pain in order to get the [00:29:00] pleasure, but then I decided not to say that because I thought that was a bit crass. But, so I haven't said that.
Richard: it was absolutely true
Fiona: I, I
have, I have, have not, I have not said that. But in terms of going for therapy, yes, it can.
more painful, but in order to get to a place that's more comfortable. But I have heard questions over the years. I've had people inquiring or via supervises or whatever of somebody who's, well, let's say either very old or very ill. I, they haven't got a lot of time left. Is it really worth it to go through all that?
everybody has their own, has their own choices. But I think that there are times when you just say no, or certainly there'll be times where it's not. Now Got enough on your plate.
Richard: Hmm.
Fiona: Keep going with your defense mechanisms.
Richard: Yeah.
Fiona: work on it later. And one key [00:30:00] time with that would be, which obviously as you're pregnant, you'll be going through this right now, that you don't get into , you don't get into tough sort of childhood issues when you're pregnant.
you might, if they are coming up and interfering with that, you could do some work to help you put them to one side, but you. Work to resolve them at that point. It'd help to keep them,
put them, put them away till later.
Richard: Yeah, Yeah, there, there's a time and a place for it. And certainly, I've heard therapists say that they've been concerned that they might get, often it's this way round, but it isn't always. They might get husbands turn up at their clinic where they work and say, you made my wife leave me. And the therapist is worried that they'll get the blame for teaching somebody some. Some skills to have the confidence to, to leave their marriage because it, it's true. That situation does [00:31:00] happen. People do come for therapy and their confidence is low, and you help them with their confidence and it gives them enough confidence to end a, a long-term relationship.
That does happen. is that a good thing or not? Well, I, I, I'm saying yes, if that's what they wanted and they wanted it five years ago, but didn't have the confidence to admit it to themselves.
Fiona: I would, I would say
Richard: look at all your
Fiona: I would say yes, but that's the key. It's look at all, I'd say other parts, because I have heard instances where a therapist has really pushed somebody into you. Truth is your truth. You go with what is right for you to the extent that they forget about everything else. No man is an island.
We all live within systems so therapy needs to recognize that. So within. Parameter, I would say yes. And I also will say, and [00:32:00] you might want to add this out but I would also say that I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often that people complain about this,
but it's very, it's very rare that people do complain about it.
Richard: Yeah. It, it, it is. Yeah. But I, I expect it does happen. Okay, let's wrap up for today, Fiona cuz time is ticked on
what we always say. Keep in touch if there's a topic idea you'd like us to nat about, you know where to find us. Link is in the show notes. There's a form that you can give us a question. If you've got a specific question,
ask us.
Right. Let's leave them to it. Have a super week, everybody. Speak to you next time.
Fiona: Bye.
Richard: Bye for now.