Hello, hello, hello, how are you? It's therapy Natters Time with Richard Nicholls and Fiona Biddle two psychotherapists with an interest in dumping stuff out of our heads and into a microphone. On the off chance that it'll mean you don't have to have as many counseling sessions. Good day Fiona. Is that what we do this for? To help people so they don't have to have so many therapy sessions that they've got a bit of a leg up.
Well, it could be, it could also be that they might then have more because they might discover that exploring some of the issues that arise during these Natters might make them think, Ooh.
That's me.
I spoke to somebody just the other day and he said, what do you do? Inwardly, I groaned because I know what's coming. But I said, oh, I'm a psychotherapist. And he was, oh, and this, this time he, he actually said, I don't know anything about that. And I said, well, you do because you're a human being, so you do know something about it. You just don't know, you know, something about it. But then there were a couple of other people there as well.
I just got grilled for the rest of the coffee break during my bridge session. But it was clear that they hadn't given any thought to any of this. They were just plodding away through life and not contemplating I say it was clear. No, it wasn't clear. My perception was that it was likely that they hadn't really been considering their mental health. They were just getting on with life.
For a lot of people, that's okay.
it's okay, but
a problem unless it causes problems, even denial of our issues. If denial as a defense mechanism is working for you, then you've not got a problem cuz it's helping you. It's just when things aren't working for
Yeah. I also, I'm also reminded of a student who as most people will know, when you are training to be a psychotherapist, you have to have therapy yourself. It's a requirement and this particular student was saying, but I don't have any problems. I wouldn't have anything to talk about, and it took a bit of doing. But I did help him to get to the point where he recognized that he could talk about his philosophy of life. perhaps his reasons for being how he is now.
Not that there's any problem with how he is now. That's all fine, but let's have a look at what brought me to being who I am and living like this rather than being something different and living somewhat differently. And obviously, for most people that would really be a bit of an indulgence, but it could still be quite fun if you could do it. But it still helps the trainee psychotherapist to get an idea of what Psychotherapy's about.
And everybody, when they start that process will find that there are things where they realize that maybe this could be a little bit different or better. Or, or, yeah. gaining awareness.
Yes. And the reason we do this is so that if a client comes in with a similar issue, we are in a position to be able to help them without having to face our own issues and go, oh, why am I struggling with this client? And then you take it to your supervisor and go, why am I struggling with this? Supervisor says, well, let's investigate, shall we? And then go, oh. I think this should be spoken about with your therapist instead.
if a therapist has not looked at their own issues, then it's likely that those sorts of situations will occur and the default position will be to collude to say oh, yes, I know exactly how you feel. No, you don't. You went through something similar or even very much the same, but it's not the same. And collusion is one of the worst things in therapy. No, it's not.
No,
I just, I was, I was just about to say, so if anybody's in therapy and their therapist is colluding with them Well do something. There can be little times when it's appropriate, so I wouldn't want somebody to have a knee jerk reaction and say, oh, you just colluded with me. I'm going. But you could raise it and ask. But there, there are occasions when a therapist will actively decide to collude for a little while for a particular.
of the client, if there's a reason for it. Yeah. But if that's all they do, then that's not therapy. You're not getting, the client isn't gonna get their needs met in therapy from that. That might feel listened to. But I'm not sure they'd really feel understood. I'm not sure they'd go away with anything really. And that's why training as a therapist is such a long process. It's not something you can do on a weekend course. You can buy a diploma.
And read a book because the word therapist is not a protected title. Anybody can call themselves a therapist and actually, counselor, psychotherapist, nurse. These are not protected titles. Anybody can call themselves whatever the heck they like. So yeah, investigate your therapist, make sure they're qualified and they know what they're doing.
Good idea,
So we had a particular question that came in just before Christmas, I think it was, which was. Kind of useful for the new year. So we were thinking we could tie it in with a new year sort of stuff. And it's still January. Oh, is it? Let's have a look at the date when this episode comes out. Yes. it's an evergreen sort of issue anyway, this isn't it really.
Yes,
Question submission from June. June says, could moving home of 20 years changing jobs, starting a new relationship, be causing my major and frequent mood swings. I'm happy to leave the city that we, my family were living in, and happy to leave two horrible jobs I had. I've also started a new loving relationship, though it makes me nervous. Is this why I'm so erratic? I'm going from being gloomy to fun and humorous and apprehensive within minutes. Well, June, thank you for your question.
Sorry, things are a bit of a rollercoaster for you, at the minute, but actually it makes a lot of sense that you feel the way that you feel because let's just reread that 20 years. I know what it's like to live in the same place for 20 years. And then move, cuz that happened to me a about 18 months ago. And even now, my wife is still saying, this doesn't feel right. Now that might be because genuinely it's not as suitable a property as we thought it was. And that's, our problem.
But it could just be that the brain doesn't like change. Because that's not a very good evolutionary trick to really like change and thrive on it. We've done well on this planet because we found a balance between too little novelty and too much risk. We found that nice sweet spot that allows us to be fascinated by the novelties of stuff and be intrigued and curious. But also to tread carefully and be a bit wary. And so change whatever it is.
No matter what changes you make, it's gonna make you anxious, isn't it?
It's one of the lovely paradoxes of being human. That change is inevitable and we fear it. Isn't that just, I love that. It's like the other one of nobody has a right to judge you, but they'll do it anyway. I just, they just make me smile. The, the, and, you know, the dichotomous behavior. I don't want chocolate. I want chocolate. You know, the, all, all these things that together. makes us human? These paradoxes. I, I just, I just think they're great. But my basic answer to June is yes.
It might be something else. But what you say makes sense. Yes. you've got three, was it three? Yes. Three. Moving, jobs, relationship. All at once.
mm.
That part of the, of the mind that wants to know what's happening wants that feeling of safety and security is going to be jumping up and down saying, hang on a minute.
Yeah, it's an exaggerated version of the analogy I use is that it's a bit like driving to work. And you find there's a diversion. And you have to go a different way. You still get to work at roughly the same time, but everything felt weird. The day started wrong. Having to go to the doctors in the morning or to the dentist and then coming in a little late. Everything's just different.
You're sitting at the same desk doing the same job, but it just feels wrong cuz everything's been done differently that day. And I think that's where the phrase, oh, you got outta bed the wrong side, didn't you? That's not about getting out and banging your head against a wall. It just means you started your day with a different routine and the brain feels safe with routines. You're alive. Congratulations. Whatever you did yesterday was a great thing. Do it again.
And if you don't, the brain goes, what are you doing? What are you doing? I dunno how long it takes for it to catch up. but for some people it's a matter of just a couple of months. For others, it's a couple of years. Who knows?
Yeah, and it will depend on the person and their support structures and the the differences. So we don't have any other information from June, but she's talked about moving from a city, if she's moved from living in the center of London to living on an island off the coast of Scotland. That's that's a really big change. But she's actually said of happy to leave the city we were living in. She might have moved from London to Manchester.
So we don't know, but there are differences in the circumstances, but it's still change. And any one of those things, starting a new job Because so many factors, you have to learn what you're doing. You have to learn all the the protocols in your new place. You have to get to know the people. It can be good, but it's never gonna be, you know, just a walk in the park. And a new relationship is always gonna have challenges. So it's not a surprise, but these are all good things.
So to me, I would just say to June, let it be. It's okay. If you find yourself in the grumpy phase, know that that will end, and think of the good things. Know that you're safe and you'll get there.
obviously we, this, this is all the information we've got. We dunno who June is and there could be other stuff going on. it could be that there is some predisposition to anxiety or some sort of mood disorder potentially. Cuz people have those things and if, if people do and then they make some changes, that's gonna exaggerate even more the body's emotional responses. There'll be a feedback system in the body that says, I'm really not sure about any of this.
But of course our cognition, our intellect, kicks in and says, this is good, this is fun, this is safe, this is lovely. And then your body says, oh, I'm not used to this. I'm not used to this. We dunno what's going on. Everybody's different and that's okay. And if you get to know yourself well. Then you can accept your feelings for what they are. Your body's telling you something. Have a listen to it, and if you need to tell it don't worry. All is good. Everything's gonna be fine. We got this.
You'll be all right.
Actually, there's a point there. I was looking at something earlier about interpreting of bodily sensations. There could be something here, and obviously I don't know, but there could be something that June is likely to be feeling quite a lot of excitement with a new home, a new partner, a new job. I wonder if there might be times when June is interpreting excitement as anxiety. because it's easy to do
Especially if the anxiety is always dominated.
Yeah. Oh, there will have been some, anxiety. But as things move forward, maybe it sort of shifts or could shift more into excitement. If you think of a queue for a rollercoaster, you'll have people in that queue divided into two. Well, maybe three cuz some will be so blase that they're not really feeling anything. But most people will be feeling the same physical sensations and some will say, oh, I'm so scared. And others will say, oh, I'm so excited.
But what's going on inside the body is exactly the same.
Yeah. It's the cognitive interpretation of those sensations. It's worth bearing that in mind, it really is. Cuz whatever change somebody makes, I mean what June is talking about there. Like you say, they're, they're big changes. You know, moving house, starting a relationship, new job, and all those other changes that go on inside all of that. Where do I get my lunch? How does this computer system work? What's your name again? What's the name of the receptionist? Who do I speak to about pencils?
It's huge every single day. Yeah, it takes a long time for that change to no longer be a change to become routine and the brain's gotta catch up. And like we say, some people can embrace all of these changes because change is exciting to them. Like me talking, talking about moving house and things like that there. And I said to my wife recently, If it wasn't for stump duty, I'd move house every two years. I think it's great fun. I've got a friend of mine who works in a solicitor's.
It's not fun for her. It's really stressful and is for all the people that get involved. And maybe last time I moved house, it was stressful for my wife. Maybe slightly stressful for me, but I enjoyed the process cuz I thrive on it cuz I'm a bit weird. Or maybe I've just had too much therapy. That anything to do with adrenaline is fantastic. Hey, I'm an exhibitionist. I'm an I'm a extrovert. I run an AmDram theater company. I'd get practically naked on stage for fun. Not completely.
I've been there in my boxer shorts. That's the closest I've ever got. And to be fair, that's all you wanna see anyway, and I love it. I'm in my element, and that's somebody's idea of absolute hell. Yet I love it. But when I over prepare for a, theater production, or I over prepare for a conference presentation, and I do, I do over-rehearse to make sure it goes well, that is done with an element of pain, with an element of anxiety. But when I'm not there, I'm still feeling those anxious feelings.
But I love it. I love that feeling. I'm not that weird am I?
No, of course you're not. Again, everybody's different. I'm not a particularly big fan of Typing, you know, personality typing and so on. Cuz on the extrovert, introvert scale, I, I tend to come somewhere in the middle and for me, it's very context dependent. Somebody that we work with, who's very big on these things, has, used Myers-Briggs in work roles and so on, is very, very, very keen on it.
Was really surprised when I said that I come out sort of 60 40 it would be 60% introvert, 40% extrovert, and he was absolutely amazed because he thought I was a pure extrovert. But that's because, that's because the places where he sees me, that's when that's highest. you know, I've got a couple of weeks coming up. I've got a holiday and taking the kids skiing as in they are skiing and I'm going to read books and go swimming.
And I don't want to catch Covid or anything else before, so I'm going to pretty much isolate for a couple weeks before I go. I can do that. I can do all my work. It feels absolutely lovely in, in my heart that I've got two weeks where I'm just hardly seeing anybody. And then, and then I'll be going skiing with the kids and it'll all be playing games and going out for meals. I mean, yeah, having fun. So it's very variable. So no coming back to it. No, you are just, you Richard.
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm not gonna pathologize me. I mean, there's probably psychiatrists and clinical psychologists that would, I'm sure I score high for quite a few, neurodivergent labels. But that's just me being me.
I, I really do think that most, most people could score highly on something that's,
enough of them,
yeah. I mean, maybe they would judge me for enjoying the idea of two weeks of quiet.
because that would be avoidant introvert disorder. No, you just wanna do some
I'm just, I'm just happy to do it that way. So, yes, we're, we are all different and and June is too,
Yeah. And anybody listening who's making some changes, recognize that you are you and you're gonna feel what you feel.
There was something else that sprung to mind when I was just thinking about June then, and I think we've talked about it before when we did an episode on choices about when you make a choice, you are by default missing out on something of the bit that you didn't choose. So I think it is worth bearing in mind that for June, okay, she's happy to leave the city, but she will be missing something. There is something that's that she'll be sad to have left, almost certainly.
The job, two horrible jobs. But there's likely to be something, maybe friends maybe something about the structure of it. There's something about the jobs that she'll be sad to lose and, well, we can't really comment on the relationship cause all we know is that it's a new one. So it's helpful to remember that when you make a change, you are losing something from the old pattern.
Our brain and our body is going to have a sense of loss about the past. And whenever we lose something, our unconscious mind tries to look for it and tries to find it. And that can create these feelings, whether it is, where do I go for lunch now because things are different? How do I get to work? Do I have to get up at a different time? Maybe you've gotta get up 20 minutes earlier and your brain says, it's not time yet. This isn't what I normally do. Who knows.
But the ultimate answer to all of this is the brain doesn't like change. That's okay. Be okay with the fact that your brain doesn't like change, and for it to learn that the new life. The new environment is safe, after all. You gotta live it. You gotta live it every day. Are there ways of speeding up the process so that the new norm feels normal?
Are you asking me
Yeah.
yes. Yes, there are Richard. I am not au fait with the science around this, but I do understand that when we have patterns of behavior ritualistic behavior. We create neural pathways in the brain that, we by default go down. So for very many people, they'll have a neural pathway that says, I've just woken up. Let's put the kettle on. I want a cup of tea or coffee. So different neural pathway, but most people will do one or the other. They'll have a neural pathway of it's time for bed.
I'll go and clean my teeth. These are ones that are not problems of course, and an awful lot of the neural pathways we have in our minds are not problems, but when they become problems that's when, yeah, some help is needed to change them. I've got a couple of analogies.
I think you've got one you said you use particularly, but there's, there's one that I use, which is the idea that if you were living in a little cottage in the woods and you worked on a farm at the other side of the woods every single day you'd walk from one side of the woods to the other. You'd gradually create a path and you'd stick to that path because every day it gets clearer and clearer and clearer, and so it just becomes the way that you get to work. That's a neural pathway.
Yeah, and that's exactly what the brain is doing. But instead of it being a path, it's neurons and the axons of those neurons and the myelin sheath that's around it, which is a dielectric material that means the electricity can flow better. I've often wondered if, if hypnosis helps myelinate those neurons, makes the electricity flow a little bit better. We do know from some studies that positive emotions do. Being focused, really enjoying something makes a skill seem to stick far, far quicker.
I mean ridiculously quicker. A thousand percent quicker because you're doing something you enjoy and the the path just gets made. It's like you're running down that path and, and treading on all the detritus. Until it becomes manageable. And the, the analogy I use is a, is pretty much exactly the same as that. But it's a cornfield. you wanna get from A to B, you go in a straight line, A to B through the corn. It's hard work, but eventually you've got a path.
Now, using your analogy there with this, building, if the building moves, you gotta go down that path that you've already made because that's the only path we've got. And then you make a new path from the old path to where the, the new building is now. It would've been, as the crow flies a lot quicker to go in a straight line from where you started to the new house. But no, you can't, there's too many things in the way.
So you gotta go down the old path and you still get there quicker than if you would plowing your way through the forest or through the cornfield or whatever, through the, the gray and white matter of the brain. So your brain says, but these are the neurons I activate. And it sends you down the old path. Sometimes we've gotta force ourself onto making a new path, and that takes effort and persistence.
I don't understand the science bit that you just said, but I don't particularly feel I need to, because to me,
Hmm.
yes, I completely agree that hypnosis really does help, but I don't know why. I Think part of it to me is that you can do something in your imagination almost as well as if you're doing it in reality. I'll come onto that in a sec, but, let's take a habit that you have that you might want to change. We talked about chocolate, didn't we? A couple of episodes ago. So if your default your pathway is after a meal to go to the drawer in the kitchen where chocolates are kept, if you view that.
As a path through the forest, a path through the cornfield that is always taken. Well, then you think, okay, so I'm going to take a different path today the destination is going to be different, so what's that destination and how am I going to get there? And then do it.
In that sort of circumstance when it comes to unhealthy snacks and things, if you want to cut down on those, if you've got some bad habits. Because you know, healthy people do eat chocolate. They just don't have it after every meal. That it, it's very rarely necessary, is it? But then you swap it for a drink of water. You create a new habit because a brain doesn't like a hole. There's something missing. We used to find that with smokers when people used to smoke. That's literally a dying habit.
There's not so much of that about anymore. But that's a big hole in somebody's life. When somebody makes a change like that. If somebody was smoking 20 times a day, 10 drags on a fag 200 times a day, they're putting a something to their lips and going 200 times a day. You stop doing that. That's a hole. And that's the reason why so many smokers would then start biting the nails or they'd feel that there's something missing. What's missing?
Then they'd go into the biscuit cupboard, wouldn't they at work. If have a hole, you need to fill it with something. Now, that could be a drink of water. It could be some deep breathing exercises for two minutes. It could be that you go for a walk around the office or you go into the garden and stretch. Could be you just go for a wee. It could be you check your Instagram feed and then put your phone back in the drawer, but you need to do something.
Otherwise, there is a hole and out of habit, your brain will send you down that pathway again. And you might not want that.
I haven't seen a smoker for a couple of years now, but when I did, I used to talk about this and say exactly this, that you, You don't have to replace a habit, but it can be a good idea and why not replace it with what it was intended to do in the first place, which was to make you feel good and breathe. Cuz that's one thing that smokers do is they breathe it in so they breathe. Take the time, relax, breathe, and feel good.
Yeah.
But then of course there's the other side, which is the wanting to do something that you hadn't been doing so you can create a new neural pathway. That brings me to an idea which is can be linked into hypnosis, which was research had found that in order to set a habit, you need to replicate the behavior 66 times. So if your behavior that you want to do is go to the gym and you decide to go to the gym four times a week.
I've chosen a wrong number here because I can't divide 66 by four, but just go along with it. It doesn't really matter. You can work that out using a calculator or a spreadsheet. You know how many weeks you'll need to go to the gym. for it to become a habit. If it's something that you can do on a more regular basis. Such as, let's say it was somebody who doesn't drink very much water and they decide that they want drinking water a specific part of their day.
You could have three glasses of water easily in a day, and that] would fit. So you would then, 66 divided by three is 22. You could get the 66 done in 22 days.
Hmm.
I've actually, I've got a spreadsheet that it's not exactly difficult to create cuz you have 66 boxes and you write at the top what the habit is and then you tick them off as you do them. I don't think you would need to do it with the examples that I've given. Now obviously with those examples, you, you want the benefit of the uh, the gym and the drinking the water. So doing 66 in reality is, is a good thing.
But to set the habit, you could always imagine doing them using hypnosis and then the habit is set more easily. But perhaps you decide that you want to to work rather than walk to work. if you do perhaps a third or a half of those 66 in your imagination of going into a a little hypnotic trance and going through that whole process of getting the appropriate attire on before you go out and getting yourself ready.
And the bike, if that's what you're doing, getting it all ready and going through the process and arriving at work and everything, fine. That will help set the habit more quickly than just doing it, and therefore get over some of those hurdles of the voice in your head saying, oh, it's raining today. You could just, you could get the car today, couldn't you? So just help yourself to speed up the habit.
Yeah. Oh, it and it, and it does. You used the word hypnosis, put yourself into a, a sort of hypnotic trance and have a little daydream. That's a lot easier than people think. Don't think that you need to go and necessarily see a hypnotherapist to learn how to do it. I think you could benefit from that because then you'd learn, oh, this is relatively easy to do. But when you're learning, it is easy if somebody's talking you through it, I must admit, but sometimes it is just as simple.
Hopefully, I. Assuming it's simple, just cause I've been a hypnotherapist for 20 years, but it can just be as simple as closing your eyes and just softening your body, getting yourself into a comfortable position. And just letting the rest of the world outside just disappear a little bit and go into your imagination. It can be as simple as that. And then using your imagination in whatever way you use it.
Cuz some people, it's not always about the way things look, it's about the way things feel or another sort of sense. Just get an idea of what it's like to do the new behavior. At night is a good time to do this because then you can sleep on it. and one of the things we do know about learning is that sleep is really important for it. Don't think that just having a daydream and then immediately afterwards you've got this new skill.
No, your brain will go over all the things that you've thought about during the day, especially if it was things that you were particularly focused on. And whatever you do in that focused state of hypnosis or daydreaming or meditation or whatever you want to call it, those are the neurons that your brain is gonna activate whilst you sleep. It's no surprise. When the things that go on during the day leak over into our dreams at night. It's because that's what the brain does.
If you wake somebody up in the middle of a dream and ask them what they're dreaming about, it's usually something boring about what went on during the day. They don't remember that you woke them up, but they just close their eyes and go back to sleep again. But all these sleep studies show that most dreams are just the boring stuff that went on during the day because that's what we were doing.
Whatever you are daydreaming about hypnotically or otherwise, your brain will go over those whilst you sleep. Let it. Have a little daydream before you fall asleep about the new behavior. I did that when I was learning the guitar. and found it much easier then the next day to start playing certain chords, I thought, oh, my fingers just knew what to do. No, they didn't. It's my brain. My brain is telling my fingers what to do.
It's the neurons, the neural pathways that's telling my fingers what to do. But it's outside of conscious awareness and that's cuz I had a little daydream about it before I fell asleep and then my brain slept on it, locked it in, started creating a new path.
Actually that's a really good example of the 66 habit idea for doing something like learning an instrument is, is do it in your mind. Yeah.
Excellent stuff. Well, I hope we've been uh, educational and entertaining for you all today. There's always something to take away from any of
Well, I hope so.
or even I learned something new or reinforce I'd knowledge forgotten about every time I talk to you.
yeah. Me too. Me too. Yes. I hope it's, I hope it's something
Oh, we're definitely providing something. Even if it is a quizzical look on somebody's face that goes, who are these two? Who are they? Well, you know who we are cuz you're a favorite listener, whoever you are.
So, If you've got a question and you'd like to fire it at us, there's a link in the description to a form on a website where you can submit some questions, tell us what you think, tell us what's on your mind, and we'll have a natter about it on here at some point in the next couple of weeks, I'm quite sure. Okay,
Good. Good.
Let's go. See you next time. Bye.