Hey folks. Welcome aboard. It's the Therapy Natters Train. Choo Choo. We're off to Happy town if you'd like to join us for the ride But if you'd like us to drop you off at, what the heck is this guy going on about city? You probably wouldn't be alone. I'm psychotherapist, Richard Nicholls, and I'm clearly in a funny mood today. Sorry about that everybody. Did I show too much of my real self there for a moment.
Well, you quite often make me giggle at the start of these, but not quite as much as that one. I, yes. I never know what's gonna come out of your mouth, but Well, okay. Let's be on this happy train then.
Yeah. I am in a funny mood because for listeners that are in the uk, we record this sort of 10 days in advance. Takes about 10 days to play with it and before it eventually goes out. Today it's the snowiest day of the year. It's a snow day. Everybody's having a snow day today. Actually snow days don't really exist anymore. My, my son hasn't had to go into college today, but he is still gotta do his work cause he's just on Teams. And I remember him saying to me last week when this was predicted.
There's gonna be one thing that my children won't understand the concept of. I said, what's that? And he went, snow days. The idea of, Hey we haven't gotta go to school today. It's a snow day. Brilliant. We can just mess about and play. Yeah. The next generation, they're gonna go, what the heck is a snow day? Just a day where it's snowing. And? That's no different to any other day, surely. For school.
We didn't have them when I was at school. You just went to school.
You must have had a snow day when the school was
I remember one when we, left early, but we still had to get back the next day. Oh. It was tough when we were young.
You sounded really Yorkshire then, considering your
well was sort of like the, Monty Python sketch. That was what I was aiming for.
Hey, we've got another guest. Haven't we?
We do. Shall I introduce our guest? Yes, I will. We have with us Ludwig Esser. You might guess from his name. He's originally from Germany, but now lives in Swansea. Has done for quite a long time. He's a psychotherapist specializes in working with cancer patients. But not only that, but also what we're going to talk about, particularly today. He has a special interest in nature. So, hello Ludwig. Lovely to have you with us.
Good morning, you too. And also good morning to your listeners. Guten Morgan.
Thank you very much for guten morgan. Very good. Very good. I was wondering something. I asked, this was going back to when I was 15 and I did an extra foreign studies lesson outside of extracurricular thing. It was outside of school, actually. It was a Spanish lesson, and I asked the Spanish teacher. She was Spanish and she'd be living in England for something like 20 years. And I said, Do you? Do you know what language you dream in?
I was always, even at 15, I was a bit weird and interested in what goes on inside people's heads and she said, oh, I try not to dream. And she changed the subject. I'm like, no, I'm genuinely interested. I wasn't just being a bit weird. Oh, well, but Ludwig, do you remember your dreams and do they mix up the languages?
Well actually dreams was, what brought me here into this country, uh, through my own therapy, and my first therapist was a Jungian analyst and we only worked with dreams, and I noticed that I could speak English so much better than in real life when I was dreaming. And there were other things, and at one point he said, Ludwig have a look at your dreams. There is a thread going through it, and that's anything English or British. In Germany, we don't say British. It's all English.
Even if you're mentioning Wales. It's that the English language, the places you dream of, the people you interact with. It's all English. And look where you have ended up in all your journeys in Germany, uh, and the most English town in Germany, which was Hamburg. And since then I've been dreaming in English. But not all the time. Sometimes I dream in English, sometimes I dream in German. I can't control that. It's the nature of dreams.
I've always been fascinated, obviously, in what goes on inside people's minds especially when they're asleep and everything's outside of conscious awareness. They've just gotta let things happen. And a bit like today, having a a snow day, we've just gotta let it, we've just gotta let it happen. These things are outside of our control. We've just gotta watch it come down and enjoy it. Tempting as it is to look at it and complain and go, well, this means I can't.
And then you find reasons to be angry about it. And I don't remember doing that when I was eight, watching the snow come down and the magic of it. To wake up in the morning and the bedroom is just a slightly different color. It's, it's shaded differently. The brightness levels are wrong, and your brain goes. Something's different. And then you realize it's snowing
I, I did have that experience just this morning in that I've got a skylight above my bed and I woke up and it's, that's snow, but it's all gone now. So, yeah, so I'm very sad now cuz I don't have any, cuz I still have that childlike view of snow.
Yeah,
I'll send you a photo because we had snow two days ago. Uh, Same thing. I woke up in the morning. The light was different. I looked out, and it's the first time for years here in this place that we had snow a few miles further down the road it had been snowing in the beast from the east, they were blocked, really blocked the roads. We hardly had anything here. And as I said, it's incredible. It's white. I haven't seen this for years here.
And so there was no point of going back to bed I had to get out, take photos, and it was really that childlike joy that you described. Richard. This is like, like when I was young, let's go out, let's play.
Yeah.
that's always been, well, maybe not always, I'm exaggerating here, but it, it's, it's certainly of late been quite an interest of yours, hasn't it? The idea that people can just go out and enjoy what's going on out there.
Yep.
When did you start incorporating that into your therapy sessions? Because you started actually taking some of your clients outside with you. Was that cause of Covid though?
Now it took a while and it started very early when I was still in my training as a counselor while living in Swindon at the time. And it was with Westminster Pastoral Counseling, or forgot the name and
Westminster Pastoral
Yeah. Pastoral foundation. Yeah. And they did a review after my certificate with the pastoral supervisor. And she said, what do you really want to do in life with, with your therapy, and how do you want to do this? And I explained to her, ideally, I'd like to take people out because nature was basically my savior. It kept me sane in very difficult times. Oh, she said. Don't keep going with us. Stop it here, right.
With a certificate and find a modality that allows you to do that because you get in trouble with us when you do this and we, we do counseling. We don't go out into nature. The therapy room is a safe container, nothing else counts. If you go outside, we kick you out.
Because it breaks confidentiality? Cuz you're seen with your client.
it's, it's a number of things. I mean, confidentiality is one thing. if I walk in places here with my wife, I come across clients. And we have got the usual rule. If, if I won't make the first move, if you come towards me, be aware I may not be alone. Same applies to them. They may not be alone. Some clients really don't notice me or pretend not to notice. Some come straight towards me. It's fine by me, it's all cleared.
But if I were with a client outside and another one comes up and says, Hello, Ludwig. Is that a client, is that your wife? I know your wife. She looks different. Is that your lover? Is that, you know, it, it brings up all kind of complications and then if I were with a poor client, they might think, oh my god, you know, I wish I were not seen. Or they might even know the person. They are meeting there. It's not known that they're in therapy with me. It's, it's a, it's a minefield.
And this needs to be clarified very, very clearly beforehand. The other thing is the same container of the therapy room is very, very valuable. It may be the only place where a client feels safe for whatever reason. If I then would say so we have done two sessions here. Now. We go outside. They might freak out. Because outside may bring up issues that they need to work through. If they have been, for example, assaulted in a park and they'll say, oh, let's, let's go into nature.
It's a nice park around here. I mean, this would be an absolute no-go. because we don't know that beforehand I would always start in the therapy room. And, uh, it, it makes then sense, particularly if it's a talking therapy, like counseling that really restricts itself to talking and exploring just with words, with no other interventions like we have with hypnosis or nlp.
Then this is an absolute must unless the counselor has done some additional training and knows what they're doing when they go outside. And when Pauline told me, don't pursue this path. See that you find a modality that allows you I was searching for quite a while. Until I found the National College and I realized there is the potential that I can go outside, but it took me then sometime to do this.
And finally, I did some training because I thought I need to know more actually what's involved legally, what's involved also therapeutically. But I, until then, I'd experimented with myself. I'd come across some books which influenced me deeply. And I thought, well, as I had a intimate relationship to nature. Anyway let's find out what happens if.
And. I started little bits and pieces with the work with cancer patients because the setting we had in that charity when I was volunteering, they had a stream running through their premises. They had meadow, it's quite rural and god when the weather was really, really nice sitting inside a stuffy conservatory, I thought, come on, let's take the chairs outside.
And then did some mindfulness exercises, which at the time, because I hadn't done any training in mindfulness, I still could call Awareness, following Fritz Perls which I trained in. I was allowed to do that. And it made a huge difference to them. You know, the, the ability to switch off their minds just by focusing on sounds or on sights. Sounds were particularly good. And bringing in this non-judgmental approach. I mean, we judge often nature, even if it's in a positive way.
Oh, this is beautiful. Is it? That's my perception. Somebody else might not think so. And nature itself. It is. It's neither, beautiful nor ugly. Like weather.
Yeah. I remember it was a year or so ago, you, you presented to a group of therapists for um, half a day I think it was. About nature. And beforehand you'd said, Hey, everybody that's coming on this little event tomorrow, I want you to go outside. Just spend, I forget what you said. Something like, just spend two minutes, maybe, something like that. Just close your eyes and see what's going on, and write down some of the things that you've experienced. And what I remember was a pigeon.
What it was was just a pigeon on top of a telegraph pole, just cooing away. Coo coo. Two days before that. Me and my wife were shouting at that pigeon cuz it was annoying us because it was like a repetitive alarm clock that was just getting on your nerves. It's like, shut up cooing. Goodness sake. So I went out into my courtyard, this little garden area that I've got and just listened and it took the judgment away. When I closed my eyes and just listened to what it actually was.
Which was just a, just a creature. It was just a, a pigeon a, on a, telephone pole. Wasn't doing any harm. It was just being a pigeon. I was able to listen to what it was, rather than be angry at what it was,
Hmm. Yeah.
That simple. Two minutes. Might not even have been that. That's made a significant difference over the last 12 months about how annoyed I get at that pigeon because I don't, I just accept it. Thank you for that, Ludwig.
Well, I would suggest your, your listener who asks, have you got anything I can do? that would be my, my go to exercise. and we don't have to go out into nature for that. You can just open the window
Yeah. Quite simply just got an email in from um, patron Julie who said, Hi Richard. I just wanted to thank you for what you've been doing and tell you how much I'm enjoying the Therapy Natters show. If you have any tips on activities to incorporate into my life to boost my wellbeing each day, that would be great. Julie. And I thought, Hmm, that works quite well into, into Ludwig. I mean, I, I did write a book actually called 15 Minutes to Happiness, which is full of those sorts of tips.
Little things you can do in 15 minutes hey it's available in all good bookshops, probably some bad ones as well. It's even available in those
have a second edition and take this into it as well.
Yes.
Yeah. Uh, what what is really essential when you do this exercise is that you listen without any judgment, as you said. It is. Not even It is a pigeon. Because that's already our human mind interfering with a direct experience. when we do this we put a wall between us and what we want to experience by labeling it. And that's not different than labeling somebody as being crazy or being kind. That's our human understanding of it. And in, let's say in pigeon terms, that's completely irrelevant.
So when we want to get away from this self occupation, It's best to open up to something that just is. And sounds are fantastic for it because we can't influence them easily unless you play guitar or an instrument. But anything, even sounds that people make, let's say some people arguing in next door's garden. Yeah, that's just two bipeds making sounds. And leave away the bipeds. It's just sounds. And there's a pigeon sound and there is other sounds.
When we do this, always moving away the judgment, the labeling, we can come to a sense of profound peace on that. Basically a first aid band aid in troubled times. That's how I usually start my sessions outdoors. That we have a moment when we just connect with what is around us.
How wonderful.
You mentioned about your cancer patients. Are there other issues that people bring to therapy that lend themselves particularly well to nature therapy? or perhaps even the opposite. Anything that doesn't.
Depends a bit on what we do outside. I have got one client who actually can't sit in a room. For a room is not a safe container, and who immediately relaxes when he's outside. So for people who are like this who feel too enclosed whose minds is too busy on. Whatever goes on in them, where their mind just races, I notice that they immediately slow down when they get out of the car in the car park and step into the woods. When we do this, it is as if a weight is shed. If we go deeper.
For example, if somebody doesn't know which direction to take in life, then I found nature very useful. Because we can work with metaphors that nature directly presents. I work in a, in a nature reserve. That means it is not neat, it's not tidy, it's messy like life can be. It's in parts, really, really mucky. You, you have got to wear wellies there even in summer. And depending on what the client brings they can explore what nature offers and say, Yeah, I can relate to this.
I had a client who walked with me through a long stretch of mud and it was really squelching and you know, sometimes the way he got stuck in, in the mud and he said, Ludwig you know what? This is how my life is at the moment. I can't even lift a foot before the other one. Because I'm so stuck, you know, something holds me back. And then we have got a much different approach and suddenly it's the client seeing their situation from a different perspective.
They're not stuck in the usual way of thinking and experiencing themselves, but they can see it from outside, through the eyes of nature. What often happens is trees that have been damaged by storm or lightning, Oh, it's still alive. Maybe I can keep going. Even if life is very hard at the moment. You know, if a limb has been ripped off, like, let's say in a separation, I still can keep going. It's still green. So working with metaphors is one way where we can tackle quite a number of elements.
But I found loss, death.
was gonna say that. Grief bereavement.
Grief, bereavement anger. Particularly uh, this, this not knowing where to go, what to do. This is where working with nature can provide a non-rational, non-logical approach that is nevertheless still very alive. It's almost like dream work, but you are fully aware. One way of doing it you need to formulate at first the question. What do you really want to know right now? Connect with nature, and then the client goes on their own, perhaps with me in a safe distance but so that I can't interfere.
And they go for a, for a quest. Sometimes they want to walk completely alone through the undergrowth and find what attracts them in connection with their question. And then pick up little bits and pieces that symbolize that. Always take matter. Don't take any way anything that is alive. And then they come back and then they have quite a number of things. A stone or branch or some fruit or some nuts or whatever it is, or bird feather. And with the help of that, they tell the story.
And suddenly that story is, it is like dreamwork. The symbols that they have collected represent some inner reality, and with that, they suddenly say, oh now it clicks. It's not that that this walk, we end up and say, now I know. It's usually that through working with these issues, it, it kind of loosens the mind away from yeah, let's say I, I, I would like to become a professional musician, but I can't even read sheet music. And I've always been bad.
And, you know, this rumination about one's own failures. That is completely brushed aside because we find a feather or we find a stone that looked perhaps like a plectrum. Things like that. It's, it's an inner process that suddenly something comes to the surface that has been hidden and is kind of loosened up by what nature offers.
Right. So the, the experience of being out in nature can so often unlock a little bit like hypnosis does or meditation can do. Or for some it might be a tarot deck. I've met plenty of therapists who work with tarot, and it sounds like it's in similar ways that somebody can be open and receptive to what's really going on for them. And then they see guidance when they look for it.
But if they don't look for it, they don't see it, and then they carry on being stuck and nature can provide that environment to make it easier than a tarot deck might. Make it easier for some than free association in a therapy room.
Hmm. Yeah, I would agree. Provided the client is encouraged and is willing to take on the challenge of nature,
Hmm.
I did experience it when, in the year 2000, I was still living in Germany and did a kind of walk in Northern Scotland in the middle of winter. And I was wonderful. I loved it and I thought, yeah, nature. This is the direct journey I need to go. And I was a landscape architect by the time, so it was already quite close. And at one point I was aware that I was supposed to lie flat on the ground in the middle of the path.
Okay,
I thought that's a bit weird. What if somebody comes? And why at all? It's freezing. It's icy. Why? Why should I get cold? Why should I do this? And it was this awareness. My body is drawn to the surface of this path, so I've got to do it. And in the moment I touched my forehead on the ground on this icy patch, I had a kind of daydream or vision. Where I suddenly knew I need to pursue this. And I also need to leave Germany.
I resisted massively for a few months because that was not on the cards, but I realized actually this was an inner truth that had been growing for years and I'd always been denying it. So it was not that nature says you need to leave Germany. It had been coming for, for quite some time. It was the last kick that then I couldn't deny any longer.
Mm-hmm. because you were connecting to something that was bigger than yourself. That's what I see there. And it allowed you to, to override the person you thought you should be, and allowed yourself permission to examine who you wanted to be. All because you lay on your belly and put your head on the floor in an icy cold, Scottish path.
I presume nobody did come along.
Oh, is very, very lonely
that that would've been very difficult to explain. And they'd have thought you were dead and that would've been awkward.
Richard, coming back to what you said, this is spot on and I would like to add something in the moment when we work with nature, I mean the whole time we have been speaking as if nature is somewhere out there, but it isn't. We are a part of nature as the pigeon is. Or the barking dog or the tree. And if we look at it from that point, my laying down was nature lying down an element of itself onto another element of itself.
And with that, making a connection that hitherto hadn't happened, and allowing then something to come through that was already there, but only with this action could come to the surface. So it was, not tapping into something bigger than me, but I was acting out the part of nature that is part of something bigger,
Hmm.
If that makes sense.
Oh, it does. Yeah, absolutely. Make those experiences happen. Open a window, use your senses. you say, Ludwig, that in your experience, it's the sounds that make the biggest difference more than the way things look or the way things smell. Cause obviously there's so much about nature,
Yeah. Smells are a bit outside of that category because smells are processed in a different part of the brain. They're processed in a reptilian brain and that you can't help experience an emotion with that. You know, if it brings back, for example, for me, the, the smell of a certain type of coffee and burning gas, and I'm immediately back at my grandmother's. I can't help it, it's just there. And that can help me certainly when we are out in in the wood or, you know, fresh cut grass.
So smells are certainly part of it.
There's also a bit of a problem, I'd say, with, with smells if, if somebody's in an urban environment, which might have green spaces or trees planted along the, the street even, or window boxes because the smells are going to be impacted by traffic fumes, et cetera, et cetera.
But it works even subliminally. I've seen that when I was studying in Berlin. Berlin has a lot of Linden trees you know, perhaps in East Berlin. Unter den Linden.
Unter den Linden. Yes, I know of that.
avenue. And so Linden trees are one of the predominant trees in the streets of Berlin. And Berlin is very green. When the Linden flowers, it's a very sweet, very beautiful scent. The moment, that they started flowering. The mood of people changed. Berliners are usually a bit grumpy, very direct. When the Linden flowers, everybody was like like they drunk something. Happy, jolly, making jokes. Not being angry at the dogs crapping on the, on the pavement.
It's, which is a problem there, it was just a different mood. Lasted about a fortnight. And then we were back to the old grumpiness and it's all because of the smell.
Wow.
Fascinating.
Yeah. Hearing. Our sense of hearing is by far more differentiated than our eyes and it's our western culture that is so seeing focused. When you go into other cultures, it's more hearing, I dunno whether you have worked with blind clients with people who are hard of hearing. The psychological problems of people who can't hear are far bigger than the ones that can't see.
That's true. Yeah. I found that.
So the sense of hearing let's say, offers us much, much more richness than the sense of seeing
have you read much scientific research into all of this? Is this all backed up that says It's official. Spending more time in nature is better for you than standing by a noisy road. I mean, it makes
Yeah, it is researching. And I'm at the moment just reading a wonderful book. And I say wonderful because it's easy to read and very well referenced. Places of The Heart. It's about the psycho geography of everyday life. It's more relating to towns, but they have done experiments. What happens in the brain when you're exposed to sites of nature. And there's definitely a change. I mean that book goes into what happens actually, precisely when.
One of the persons who discovered it very early was a surgeon called Urich in America. He had noticed that people he had operated on recovered quicker when they had a view out of their ward window into nature. Compared with the ones who didn't. And at first thought it was by chance. And he observed it over a longer period and found out actually they do recover quicker. And that's how the research into the effects of nature in healing processes started. I mean, physically healing of the body.
Mm-hmm.
And there is quite a lot of research around on the effects of nature. Even going into do the trees, for example, exude something that makes you feel good. And there's a forester in Germany has become quite famous recently. The Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Wohlleben. And he describes that trees actually do exude certain chemicals that have an effect on moods. They don't do that for us. It's their way of communication, a part of their way of communication, but it has an effect on us.
I remember looking at some researching to exercise and, and it showed through little mood tests. You do a mood test, you go for a walk, you do another mood test, and it showed that going for a walk was, was beneficial. Even if whilst they were walking, they were ruminating on their problems. Which was interesting. It still had a positive effect cause they were moving. This was even if they were walking through a city.
But there was a marked improvement if they were walking around a park, it was way more beneficial. To walk around a park and ruminate, then it would be to walk along a main road and ruminate. They still got benefits cuz it was the movement or whatever it was. Maybe it was something else. Maybe it was society, being out in culture, feeling connected, whatever. But it was a, a much bigger improvement if they were walking around a park. It's wonderful.
it makes a lot of sense. I think there's also a factor of walking and the bilateral stimulation which is a little bit like emdr. Eye movement desensitization. Left and right. So ruminating whilst you're walking. Makes our rumination more efficient. and yeah, walking around a park. It's just ideal to me better than squelchy mud. Each, each to their own
you gotta do what's right for you, haven't you?
the Cyn part of me also says Part of a good walk is getting home again.
And having a hot chocolate
Having a hot, hot chocolate and getting warm. And putting your slippers on. Yeah,
Yeah, moving the limbs does actually make a difference. Try to walk with your hands in your pockets and compare to what happens if you move your arms as well. And because when you walk, your right arm goes forwards and your left foot. that rebalances, both brain halves. If we use only one, it's a right left, right, left. And that is an oscillation between right and left. With bringing the arm in we get a peak and a trough at the same time, and it becomes smooth.
that sounds wonderful.
Try
Ludvig. Thank you. Before we go, is there anything in particular you wanted to share that you haven't had a chance to tell us about that, that you thought I know what I wanted to tell them?
well, I would say go out as much as possible and, Ideally with a child like mind,
How lovely.
children don't have all these preconceptions. They just go for it. When they're allowed. And okay. I wouldn't suggest break off a stick and smash all the flowers alongside your path, which I love doing as a kid, which was not good. And I got in trouble for that. But that childlike innocence. To perceive the oneness that are around without immediately saying, oh, well, you know this, it's a fir tree. They're not supposed to be here because they're not indigenous. Leave all that away.
It's just experiencing the wonders from being outside, even if it's a little pocket park or the back garden.
Mm. Even if it's raining, doesn't matter. Put an umbrella up and listen to it. Banging on the material,
it's the wet kiss of Mother Nature Yeah. Feel it on your face. On your hands. Yeah. We are lucky in this country to have so much rain. I think a lot of other countries would love to swap with us.
Yeah. We do take it for granted and then complain about it when it's here.
Yeah. And then we complain if we're getting too hot.
I know. I'm so sorry, Ludwig. We are such a moaning culture. I mean, as I'm, there's a webpage behind you on my screen, which is talking about how the traffic is beginning to move. Finally, on the M 62 cause everybody's complaining about the snow and, and I see it melting on the roofs around me and it's a different, it looks different now than it did five minutes ago. And it's, it's lovely to see it. I wanna go out and appreciate it and just listen.
Cause I, it's the sounds, the world just sounds different when it snowed. It's got this blanket. I love it. Absolutely love it.
I'm taking the drip, drip off the melting snow.
Yep, that's, that's happening as we speak up there right now.
lovely.
Thanks ever so much for joining us today. It's been lovely for you to be able to come on and, and share your experiences and I hope all of our listeners can take something from this and as the spring approaches. I mean, it's supposed to be already here. Hey, here I am already starting to complain. Where's the spring? Like
only the 10th. 10th of is another, another 11 days till spring at the time of record.
Yes, yes. And then we'll put the clocks forward and and, and there's even more variety to experience. So I urge everybody to go out and do it and explore whether it's like you say, your garden or, somebody else's garden. Do ask for garden owner's permission before exploring, but get out there. I think that would be lovely. Well, we need to love them and leave them Ludwig because it's, it's getting late now, so let's leave them to it
Okay.
like I always say, If you've got some questions or some topic ideas to fire away at us, feel free. There's a link in the show notes to a page on a website where you could submit some questions or topic ideas, and we'll do our best to include what you suggest in the show. If you need anything, you know where to find us. I'm Richard Nicholls, and I'll say goodbye.
Goodbye.
And thank you, Ludvig. it's been great having this natter with you. Thank you.
Well, it was absolutely my pleasure. I really loved it.
Great.
Take care.
Bye.
Bye-bye.
Bye.