Greetings everybody. It's another Wednesday, another podcast episode from Richard and Fiona, two psychotherapists who press record and see what sort of mental health related stuff just comes out of us. This is the Therapy Natters podcast series and we've got another guest this week, haven't we? Fiona.
Yeah, so since we got to our 50th episode, we decided not to just natter on our own every week and sometimes have a guest. And today we have Danielle Lyons with us. I've known Danielle for over 20 years. I suspect you have at least close to that Richard.
Close to Yeah, we've been on plenty of training together in our youth.
Oh, well, Danielle and I some stories we could tell, but that's probably not for now., Anyway. Danielle works in Essex and is a hypnotherapist and counselor primarily. And I've always thought of you as being a specialist in physical health, but with the mental aspect, is that how you would describe yourself, Danielle?
Yes. I think when we first met, one of my big focuses was, around exercise and things to do with weight management and, eating behavior. And certainly some of the work that I've done has been focused around that. But in more recent years, it's. It's probably developed on from that in terms of other aspects of the body, and in particular of menopause.
Which is what we were thinking we would talk about today.
Absolutely.
as, as a man. Cuz last time I looked, that's how I identify. A lot of that is gonna be well over my head, and I'm only just gonna scratch the surface and pretend to understand a lot of stuff. And I think a lot of men need educating into this because we need to understand all of this. A lot of women will talk about it, but because of an element of whether it's patriarchy or, or just plain old sexism or body shaming or just female shaming, these conversations don't tend to happen.
This would be really, really useful.
There is more of a focus on it, lately, over the last, I'll say year or so, the various celebrities have started talking about it. But it is, remarkably strange. how little has been talked about it. And medics say that they don't really cover it in medical school. Again, I hope that's changing.
I think one of the really telling things is, the fact that the gps have a lack of education around menopause. And that's, that was quite frightening when I discovered that. I think it's around the 40% mark don't have mandatory training around menopause. so it's no wonder that men and women have no understanding in their daily life.
Which means 60% haven't got a clue unless they do extra work. And the only way that's gonna happen is if people go to their GP and say, this is my story. We don't hear these things about prostate issues. We don't hear this about anything to do with men, but we hear it about things like endometriosis. We're hearing about things like the menopause. Women just seem to get forgotten in all of this, and even by and anecdotally, this is a course.
I've had clients who say that even if their GP is a woman, will still say, just take a few deep breaths, learn to relax a little bit, and, and everything will be okay. No, there's, there's may, there's maybe more going on here. Well go away and see. Well, I have gone away to see, and it's been five years now, and I'm, I'm still in a bad place. Yeah, that needs to change. And that can only happen if women go to their GP to say, look, this is what's going on.
So women don't go to their gps. They often don't go to their GPs about the issues that they're having. and part of that is about them not understanding it. And then for those that do, many of the gps don't have the understanding. And often women will tell stories about how they've been sent away and told, no, you are too young to be experiencing symptoms of menopause.
You can have an early menopause, even as a teenager. I mean, that's, that's, that's not impossible. I think the average age to start the menopause is around 51 or something like that. Is it not Danielle,
So 51's the average age for menopause, but menopause is officially only one day. And it's the one day when a woman has not had a period for 12 months. So everything leading up to that is perimenopause and everything after that is postmenopause and perimenopause can last for up to 10 years. Much to the disappointment of my partner.
Well, yes. I mean, I squealed there when you said that one day. And I will disclose, but from my age you would expect it. I am post. But that's okay. So the peri, the round, that one day was a significant period of time. I couldn't tell you exactly because it's, it tends to have a gradual onset, doesn't it? And then a gradual decrease. But the, the, the peak of it was still for years
Yeah, there's, there's a belief that it can be up to 10 years of perimenopause or perimenopausal symptoms, before actually you hit that, that marker.
How would a woman know, okay, this isn't just me having a, a bad couple of months because my work is busy or I'm struggling to sleep and it must be because of this? Cuz we do tend to do that. We have symptoms in our body and we look for reasons to explain it. And we look at our surroundings often. How would somebody know This is what's going on for me, this is, this is perimenopausal symptom?
I think that's part of the problem that it can be really hard to tell because there are physical symptoms and psychological symptoms, and one of the difficulties is that If you ask most people about menopause, the first thing they say is, oh, hot flushes. And if people aren't experiencing hot flushes, they think they're not experiencing menopausal symptoms. but the reality is that there's so much more to it.
There are mood swings, there's lower libido, there's episodes of, of depression, higher anxiety. And as you say, Richard, you could put those down to, well, I live a busy life and things are just a bit tough at the moment, and that's why so many women end up being prescribed antidepressants or anti-anxiety medication as a misdiagnosis, rather than being recognized as the possibility that it could be menopausal.
and useful as that might be cuz that's tackling some of the symptoms. It's not getting at the cause of the symptoms, which we can say that about antidepressants for most of the time anyway, to a degree. But that really is exaggerated when the issue isn't depression, this isn't anxiety, it's causing anxiety. And it's causing me to feel depressed. But this isn't depression or anxiety.
again, I know this is anecdotal, it's just me, but I described, that part of it for me as. As if my whole being was a mosquito bite. Not my body, my being was a mosquito bite. Everything was irritated, horrible. And h r t worked. On a very low dose. So, you know, I did go to the gp, it was an ordinary GP appointment, and they gave me 30 minutes to discuss it. So I had a really successful outcome. so I just want to put the other side of that story.
It can be, but that was ages in before I actually did anything. And the hot flushes, it sounds innocuous, doesn't it? Ah, you feel a bit hot. Whoa. Ah, it's not innocuous.
Yeah, it, I, I've had clients as a hypnotherapist. women with hot flushes will often go to a hypnotherapist to go, can you teach my brain how to cool my body down, please? and we can, there are certain relaxation exercises that can help and there's certain visualization stuff that can help. It's not gonna cure it, those issues are still gonna be there. Yeah, they're likely to be able to not get quite so irritated by it.
I think if you've got some hot flushes, then the frustration about them obviously can make things worse. But when they describe it, this isn't, oh, my cheeks just got a bit pink and I felt a bit warm in bed. No, they, they were describing it as, As if they just run a marathon, their body's burning. Look at the sweat that's
And of course then there's the, the embarrassment that can be associated with that. If you're in, an important meeting, example, and that happens, it's likely to be misconstrued. So, Danielle, given that this is one of your areas of expertise and you work with the mind, what sorts of things do you do to help women?
So one of the, one of the big things that I've, I've learned to do is to use psychoeducation. Lots of women come to me, with issues around their mood, around, depression or anxiety, and maybe with lack of awareness that they could even be going through menopause.
And while I'm not in any way, qualified to diagnose it, and it is incredibly difficult to diagnose as well because doctors tend to do that through blood tests and, and it only shows up on a blood test very close to that, menopause moment. I can see the patterns of behavior and the patterns of experience that some people are having. So we will have conversations about menopause just from a psychoeducation perspective.
And then I will work with them around aspects to do with their mental health and that might be around working with their mood. And using some hypnotherapeutic techniques to help them to manage their mood. Like Richard was saying, teaching relaxation techniques as well to deal with anxiety, for example.
But also we end up doing some, I suppose, restorative work, around the fact that they are going through a transition, and what that means to them because there's also the aspect around almost a loss of youth. Changes in the body, not just that period stop, but that skin changes and hair changes and all sorts of other aspects that go along with it. So it's quite a holistic approach that needs to be taken from working with women.
It also sounds like there's a cultural thing. That could do with being addressed because I started losing my hair, for example, when I was in my mid twenties, it started to recede a little bit and by the time I was into my, late thirties, I was pretty much close to shaving my head because I had so little, what's the point? It hasn't really changed a lot in the last 10 years, just a little bit, but I. Yeah, screw it. I'll just shave the whole thing off. For a woman's body to change as she ages.
There's a lot more scrutiny. Criticism at the end of the day. It's part of the patriarchy and it's just men being a bit rubbish really. And we could do with stepping up to it and going, should we challenge this? Is it okay to have thin hair and you be a woman? Yes. It's okay cuz you're human. Oh, but you're not a perfect human. So you don't count. You don't count. And that is the message I think that gets subtly and sometimes not so subtly portrayed. You don't count, you don't matter anymore.
And I think there's a lot of embarrassment as well. Around the changes in the body, because maybe more so in this country, in our society, we're not very good about talking about our bodies. and especially women parts, you know, or women thinning hair on their head, but then getting facial hair and the embarrassment that comes with that. So they're often uncomfortable topics for people to talk about in public.
Again, there is some progress in that if you think about the acting world, for example, women can get good parts in plays and films after the age of 35 now,
It's better.
But they are still not the ones. Even though they might portray people who aren't perfect, they still need to look pretty damn perfect on the red carpet. I was thinking of, and I can't remember her name. You're gonna have to remind me, will Smith's wife who.
Jada, Jada Smith.
she has alopecia and then she was the subject of that joke, which led to the incident at the Oscars. but she's, she still looks exceptionally glamorous without her hair. There's, there's nobody in those positions who looks rubbish as a, as a woman in those situations.
Well, if they are, they don't show themselves, do they?
And they sort of praised, praised for, playing somebody who's not perfect in a film
Aren't they brave?? Aren't they How brave to, to show your ugly self. Urgh!
Yeah.
God. It's horrible. I remember it was, the comedian Ben Elton. This is years ago. It's probably 25, 30 years ago. Making this comment that if men had periods, there'd be completely different stories about them. People would just talk about them in the pub. Oh, I was playing cricket with some friends the other day. I went out to bat and what do you know? I had my period and it went everywhere. It was all down my leg and a state of my trousers. Oh yeah. That happened to me the other week.
That is how it would be if men had periods. He was right. But women aren't allowed to do that, they
really, good point. Would you agree with me, Danielle, that that is still the problems like, like Richard has, uh, hinted at more than hinted at, is still really taboo.
Yeah, and I think. I have some friends that we are much more open now about those conversations. We've had conversations about H R T or we've had conversations about the symptoms of menopause or even issues with periods that other friends still would not have those conversations. And if I go back a generation to my mom, she didn't talk about it. I didn't know about symptoms when she experienced menopause until I told her that I felt like I was having a nervous breakdown.
and that was two years after I'd had those, those symptoms and everything had settled down. I thought she'd just had hot flushes.
So many times I hear people say, just jokingly on social media, you know, maybe there's enough mental health awareness now, can we let it go? No, no, there's still not enough awareness of so many things. This month is stress awareness month, April, and there are so many things that contribute to that, and there has to be these awareness days, or awareness weeks and awareness months, because if we don't bring it into people's awareness, people don't have these conversations.
I think that's why we're so reliant on people advocating. So Diane Danzebrink has been massive in, in helping to change policies around menopause awareness and menopause education, trying to bring it into schools, trying to get policies written in workplaces so that people at work understand that women are still valuable when they're in their forties, fifties, sixties plus.
But that they need to have some understanding that there might be issues like brain fog that occurs that can be extremely frustrating when you are used to being an efficient, effective woman in the workplace and suddenly you can't remember your own name on some days, and I'm kind of joking, but it's not far from the truth. I can have a thought about something I need to do for work, step away from my desk, and within 30 seconds it's gone. It's out of my head. I've forgotten it.
unless I write it down. And so you asked earlier about working with clients and we look at coping strategies as well for managing things like that to help them. Just on a practical level.
So therapy isn't all about empathy, person-centered counseling, you know, Roger's core conditions. There's also no, let's look at some practical things here.
Yeah. And I think what's more empowering for clients is to, almost act as a facilitator for them coming up with their options. So I'll often work with clients using divergent thinking and being really creative around, well, what are all the possible options? And let's come up with the wildest and wackiest ones, because actually from that you might find something that really works. And that can be really effective.
I guess I put a little bit of a coaching hat on with that, but therapeutically it can be helpful when, when clients feel like they don't have a choice, they don't know, or they say they don't know what to do. Clients always know at the heart what to do.
well, it depends on their brain fog on the day, doesn't
For, any therapists listening, mixing coaching and therapy is a valid, thing to do, but you need to be qualified to do the coaching part. and also the client needs to know you're doing it.
Yes. Yeah.
critical.
Yeah, you make a joke of it. You, I, I, I, uh, I pretend to take off a hat. Let me just take off my whatever hat and put on this other hat, and I mine putting on a hat and makes 'em smile. And I go, right now, let's, let's look at this. So they, they understand what's going on.
You will both have heard me saying this, that therapists don't talk about what they are doing with their clients enough. so explain. uh, you know, it's generally not really considered to be the thing for a, a therapist to give advice, but I've just been wondering what do you think about such and such? But it's not for me to say, but what do you think? then you can go further into giving them choices and saying, not The fact I've said it doesn't mean you should do it or believe it.
I think it's one of the biggest challenges as a therapist not to give advice and, and I often end up sitting on my hands thinking I know what I would quite like to do, but as a therapist, it's not my choice. It would be me giving an answer that would suit me, and I would rather say to them, what are the options? What, what alternatives are there? Even if we talk about the things that you think might not work.
So for example, if we were talking about menopause, what would it be like to talk to your partner about this? Because some of what you're bringing are relationship issues because they don't understand that you are experiencing these symptoms. and then looking at how it might play out, even if the client then says That wouldn't work.
Yeah, we could use future pacing, can't we? Which
Yeah.
for those who don't know that, that would be a technique where we take the clients into the future and just get them to tell us what it's like and then they can try out different scenarios. Try out talking to the partner, try out not talking to the partner, try out going to this gp. All those sorts of things, you can try them out and see what happens.
Yeah, and the therapy room's, the safe space to do that.
Yeah.
I often talk about, a multiverse, where there is all these different options, different possibilities, and if, if you had the ability to step into, uh, a different universe where a different decision was made, let's, let's go and have a look That's not necessarily in, in hypnosis.
I mean, I, I do that just having a, a chat in, in a psychotherapy session and say, if the multiverse really does exist, there's a version of you that has already had this conversation with your spouse, and I wonder how that would've gone. And we talk about it and think about it.
We dunno which version of the, which universe we're in, unfortunately, but maybe they know which universe they want to be in and the steps that need to be taken that take them to it, but it needs talking about, and if they just bottle it up, nothing's gonna happen.
Also you, you mentioned earlier about that there are some friends that you can talk to, Danielle and some you can't. I've experienced this with clients when they've said, well, I tried to talk about it. I tried to say in this meeting that I had, I'm having such and such an experience and I got laughed at, or poo-pooed, or whatever it was, and then they go back inside themselves and the trying causes so much trouble that they then, give up. Shut
Yeah, and I think this is why these new workplace policies are so important. I think there is a place, and I, I'd quite like to get out to every workplace in the country to talk to, to them about this is what's going on for 50% of your staff at some point potentially. and how can you support them because that's, that's going to be vital going forward, especially as hopefully more women are getting more jobs, and working longer, so they are going to be experiencing it at that time in their life.
So we want people to be able to support each other as they're going through it.
I think self-esteem might need to be addressed a lot of the time as well. When you were describing that situation where somebody would be in a meeting and they'd have to explain, sorry. Um, that thought's just gone outta my head, um, perimenopausal at the minute. So, uh, just bear with me a bit and people get laughed and poo-pooed. That's when somebody needs to recognize. If I'm being belittled because of being human, that's on them. That's not on me.
If I feel uncomfortable, it's because they are making me uncomfortable rather than I have no value. And I want people to be angry about that. Sometimes clients will come to me and go, you know, I've got some anger issues, and they'll describe the things they're angry about and I think. You should be angry about some of those things. That's okay. That's a normal feeling to have. Oh, maybe you're exaggerating. Cause you just put a chair through a window.
But it's okay to feel the way you feel because those things should be making you angry. How do we take action if we don't have any emotion that drives us? But what I want is that if somebody feels upset because they're being belittled in a workplace that they know they shouldn't be. And maybe in the past people thought that was okay. Well, I, yeah, I'm, I should be ignored and poo-pooed. I am past it now. I should be forgotten. I should know my place.
Solving this is gonna be different for everybody if there is, if it's really completely a hundred percent solvable. People will talk about therapy. People will talk about H R T. I hear mixed, reports about H R T. Uh, really the biggest issue that pops up into people's minds is that going through the menopause, helps lower the possibility of breast cancer, and then going on to H R T puts that risk back up.
I understand why people would be a bit concerned, but for many HRT is the a real big help, isn't it?
yeah, it's, it is an interesting debate actually. So when I started doing the research around around menopause, I was quite anti H R T. Oh, they just solve it with a pill and we need to be doing therapeutic work. But actually having, having looked into it more, I think there's a, a huge place for H R T if, if you look at it as it's a chemical imbalance and this is going to help people. It's a function and, and ultimately at some points it is about functioning.
as I said, it worked brilliantly for me with a very low dose for not very long.
For some women, it's been a lifesaver, literally. But I mean, I don't think there's been a direct link made, but there was some research that the highest incidence of suicide in women was in 50 to 54 year old women. And when we look at. When we look at the average age of menopause being 51, I, I find that hard to ignore. so I think for some people H R T is absolutely a lifesaver and certainly helps to improve women's quality of life when the balance is right.
One of the difficulties is it feels to me like a bit of trial and error when, when prescriptions are made because there isn't a measure. It's not like saying, well, you've got, you've got five points of estrogen and you need 10, so we'll give you five, five bits of it. It's not managed like
Which is why my initial appointment was that half an hour because the GP had to look at all sorts of things, get somebody else involved, pulled away from their consultation because it was complicated. They did happen to get it right that first time. but it is complicated. And I know that one of the thoughts that I had before was, well, menopause is a natural process and you've got to get to the other side, so shouldn't you just get to the other side?
But I, I had got to the point where it was just too much and that did help me get to the other side more easily.
and it's not necessary to suffer for the sake of suffering because it's part of our natural process. some of the menopause clinics that, that are now set up have specialists who are particularly knowledgeable and, and have a combination of Gps with specialist training, pharmacists who have specialist knowledge around hormone management, and I think they're probably getting better results, maybe more targeted. In terms of H R T.
Do you believe, because I know that some people do, that the mind can, adjust your hormones by, thinking about it or in instructing your unconscious mind to change it. I say that cuz I, I did know somebody who was starting to set up a specialty doing that. Didn't continue. Main reason that had no qualification on which to do so. But what, what do you think on that?
well we know that the placebo effect is a real thing, but what we need to do is look at just where the limits are to a placebo. Cuz there are limits. You don't, can't regrow an arm with a placebo. You need surgery to attach it back on if it's been sliced off in a farming accident, for example.
gonna say you. I haven't heard surgery regrowing an arm,
There is a limit to the placebo, but when we see so many studies, because everything that involves medication has been tested with a placebo and does show Yep. For this even how to control your ribonucleic acid to help prevent the HIV virus turning into full-blown Aids if a placebo can help us rearrange our ribonucleic acid in our body. Cause I don't know where the heck that is, but it's in there somewhere. From an endocrine perspective, can it boost our estrogen?
We know it can with testosterone. Those studies exist. Well, it might involve a bit of exercise, but maybe it's the exercise that does that, the punch bags, and it's an attitude. But if, but an attitude is psychological, but it's a, strong claim, isn't it? To say, oh, just think yourself out of menopause.
Well, it makes me think about depression, so I, I tend to think about depression generally as, as there being almost two types of clinical one. Where there is, there is a chemical imbalance in the brain and you need the medication to balance things out again. And then on the flip side of that, a reactive depression as a result of an incident.
But there are arguments that the reactive depression stimulates the chemical imbalance, and so you could potentially need the medication to balance out short term and that you wouldn't need it forever. So whether the same could be done hormonally. I don't know. I, I'm tending to, err more towards a combined approach now where medication might be needed to balance out the hormones.
So that physically things are more settled and then therapeutically to work with clients on the emotional side of it, managing the transition. But it depends on, the theory that you look at in terms of how estrogen impacts an individual. So you can say that estrogen drops, instance of depression rise. Because of the estrogen dropping.
But equally, you could look at the fact that estrogen drops, there are physical changes and as a result of the physical changes, depression occurs like, and they call it the domino theory, that one thing happens. So then another happens and then another happens. Or the psychosocial effect. I'm going through these changes. Society's treating me differently, and I feel differently about myself, and it could be a combination of all three.
From a, man's perspective. What can we do? Because it's one thing to say, well, if my wife is gonna go through something like that, I'll be there to support her. But I think it would need approaching quite sensitively. What I'm thinking about is there might be men listening to this who want their partners, their wives, the spouses, the girlfriends, whatever, to listen to this themselves, to go, I think you might be going through this. And that needs tackling a little sensitively, I think.
Because there's nothing more, nothing more awkward. Oh, comedic. I mean It was an entire episode of The Royle Family I think once. Where this is just how badly men are, at saying, oh, you're going through the change. Are you love? Okay, we'll get through this. We'll get through this. I'll be here for you. I'll make you pie a mash or something like that. Okay. What can men do?
so apart from take cover for 10 years, and there was an article recently about menopause being to blame for increase in divorce, as well. But I think. I think there's something about educating them, about being able to talk about it and, and I remember growing up that it was considered to be inappropriate for men to say, oh, is it the time of the month? And it was like, it was the worst thing to say.
But actually, in hindsight, if they've got that understanding that there are fluctuations in hormones and it does affect women's mood. The reality is that might play a part in why they're feeling the way that they're feeling. And I think men need just as much education as women so that they can go along that journey with, with some empathy as well.
Yeah, there's a big difference between saying, Oh, doing the maths in my head, you're probably due on next week, aren't you? Is that part of what's going on at the minute? There's a big difference between saying that and saying, is it rag week?
Yeah, the sensitivity.
There are people listening that go. Rag week? What's that? Well, that's what we used to laughingly joke about it back in the nineties and probably before that and there was lots of worse ones, which I hope don't exist anymore it's gone from culture.
The particular problem there is when a woman perhaps gets a little bit angry in a meeting for very good reason, and then it's blamed on hormones. When she had every right to be angry. Anyway, that's to me, the main problem with it. In terms of what men can do is I would say it's what all people can do all the time, which is listen and don't judge and, try not to solve it. So that's one of the worst things is well, what do we do to get you through this? What do we do to solve it for you?
That's not really gonna be helpful.
And possibly not a problem to solve. Just to,
It is something that has to be gone through in some way or another, and there is an exit point.
like going on a bear hunt. You, can't go under it. You can't go over it. You've gotta go through it.
Question for you, Danielle. You mentioned brain fog. Do you know, anecdotally or with statistics preferably, how that resolves? If it does, do, does the mind go back to where it was when things settle down?
That is a really good question and I don't have statistics for it. What I've seen anecdotally is that things settle down for everything, as women go through it, although not for, not necessarily for all women. And then I think there's a risk that women get put on the heap because they're no, no longer any use, which I don't think is accurate. I'll always fight for women.
I think there's a, there's a tendency for it to tie in personally to the, the, the general idea of aging and, oh, you're bound to be losing your memory cuz you're getting older. and at the time of recording, there's been the Gwyneth Paltrow ski case where the, the guy who sued her, they constantly, they've been, it's over now but they were constantly saying, this is a natural process of aging. This is a natural process of it. And I'm thinking, Come on.
I mean, I, I don't believe that, it was a, Factor of him of the accident. I don't believe that. But there were other factors going on. There was other damage to his brain and get very annoyed when people say you are bound to be losing your faculties as you get older. Was somebody at my bridge club who learned to play online when they were over a hundred. In the pandemic. Now, if you can do that. Oh, let's, let's go with that model of the world and the brain rather than the, oh, it's a decline.
I remember the actor, Richard Wilson, going back to theater in his, late sixties. He'd not done any theater. It was all TV for decades and decades and decades and decades. And now he's gotta memorize all these lines. He's like, yeah, I've gotta put in a little bit of extra work, but, I do it, I can do it even though he is pushing 70 at the time and he could, You dunno what you can do unless you have a go at it and get outta your own way and stop telling yourself that you can't.
Well, Danielle, what a super episode we've had today. Thanks ever so much for coming on and, and sharing all of this outstanding information, and I think we all need to take this on board into our current lives or future lives. We all need to share all of this sort of stuff, so hey, share this episode with your friends and family. I think we'll all get something from this. Ah, any closing words, you two before we sign off and say, Tara, to everybody?
Well, I did want to just check with Danielle. Is there anything that she'd wanted to say that we haven't asked or led
I think hopefully we've, we've introduced the topic to people and, and I would encourage people to keep talking about it, to be as open as possible and to ask questions, and find out more.
Also, if anybody's got any questions, feel free to let us know You can email us. There's a form on on my website where you can fill it in. Send us some questions and topic ideas for future episodes. But you can refer to this and say, this has been my experience. And you can share stuff that's going on for you. Thank you very much again, Danielle. I hope to see you person face-to-face at some point very, very soon. We haven't done that for ages. It's been yonks.
If not, maybe a couple of yonks since I've seen you face to face. Yes, would be nice to catch up. We'll probably due a conference, but that's another story. Anyhoo. We need to sign off for today. Like I always say, you know where we are if you want us fill in a form on the website, send us a question, send us a topic idea, but we'll be back next week anyway. See you then. Take care
Thank you, Danielle. Bye.
Thank you. Bye.