Good day to you all! It's Therapy Natters time! Half an hour of mental health nattering, brought to you by two psychotherapists, Fiona Biddle and myself, Richard Nicholls, who really love to talk, but spend half of their career sitting and listening instead. And so once a week, we make up for that by nattering on here. And you can't shut us up. How you doing, Fiona?
I'm doing well, but it's more than half. We shouldn't be spending half our time, we should be spending most of our time listening.
Oh, yeah, yes, yes, that's fair,
Okay, but in our ordinary lives, we can, we don't have to just listen, do we?
oh, I'm going to challenge you on the just listen, because as counsellors or therapists, we don't just listen, and actually listening is quite hard. A lot of people think that all you've got to do is just sit and listen to somebody and they'll feel validated. No. Not if they've got huge insecurities or rejection sensitivity. You can't just... You've got to demonstrate that you are genuinely interested in what they've got to say.
And you have to be genuinely interested because you can't you can't fake it. And yes, you're absolutely right, there is not a just in that thing. In fact I heard somebody recently say that they didn't agree with Roger's view that you just sat passively listening and I responded with that's why the term is active listening
Yeah.
and because it is, it's an active process that when we're listening to a client, which is quite different from how it can be when you're sitting around the dinner table with your family when it might be. Passively listening. But even then, to develop a stance of actively listening and being curious.
Somebody I know who's met lots and lots of famous people royalty, and Politicians particularly, and one thing that he says about them is that some of them really, really are interested, and some of them aren't, and you can really tell the difference and it makes such a difference. I won't name names on the don't listen side but on the listening side one of them is our King, King Charles.
Well, that makes sense. I can see that.
This person I know, said that Charles was interested in everybody he spoke to at the event where they met. Well, actually, there was an incident where one of the waitresses fell over and Charles looked after her and even followed up a few days later to check that she was okay and said things like, don't worry, It happens to everybody. You know, falling over in front of the then Prince of Wales, carrying food, not good.
So being the sort of person who takes an interest, stands everybody in good stead.
Mm. Yeah. Active listening, actually being genuinely Interested in what somebody's got to say. That isn't just for counsellors and psychotherapists, though. That is a skill that is going to move into every area of business. HR particularly, of course. You need to be interested in the person that's in front of you with their issue. And be able to listen to them. But Managers? Anybody that's a team leader? Just a colleague! Anybody in the workplace, actually.
Anybody.
yeah, anybody anywhere.
And if you turn it around, by being interested, you become more interesting, and there's various books on this, but there's one called How To Get On With Anyone, it's been around for quite a long time, it's still really quite prominent Lowndes, I think the author is, L O W N D E S .But the basis of the How To Get On With Anyone is to be interested, which makes you interesting.
I remember my, my mum, this is going back decades, decades and decades. I think my mum was probably in her 40s or early 50s, something like that. And she came back from a job interview and said, I think I've got that job. And I was interested, I was a little kid, or a teenager maybe. I said, oh, how do you know? And she went, Because for the last half of the interview, we were mostly talking about our dogs, our pets. I thought, ah.
The interviewer was genuinely interested in you and your dogs, and she was interested in him and his dogs, and they were just chatting about their dogs. And she thought, as she walked out, she thought, this is in the bag, I've got this. And there's been so much research done into what makes a successful job interview situation.
Time and time again, what we find is that things like the degree that you've got, or even the experience that you've got, the stuff that's on your CV, that might get you the interview. But what gets you the job is, does the interviewer like you? Does that interviewer think, yeah, I'd enjoy working with this person. They're not rude, cruel, they're not a Nazi, you know, they're not racist. It sounds quite easy, just don't be a racist in your job interview and you'll probably get on better.
Well, not necessarily, because what if the interviewer is?
They walk amongst us.
So, yes, yeah. But I got the book wrong. It's How to Talk to Anyone is the Lowndes one. There is one called How to Get On with Anyone, but I haven't read that one. It's How to Talk to Anyone. This is the Lowndes one that I have.
All based around Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is properly dated and old, but a lot of it still stands the test of time. Really does.
Absolutely, so interviews.
Yes.
a question.
We do. Yes. Somebody wrote in about that, didn't they?
Yes. Shall I read it?
Go for it!
Okay. This is from Chloe from Peterborough. And Chloe says, I graduated from Uni last summer and took some time off to travel with friends before returning home in the spring to look for work. It's been nearly four months now of applying for jobs but getting nowhere. My parents, who are lovely, try to encourage me, but seem to be stuck in an attitude that belongs 30 years ago, where a degree meant an instant career.
That's not the case anymore, and I'm needing to apply for roles that they seem to think I'm overqualified for, just to stand a chance of an interview. I regularly get down to the final stages, but there is a lot of competition. And I'm finding the rejections are really affecting my self esteem and I'm losing motivation. If you have any tips on how to stay motivated during times like this, I'd really appreciate it.
Now, my first thing is the smile about 30 years ago, a degree meant an instant career. I don't think that that has ever applied except in particular circumstances, particular places or particular courses. And also it makes me smile because it's 40 years since I graduated and that makes me feel really
Oh, you put your head in your hands there!
I know! 40 years since I graduated! Anyway but I studied IT and it was early days of IT, so yes, people on, my course, we had a selection of jobs we could just walk into. No problem at all. But most of the people I shared a flat with in my final year were studying what was it called? European Studies was the title of the degree. They weren't walking into jobs, I tell you.
And many people weren't, and you know, maybe, I don't know, maybe in the fifties or something, a degree meant you walked into a job, but it's not really the case.
So, I was also interested in the difference between what Chloe said about applying for jobs, and then said that In the past, it had been an instant career, so I'm wondering, obviously we don't know anything about what Chloe studied or what she's wanting to do, but there are things where you've got a particular career pathway and others where you don't. So that makes a difference, but that's sort of slightly off topic anyway, because that's not what she's asking.
She's asking for motivation to keep going,
Mmm. I think she obviously recognises that there's a game she's got to play, and she's got to just keep on applying. It's a numbers game. If there are lots of people looking for that same job, then she's just got to keep on applying for more. But obviously, every time she's getting what she described as rejected, it's knocking her self esteem. And as her self esteem goes down, and that message in her head says, You're no good at this, are you? Or just basically, you're no good.
Anything like that. Then, that is going to sap our motivation. Of course it is. Our thoughts influence the way that we feel, and the way that we feel influences our behaviour. That's been long noted, and they all feed each other. So, yes, our thoughts influence our emotions. If we think that we're worthless, we'll feel worthless. But it works the other way around.
We can feel worthless because we're not thinking that we are, it's just a feeling that comes from other stuff, because of rejection maybe. And it's the meaning behind that rejection that then gives us the thoughts, which then creates more worthless feelings, which then leads to behaviours of, well, what's the point in even getting out of bed? What's the point in even applying? We're back to that similar theme of locus of control, where Who is it that's in charge of your life?
If your locus of control is more internal, then you'll feel that you have more responsibility, you'll feel that it is worth continuing, so there'll be some drive. But if your locus of control is external, because other people have often directed you or told you what to do or maybe put you down in some way, then it can lead to an external locus of control that needs to be brought back in a little bit. All of these things are worth looking at.
but of course it is a bit tricky because you are not in control. When you apply for a job, there's only a certain amount you can do, but and there's no reason at all to suppose that Chloe isn't doing the right things, but just to have covered it, there are things that are sensible to do before a job interview, like wash and dress appropriately. Well, I do, you laugh, but I, I do remember a client coming to me for help with Interview nerves.
And it was a bit tricky 'cause it was sort of, um, do I actually say to this guy, do you dress like that when you go for an interview? Because, because it sound, it sounds judgmental there's always ways around it to get to the point. But the answer was yes, he did. And this was not matching socks or something. I seem to remember there was something with socks. I can't remember exactly, but yeah. And he said he felt it was important to be himself in job interviews. And yes, but.
The phrase Yes, but... is usually a problem, but in this instance, it's genuine. Yes, it's important to be yourself. But, you are going, you are applying, you are asking to be a member of a gang that has its own rules, whatever that is. And so you need to demonstrate that you will be able to fit with that gang that you're asking to join. Different gangs, so different employers will have different rules. And, you know, we hear stories of how Google operates and things like that,
There are some places, if you turned up in shorts and odd socks,
they'd say, Come on in, join our gang.
Come on in! Sit down! Sit on the beanbag! You know, let's have an interview.
Okay, so, you, it makes sense, it is a sensible strategy, I would say, to think about what the rules are of the gang you're asking to join.
Yeah! That's not something that ever crossed my mind, to think, oh, do I need to send an email before this interview to say? What's the sort of environment there? I'm aware that different companies have different styles, casual versus very formal. Are you somewhere in between the two? Do I need to be smart caj or more smart? It doesn't, I mean, does it hurt to ask those questions? I wouldn't have thought so. It shows interest.
I would think that usually there'd be a, subtler way to find out than that. Like, going to see people entering and leaving, would be one way. But that's, that's still, we're talking then a very visual way, way of doing things, but it doesn't, it's not all visual. I mean, we talked about active listening, but then there's speaking. The way that you speak, if you're somebody who tends to use fruity language, that might not be the best. tactic in an interview, but then it might be.
How, and how do you find that out?
You listen to how they speak. And if you have to kind of mirror and match a little bit, then do a little bit of that. It doesn't mean you have to impersonate them or put on their accent. Don't do that. That's not going to work. Quite the opposite. But you recognise, which part of me do I need to show today? Because I'm not going to show all of me, but I can show this part. But there's still the possibility of rejection, of course.
If there's 20 people going for a role, 19 people will be, in quotes, rejected. Of course they will.
And we talked about that with Lynne a few weeks ago, didn't we? When talking about auditions. she's the opera singer and We, we use the term reject on the basis that that literally means throw back and so it's a valid term for what is happening, but it probably isn't the most helpful of terms to
not the most helpful feeling, because if you call it rejection, you're going to feel rejected.
feel that it's about
You.
it, well, it sort of is, but it's not necessarily.
Ah, yeah. No, it's not. It's about the person... Well, it might be, but it's more likely it's about the person that was successful and did get the role. It's about them. And not about the unsuccessful one, I guess. But yeah, how can we not take it personally when somebody says no? Oh, oh, okay. We... I guess we can't. We feel it. We go, okay, I feel this is a personal attack on me. It's a feeling. And then we challenge it and go, is it also about other stuff as well?
Is this only about me and my age or my qualities that are being judged here? Is it only about me? No, not only. It's about lots of things, including me. And hopefully that can turn down the rejection feelings a little bit so that it doesn't knock our self-esteem so much. Not easy though.
It's an interesting power dynamic in a sense that we give the power to the people who are doing the interviews. We're walking in there and saying, here you go, judge me. But that's what's got to happen because they need to be selecting the person that's right for them. And if it's not you, that doesn't mean there's anything necessarily wrong with you. You could be absolutely brilliant and perfect. They might not see it because they're human beings as well.
We don't know what's going on in their heads, what they might be seeing in you that's not there for example. Go back to transference that we talked about a few weeks ago. They could be looking at you and seeing somebody from their past.
Yeah. And that's outside of your control, like you say. Hard to accept and maybe that's the key. We just have to use some radical acceptance and tell ourselves that, okay, that happened and I I can't do anything about it. It is what it is. It's hard to say that. When the past can't be changed, it is what it is. Because it makes it sound as if it's meaningless. And it's not. Because it's still going to hurt. But it's okay that it does. It shows that you're interested. It shows that you care.
It's been a long time since I uh, had a job interview, but I vaguely remember a time in the past where I'd just go to any interview, I'd just like to go and talk to people, so I'd just go to any interview, and I remember getting an email once that said, sorry you weren't successful, and I thought, oh, good, because it was a part time job, and it was a lot of travelling, and I thought. That's not really going to tie in very well with my therapy work, so I'm glad I didn't get that job, actually.
And maybe that came across in the interview. Oh, no, it did come across in the interview, because I remember what I said.
Go on, what did you say?
He said something, the interviewer said something like how would you, how... It was only about three days a week, or three mornings a week, or something like that. How would you feel about every couple of days... Travelling, I think it was to, it was only about 45 minutes or something, to another location. And I went, ooh, yeah. Tell me about that. Come on, sell it to me. And the arrogance of, what, you want me to sell the job to you?
And I could see in his face, and he did actually say, no, you sell you to me. Oh, okay. Don't think I'm getting this job.
Oh dear. So,
well, I didn't want it anyway.
no, but that's, that is an example of you can make mistakes in, in interviews. Yeah,
Yep.
of course now, I think it's common now, isn't it, for them to give feedback as to reasons I've never experienced that. It was just, you got it or you didn't get it. But it's a lot longer since I applied for a job.
Well, it depends what stages they're at. They're not going to do it for everybody right at the start, because there's so many they might have interviewed. But if you're getting like Chloe here, getting quite far through the stages, then, yeah, if they've got the time, then they would genuinely say this is what we want, and this is some feedback, yeah.
So the important thing there, let's start with, if you don't get feedback your mind is almost certainly going to create it anyway.
Ah.
And it's a sort of protective mechanism, I think, that is sort of, why didn't I get that? It must be because, and then go off probably to patterns about, thoughts that you've had about yourself in the past. Might be correct, might not be correct. And that's the important thing when you're mind reading the interviewers who presumably most likely you don't know. To see that as part of your own process and you can use it to learn more about yourself.
But then if you do get feedback it's similar in a way because that might be accurate or it might not be. You might, for example not get a job. They might put on your feedback that you didn't show enough get up and go, didn't show enough enthusiasm. Well, that might be because they didn't see it because you're calm and quiet and collected, but inside you're bursting with enthusiasm, but they didn't see it. But sometimes people will just get these things wrong anyway.
So a piece of feedback that you get, first of all, look at it and examine and say, well, is that accurate? Is that an accurate portrayal of me? And if it isn't, then you don't need to do anything with it. If it is, then is it something that you want to work on? Or isn't it? It might be, might not be. I suppose what I'm getting at is to allow yourself to feel the feelings, but do something with them and look at their validity, their appropriateness.
That way you're becoming the best person you can be in that situation. But you cannot control the other side of this equation.
Yeah. Hey Fiona, what's your favourite film? Do you have one? I know that's a major question, isn't it?
Back to the future. Back to the future.
That's a great film! Full of plot holes, but it's a great film.
I do not wish to know any plot hole
What? Oh come on! It's full of them! People don't talk like that! Bit random, why are you referencing... I bet his grandkids would be crazy!
Oh
for goodness sake. Things like that.
I love it.
Oh, it's cracking. Oh, all three of them. I'm a massive fan. Massive fan. So I'm going to have a look on I M D B for Back To The Future reviews, and I'm going to have a look to see how many people gave it a one star 5,300 people. Only less than 1%, but still 5,300 people gave that one star Louise would be one of those. Really?
I forced Louise to watch it and she didn't thank me.
Wow. That's a shame. Somebody here says It looks like I'm the only person in civilisation that hates this movie. I was at a friend's house and it was rented for part of the evening's entertainment. I saw it way back in 1985 when it came out. I did not then have any particular hostile feelings toward it, but seeing it again recently, looking it through the comments on IMDB, I must conclude it's the most overrated film ever made. I hate it.
And I mention that because if everybody, if they ever do get some negative feedback, negative criticism, Go and have a look at your favourite film on IMDB or some other review page, and you'll see that everybody's got different opinions. And they all think that their opinion is valid, otherwise they wouldn't be leaving a review for it. Like somebody here, overrated, horrible, the massacre of cinema, somebody's written here
yes, they are just simply wrong.
Somebody left a review for Piccadilly Circus, once, on TripAdvisor that says Awful. Not even a real circus. One star. Now it could be they were taking the mick. It could be a joke. But it's possible that they thought it was going to be a circus with clowns and acrobats and things and no, it was just an area in the centre of London. That's a circle! That's why it's called a circus! Because they might not have fully understood what it meant.
And that's the same for films, and that's the same for the things that you say to somebody else. Somebody might not get you, and that's okay. It's a bit of a shame if it influences your life, but that's okay. But what I would say to people who get so called rejected from a job, do you really want to work with somebody who doesn't get you? Probably not. They're not going to be a very useful manager if they genuinely don't understand you. And you might be better off working somewhere else anyway.
There's another perspective there.
Yeah, and also that just took me back to a job that I didn't get one time. And because I knew somebody who worked there, I found out that before the interviews even took place, they knew who was getting it.
Yeah, that does happen.
And, yes, it happens, and also, they could be using really weird criteria for who they take on. Sometimes they might actually, I find it difficult to even say this, they might want to take somebody on who's not as good.
Oh, I guess. Yeah, there's going to be times where that happens. yeah,
because they might want to take, oh, yes, I remember an example when this was, my ex husband was given a job and he discovered afterwards that one of the interviewers thought that he would be a yes man.
Ah
and it turned out that he wasn't, but actually they became really, really good friends. So it was one of those ones where it all worked out nicely. But that was one of the inner criteria that, that guy had when he was looking to appoint. Was, I
just somebody who does as they're
I want somebody who will do as they're told and will agree with me.
doesn't sound like your ex husband.
No, no, he will say what he thinks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But yeah, they did get on. Very, very well.
I guess. It's almost impossible for it to not create some sort of emotional reaction when we're disappointed. Because that's what disappointment is. But we need to label that feeling. Rather than feel, oh, I'm feeling rejected. Yeah, you are. No. Hmm. Let's play with that a little bit. You have been rejected, you're feeling disappointed. And it's the disappointment and sadness. That you label as rejection. Is being rejected a feeling? Being ostracised is, I guess. And that's dangerous.
No one wants to be ostracised. It's a label, isn't it? It's difficult.
Yeah. If we go back to the joining the gang analogy, it's not being allowed to join a gang. So it's not an active being sent out of a gang. It's not being allowed into the gang.
So it's ostracisation. And we know from so many studies that that's as painful in the brain as having electric shocks. It's tribal. We're
yeah. it's been, you, you can't, come into this tribe. So you're not in it to start with. You are saying, can I come in, can I play please? And the other kids are saying, no, you can't.
And that happens on every playground when we're growing up, to everybody at some point. It might happen to some people more than others. It might happen to somebody just once in their entire life that they remember. But it happens to everybody, and it hurts. Of course. And maybe there are echoes of that. If being rejected, ostracised later in life does have a significant influence on how we feel, how we think, and how we behave, maybe we do need to look back and go, is this an echo?
Am I just hearing echoes from the past here that are still influencing me 15 years later, 20 years later, 50 years later? Maybe. And maybe that feeling belongs then. And that little seven year old that was told they couldn't play just needs a hug and told, You're still lovable. It's okay. You're still lovable. And that's easily done. We don't always need a therapist for that, although it can be nice to. But we can just go inside our own imagination and have a little hug with that seven year old.
Who's playing. I do that with clients all the time. Inner child work. lovely. And I give everybody access to some recordings that I keep on a little membership site on my webpage. Where they can go and listen to these things that I've recorded. And they're lovely. It's really nice to have that little inner child healing.
So Chloe, Chloe, Chloe, keep going, keep going. I always have the belief and I don't really know where it comes from. I'm not big on these sorts of things, but that you will get the one that's right. That if you don't get something, it's like, if you're wanting to get a house or a flat or whatever, and it falls through and you can't get it, the next one will always be better. It might take a while, but you will get what's right. It will come about.
And there is something to learn from every single one of these application processes.
As long as you're learning the right thing. What we want people to learn is how to handle interviews. Maybe even learning how to handle rejection, or feedback, or criticism. How, you know, I want to learn how to handle that. And you've got to have it. But what we don't want is that somebody learns to devalue themselves. They learn to hate themselves. They learn that the world is chaos and everything is going to fall apart. And I'm hopeless.
That's not what you're being taught in those situations. And that needs challenging if that pops into your head. Because it's likely to, of course. But then we challenge it and go... Okay, I'm not only going to think these things, I'm also going to think this other perspective. And if we think that new perspective that's healthier more often, then it's like a mantra. It becomes unconscious to us, it dilutes down all the negativity.
But it isn't easy to be the optimistic realist, if we've been a pessimist. Or we've had a lot of difficult experiences. You've just got to keep plugging away. You've just got to keep doing it. And that is something you are in control of. How many jobs you apply for, whether you feel overqualified or not. You're still in control of how many you apply for.
You're also in control of How you think, and maybe not always how you feel, but you have control over how you process those feelings, and potentially turn them into something more optimistic. Yeah, you're in control of that. It's not easy, but you are in control of that, and take control over that, and it will feel a lot better.
absolutely. If your glass is half empty, pour it into a smaller glass.
Then you've got a full one. Ah,
Yes.
makes sense. I like that. I've not heard that one before. I'm going to pinch that for my Monday motivational social media posts.
Feel free.
Will do!
You can have it.
I'll be on Canva in five minutes, I'm sure, knocking that up for Monday. Right, we ought to let everybody go for another week, Fiona. What are we up to next week?
I have no idea. What are we up to next week? Have we got, have we? We must have a guest.
We do. It is... Do do do do do do do do! Being a client. We're going to talk about what it's like to be a client in therapy. That isn't something we've really spoken about much before.
our guest is a client. Not one of ours, obviously,
No, that's pushing boundaries.
not be a good thing. We will explain more when we see you.
Look forward to it.
Metaphorically see you. Yes.
Right, I'll leave you to it, you beautiful people. And Fiona, I leave you to. We'll speak to you all again next week. Ta ta!
Bye bye.