Hello there therapy Natters fans. It's time for another episode. If you are new to us, this is the podcast series where two psychotherapists, who are myself Richard Nicholls, and co-host Fiona Biddle, pick a topic inspired by you, you lovely listeners, and natter about it for half an hour or so. Hi there Fiona. Welcome to a new week. How are you?
Is this a new week? It's the end of the week, but that's okay. Maybe it's a new week when this goes out,
Hmm. Well it goes out on a Wednesday, but
I'm feeling a little bit sort of, oh, I can't think of what the word would be. With, we've had, we've had all sorts of tech issues, haven't we?
Yes.
Getting this going. So I think I'm feeling a bit silly that everything's just a bit, oh, goodness gracious. Let's just have a go.
Yeah, when we get problems with, with tech, with internet connections and things like that, it can be a bit frustrating. You get used to stuff, don't you?
You get used to it working all the time, and then when it doesn't, it feels like your world has fell apart a little bit because we're so reliant on things like the internet, so reliant on all those things that are supposed to work properly when they should, but then don't like public transport and obviously the internet when that goes down and your sky TV and your free view or whatever, it's.
And then we have a choice as to whether to, to view that as this is actually quite fun or it's really stressful. I was on a train yesterday and we were sitting outside Bristol Temple Meads waiting to approach the platform and the train manager came on and said that there is a problem with the line side equipment and we would be here for the foreseeable future.
How long? What's that
Now, this is the second time in about two weeks that I've had the same message different place, but for the foreseeable future
Well, for the rest of your life.
well, I, I think they've, it must be something that they're being told now to say if they don't know how long they're going to be. But for me, the foreseeable future, I can see the future ahead for several years now.
I hope so.
So for the foreseeable, oh gosh, I'm gonna be here for years.
I'd rather they didn't put it quite like that
Yes. So I, I think they've got the, the wording a little bit wrong in that context, but it was about 15 minutes and that was all, and I had plenty of time to change.
Like I, I've, I've said before, mentioned this on the podcast a couple of weeks ago I think. If you're stuck in traffic, you don't wanna ring up and go, Hey, sat Nav says that I'm gonna be 10 minutes late, so I'll see you in an extra 10 minutes. You don't know. Satnav doesn't know the future, doesn't know what's coming up further down the motorway. If you don't know, you've just gotta admit it. I genuinely don't know.
Otherwise, you just end up putting more pressure on yourself and making everybody anxious.
Well, I wasn't anxious cuz I'd heard it before, and so I was able to help other people to say this is the phrase they're using when they want to say, we don't know.
Yeah, it's upsetting for everybody else listening though, cause we like our expectations to be met. Our brain is both very clever, but at the same time, very, very stupid. I was looking at an image of it, it was illustration. I'll drop the link into the image onto the, into the show notes actually.
Cause it was an interesting little diagram of what we would think of as our conscious brain and our unconscious, the prefrontal cortex at the top, and then this old-fashioned limbic system at the bottom. And they're just not wired up together. You've gotta go around the back of the brain to connect it all up rather than directly, and that takes forever. It's really complicated.
I find it absolutely fascinating really in that, that we are in one sense, very primitive. We are animals and we have the same physiological responses as other animals, and yet we have the exceptionally detailed nuances as to how to categorize those responses. So in terms of, you know, anger is different from frustration, is different from rage, is different from disappointment. We can get down to really micro, granular level of, of our emotions. Which is fascinating.
Hmm. Yeah, it is. I'm quite interested in the brain. I, I wouldn't be me without it. I, I wouldn't be in the job that I'm in if I wasn't so interested in the brain, because we've all got one, but we don't really know how it works. Turns out, looking at these images, we don't, we're not really built to work with our brain if the, if there really is a God, they didn't design it this way, this was not done deliberately cuz it's a flipping mess.
Like I was saying in this, this diagram, the brain just isn't wired up to talk conscious versus unconscious.
there's a gap, literally a, a physical gap in the brain, which means that the neurological setup means if you are working with the unconscious, you're, you're being emotional, it's easier to stay emotional, it's easier for all those neurons to be connected and sending signals to each other, but when you're being logical and rational, Then those are the neurons that are being used and they bounce backwards and forward.
So it's easier to stay in that rational mindset, and it's not easy to do both, to be able to feel all of those emotions and be anxious or panicky or whatever, but then also be logical and rational to go, you know what, it's okay. Everything's gonna be fine, but we can, it just takes a lot of effort. And there are things that we can do that can help that along. And this is one of the things we wanted to mention today a little bit.
It is about hypnosis and hypnotherapy or mindfulness, however we want to call that state of mind. That's a way of doing it. It's not easy for the unconscious and conscious to keep talking to each other well, but we know how to make that easier, don't we?
Practice makes
Permanent practice makes permanent. Yes.
well done. Yes. I couldn't remember what the word was. I just knew it wasn't perfect.
Yeah. But we have to practice that state of mind. We have to practice that hypnosis or meditation, that mindfulness to train the brain to be able to talk to the unconscious or listen or accept or whatever, and not just be stuck in our con in our. In our emotional processes are stuck in our logical, rational stuff. I love hypnosis. I think it's great. I was fascinated with it as a kid when I first saw flipping Paul Daniels back in the day doing it on a TV show on a Saturday night.
Paul Daniels did hypnosis. Did he?
Yeah. Yeah, he did. He didn't do a great deal of it, but yeah, he did a little bit of it, and that's that sort of got my interest going as a little kid. Yeah. He got a trick where he got somebody up on stage and he got a chair stuck in their hands and they couldn't put it down. He called it hypnosis, or, or did he Well, it was just suggestion or hypnosis, whatever you wanna, yeah, whatever you want to call it, I guess.
both. Yes, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I remember it was one years ago, which was Derren Brown one where he he got everybody watching on TV to stick to their seats and I stuck to my seat, but my sons didn't. And they were, why are you doing that? And I said, because I'm choosing to. And you choose to go along with the suggestions, don't you? Basically.
Yeah, I, and I love Derren Brown. Big, big, big fan. I dunno how he managed to get away with some of the stuff that he did because you are not supposed to be able to do hypnosis on tv.
I think he, I think he's brilliant because he just says it's not hypnosis and then does it. yeah, you're not allowed to demonstrate hypnosis on the tv. So he just says it's not, and then does it anyway, that's, that's my perception of, of how he does it. But I, I think the legislation is flawed in that it's misunderstood as to what's going on and the idea that, oh, you wouldn't want to hypnotize the whole audience. Well, that's what TV's about. If you, I've just finished watching Happy Valley.
I'm a bit behind. I mean, if you watch something like that, you are in hypnosis, you know, you, you completely engaged and all sorts of things that isn't obviously going to be. Imparting suggestions. There's plenty of things that do give suggestions whilst you're watching. So yeah, it's a bit of a misunderstanding. So, I would back Derren in what he's doing,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Top fella. And because we are hypno psychotherapists. Not just hypnotherapists, not just psychotherapists. We're hypno psychotherapists. At least that's a label that gets used a lot. Hypnosis has always formed a big part of my treatment plan with my clients.
I'll suggest to as many of them as I can that they're go and go onto my website and listen to some hypnotherapy, relaxation recordings and things like that, and we'll do stuff face-to-face if that's what they come in asking for. And one of my patrons on Patreon, hello Julie. She asked, is there more that she could learn about hypnotherapy? She's training as a person-centered counselor, wants to know a little bit more.
Yeah, and I, I think I'd like to preface this next little bit. Well, I hope it's a little bit of what we're gonna talk about to say this could really be boring to some people, but I, I think it's actually quite important that we put hypnotherapy into the context of talking therapies in the uk. it's different in different places around the world, but you know, this is a, a British podcast, so let's mostly talk about where it is in that context.
Yeah.
And you say Richard, that you had that message coincidentally this week I had a, request from an old client from years and years ago asking if I could see a friend and it was asking for hypnotherapy, but something that hypnotherapy is completely the wrong thing. I think that that let's, should, would that be a good idea to put a little bit of context around?
Yeah, as long as it's not disclosing anything.
No, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. It's not disclosing, but this is about the, to help anybody who's interested to know where hypnotherapy fits and what it can be used for and when it should not be used. So, In the uk there is no regulation on the use of talking therapies at all. So, psychotherapy, counseling, hypnotherapy there's no legislation. There is for psychology that is regulated through the health professions council. And psychologists drain to doctorate level.
And it is quite different. and obviously psychiatry, I say obviously psychiatry is a medical discipline. So a psychiatrist is is a medical doctor. They went to medical school and then specialized in psychiatry. So most of that is about medication. Not all of it, but an awful lot of it's about medication.
Mm, yeah, it is. I was chatting with a, a lecturer at Cardiff Uni. Not so long ago, and he was saying that, oh, he'd had some, it's quite unfortunate, really. He was lecturing in psychology, so people would be going to uni to study psychology. And one of the things he would say is, so what brings you here? What are you, what are you hoping to do after you've graduated?
And there was a few people that were saying that they wanted to be psychiatrists and he had to tell them you're on the wrong course. In order to be a psychiatrist, you've gotta go to medical school. You're a medical doctor. You can't study psychology and then become a psychiatrist. Not unless you go to medical school with another flipping hundred grand in the bank spare and student loan till you're 50. Because people don't fully understand.
Yeah. In, in, in the States, for example, psychiatry is, is much more attuned to psychotherapy. There's much more of the talking therapy involved in it there than there is here. So we are putting psychiatry and psychology to one side. And then we've got psychotherapy, counseling, hypnotherapy, and we've talked in a previous episode of different forms of those things. But just generally speaking there's recently been, well I say recently, it started in 2016.
A project run by to start with the three main bodies for talking therapies in the uk. That's UKCP, B A C P, and B P C. So UK Council for Psychotherapy, British Association of Counseling Psychotherapy, and British Psychoanalytic Council. And the purpose was to write down for the first time ever what these things actually are. What, does it mean to be a counselor? What does it mean to be a psychotherapist?
And to see whether there was a difference because there've been long arguments, some people saying there's difference in some people saying there was no difference. And then in about 2020, thereabouts some of the other organizations joined the Association of Christians in Counseling, National Counseling Society, Human Givens Institute.
So, all these bodies have then come to the conclusion as to what the competencies are, what people who are doing these roles can do, and they have found differentiation. There are differences. Now they've, at the moment I say they, but I've actually been
Oh yeah. Yeah.
the beginning, so it is sort of me as well. Decided not to give these differences titles. We were sort of thinking it was important, but it's turned out to not be important. But there are differences, so there's three columns, A, B, and C. In column A. People have trained for approximately 3 to 400 hours actually live training.
So face-to-face, some of it recently may have been on Zoom, but face-to-face with a tutor there together, 300 to 400 hours with approximately a hundred client sessions that need to be assessed. And it's about level four or level five, that sort of academic level. So that's sort of, A level to first year of degree level. Okay.
Yeah.
Then in column B it's usually about three years, not two. With 450 hours of live training, 450 client hours. And that training ranges from level four still, but up to usually about level six, maybe a little bit more level six being a graduate level. So final year of degree level. And then column C. Would be four years training, minimum, 500 hours minimum training, although an awful lot of those trainings are far, far more than 500. And that's level seven. So that's postgraduate level.
So you can see the differences between these, these things. It's ranging from level four, so A level right through to master's degree. Increasing the number of hours, increasing the amount of practice. The point of this, the main point of this is to then put hypnotherapy into this context. Hypnotherapy, again, we don't have any legislation for it, so there is not anything fixed externally.
But there is an organisation called the UK Council for Hypnotherapy Organisations, which is most of the hypnotherapy training organisations and professional bodies all came together and decided on their standards, which includes 120 hours. Face to face training compared to the three to 400 hours of column A in the counseling and psychotherapy.
And no particular number of hours of practice, and it's level four to five, so you can see just from that that it's quite a lot lower than some of the others. This does not mean it's a bad thing. It does not, it's not in any way a criticism. What it is saying is that hypnotherapy is a particular process.
One where people who would, if you looked at this whole framework, people who be suited for going to somebody in column C should not be going to somebody who's a hypnotherapist, unless they are also for example, a UKCP psychotherapist and, you know, Richard, you and I are in column C and we are hypnotherapists and there are quite a lot of us who do cover both of those.
But it is important not to go to somebody who is somebody who's done one of those 120 hour hypnotherapy trainings when you have serious psychiatric disorders.
Correct
And, and sometimes the problem is that they don't know that it's outside of their competence because it's so far removed. So the
You don't know what you don't know.
yeah, you dunno what you dunno. The person I was asked to, to see was somebody who was suicidal hearing voices and under the care of a psychiatrist. So it's something where that's, that's an absolute no for hypnotherapy. Hypnotherapist should not be working with people who are psychotic. You could use if, again, if you were in column C, you could use your other skills, et cetera, to help the person to deal with the situation that they are in. But it's not about resolving it.
Does that make sense?
It does make sense. And the thing is, it's not as if there's a box for every single client. We've got here we are with these boxes, A, B, and C. We're not gonna fit all these people into it. It's, it's complicated.
it is complicated business and because we don't have any regulation, if you, if you think about if you've got a problem with your teeth, you know who to go to. You, you know when to go to a hygienist. You know when to go to a dentist, you know when to go to an orthodontist. These things are very clearly delineated. And unfortunately they aren't in talking therapies.
I just wanted to say, cuz I said about the uk, it's an interesting case in, in America that hypnotherapy in a lot of states, and it does vary state by state. In a lot of states, it's much more restricted than it is in the uk.
Oh Yeah.
So in, in the uk a, a standard hypnotherapist who's done UK Confederation of Hypnotherapy Organisation's training course, would be able to use regression to go back into childhood and find out the reasons why you were phobic of dogs or snakes or
Yeah. Yeah.
But in many states, Of United States, that would be not allowed, that would be considered practicing medicine without a license and you could go to jail.
Yikes.
So whilst we tend to have a view in Britain that America is ahead of us, uh, in many things, they certainly aren't in this context.
Uh, No, because I can understand what I can understand what they're saying is that this is serious business unpacking somebody's past and the better qualified you are to do that, the better. But not necessarily as doctor. I wouldn't go to a trauma specialist about my in growing toenail if I had one and I wouldn't go to my doctor. About my severe traumatic experience, aged five. So there is a need for these boxes. There absolutely is to know who's the right sort of person to go to for this issue.
Is it a hypno psychotherapist or is it a psychotherapist? Is it a hypnotherapist? In some cases you can say it almost doesn't matter because it's the relationship that you create. That's the important thing, and that can be with anybody really who understands counselling and psychotherapy, whether they've been specialising in hypnosis and hypnotherapy or not. And if you've got a, a phobia or a fear of something, hypnotherapy is one of the first things that pops into people's mind as a treatment.
But if you also have P T S D and you've had some severe complex trauma gone on throughout your life, then just seeing a hypnotherapist that could actually harm them.
Yes.
If that therapist wasn't also a, a counsellor or a psychotherapist. What all of people don't understand about trauma, and I think we spoke about this before, is that in tackling the problem, in talking about the problem, because after all it's good to talk, it's what we say. In doing that, you are going to start off causing pain for that client. If you have trauma you are going to be slightly re-traumatised and if, if that's not managed properly, then all sorts of problems are gonna happen.
Yeah. And the thing is that it's not straightforward because trauma can, you know my usual thing about being on a continuum.
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's one thing to have a problem with, say, relationships being suspicious, because when you were 17, your very first serious partner cheated on you, and you were heartbroken. Yeah. Talk about that with a hypnotherapist, you can put that back in its box where it belongs and let it dissolve away. But if you've just come out of a cult that you've been brainwashed in for five years and you've got massive
Yeah, I mean, I, I think perhaps the thing to recognize is that pretty much anything can be traumatic. But it's not necessarily way up onto on a, on a scale of trauma. And also some of the things that we might think would be hugely traumatic, a person might not feel as traumatic. I know we've talked before about trauma in terms of people's ability to cope with it.
So, in the military some people really, really struggle and come outta the military with post-traumatic stress disorder and serious issues. Other people do just sail through it without too much issue. And there are all sorts of reasons why it might be one or the other or somewhere in between. So it's, it's very much an individual idea. So I would say hypnotherapists are trained to deal with trauma, but they're not necessarily trained to deal with PTSD
Aha.
And so, so if they, if they're dealing with the trauma of having been bitten by a dog when they were seven or being dumped by their first girlfriend, boyfriend when they were 16, or the humiliation of making a terrible mistake in front of everybody. All of those sorts of things can be dramatic. Actually, I've, I've started listening to a podcast with Jack Whitehall
Oh right.
Safe Space.
Oh.
And I, I did want to, I did want to mention it because I thought it was a brilliant concept. I mean, I like the chap anyway he's great. But this was, is, a podcast where people can explain embarrassing situations that they've been in and to, to let it out, to express it with the, with the intention of moving on. And the first episode they had, or he had Emily Atack on as his guest
yeah,
and. You know, it's obviously funny. I mean, other people's embarrassing stories are amusing. I mean, that's what humor is. it's, it's
Laughing.
it's it's laughter at pain or fear or danger. So hearing other people's embarrassing stories, and I often recommend that to people anyway. who struggle with embarrassment. Watch, other people's. And you'll learn it's not really just you and it doesn't matter all that much, but unfortunately, Emily Atack said, Oh, you never ever get over these embarrassments. They're just always there in your life, in your dreams. And you never get over them.
And I thought oh, no, no, please, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because you can, you absolutely can get over them. And those, those are the sorts of, Little, little traumas. Mostly those, those sorts of embarrassing incidents.
I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, I said the most ridiculous thing in a meeting, I won't say what it is cuz nobody would understand what on earth I was talking about, but they didn't in the meeting either cuz it was i, I was just completely and utterly wrong and I felt so stupid. Well, because it was really stupid what I said, but you know, that's okay. You know, it's, it is embarrassing, but I'm a human being
Yeah.
and I, I think, well, maybe I did some other people in the meeting a favour cuz they think, oh,
Not just me then.
me who did
Yeah.
time. But, we, we all do these things and that's sort of a very, very, very, very little trauma. But these things can take on a life of their own and grow and sit and simmer and so on. And that's the sort of thing that certainly Hypnotherapists can work with. And on the other side of this equation is if you had that situation, if, if, let's say I was in psychoanalysis and going to see a psychoanalyst three times a week and had been doing for 10 years.
And I went and I said that, I mean, I could be doing them into service, but I don't think so. They wouldn't have anything to do with it. And
Yeah.
probably the best thing about hypnosis is that it can really make a difference. There are techniques within it, the processing, the underlying understanding that you can get and you can change things.
Hmm.
Whereas to, to talk about making a mistake like that in analysis or even in person centered counseling, you'd get the
validation.
Empathy, you'd get the, the person there saying, yeah, I, I understand what you are experiencing. You get validation. It's okay, but it doesn't change it. So that's, that's the big thing. And I'm sure you've had this before, and we've probably mentioned it before, that we get people coming to us who gain the awareness through their therapy, their counseling. Whatever it, it may be. They've gained the awareness, but it hasn't made a difference.
And that's the key thing with hypnotherapy is it can change it. Makes a difference. Makes a change. I mean, I don't suppose for a moment that she does listen to this, but if Emily Atack was listening to this, I'd really like to encourage her to go and see a hypnotherapist and say, Can we just work on these embarrassing things? I mean, it sounds like she's had rather a lot of them. But then that sort of goes along with the persona of a comic, doesn't it?
Hmm. Yeah. So if somebody has some embarrassing experiences, things they can't get outta their head, a hypnotherapist is a good place to go for that. And they're gonna help you with that, not just because you can share it with somebody else who's non-judgmental. But because they can actually help you to dissolve it so that it gets less and less of an issue, it, it becomes insignificant. It's just a memory that becomes a knowledge.
I know that that happened rather than I'm still living in that memory. So that's embarrassment and maybe even guilt over some things. It'd be good to talk that through and, and learn to keep things in its place. But then you've got the deeper things like shame over experiences you've been involved in.
Maybe something happened to you when the flight or flight response kicked in, but instead of fighting or fleeing, you froze and you had to accept the experience that you had cuz you were, you were young or your brain was. Stuck and you just didn't know what to do, and you are ashamed that you couldn't fight off an attacker, for example.
A hypnotherapist might be able to help with that, but somebody who's also a psychotherapist might be able to do some much more efficient and more effective and safer work there to help you process what happened, but without being re-traumatized every single week when you go back for therapy. Because that's, that's not gonna help.
But sometimes people go into therapy, they're go and start their therapy journey with a, with a hypnotherapist, and then they have to move modalities, move on to something else. That's not a problem.
Yeah. Let's say, let's say you've got a really good relationship with your counselor or psychotherapist and everything's going really nicely, but you feel that there's need in, in discussion between you, you feel there's a need to do something more specific. There's no reason why you can't work with a hypnotherapist as well as uh, sometimes people get this bizarre idea that you could only see one therapist at a time. Where's that come from? Where, where's, where's? That's a bit. Yes.
Yeah. I wonder if therapists just get worried that another therapist is just gonna be stepping on their toes or something, or be a better therapist maybe.
Yeah. It's, it's, it's a.
Yeah. It's a shame because you're gonna get two different ideas and attitudes and perspectives from two different people, and that's a good thing. That's okay. That's not gonna contradict, I doubt. They'll probably compliment each other quite nicely because we, we do that with supervision, don't we?
Yeah.
Yeah. It's quite normal to have a supervisor that you'd go to to talk about your trauma clients and the trauma work that you do, and another supervisor that you go to to talk about the behavioural side of what you do. Those two supervisors have got two different approaches and the therapist learns from both of them.
Yes, absolutely. And, speaking as a supervisor, if I have a supervisee who says that another supervisor has given them different input. Internally. In my head I go, Ooh, that's interesting. Great. Let's thrash that out. I don't go, oh my God, that's I'm challenged. And they, oh dear. No, we don't do that. And if you think about other careers, I just, I just had the idea, you know, if, if somebody went to train as a chef with Gordon Ramsey.
That doesn't mean that they can't read a book by Raymond Blanc does it. You know, they can, they can get input and you know, one of those is going to cook their risotto one way and another's gonna cook it another way. It doesn't mean that you can't read both and make your own choices. So why would it be any different in therapy? It's, it's okay to mix and match and try different things and different people for different aspects of what you're going through. So it's all okay. Yeah.
which is why it's perfectly acceptable to be seeing a counselor for every, no, every two weeks for a couple of years. And one of the things that you talk about in that therapy session is wanting to pass a driving test. And like you say, that counselor is gonna validate the fact that you're upset that you haven't passed your driving test. But wouldn't it be a great idea to then go, oh, but next week I've booked in with a hypnotherapist and I'm gonna do something a little bit different.
That counselor should go as I've done when similar things have happened to me. Good stuff. Go and learn as much as you can. Fantastic. Take it. Take it seriously. Take your personal development seriously. look forward to hearing all about it when you come back in. Maybe there's something that I can learn from that. It's fine.
absolutely. Yeah. If you approached a Jungian analyst to say, I've got nerves for my driving test, well, I don't quite know what response you'd get, but it wouldn't be a positive one.
It'd be a weird one
I mean, I'm sure they'd be polite about it, but that's not what they're about.
No.
So yes. those sorts of things are what you go to a hypnotherapist for primarily. Yeah. Start there.
I remember when I first came to you back in 2003, freshly qualified and full of enthusiasm. Not that that enthusiasm has uh, faded anyway, I'm still just as enthusiastic. So often I'd be saying, oh, it's been another week of nothing but smoking cessation and weight loss, because there was so much of that to do as a hypnotherapist, and that's what was all over my leaflets, that I'd, that I'd printed off on my little black and white printer that I had back in the day.
Quit smoking, lose weight, hypnotherapy works, and just shoved it through everybody's letter boxes in a 15 mile radius. Because things like habit control, learning to leave a little bit of food on your plate, learning to become a non-smoker, those sorts of things, they're absolute bread and butter to a hypnotherapist.
Providing, you know, if there's anything else going on underneath that, the reason for the weight gain or the reason for you smoking or struggling or whatever isn't because of something else that's deeper seated.
Yeah. And that's, that's another one of those d you don't know, you don't know situations. And that's just made me think, I don't think we've done an episode specifically on weight, have we? And it is spring. And spring is the time when people often start to really think, oh, so should we do that? Should we do that soon?
Yeah. Some of the surface level stuff.
Yeah, not eating disorders. We'll, we'll keep it specifically to not, we're not talking about eating disorders, we're talking about ordinary wanting to lose a little bit of weight because it's spring.
Yeah, not next week, because next week we've got another guest, doesn't we? We've got
I think we do, don't we? Do we not have Gordon?
aha. Gordon. Yes,
not sure of. I'm not sure of the schedule, but I know we're talking to Gordon next time.
Yeah, it is, it is. It's Gordon next time talking about trauma, which would be uh, quite a follow on.
Talking of trauma, we will talk to Gordon about trauma.
Yeah. That'd be quite an interesting thing cuz Gordon's, yeah, Gordon's very knowledgeable when it comes to trauma. I've not seen Gordon since 2019. I've not seen him for ages.
Oh,
Yeah.
that's very sad for you
Yeah, I've not been
to Gordon. Talking to Gordon's, always a lovely
Yeah, he's He's a lovely lad, isn't he? Lad he's not a lad. Well, thanks for joining us today.
and I hope it hasn't been too boring. But it seemed like an important thing to, to lay it all out there.
Yeah, and, and I think there's still a lot of education that people need about what hypnosis actually is and what it isn't. Yeah. So we're never gonna stop talking about it. We love it.
Well, we've been, we are big fans of it, aren't we? We, we, we'd love hypnosis and I mean, yes, I, I use it. Somebody the other day was, well it was that alarm thing that the government tested on our phones the other Sunday.
I was in a restaurant.
um, one of my family said, oh, I think they're all putting us all into hypnosis. It was just a joke. But I said, but I'm always in hypnosis anyway.
Yeah, it's, it's just a matter of degree isn't it? We're always focused on one thing or another, so we better bring the episode to a close for another week. So thank you very much for joining us, everybody, and we'll be back next week where we'll be talking with Gordon Buky Webster about trauma, which is gonna be something that Everybody needs to learn a little bit more about if they don't already know loads already, which we probably don't. So let's learn a little bit more.
So I'll leave you to it. Have a super duper week. See you next week. Bye for now, everybody.
Bye.