Good day everyone. Look at that. It's yet another episode of Therapy Natters, the weekly podcast that gives you a chance to spend half an hour or so learning a little bit more about yourself and other people as well in the process. I'm psychotherapist Richard Nicholls, and fellow psychotherapist, Fiona Biddle joins me as always. All right there, Fiona, are you well?
I, I am And, and thank you for waving when you introduce yourself. So I'll wave as well. Yes. Hello.
I'm quite the gesticulator.
Actually, it's something when I've got a client in hypnosis, I'm usually gesticulating and they've got their eyes closed, but I, I I laugh at myself for doing it, but
I do that. I'm glad I'm not alone. I, I do it with, I do it when I'm recording podcasts. Cause I've recorded podcast every Friday for Patreon and I'm getting really passionate and I, I'm holding my fists together and I'm, and I'm pointing, oh, smacking my microphone right now as I do it, I'm waving my arms all over the place.
I, expect everybody well, not everybody, but a lot of people can relate to that on phone calls that they might do that. But do you know that gestures come before the thoughts in the brain? The gesture is first. That's according to Ian McGilchrist.
The unconscious is sending a motor action request to move and then you start thinking, oh, okay, that makes sense to me. Cause I do, I do a lot of movement and that does help me think.
And the ones in the left side of the body are representing something happening in the right side of the brain and vice versa. So, there, there is a difference between if there's gesture is in your right hand or your left as to it's meaning.
we will talk about this
We will, we, we really need to get onto McGilchrist. We keep
Yeah. You spoke about him a few
But we haven't really done him. I feel a bit daunted cuz it's daunting stuff, but we'll get
Hey, maybe we could get him on. That'd be a bit much though, wouldn't it? Really? you don't, hey, shy kids don't get sweets. As a, as a podcast listener once said to me when they're asking me for a favor, shy kids don't get sweets. I think it was a northern thing. He said, well, I thought I'm keeping that phrase, I like that shy kids don't get sweets. Love it. We're recording this on the Friday of the, it's the coronation this weekend. So I don't know if it all went well. I'm assuming it did.
Cuz when this has come out on the Wednesday, we'll have already have blown over cause we've got another bank holiday weekend. are you gonna swear in allegiance to, to God and the king?
Oh, is it God on the king? Oh.
Oh well I think I originally it was I, whether they've changed it slightly, I
I will swear,
just an allegiance to the
I will swear allegiance to the king, but I've, I've been pondering what the word allegiance means. That's quite an interesting one, isn't it? Because it, it sort of has a, a sort of bow and scrape sort of feel about it. And that's not what it's about though, is it? But yes, I'm, I'm, I'm, getting into the spirit of it, so why not?
do my best
I've just got my father home from the hospital after two months and I was so, so pleased he was back in time for it. This is his third coronation, fifth monarch, but he doesn't remember the first one cuz he was
Could imagine he doesn't
was only 4, 3,
Yeah.
And he doesn't remember much about Queen Elizabeth because it was on telly, but nobody had a telly so. Most people don't recall much. So seems a, a big thing. So
Hmm.
I'll get
Have you got mug? Have you got a Coronation mug?
Uh, No. I've got biscuits.
Coronation biscuits?
Yeah, M and S coronation biscuit tin.
Uh, They're not Duchy biscuits. They're missed a trick there, haven't they?
That's, I think there's Scottish shortbread, I think I haven't opened it in, but
nice. We, we've binned it ages ago, but we, I I did have kicking around a 1950s, queen Elizabeth, the, the second coronation mug.
You didn't just bin it, did you? You couldn't have just simply thrown it away.
Yeah, I think so. I think it, maybe it got cracked. I don't know, but I, I, I reckon I'm quite good at throwing things away, you see I know a lot of people aren't. My, my, my wife used to collect mugs when she was little, so there's a lot of mugs in my in-laws loft. We're talking dozens and dozens and dozens of mugs. Oh no, they're not in the loft anymore cuz they were having a clear out and went Here I found your mugs cuz they didn't want to throw them away.
So they put them in a great big box and gave them to us. Dash, they're in our garage. Of course they're in the garage. Isn't everybody's rubbish in their garage? Who puts a car in a garage anymore?
the house I live in now doesn't have a loft or a garage, which is actually really useful cuz when I did have both they were absolutely full. And when I moved outta that place, it took me so long to sort through the stuff because it was just, oh, just put that in the loft. Would you just, just put that in the loft?
It's, it, it's not a good idea, but I, I, I totally get why people hold onto stuff because we hold memories in things, and for most people, throwing away things doesn't throw away the memory, but for some it does.
Have you seen that, meme that's been going around saying that the meaning of being an adult is saying, that's a really good cardboard box I might need it someday. But there are things, there was one thing I bought some um, just plain red uh, cotton material at a market and I sort of thought that could come in handy one day. And then some years later, quite a few years later, probably, 15 or so years later, I suddenly had to make two father Christmas outfits for a Christmas play,
Yeah.
so it,
that's, and that's it did, but there is a bit of a problem that if that's, if that's your personality, that you store things just in case, if you couple that with that sort of, What if thinking. A lot of people struggle with What if? And if that is a personality issue that you've got. If that's hardwired into you to think, what if, well, what if I need it? What if somebody else needs it? We end up having a house full of stuff. And I was thinking about this for two reasons.
One, totally coincidentally next week, week commencing the 15th is national Hoarding Awareness Week, which was a complete surprise to me. Didn't know about that. And the only reason I found out is cuz I was Googling hoarding because we had an email from, I'm just trying to move my. Window out of the way so I can see it. Question submission from here we are Lynn from Birmingham. Lynn says, could you speak about hoarding, please? This is something I've struggled with for all of my adult life.
In fact, even as a teenager, I would find it hard to let go of my old toys. I live alone and can't bear the thought of someone coming into my home and seeing what I've done to it. My work colleagues would never guess what a state, my home is in as I present myself very tidily. But enough is enough. I have to change, but there's a part of me that doesn't want to. I wish I could get another house for me and have my old house for my things, but I know I'd just fill the new one too.
I will tackle this and I know I need a therapist to help me, but I know I can't be alone in this and wish I could have had the help sooner before things got so bad. Maybe somebody listening can nip their problem in the bud. Thank you both. Lynn. Which I thought was was really nice to read. Thank you very much for writing in Lynn and sharing your troubles, cuz
And certainly you are not alone, but as we've said so many times on so many issues, there's a continuum
Yeah.
Holding onto a piece of red fabric because it might come in handy. And knowing it somewhere in the loft when I had one to the extent that Lynn is talking about where she can't let or feel she can't let people into her house because of the effect that it's, it's having. So just collecting, I mean, we start at the, the lower end where it's sort of beginning perhaps to become something
Oh yeah. you can collect some mugs and it's not a problem to have a mug collection, but it's a problem if your mug collection is so big you can't cook in your kitchen. And, and that is how you identify hoarding as a disorder as opposed to, well, I, I've just got a lot of stuff. I've got a messy house. There's a big difference between I've got a messy house and somebody's got a hoarding disorder.
And, and I think one of the, the biggest ways of identifying the difference between I've just got a lot of stuff, I'm quite untidy. And having a problematic disorder like this. Think about this, if this is you, How would you feel if somebody came in and cleaned it for you? If you would be relieved, oh, thank goodness for that. Look how tidy that is now. Oh, thank goodness for that. Then that's not a disorder. You don't have a problem. You're just a little untidy, maybe a lot untidy.
But if the idea of somebody coming in and cleaning your house for you and tidying up terrifies you, if that makes you feel that you could be sick. Then that's an indicator that there might be something else going on here that needs more work. It really is, and I, and I want everybody to recognize that, cuz if hoarding is more popular than people thought.
And when I saw some stats a couple of months ago when I was looking at it, I remember comparing it to schizophrenia in that everybody's heard of that. That's a common condition. People may even know somebody who's got it and takes medication for it, and I think that's about 2%, but somewhere between one and two. Yeah, probably about 2% of the population. Whereas I think hoarding disorder is somewhere between five and 10%.
So there's, there's a lot of people out there now if you know 20 or 30 people, that's a classroom of kids. Yeah. One of them is gonna have hoarding disorder.
Actually disorder, cuz we've discussed this before about when you, we, you, whoever, shoves the word disorder on the end of something.
Yeah.
it is, again, going back to that continuum, has it actually got to the point of being a disorder? And to use your usual phrase, something is only a problem if it causes a problem. But there have been a couple of TV series, haven't they, on hoarding where the, the experts will help the person to clear out. And I mean, I've, I've not, I, I actually found it quite painful to watch those things. It makes me uncomfortable.
Well, you know, those people are in pain
Because, yeah, it's, it's the pain. You can feel it. But sometimes it gets to the point where it's positively dangerous. I mean, there've been cases of people dying from fires or ceiling
You, cause they're collecting newspapers and things like that's a
Yeah. So yeah, some horrible stories collapses and being buried beneath. So, yeah. That obviously is to the point where it's a problem.
I think a lot of research is still being done compared to researching to things like schizophrenia, because up until fairly recently, it was just a, a symptom of O C D.
It was lumped together in the DSM as as one type of O C D, wasn't it?
Up until, I think 2013, something like that, and it only got separated in the international database. The I C D I think 2018 when that was separated out from O C D, so, It's not really been looked into in great detail. So more stories need to be told. More people need to speak to specialists so that this does get researched. Cause if nobody comes forward and says, this is a problem I've got
yes, people will hide this because I would imagine there's a, there would be a strong propensity for people to say, stop being so silly,
Yeah.
which they don't say about schizophrenia as an example.
Oh, even, even O C D, I mean, more people are likely to potentially say, oh, you're being ridiculous. But they still understand, this is not their fault. They
they know that there's something going on, whereas I think that people who hoard are very likely to have had the experiences saying, just, just throw it out. What earth you doing? Just, just deal with it. Get a skip.
and that is literally the last thing you should do. But, but some of those TV shows, they did do that. That, that was the point of the TV show. And I, I know in some of the ones I saw in the two thousands, there were some psychological specialists who were there to go, right, let's do this properly. But that doesn't always make entertaining telly what they want, especially if there's a budget and they wanna do things quickly. We're just gonna do a makeover. This person's got an untidy house.
Let's have a, let's make a makeover show and let's tidy it up so that they can walk back into their house with their hands over their eyes, and they're ready to have a look. And they take their hands away from their eyes and go, ah, wonderful. What have you done? This is gorgeous. This is beautiful. No,
Cause what if, what if they, what if they need the radio times from 1975 to see what time top of the pops was on? Now they
Seven o'clock, always. Seven o'clock.
now you say it, yes. But you might need to check. And there's another funny thing with this in terms of TV programs in that some people with massive collections of things get praised and glorified for how wonderful to have your whole house filled with coronation or royal memorabilia. So much so that you don't have anywhere that you can sit. But isn't this wonderful? It's so exciting and British quirky and that's,
you'd be on the middle pages of the local, the, the local Echo local paper if they still exist.
so that's an odd one that can be glorified as being a wonderful thing.
Yeah. And back to that phrase, you know, it's not a problem unless it's causing problems. And if it's causing problems because you cannot move in your own house. Because like Lynn recognizes there, she says, if I had a bigger house or another house well this wouldn't be a problem. And that's when it needs examining and looking at and going, oh wait, is it just that you've got a small house? Cause we, we do have a culture nowadays of. Stuff.
We are a, we're very much a materialistic, stuff is great culture. I, I try not to buy things if I can avoid it, and that's not me being tight. But I don't want stuff. I mean, if I look behind me here, look at, I got, there's a load of DVDs. Look, this dv, this packet, I bought this for my wife for Christmas. It's still in its cellophane because it's two, it's a pack of two. It's TV show called Pushing Daisies really good TV show. Really enjoyed it. Saw it on the telly, thought she'd like that.
And we did. But 2009. It's still in its cellophane because, well, we saw the TV show and actually I did download it and watched it again with my son cuz I thought he'd like it and he did. Great series shouldn't have been canceled, grr still annoyed about that, now. Maybe that's why I've kept the D V D.
But do you have a DVD player?
Somewhere, oh there's, oh, oh. Now I know why we've kept it. Look,
Oh, that's so sweet.
it's still in the cellophane. This has been Stella taped onto it. My son's gonna love this. Yeah, mum love Billy in
childish handwriting. Is very sweet. Yeah,
we never opened it. So he bought her this. Right. So that's why we've still got this twin set. D V D. Oh, I'll put that with Trainspotting and Sweeney Todd.
But that thing you said about, you've got a DVD but somewhere it's, I've got one, but I dunno how to attach it to anything anymore.
And yet I've got, there's rows and rows look at all of these. All the Spider-Man, Batman, the Prisoner, complete series of the Prisoner. I've also got those on download.
got my DVDs in a spare bedroom, so I only look at them when I'm doing the ironing. And just the other day I was walking past and thinking, what's the point of these? But then I carried on walking. But it's not a problem because they're there in the spare room and it's not needed for anything else.
but if we are always showing our love for somebody by giving them a gift and we stick a little piece of A 5 paper on it with To mum, love Billy. We're not gonna throw that away, are we?
Because it means throwing away the memory of that small child, which is why we've still got a lot of stuff in our loft from when Billy was five at school making stuff, why my mum, even though I'm 47, my mum she has a little Christmas card that I made at primary school when I was probably about six, just a piece of red card folded in half, you know, with some cotton wool glued onto it for Santa's face, that cotton wool still stuck on it. She's been very careful with it.
Brings it out every Christmas, puts it on a little tree. It's been over 40 years, but throwing away that card will feel like throwing away me. And of course it's not, but for somebody with a hoarding disorder, they'll attach that emotion to almost anything. And if you couple that with that catastrophizing of, but if I throw it away, this could happen. Somebody could want it.
And then I've let them down and you couple that with anthropomorphizing, which is something that I spotted in some research. The ability that we all have to see non-human things as human. Usually it's animals. That dog looks guilty is a common one on social media. You'll see, look at his guilty face. That's not. Dogs don't experience guilt. They don't have the frontal lobes that we've got to have that cognition. But look at his face. Yeah, it's just being a dog. It's fight or flight response.
It's probably scared, you know? Have you, have you. Have you looked at it funny yourself? Is that you, that's done that? Yes. That the dog is scared. He's not guilty, but we do anthropomorphise stuff. My wife has a shoe collection. I love my wife dearly, she's got rid of a lot of shoes, but she's still got about 120 pairs. For two feet. It's a lot of shoes. But she can't bear to throw them away because they're so pretty. Okay. Then that's a shoe collection. That's not a problem.
You're collecting them because they're well designed. I get it, but if somebody's collecting flip flops that they found in the street because somebody might need it one day. How could they do that to them? How could they throw that away? And that's what you'll hear some people with hoarding disorders say about a lot of stuff. How could they throw that away? How could they do that to them? They are them-ing and humanizing, anthropomorphizing the flip flop.
Or the terracotta panda, which is what popped into my head a couple of months ago when I was speaking about this on my podcast, If you an anthropomorphize stuff, you're gonna find it really hard to throw it away cuz it feels like throwing away a person. And it genuinely does. If you speak to people with this disorder, they will describe the feeling. It is like putting a child in the bin. It is like throwing away a, a baby. I, I can't do that. You just can't do that.
But they know that it's not, they know it's just a pot creature, but it feels like putting a baby in the bin. And it is just because they don't like the idea that the world is so wasteful. And let's see if any of this could be useful for somebody. But if somebody also has troubles, let's say, because a huge percentage, I think one study I saw it was, I think 90%, it was 90 something. It wasn't as high as 95, so I'm gonna say 90 to be cautious.
90% of people with hoarding disorder had trauma growing up, there were traumatic experiences growing up. Like you say, often there is a gradient of trauma. It could be as simple in inverted commas as parents separating when they were young, or it could be further down the trauma gradient of inflicting regular physical or emotional pain on somebody.
In a repeated way and creating complex trauma, at least, well, more than 90% of the people with hoarding disorder had had experiences like that in some way. That gave them, as they were growing up, this feeling that they need to try and control their external world because it's so chaotic. That needs work. You can't just concentrate on the hoarding behavior. You need to look at what's going on underneath.
I guess that's, that indicates to me that they didn't have the opportunity to learn how to relate to things and people in an adaptive way.
Maybe things were safe, they could control them. They were there, they were stable. They weren't gonna shout at them or ridicule them or hurt them cause they were just a a, a terracotta panda it was gonna be harmless.
And of course the, again, back to, it's not a problem unless it causes a problem. That's, that's fine with something. I mean it, when you said that, it made me think of some books I had as a child that I would never get rid of or um, some cuddly toys that I had, and I still do that now. I. Get them sometimes and and anthropomorphize them, but you know, that's, that's okay. But, so it's not that we shouldn't have relationship with things at all. It's the degree of it.
But perhaps we ought to start thinking about what is to be done. And I found just a very short section on the Mind website mind.org uk which I thought was really quite straightforward. And it says, together with your therapist, you might, and then there's three bullet points. Firstly, examine your beliefs about needing to keep things. Second one is try to understand why it's hard for you to get rid of things. And thirdly, learn skills to help you cope with difficult feelings.
A hundred percent.
Yeah, it's nicely, nicely expressed, isn't it? And I think people would be able to go, yeah. Okay, so beliefs about needing to keep things. Okay, so what are, what are my beliefs? What am I thinking? And you know, some of the things you've, you've just said there, Richard about the what if and
Mm-hmm.
anthropomorphizing the things. Then those are those sorts of beliefs about the need.
One of the biggest things that gets hoarded is craft stuff.
Oh,
is things for making. Yeah.
I do that,
Yeah,
but that's,
because you might
yes. Yeah. my father back from hospital after two months, and so I'm staying with him for a few days and I brought my embroidery. I forgot my needles.
Oh,
But I
that's a problem.
I think my mother's embroidery drawer is still intact. We haven't done anything with it since she died. And I went up and yes, there was a selection so I could choose some embroidery needles. yeah, but the, again, not a problem because needles don't take up very much space.
When my wife's granddad died, we went through his shed. It was a few years ago now. There was a lot of jars of rusty nails, lots of them. All these nails that will come in handy one day. All different, different sizes, different types, but he didn't wanna throw them away just in case. And lots of angle iron. There was lots of stuff that might come in handy. I can make something with that. That's a nice piece of wood that lots of things. Metal wood, bits of old pallet.
I can make something with that. No you're not. You're 90. What are you gonna do? Whatcha gonna do with that old pallet? Come on, Bill. What are you doing man? And yeah, we wished he got rid of it. When he, when he was alive and recognized, I don't need these jars of rusty nails, he would come back from car boot sales with more jars of nails. These will come in handy. Got these for a quid. What a bargain Bill. Shall I deal with that when you're dead? Shall I? Shall I? Yep.
I mean, when, when you're talking, it makes perfect sense to me. Well, yes, because whenever I do need a a nail, I never can find one of the right size. So, sounds like Bill's got the right idea here.
well, uh, I mean, if I look in this room, there are lots of bill's, things that he found. There's a hammer that he found on the floor when he was about 10, he said, he found that on the floor in the gutter in 1930. Maybe he nicked it. Yeah, he could have nicked it off somebody and just said he found it in the gutter, for all I know. It's just a tiny hammer. My wife couldn't throw it away. The same with the hand drill. Oh, she couldn't throw it away.
It's, it's there in, in my office, along with a few ornaments that belonged to her grandmother when she was alive. These things that we just can't throw away. We just can't. And I get it if it's just one shelf of stuff, but if it's a house, lot of stuff, we need to challenge those beliefs about why they're there.
My grandmother carried the brochure from the hotel where she spent her honeymoon in her handbag all her life, and my parents went to sort the house out She was in a nursing home, so her room out
Hmm.
when she died, when they came home, I said, what happened to the brochure from. Oh, dunno about that. No, we just chucked everything. I was, oh no, I'm still holding onto that. That was in 97. Haven't let go.
when
father doesn't know I'm holding onto it and he can't hear me, so it's okay.
he won't listen to this, will. when my wife's granddad died, I'm remembering now his funeral and, and they'd found that in his wallet was a flower and it was a flower that he bought off my wife's grandma when they met, she was selling flowers
Oh.
and he bought it and asked her out, and she said yes, and he kept the flower that he bought. One of the first times he really met her, he kept it for 70 years in his wallet cuz he just couldn't throw it away. And I think God's that's beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Could you imagine the pain of throwing that away, of losing his wallet if it got stolen? The pain of that, that is how somebody feels with hoarding disorder. If you throw away their old magazines, that is how it feels.
It's genuinely that painful. and that cannot, be exaggerated. It's, it's, it's true. I'm, I'm not making it up. So to go into somebody's house and go, I know what we need to do here. We just need to get everything in the skip and get it gone. No, it, the trauma of that is just unreal. And the, the problem will not go away. That is not a cure. That is, it's not anything. It's not even a treatment. It it, it is sticking a sticking plaster on a cesarean operation scar. That'll hold it.
No, no won't. It's really not. Well, I can't see the problem now cuz there's, all these sticking plasters on it. So the problem isn't there, right? No, the problem is there and. It, it's just gonna open up and you're gonna make a mess. And that is what would happen.
So if you know somebody who's going through this or you're trying to help somebody, I, I, I'd hate to think that somebody who's maybe not experienced or qualified or is accidentally working outside of their scope of competence, if they're a therapist, cuz therapists do listen to this. This isn't just for clients.
All sorts of people listen, and, and I know it's probably tempting if somebody, especially if they're, a hypnotherapist, for example, because people do go to hypnotherapist for behavioral stuff. And they go, all right, great, let's work out a plan of how to make this happen. You, you, you can't just sit there with a family and go, right, so you're gonna get a skip and you're gonna throw everything away. Let's work out how to do that. No, we need to look at distress intolerance first.
And then you do some graded exposure. You teach people how to regulate their emotions, teach people distraction techniques, as well as emotional regulation, how to slow the heart rate down, how to do all this sort of stuff that we do as therapists and go, right, what's the littlest thing that you can do? The smallest thing that that can put a dent in this, no matter how small the dent is. One magazine, one roll of newspaper or whatever it is.
Just what's one little thing that we can deal with here and you find the the easiest thing to deal with and you work your way up whilst you are working on the trauma of all of this. And the reasons like the, the thought processes that contribute to this as well as the originating causes, like potentially attachment issues in childhood, if you're attached to stuff instead of people, because people can't be trusted.
That needs work, you need to work on that and sometimes, Just being in therapy is enough. We don't need particular tools and techniques. They just need to be in therapy, creating a secure attachment with the therapist and that can dilute down the attachment issues they've got with all their mugs and magazines and what have yous.
And I think was the word tolerance. Did you use the word tolerance? Yeah.
yeah. Distress intolerance, Distress tolerance.
distress tolerance. I think one. Really crucial aspect is to help people to be able to tolerate regret,
Yeah,
because if somebody does get to the point where they're going to get rid of a lot of their stuff, then they need to be prepared for the fact that it could be that something goes, that they later regret.
and that's
and that's okay. And they,
Because you, you you did what you did at that time for a reason. You thought it was the right thing to do. We, we, we can't have those regrets. The past is the past.
So that's an important factor. I did want to mention about the charity. There is a charity called Hoarding uk website hoarding uk.org, which has lots of helpful information and resources so,
Super duper.
I think they do provide therapy, but it might be only local. I know it's London based, but I'm not sure about
do some training for therapists as well. If they wanted to understand a bit more about it so that they didn't work outside of the scope of competence, they've probably got stuff going on. Cause it is, like we say, it's hoarding awareness week next week. And they do do individual trainings, looking at a dropdown full day, half day training for probably social workers and, and therapists, UK CP B A CP accredited therapists I'd have thought. Hmm.
There's one here called space time stuff. This is an event, a safe space to explore artistically in a range of forms the impact of hoarding on the lives of those acted,
Hmm.
hmm.
Let's see. Now I'm looking at it thinking, oh, I need to go to this. They even do a conference. There's a conference this year. Oh, it's next week, 18th of May.
I'll see you there.
Yeah. On the 10 year anniversary of the clinical recognition of hoarding behavior, have things improved? Oh, I wonder if the answer is gonna be Probably not. We'll see. Yes, it's, it's been 10 years since the DSM classified hoarding disorder.
Yep. There's a poem on there on that space time stuff link. I won't read it all, but it's, I think that could be a good thing for people to look at a poem.
Well, I'll add some, I'll add some links into the show notes so people can find out a little more about hoarding if they want to find out more, whether it's for themselves or helping others, understanding a family member or a friend better. and if you've got any questions about it and you wanna follow up on this, fire away. You know? We'll, we are here every week. We've got nothing else to do
Gosh, no. But we, we, we are. And now you've mentioned at the beginning another episode. We are on episode 60, so, and since 50 we've been doing our alternate ones with guests. So next week we will have another guest.
Yes, it's Lauren next week talking about fertility. Indeed. Look forward to that. So let's love them and leave them. As always, Fiona. Like I say, I'll put some notes into the description below in your app. Whiochever app you use to listen to this podcast, there'll be some notes there that link to hoarding UK and a few of the different things as well as how to submit some questions to us if you've got a topic idea you'd like to share with us. So I'll leave you to it. Have a super-duper week.
Speak to you next time. See ya.
Bye everyone.