And hello to you, therapy fans it's time for The podcast series, where two psychotherapists natter about I'm Richard Nicholls. And with me as always is my good friend and colleague Fiona Biddle. Hi there. Fiona, how are you?
That, that made me laugh. I hope somebody is listening. Yes. I guess we do hope somebody's listening.
Well, we do know that people are listening cause, um, well we get the And actually, actually we, I had an email from them that Let me tell you exactly what it was. Um, it just came through, it was last week. Congratulations. Your podcast has had 5,500 downloads. I thought Oh that's nice. That's 5,500 little bits of help that we've put across to people. That's sweet. Imagine seeing all those people in a room.
That is, that is lovely. Yes. I remember one time, uh, when I was at a seminar with somebody talking about how And I just said, how many of those were you? Which, um, got a bit of a chuckle. But in this case, I certainly haven't been listening to our own podcasts. I presume you haven't either.
No, I, I hear them enough when I'm editing them down.
Yes, exactly.
So we've got a couple of questions today that we're going to try There is a little bit of overlap that I, I think we can explore.
Yeah, it might seem tenuous to start with, but you will understand, Richard?
Go for it. Yes, please.
Okay. The first one is a question from Jackie and she says, I have had a And I do believe that she has displayed varying behaviours of Over the last few years, I have had no contact as it got to a stage where I It has been difficult and I have a lot of guilt around going no contact. She recently sent me a letter asking to reconnect. I am scared and hesitant as I'm concerned that I again, will I'm conflicted in what to do for the best.
Do you have any advice on how to deal with a situation like this? I'd be very grateful. Now we will get into some of the detail of that in a few minutes, This is from James. James says I am stuck and don't know how to help my wife with her weight loss. My wife, after our children, continued to gain weight, it's never The extra weight now has physical side effects, such as limited movement, Going for walks and playing kick around in the park.
Even down to moving around the house, doing some cleaning, I want to help, but don't know how. I can see she's trying, but how do I help? I know it's my problem and get frustrated at myself that I don't know how to help I don't want an argument or for her to think any different of me. If I say it wrong. Her inaction and sitting on the sofa and not helping herself frustrates me.
So the overlap between those two is that there's something in the external And they want to know what they can do to influence it. So they're both got similarities, even though it sounds like these are I feel for everybody involved in this. Everybody. Everybody's struggling here. 4, Yeah. Everybody in those relationships are struggling in some way, shape or form. And I think the secret, if there was one secret, the foundations to all of this And I say practicing.
Meaning it's not just 24 hours, seven days a week being non-judgemental And there are times you won't be. There are times you'll judge.
Well, as human beings, we judge, we do it all the time. So to be nonjudgmental is an active choice to make, you know, we, we do It's completely unavoidable, but it's then what you do with it In Therapy, there's a concept from Carl Rogers of, unconditional positive regard. Going back to what Richard was quoting in the last session of everybody is
Yeah.
So that really says that we don't have any right to judge anybody So with unconditional positive regard, the idea is that you view Maybe their behavior isn't and the one that always comes up when we discuss Can you have unconditional positive regard for Hitler
He liked his dogs.
And he was vegetarian.
Yes, I was gonna say he was vegetarian. He'd got some ethics.
Yes.
He knew his own mind.
He could paint,
Oh yeah. He was a painter wasn't he. Yes,
but the, the
really hard. Isn't it?
it's really challenging, but the essence is that as a person, you have And obviously with Hitler, there's plenty of that, that we can judge and
Bringing that more into the present day. We look at what Putin has been doing in Eastern Europe and And a lot of it is still very, very recent history. The changes in the Soviet union. It's a little easier for me to see, oh, I can see why he's doing this. He's scared. For whatever reason Putin is scared, and this is how he's going to defend himself. This is how he's going to defend this country.
Maybe he sees the rest of Europe as a threat, and it's a good thing for And that certainly doesn't excuse. It doesn't make what Hitler and Putin have done. It doesn't make it acceptable, but it comes from a place of We all just need to sit around a table and go, let's just be friends. And we aren't going to be a threat and we're not going to nuke each other. Everything's going to be okay, and we go all right then. You can have your country back. If only.
But from Jackie and James's perspective, I think knowing that there is a history There's other stuff that has gone on that has led those people to that point. I think is a, is a good starting block to go, okay, I get why they
Both of them seem to be trying hard to be non-judgemental And going back to the idea that it is an aim, it's a, you know, this is laudable Jackie says she's seen signs of narcissistic personality disorder. At the time of recording the Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard trial is still ongoing. And there've been psychiatrists as witnesses there who have made Going back to that episode that we did a while ago on labels.
And I would suggest to Jackie, if she was sitting here in front of That might be more helpful, might be more acceptable, to her mother as well, They're not in some sort of lack of awareness. They might well not admit it, but they do sort of know it. So move away from that. And for James, I think he should really just forgive himself for He wants to help his wife. but is getting nowhere.
So when he sees her, as he says, sitting on the sofa, And doing That's, that's a judgment, but feels helpless. And that's a problem when somebody feels helpless.
Hmm. Yeah, but it sounds like his wife is feeling fairly helpless. And maybe that's a conversation to have. If this was something scripted, people could sit down and say. Hun, I know that you're in pain and I know that it's hard for you to get motivated. And I see the struggles that you're going through. And I hear the stories from around the world of people that recover from And if there are some steps that you want to take I'm with you, I'm with you Here to motivate you, if you want.
I'm here to join any regime. I'm here to learn about what's carbohydrates and what's protein, and And if you want some help on I'm on your side. If you want, I'm here for you, it's not easy to say those things.
And both of them have the same or similar issue that the Um, Jackie's mother has reached out to her, so she has spoken, but Jackie, her mother, which would obviously be difficult, but it might be sensible to, whatever safe location can think of. And for Jackie to say, actually, you know, mum, I feel scared.
I, Yeah. I think it's important to use I statements because to say you scared me, You gas lit, but you manipulated me. That's going nowhere you know, no one wins. Cause you can't, nobody can argue with the fact when you say, I feel scared, argument. The answer might be, you don't need to feel that way. I know, I know, and I don't want to be, and thank you for reaching Thanks for agreeing to meet. Um, thanks for wanting me in your life.
Thanks for being the parent, because if we're honest and we, we hear these stories and the children are always expecting the parents to be the parent, to be the adult And the adults, the parent might be struggling to be the one that does that
And also because of their own fear of being rejected There's all sorts of things that could be going on there. But getting it out in the open and using I statements in a safe location where Jackie That's important, but maybe it'll be different. It could be
Yeah.
Keep some hope.
It sounds like Jackie's been struggling, but as we know, with, with disorder, if that's genuinely, what would be diagnosable, there's a reason for that, You don't catch that. It's not like monkeypox, you know. For somebody to develop any personality disorders to that extreme. They've been hurt and sadly hurt people, hurt people.
And it's, it's hard to deal with the fact that somebody's hurting you Sounds like, Jackie's doing her best to understand this and does I know that's the reason why she's been gaslighting me, manipulating me I'm willing, hopefully, maybe to forgive her for that
One thing we don't know is Jackie's age.
That's true
I think, if Jackie was a client, this would depend on her age because and, and the thing in between, And that will make a difference. Also, has Jackie got support of her own? Does she have a partner friends, a father, we don't know about him in this equation. So for Jackie to broaden this out to her whole sphere of relationships. Could be very useful. Does she have any brothers and sisters? Are they experiencing the same thing, which they may or may not.
That has been something that's really surprised me in my therapeutic work I had one a very long time ago. Who's his mother would forget his birthday, but remember his sister's Different years, they weren't twins. I mean, I saw your, this a podcast. You don't have a video, but I saw Richard's face when I said that. And it, it was, it was a picture. I mean, it's sort of is it's staggering, but going back to what Richard was Nobody does this by choice.
Nobody sits there and thinks I'm going to be this person. Nobody gaslights by choice. This is
Oh, well, no, it depends what your term as gaslight. I the, origins of gaslighting. Yes. That is through choice. Cause it's just about psychopathic, manipulation and cruelty. If you go back to the origins of gaslighting,
okay. But it's still, you don't choose to be a psychopath.
Ah, good point. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah,
Right. This afternoon I don't have much to do this afternoon. I think I'm going to Gaslight somebody. No, nobody does that. Do they? I don't know. Do they? I hope they don't. I'm not going to, even though I don't have much to do this afternoon and I think
You're certainly not naive in this respect. But yeah, they do. Yeah, they
I am often called naive, so that's okay. They do.
Yeah, they do. Yeah. It's a rare and often when people use the term gas lighting, It It is just, oh, somebody was. They had a defense mechanism. They were fooling themselves and they were lying. That's not gaslighting. Gaslighting is a purely manipulative power struggle. And that could be, that is exactly what Jackie's mum's been doing, And so if somebody does feel the need to gaslight and manipulate and So yeah, that definitely could be going on and it's horrible isn't it.
And Jackie, if that went on in your childhood, I'm so sorry. Good God. Yeah, To forgive somebody for that is hard, but in that forgiveness, And that might take a lot of exploring to do that. Whether that's in therapy or with your own inner therapy, being your own therapist. It's going to take a lot of work. Really is. Almost as much work as by the sound of things. James' wife is gonna need, if she does want to become fitter and healthier, It's really not. And James is struggling with that.
The fact that he wants to click his fingers, wave a magic Because his wife, isn't happy and it's hard to think my wife isn't happy. I'm her husband. Why isn't she happy? What can I do? There's an element of patriarchy there that says happiness is my responsibility, or maybe that's just love.
If that email had come though completely the other way round And you know, If James had been Jemima and wanting to help her husband to lose You know, we want to help the people we love and it is often the hardest. It's the hardest thing to do. And there's a phrase that comes through well, sort of comes from transactional It's about people saying yes, but. They define things in TA is as being specific games. And one is the why don't you? Yes, but game.
The thing with TA games is there's always a switch at the end. So I noticed that Jackie mentioned games, so it'd be interesting to see to it like this, but in terms of James with his wife, he's doing this, Come to the park. Why don't you vacuum the lounge? Which does sound a little bit patriarchal. but we don't know the situation. But why don't you? And she goes, and again, I'm jumping to conclusions because But I would imagine she's saying yes, but I can't do that my knees, well, yes, but.
Whatever, always look out for people who are yes, butting you,
Yeah.
And that is one of the advantages of therapy, in that, even And so when a therapist says, why don't you create a little plan for what They're quite likely to do so much more likely to do so than if said client's
And more importantly, even if they come back for the following then there's something to explore.
That's that's
I wonder what was going on
That's information. So I've often had students, or, you know, relatively new people in the profession. Supervisees who say, oh, they wouldn't do the homework. And I say, great, brilliant.
You got something to say, you got now you got something
Yeah, because then you've got something to explore. If they're doing everything you say and not getting anywhere, There's something else to be exploring. There's always something to explore. But yeah, I think that going back to saying to James about talking to his
And the wooden leg
Oh, yes, good old wooden leg.
And again that came out of TA and Eric Berne. Because he could see that people did play these games that say, well, what'd you Of course, I can't do that exercise. What'd you expect of somebody with knackered knees what do you expect Of course I'm overweight. I'm just what'd you expect, because this is what mums are supposed to look like. I'm the mum shape, now. What do you expect of a mum for example?
And once you notice that you're playing that game, that's when you I see the game I'm playing here and I don't like the direction it's going in. If we changed the direction, we changed the rules, we changed the game Even if the outcome is things hardly improve, fine, they didn't get worse. And they improved a little bit fine, even if they stay the same fine. If your worries were, this is just going to get worse and And he doesn't then great.
I'm thinking about James and his wife. There are probably things that James' wife, isn't that happy about with James. Probably things that she would think it would be better in his life if So by opening up the conversation to let's just, just express Well, that's got to be good hasn't it? It's got to be good.
And normally that would be the domain of couples counseling, where And to hear behind the stories and go, ah, but you hear what he said there. Do you hear what was going on underneath there? Well, no. Well, let's, let's explore that without interruption and without judgment, now But the process is the same. It means learning to be an efficient or effective listener,
There's a technique that they often use in couples counseling, where when they're holding that thing, they can speak and the other person So one minute or five minutes or whatever it is you hold on When your time's done, doesn't have to be that formal. But when that time is done, if that's the way you're doing it, you hand They can then speak. sounds sounds a little bit. Yeah, course it has.
Because it is quite funny, but way of keeping. It does work because it forces people to, I'm not going to I'm not going to say anything cause I'm not allowed. But once that becomes a skill, once that becomes well, this You talk and I listen, not you talk and I'm preparing what I'm Learning to be an effective listener, learning to hold the spoon, hold Whatever it's going to be, I think is, really, really And I think both James and his wife and Jackie and her mum, have got a part to
Just going back to that idea of the holding, the whatever conch? That's an interesting one. You mentioned about learning to listen. One of the key listening skills that we learn as therapists is reflecting Feels really fake,
It seems a bit patronizing
the, but the clients don't perceive it as that. And it can be a very useful skill to learn, for yourself in terms It helps them to feel heard. It also helps you to understand or to say, it seems like you're saying that That's what I feel or they'll no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You've not got that right. I feel this,
yeah.
But it leads to that understanding.
Correct. Yeah. That's why it's so powerful. And so parodied you see any TV show or film that's got a Hm. Just feeding it back. It's never, it's very rarely done well. There are occasions when media gets it right. But it's not usually done properly.
I would agree it's more often done badly than well, but there are brilliant, but I won't name it now because it certainly wouldn't be suitable Shall we say.
Ooer. We'll talk about that off mic.
Yes. It's very, very, very, very X, X, X rated.
I think I know the one, you mean,
It's hilarious. But yeah.
well, speaking of off mic, we've come to a time where we could be here all day talking and nattering about all of this, and we've I hope we've planted a seed. To get people thinking about these sorts of scenarios, whether it's that's involved, or for anybody going through something similar or totally Because there's a lot of cross transferable content I think, in all
Yes.
Right. I guess we better love you and leave you folks. Have another super week. And if you need anything, you know where to find us.
Do send in your questions.
if you need a therapist, you know where to find one of them There are some great folk in there. I definitely recommend you look those up at hypnotherapy.org.uk Anyway, love you and leave you folks. Have a nice week. Take care, everybody.
Bye.